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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.
Where are you getting these numbers from? This whole thread is about morphs. I'm not talking about making an entire skill stamina... is that what you think?
Lava whip has 2 morphs last time I checked, right? You are suggesting one stam morph and one magicka morph.
So I dare you to count again all the magicka choices and all the stam choices a DK has for DPSing, including weapon skill lines but no ultis.
My count:
Magicka 15: whip x 2 - embers - engulfing - Inhale x 2 - stone giant - force shock x2 - WoE x2 - Destro touch x2 - impulse x 2.
Stam 32: Venom claw - noxious - uppercut x2 - crit charge x2 - cleave x 2 - reverse slash x2 - puncture x 2 - low slash x 2 - power bash x 2 - flurry x 2 - twin slashes x 2 - whirlwind x 2 - hidden blade x 2 - snipe x2 - volley x2 - arrow spray x2 - poison arrow x2.
Considering you can have max 2 wpns, the count decreses to ~16 effective choices.
So mDK has 15 feasible option, while stamDK has 16 feasible options.
What do you think about this?
Yes, you are posting pretty much the same thing that I said, with the once exception being that I was using 2H and OH and Shield, so it was 15 DPS options for both, instead of 16 Stamina and 15 Magicka.
If stamina could access all 4 weapon skill lines at once, then yes that would be very unbalanced. But because they can only access 2 weapon skill lines, maximum, then the DPS options are very similar between Magicka and Stamina.
If your argument is that Magicka suffers from lack of weapon options, then I very much agree with you. I would love to see more magicka weapon skill lines implemented into the game.
I'll glad you give a stam option for whip if I get a magicka option for reverse slice in my mDK. I think that's the best solution.
Saddly neither you nor me are running this game =(Edited by Xvorg on May 18, 2017 9:05PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.
Where are you getting these numbers from? This whole thread is about morphs. I'm not talking about making an entire skill stamina... is that what you think?
Lava whip has 2 morphs last time I checked, right? You are suggesting one stam morph and one magicka morph.
So I dare you to count again all the magicka choices and all the stam choices a DK has for DPSing, including weapon skill lines but no ultis.
My count:
Magicka 15: whip x 2 - embers - engulfing - Inhale x 2 - stone giant - force shock x2 - WoE x2 - Destro touch x2 - impulse x 2.
Stam 32: Venom claw - noxious - uppercut x2 - crit charge x2 - cleave x 2 - reverse slash x2 - puncture x 2 - low slash x 2 - power bash x 2 - flurry x 2 - twin slashes x 2 - whirlwind x 2 - hidden blade x 2 - snipe x2 - volley x2 - arrow spray x2 - poison arrow x2.
Considering you can have max 2 wpns, the count decreses to ~16 effective choices.
So mDK has 15 feasible option, while stamDK has 16 feasible options.
What do you think about this?
Yes, you are posting pretty much the same thing that I said, with the once exception being that I was using 2H and OH and Shield, so it was 15 DPS options for both, instead of 16 Stamina and 15 Magicka.
If stamina could access all 4 weapon skill lines at once, then yes that would be very unbalanced. But because they can only access 2 weapon skill lines, maximum, then the DPS options are very similar between Magicka and Stamina.
If your argument is that Magicka suffers from lack of weapon options, then I very much agree with you. I would love to see more magicka weapon skill lines implemented into the game.
I'll glad you give a stam option for whip if I get a magicka option for reverse slice in my mDK. I think that's the best solution.
Saddly neither you nor me are running this game =(
Magicka Reverse Slice - that would be such a cool looking animation! I'm picturing a massive spectral sword appearing out of thin air on the downswing.1 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Counting the number of skills seems a bit disingenuous to say the least. There's a lot more to take into consideration...
Like the DK passives - bonuses for using the magica based skills. Not so much for the two stam based options.
But the real concern is that stam-based options are mainly related to weapon skills, fighter's skills, and Vigor, that are available to all classes. This means that a player ceases to be a stamDK and becomes a dual-wielding stam character. Not much different from any other dual-wielding stam character.
Whereas a magDK is different from other mag characters, even if they all use destro/destro or destro/resto (or maybe destro/dual).
