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87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?
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GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.
Then the problem is not that ZoS created a stam or magicka ulti, is that CPs affect the ulti based on the way the char was built and how CPs were distributed.
For example, any dunmer stamDK has the choice to put points into elemental expert and use Ferocious leap instead of Take flight, and the dmg tooltip shouldn't change that much.
Same as mSorcs using DBoS, because it hits harder than any option they could have, even without putting points into mighty.
I do agree that there should be a couple moar stam choices in class skills, but including Ultis in the discussion has nothing to do with
(BTW, at the moment you choose a class, most of those magicka choices are gone).Edited by Xvorg on May 16, 2017 8:00PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.
Then the problem is not that ZoS created a stam or magicka ulti, is that CPs affect the ulti based on the way the char was built and how CPs were distributed.
For example, any dunmer stamDK has the choice to put points into elemental expert and use Ferocious leap instead of Take flight, and the dmg tooltip shouldn't change that much.
Same as mSorcs using DBoS, because it hits harder than any option they could have, even without putting points into mighty.
I do agree that there should be a couple moar stam choices in class skills, but including Ultis in the discussion has nothing to do with
(BTW, at the moment you choose a class, most of those magicka choices are gone).
The ultimates do matter, though. Even if the tooltip "doesn't change that much" depending on a person's build, sometimes those extra numbers matter - especially in tightly contested instances such as champion point enabled PVP campaigns and VMA.
And I think ZOS is aware that the damage type of the ultimates do matter, or else they never would have added poision, physical, and disease damage types into ultimates at all.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.
Then the problem is not that ZoS created a stam or magicka ulti, is that CPs affect the ulti based on the way the char was built and how CPs were distributed.
For example, any dunmer stamDK has the choice to put points into elemental expert and use Ferocious leap instead of Take flight, and the dmg tooltip shouldn't change that much.
Same as mSorcs using DBoS, because it hits harder than any option they could have, even without putting points into mighty.
I do agree that there should be a couple moar stam choices in class skills, but including Ultis in the discussion has nothing to do with
(BTW, at the moment you choose a class, most of those magicka choices are gone).
The ultimates do matter, though. Even if the tooltip "doesn't change that much" depending on a person's build, sometimes those extra numbers matter - especially in tightly contested instances such as champion point enabled PVP campaigns and VMA.
And I think ZOS is aware that the damage type of the ultimates do matter, or else they never would have added poision, physical, and disease damage types into ultimates at all.
Again, the problem is not the dmg the ulti does, the problem is CP distribution. It is supposed that the MOA new star addresses part of that issue by boosting direct dmg (same as Thaum boost DoT dmg) while Ele expert and might will get a slight nerf (so putting points there will noth be worth enough).
I hope that with Morrowind we are able to see moar odd combos, like a StamDK using EoTS (built towards DoT dmg)...Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
jeskah✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.
Then the problem is not that ZoS created a stam or magicka ulti, is that CPs affect the ulti based on the way the char was built and how CPs were distributed.
For example, any dunmer stamDK has the choice to put points into elemental expert and use Ferocious leap instead of Take flight, and the dmg tooltip shouldn't change that much.
Same as mSorcs using DBoS, because it hits harder than any option they could have, even without putting points into mighty.
I do agree that there should be a couple moar stam choices in class skills, but including Ultis in the discussion has nothing to do with
(BTW, at the moment you choose a class, most of those magicka choices are gone).
The ultimates do matter, though. Even if the tooltip "doesn't change that much" depending on a person's build, sometimes those extra numbers matter - especially in tightly contested instances such as champion point enabled PVP campaigns and VMA.
And I think ZOS is aware that the damage type of the ultimates do matter, or else they never would have added poision, physical, and disease damage types into ultimates at all.
Currently, IMHO the ultimate question is solved - well, not so gently hidden actually - because of weapon line ultimates. Maybe not so much in PVP, but i im a mere legionary, so...
0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.
Then the problem is not that ZoS created a stam or magicka ulti, is that CPs affect the ulti based on the way the char was built and how CPs were distributed.
For example, any dunmer stamDK has the choice to put points into elemental expert and use Ferocious leap instead of Take flight, and the dmg tooltip shouldn't change that much.
Same as mSorcs using DBoS, because it hits harder than any option they could have, even without putting points into mighty.
I do agree that there should be a couple moar stam choices in class skills, but including Ultis in the discussion has nothing to do with
(BTW, at the moment you choose a class, most of those magicka choices are gone).