It's the loss of class identity that is the concern.
I saw on the first page an old comment that said it was the players who had driven the split by maxing on one resource at the expense of the other. That's simply not true. In the early days, when we had soft caps, there was the opportunity for hybrid builds, and nobody worried about class skills using magica because that was what magica was for - in a hybrid build using magica for class skills and stamina for weapon skills made perfect sense.
The problem came when caps were removed and skills scaled off the resource they use.
My main was a dual axe-wielding hybrid DK in heavy armour.
After the removal of soft caps that character changed to a high-crit stamDK dual-wielding daggers wearing medium armour, and not using any class skills at all.0 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »Similarly, since you can only equip 2 weapons you only really have a choice of 24 stamina skills.
Wow. You must really limit yourself by putting only stam skills on your toolbar. I have every stam weapon maxed to 50 on my magicka DK, for if I feel like respecing to Stam. So, I have 20 stam weapon skills, avail if I want. They hit like wet noodles, with 5 pts in stam, but It means I can Shield Charge or Puncture when I tank/offtank. How exactly did you come up with 24?.Are you counting Ultis, that use Ultimate?Edited by Darlgon on May 18, 2017 10:04PMPower level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭First, choking talons is not a useless morph -- it's the preferred one for PvE tanks. Both morphs of chains are very different and have their uses and there IS a stam version in the Fighter's Guild line.
Let's turn this around. I'm okay with every class skill having a magicka and stamina morph, even when it means losing an important option. Provided every skill line in bow, dual wield, one handed and 2H has a magicka morph because they become conjured weapons instead.
Does that suit your sense of fairness?0 -
Etchos✭✭✭Well one thing can be said for this thread. Its amusing.
Its like a competition to see who can come up with the most ridiculous way to ruin the game.2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well one thing can be said for this thread. Its amusing.
Its like a competition to see who can come up with the most ridiculous way to ruin the game.
Until you intend to join the discussion with claims that have well supported points, perhaps it would be beneficial to focus your attention elsewhere.1 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭Since so many people are using the DK as an example in this thread, let’s try to group up the ideas into something that might work for discussion and constructive comment. DK is my least used class so please let me know if I missed something or got something wrong. I’m just going to use the Ardent Flame line to prevent being wildly repetitive. I think for balance purposes a lot of skills should offer two magicka choices and two stamina where both morphs are currently magicka. Then mag players don’t lose and stam players get better immersion into the class. Skills that already have 1 stam and 1 mag morph should stay the same.
Ultimate- The standard doesn’t really need to change imo. Using a poison version for stam would make sense but take away from the importance of flame to the line. Then again, the 2 existing stam morphs go poison over flame so I’d be curious to hear what people think about a poison standard morph. If that happened I’d want to see the 2 morphs stay the same and offer two additional versions where poison takes the place of flame.
Lava Whip- Needs to stay a flame ability I think. Too many poison morphs would change what makes this skill line unique too much. Upon morph give the player the option of a stamina or magicka route. Choosing magicka gives you the two morph options as they currently stand. Choosing stamina gives you a stam cost version of Molten Whip and a stam Flame Lash called Defiling Lash where the initial strike does flame damage but targeting an off-balance enemy causes an explosion of fire and poison doing DoT, knocking back enemies, and healing the caster.
Searing Strike- Stays the same.
Fiery Breath- Stays the same.
Fiery Grip- Keep it how it is but either offer a stam version of each morph as well or make one of the morphs stam. More seasoned DKs would have to speak to which should change and/or how.
Inferno- Stays the same. Stam characters needing to use magicka to apply buffs like Major Savagery balances mag characters needing stamina for dodge, block, CC break.
Passives- I personally think the current passives would play nice with the current morphs as well as any suggested stam morphs for this skill line at least since they take into account flame AND poison. I_killed_Vivec mentioned the importance of taking into account passives when creating stam morphs which is a valid point. Unless anyone advocates for a lot of change to passives then maybe they help define which skills get stam morphs. Some passives like Helping Hands would be a good example. This essentially converts magicka into stamina. Having a lot of stamina morphs in the Earthen Heart line could ruin this passive. While it could be argued that Petrify and/or Ash Cloud should have a stamina morph, when taking into account Helping Hands you would go from spending magicka and gaining stamina to essentially getting a reduced cost to all Earthen Heart stamina skills. That wouldn’t be bad but would it be what people want?
Weapon skills- Some have said adding stam skills without offering more mag weapon skills would be unfair. There’s varying opinions on whether or not that argument is vaild however the idea of expanding mag weapons skills itself is worth talking about. From what I’ve seen in this thread and thought of myself I’d be into this:
Destruction staff- As is.
Resto staff- As is. Some of these skills are kinda boring but that’s for another day.
Wand and Orb- This would consist of more defense based weapon attacks like S&B. Could be cool for a mag based tank character.
Conjured Weapons- I think this line could be really cool for enforcing the battle mage/spell sword type character. I think the item should look like an elaborate book and drop as a specific weapon type (i.e conjured bow or conjured daggers) which will unveil when you unsheathe the weapon. I’m thinking something like a quick animation where you tear the book in two and it becomes dual daggers or you pull a sword from its pages. The skills would have to take into account all weapon types that could be used and the passives would work like a combination of destro staff skills and twin blade and blunt (flame does this, frost does that, swords do this, bows do that, etc) .
Alternate for conjured- each weapon skill pertains to a certain weapon type. Conjured weapons don’t drop individually. One skill is a ranged bow AoE, another is a sword and shield defense attack, etc. The ultimate could be a quick succession of attacks using all weapon types. A two handed cleave becomes a dagger whirlwind becomes a shield bash that knocks back an enemy giving you range for a final Take Aim type bow attack
So that’s it, there might be some good ideas in there maybe it’s all terrible I think it at least provides a bit of an example of the constructive ideas we’ve all brought up. The basic concept can be applied to any class. Props to GrumpyDuckling for a good post and Xvorg for questioning everything as it’s important for good discussion.
0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.
I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.
On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.
On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.
For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.
Yup I agree. In solo, and small scale non dueling environments Stamina builds is the clear winning. What that guy is asking is for magicka builds to lose more skills to make stamina GOD Tier'ed like it was in the DB dlc days. Also that guys forgets to let people know that 5/5/2 is exclusively a stamina things. Magicka builds can not have 5/5/2 like stam, nor be able to laugh about CCs and immobs like stamina does.
Yes I plays both playstyles.
I hear your argument, and I agree that there are other variables to consider. If we are going to use those variables for discussion, then I would also like to submit a few, as counterpoints:
- When stamina was "GOD Tier'ed," proc sets could crit for large burst damage numbers, and many players were wearing light/medium armor. Proc sets no longer crit and many players have been using heavy armor (we'll see if that changes in Morrowind).
- Bow + 2H only has access to 5/5/1.
- There are no stamina healing weapons. Stamina only has damage and tanking, while Magicka has tanking (ice), healing (resto), and damage (fire/ice).
- Stamina cannot laugh about shield stacking and non-crit shields like Magicka can.
Stamina also has access to vigor... where as magicka doesn't, they also have shuffle etc....
Stamina doesn't need a healing weapon with vigor and other class healssuch as crit surge, dark deal, Hot's such as bloodthirst etc...
So DK, NB and templar have class heals?
So I'm forced to use dual wield on a stam DK when I can use 2h on a stam sorc with more survivability and effectiveness?Edited by Anti_Virus on May 19, 2017 5:42PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭seedubsrun wrote: »Since so many people are using the DK as an example in this thread, let’s try to group up the ideas into something that might work for discussion and constructive comment. DK is my least used class so please let me know if I missed something or got something wrong. I’m just going to use the Ardent Flame line to prevent being wildly repetitive. I think for balance purposes a lot of skills should offer two magicka choices and two stamina where both morphs are currently magicka. Then mag players don’t lose and stam players get better immersion into the class. Skills that already have 1 stam and 1 mag morph should stay the same.
Ultimate- The standard doesn’t really need to change imo. Using a poison version for stam would make sense but take away from the importance of flame to the line. Then again, the 2 existing stam morphs go poison over flame so I’d be curious to hear what people think about a poison standard morph. If that happened I’d want to see the 2 morphs stay the same and offer two additional versions where poison takes the place of flame.
Lava Whip- Needs to stay a flame ability I think. Too many poison morphs would change what makes this skill line unique too much. Upon morph give the player the option of a stamina or magicka route. Choosing magicka gives you the two morph options as they currently stand. Choosing stamina gives you a stam cost version of Molten Whip and a stam Flame Lash called Defiling Lash where the initial strike does flame damage but targeting an off-balance enemy causes an explosion of fire and poison doing DoT, knocking back enemies, and healing the caster.
Searing Strike- Stays the same.
Fiery Breath- Stays the same.
Fiery Grip- Keep it how it is but either offer a stam version of each morph as well or make one of the morphs stam. More seasoned DKs would have to speak to which should change and/or how.
Inferno- Stays the same. Stam characters needing to use magicka to apply buffs like Major Savagery balances mag characters needing stamina for dodge, block, CC break.
Passives- I personally think the current passives would play nice with the current morphs as well as any suggested stam morphs for this skill line at least since they take into account flame AND poison. I_killed_Vivec mentioned the importance of taking into account passives when creating stam morphs which is a valid point. Unless anyone advocates for a lot of change to passives then maybe they help define which skills get stam morphs. Some passives like Helping Hands would be a good example. This essentially converts magicka into stamina. Having a lot of stamina morphs in the Earthen Heart line could ruin this passive. While it could be argued that Petrify and/or Ash Cloud should have a stamina morph, when taking into account Helping Hands you would go from spending magicka and gaining stamina to essentially getting a reduced cost to all Earthen Heart stamina skills. That wouldn’t be bad but would it be what people want?
Weapon skills- Some have said adding stam skills without offering more mag weapon skills would be unfair. There’s varying opinions on whether or not that argument is vaild however the idea of expanding mag weapons skills itself is worth talking about. From what I’ve seen in this thread and thought of myself I’d be into this:
Destruction staff- As is.
Resto staff- As is. Some of these skills are kinda boring but that’s for another day.
Wand and Orb- This would consist of more defense based weapon attacks like S&B. Could be cool for a mag based tank character.
Conjured Weapons- I think this line could be really cool for enforcing the battle mage/spell sword type character. I think the item should look like an elaborate book and drop as a specific weapon type (i.e conjured bow or conjured daggers) which will unveil when you unsheathe the weapon. I’m thinking something like a quick animation where you tear the book in two and it becomes dual daggers or you pull a sword from its pages. The skills would have to take into account all weapon types that could be used and the passives would work like a combination of destro staff skills and twin blade and blunt (flame does this, frost does that, swords do this, bows do that, etc) .
Alternate for conjured- each weapon skill pertains to a certain weapon type. Conjured weapons don’t drop individually. One skill is a ranged bow AoE, another is a sword and shield defense attack, etc. The ultimate could be a quick succession of attacks using all weapon types. A two handed cleave becomes a dagger whirlwind becomes a shield bash that knocks back an enemy giving you range for a final Take Aim type bow attack
So that’s it, there might be some good ideas in there maybe it’s all terrible I think it at least provides a bit of an example of the constructive ideas we’ve all brought up. The basic concept can be applied to any class. Props to GrumpyDuckling for a good post and Xvorg for questioning everything as it’s important for good discussion.
Well, DK is a great class, but needs a rework in passives. Maybe something about chains, but essentially in passives. DK passives are lackluster. AoE dmg increase in a melee class that mainly runs s/b is something wrong. The only useful ranged skill for stamDK with poison dmg is acid spray. The dmsg increae to poison and burned status is hands down the worst off passive in the game because its a rgn dot that applies little dmg.
But that's another discussion. The thing is (and in this I totaly agree with @GrumpyDuckling) that the stam version of the class doesn't feel as a DK, while the magicka version of the class doesn't feel like a mage. When I started playing this, I was promised I could play anyway I want, and each decision was supported by the designs, so, as @I_killed_Vivec said, there was was a world of options to choice (my DK was a DW/flame staff dunmer). After that, it came the "balance" team that pigeonholed each class into their current forms. They set the rules and now we are forced to follow those rules.
I wish I could play a game in which each morph has a stam and a magicka version, but the idea is far from the set of rules Wrobel gave us after 1.6, so I have to start advocating for something that makes sense, but is far from what I want, to prevent any other change in the wrong direction (such as MW changes or CPs)
Anyway, I do agree it is healthy to have talks like this one, although I feel nobody is paying attention to what we want.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭Yeah they definitely wont even read this let alone do anything with it. It's fun to discuss though at least. Gives me something to do while I'm bored at work1
-
69% of Weapon Skills are Stamina (60) vs. Magicka (27) - Is this Balanced?
And on another note, what on earth is my magblade supposed to do with all the scathing mage maces I keep getting in I.C.P.?
...in all honesty I think things could be improved on both sides. I would actually like to see more stamina morphs on class abilities and vice versa on weapon abilities.0 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭I'd like to add to the argument that magicka classes can still use DW/Sword and shield and benefit tremendously from those, so as for just having 2 weapons to use is incorrect, yes ability wise but sword and shield/DW magicka builds are very strong. Certain skills that do have stamina morphs like power extraction truly don't even belong there due to how useless it is. Many skills should be looked at and adjusted from a morph standpoint. Crystal blast?The Flyers0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd like to add to the argument that magicka classes can still use DW/Sword and shield and benefit tremendously from those, so as for just having 2 weapons to use is incorrect, yes ability wise but sword and shield/DW magicka builds are very strong. Certain skills that do have stamina morphs like power extraction truly don't even belong there due to how useless it is. Many skills should be looked at and adjusted from a morph standpoint. Crystal blast?
But the passives are bad as crap...Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Code2501✭✭✭✭I'd like to add to the argument that magicka classes can still use DW/Sword and shield and benefit tremendously from those, so as for just having 2 weapons to use is incorrect, yes ability wise but sword and shield/DW magicka builds are very strong.
That's like saying Stamina characters can just slot a magicka class buff and benefit greatly from it. Point being?Edited by Code2501 on May 20, 2017 2:17AM0 -
Arenguros✭✭✭I agree to a big part that more skills should have morphs that are interesting for stamina (they don't even have cost stamina) and in general a lot of skills with very similar morphs should be looked into.
But they should probably balance their game first.
Talking from a PvE perspective here.
The current problem with stamina builds is that there are too many good non class options available to everyone, which leads to every class feeling the same.
Players choose the dot/spamable from dw, the dot/aoe from bow, throw in some alliance and fighters guild abilities and you're done. There are 2-3 flex slots you can fill with a class ability, get another dot or buff (or just slot hunter and hidden blade if you want to save on pots).
Now if we just add more stamina morphs to class abilties, these can be stronger or weaker than the non class versions, but both options lead to even more loaded builds.
Instead they should revisit the weapon skills and make them stand out more, so other builds become an option.
An idea:
Bow can have their damage reduced and instead hawk eye buffed. Hawk eye will be changed so it can only be gained when standing at least 15m from an enemy. If done right, both bow/bow and dw/dw builds should be on par with dw/bow, but have a lot more flex slots that can be filled with class skills.
Stam classes should feel as different as mag.
Now we can start making morphs that are interesting to stamina builds and these should not be just the same as the mag variant, but very different.
As different as the morphs to crystal shard where one is a proc and the other is (at least in theory) a strong aoe.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭seedubsrun wrote: »Yeah they definitely wont even read this let alone do anything with it. It's fun to discuss though at least. Gives me something to do while I'm bored at work
I hope they do something with it. I think they recognize that most stamina builds have to use the same damage skills due to lack of options. Even if they just started by adding 3-4 stamina morphs to class damage skills, that would give stamina builds a lot more options.1 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »Yeah they definitely wont even read this let alone do anything with it. It's fun to discuss though at least. Gives me something to do while I'm bored at work
I hope they do something with it. I think they recognize that most stamina builds have to use the same damage skills due to lack of options. Even if they just started by adding 3-4 stamina morphs to class damage skills, that would give stamina builds a lot more options.
As soon as they start putting magcika morphs on 2H, Sw/Sh and Bows.. Oh.. right.. no.. thats not going to happen either.Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »Yeah they definitely wont even read this let alone do anything with it. It's fun to discuss though at least. Gives me something to do while I'm bored at work
I hope they do something with it. I think they recognize that most stamina builds have to use the same damage skills due to lack of options. Even if they just started by adding 3-4 stamina morphs to class damage skills, that would give stamina builds a lot more options.
I hope so too. There's really no downside to it. Only an increased ability to create stam toons unique to their class. Sounds like a no brainer really.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »Yeah they definitely wont even read this let alone do anything with it. It's fun to discuss though at least. Gives me something to do while I'm bored at work
I hope they do something with it. I think they recognize that most stamina builds have to use the same damage skills due to lack of options. Even if they just started by adding 3-4 stamina morphs to class damage skills, that would give stamina builds a lot more options.
As soon as they start putting magcika morphs on 2H, Sw/Sh and Bows.. Oh.. right.. no.. thats not going to happen either.
It would be pretty awesome if they did. Spectral/Bound weapons could easily be justified as it pertains to lore.0 -
charley222✭✭✭✭for sure this game have nothing for warrior
no frenzy
no berserk
no fury
no carnage
no war cry
no battle shout
no barb cyclone
the game have very little bashing animation dk class only have 1 and is Searing Strike yep the ELDER MAGE ONLINE Oo 87% of Class Skills are Magicka , anyway i give up and have anymore faith , for stamina melee after 3 year
btw i try to make some barb ravager and blood reaver but the option this game give me are just not good
my personel opinion eso are a very nice looking game but have the most poor item set and have very poor balance , peace
Edited by charley222 on May 22, 2017 9:18PMthe wall of the covenant1 -
Soleya✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Nightblade
Magicka - 24 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 6 skills (+1 ultimate)
Ironically with the changes to Relentless Focus and Leeching Strikes in today's patch, StamBlade does not have a single magic ability worth casting (in PVE).
At least before today we had reason to have a magicka pool.0 -
jeskah✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.
Where are you getting these numbers from? This whole thread is about morphs. I'm not talking about making an entire skill stamina... is that what you think?
Lava whip has 2 morphs last time I checked, right? You are suggesting one stam morph and one magicka morph.
So I dare you to count again all the magicka choices and all the stam choices a DK has for DPSing, including weapon skill lines but no ultis.
My count:
Magicka 15: whip x 2 - embers - engulfing - Inhale x 2 - stone giant - force shock x2 - WoE x2 - Destro touch x2 - impulse x 2.
Stam 32: Venom claw - noxious - uppercut x2 - crit charge x2 - cleave x 2 - reverse slash x2 - puncture x 2 - low slash x 2 - power bash x 2 - flurry x 2 - twin slashes x 2 - whirlwind x 2 - hidden blade x 2 - snipe x2 - volley x2 - arrow spray x2 - poison arrow x2.
Considering you can have max 2 wpns, the count decreses to ~16 effective choices.
So mDK has 15 feasible option, while stamDK has 16 feasible options.
What do you think about this?
Yes, you are posting pretty much the same thing that I said, with the once exception being that I was using 2H and OH and Shield, so it was 15 DPS options for both, instead of 16 Stamina and 15 Magicka.
If stamina could access all 4 weapon skill lines at once, then yes that would be very unbalanced. But because they can only access 2 weapon skill lines, maximum, then the DPS options are very similar between Magicka and Stamina.
If your argument is that Magicka suffers from lack of weapon options, then I very much agree with you. I would love to see more magicka weapon skill lines implemented into the game.
I'll glad you give a stam option for whip if I get a magicka option for reverse slice in my mDK. I think that's the best solution.
Saddly neither you nor me are running this game =(
Watch what you are wishing for! Okay, no biggie in this (your) case, and theoretically im all for it - i would prefer a second, proper magicka-based weapon skill line, like sword and rune or whatever - however: by the current status, you could use the skill only, if you have a 2h equipped. In your case its no biggie, since you have access to class skills and thus you are able to create a fun and somewhat diverse bar.
But the passives remain restrictive - multiple times the devs nerfed/changed the weapon skill line passives for that.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Nightblade
Magicka - 24 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 6 skills (+1 ultimate)
Ironically with the changes to Relentless Focus and Leeching Strikes in today's patch, StamBlade does not have a single magic ability worth casting (in PVE).
At least before today we had reason to have a magicka pool.
Depending on the PVE content I switch between these magicka skills on my stamina Nightblade:
- Mirage (defense + dodge)
- Reaper's Mark (debuff + massive heal + damage boost after killing enemy)
- Dark Cloak (disappear + avoid trash packs)
- Mass Hysteria (AOE defbuff + CC)
- Shadow Image (debuff + maneuverability)0 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭I'd like to add to the argument that magicka classes can still use DW/Sword and shield and benefit tremendously from those, so as for just having 2 weapons to use is incorrect, yes ability wise but sword and shield/DW magicka builds are very strong. Certain skills that do have stamina morphs like power extraction truly don't even belong there due to how useless it is. Many skills should be looked at and adjusted from a morph standpoint. Crystal blast?
But the passives are bad as crap...
Okay? So why do people use them still? It's effective. @Xvorg You've never used sword shield/DW on a magicka build?I'd like to add to the argument that magicka classes can still use DW/Sword and shield and benefit tremendously from those, so as for just having 2 weapons to use is incorrect, yes ability wise but sword and shield/DW magicka builds are very strong.
That's like saying Stamina characters can just slot a magicka class buff and benefit greatly from it. Point being?
How is that comparable? MagDK/Magplar running sword and shield using all class abilities and you compare that to a stamina character using one ability; igneous/cleanse to benefit from that one skill? An entire weapon that grants survival that only magicka characters benefit from due to all of their class abilities making them more versatile. My point? Can you not read between the lines? 87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) Correct? People in the thread have said that magicka characters only really have 2 weapons to choose from and one of them being a healing one, I'm just saying that they actually have 4 weapons to choose from, from a competitive pov. PVP and PVE(DW magplar is a thing). No, stamina cannot use destro staff/healing staff competitively. @Code2501Edited by FlyLionel on May 23, 2017 4:08PMThe Flyers0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Okay? So why do people use them still? It's effective. @Xvorg You've never used sword shield/DW on a magicka build?
Yup. But lately I've changed S/B for 2H sword. Better stam regen (moar dodge roll) and moar dmg ... crit rush is the best gap closer in the game.
S/B is OK for permablocking, but the nerf to blocking makes it weaker on any mag char. No stam, no block.
DW is plainly bad. Just one passive on mag char. It could be interesting on DoT builds, but DoTs in this game are weak (from PvP PoV)
Finally, I think S/B is not bad on a mag char, but by no way it is good. DW idea that "it is gud" comes under the concept that moar spell dmg = moar dmg, when in reality you put moar dmg by weaving attacks. DW weave is way weaker than any staff weaving... even 2H weaving is better for melee magicka chars.
Another point for s/B DW concept that it is gud has to do with the 5-5-2 config, but 5-5-2 on a magicka char is weaker than on a stam char because of the weapons they use.Edited by Xvorg on May 23, 2017 6:48PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭
Okay? So why do people use them still? It's effective. @Xvorg You've never used sword shield/DW on a magicka build?
Yup. But lately I've changed S/B for 2H sword. Better stam regen (moar dodge roll) and moar dmg ... crit rush is the best gap closer in the game.
S/B is OK for permablocking, but the nerf to blocking makes it weaker on any mag char. No stam, no block.
DW is plainly bad. Just one passive on mag char. It could be interesting on DoT builds, but DoTs in this game are weak (from PvP PoV)
Finally, I think S/B is not bad on a mag char, but by no way it is good. DW idea that "it is gud" comes under the concept that moar spell dmg = moar dmg, when in reality you put moar dmg by weaving attacks. DW weave is way weaker than any staff weaving... even 2H weaving is better for melee magicka chars.
Another point for s/B DW concept that it is gud has to do with the 5-5-2 config, but 5-5-2 on a magicka char is weaker than on a stam char because of the weapons they use.
@Xvorg Okay, you are the only one comparing staff weaving to DW weaving damage and you can continue talking about usefulness all you want but all I'm saying is that they are viable options. Which they are.
Also....Ambush>Crit rushThe Flyers0