The ultimates do matter, though. Even if the tooltip "doesn't change that much" depending on a person's build, sometimes those extra numbers matter - especially in tightly contested instances such as champion point enabled PVP campaigns and VMA.
And I think ZOS is aware that the damage type of the ultimates do matter, or else they never would have added poision, physical, and disease damage types into ultimates at all.
Again, the problem is not the dmg the ulti does, the problem is CP distribution. It is supposed that the MOA new star addresses part of that issue by boosting direct dmg (same as Thaum boost DoT dmg) while Ele expert and might will get a slight nerf (so putting points there will noth be worth enough).
I hope that with Morrowind we are able to see moar odd combos, like a StamDK using EoTS (built towards DoT dmg)...
Right, I hear you. But because CP distribution does affect ultimates, and I doubt this system is changing any time soon, I think more physical, poison, and disease morphs should be considered. That's all I'm saying. But yes, again, I know what you mean - I just don't think they'll change CP again soon, especially after the Morrowind changes.0 -
Gilliamtherogue✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not sure why they don't just apply the same treatment with Ultimates, to every class skill (leave Weapon, Guild, etc types alone to their current systems). It scales with whatever stats are higher, but retains the unique damage associations. It would open up supreme diversity, with also retracting from the need to dump purely into one or the other CP node type.
Builds would look at what damage types are predominant throughout their kit and spread CP based on that, while also increasing the importance of Physical AND Spell Resistance values, since more people would be doing a mixture of damage types.
"Meta" builds would likely still gravitate to damage scaling types that most make sense with their dominant stat (i.e; If you're Stamina based you'd gravitate to Physical, Poison, Disease damage types) to keep those minor % increases efficient from CP, but would open up the average player's ability to come much closer to those builds, and ultimately give more freedom and fun.Old member of The Order of Mundus, Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. How far we've come!
Have questions? Send me a message on the forums or my other social media. Seeing people learn is my dream and passion.
Guides and other fun videos at https://youtube.com/c/gilliamtherogue2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Gilliamtherogue wrote: »Not sure why they don't just apply the same treatment with Ultimates, to every class skill (leave Weapon, Guild, etc types alone to their current systems). It scales with whatever stats are higher, but retains the unique damage associations. It would open up supreme diversity, with also retracting from the need to dump purely into one or the other CP node type.
Builds would look at what damage types are predominant throughout their kit and spread CP based on that, while also increasing the importance of Physical AND Spell Resistance values, since more people would be doing a mixture of damage types.
"Meta" builds would likely still gravitate to damage scaling types that most make sense with their dominant stat (i.e; If you're Stamina based you'd gravitate to Physical, Poison, Disease damage types) to keep those minor % increases efficient from CP, but would open up the average player's ability to come much closer to those builds, and ultimately give more freedom and fun.
I love the initial idea, but do you think we would run into the problem where some of the hardest hitting builds are also able to heal or shield themselves too well? I'm having nightmare images of an invincible stamsorc running Crit Surge and dropping insane Damage shields on themselves at the same time.2 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.
Then the problem is not that ZoS created a stam or magicka ulti, is that CPs affect the ulti based on the way the char was built and how CPs were distributed.
For example, any dunmer stamDK has the choice to put points into elemental expert and use Ferocious leap instead of Take flight, and the dmg tooltip shouldn't change that much.
Same as mSorcs using DBoS, because it hits harder than any option they could have, even without putting points into mighty.
I do agree that there should be a couple moar stam choices in class skills, but including Ultis in the discussion has nothing to do with
(BTW, at the moment you choose a class, most of those magicka choices are gone).
The ultimates do matter, though. Even if the tooltip "doesn't change that much" depending on a person's build, sometimes those extra numbers matter - especially in tightly contested instances such as champion point enabled PVP campaigns and VMA.
And I think ZOS is aware that the damage type of the ultimates do matter, or else they never would have added poision, physical, and disease damage types into ultimates at all.
Again, the problem is not the dmg the ulti does, the problem is CP distribution. It is supposed that the MOA new star addresses part of that issue by boosting direct dmg (same as Thaum boost DoT dmg) while Ele expert and might will get a slight nerf (so putting points there will noth be worth enough).
I hope that with Morrowind we are able to see moar odd combos, like a StamDK using EoTS (built towards DoT dmg)...
Right, I hear you. But because CP distribution does affect ultimates, and I doubt this system is changing any time soon, I think more physical, poison, and disease morphs should be considered. That's all I'm saying. But yes, again, I know what you mean - I just don't think they'll change CP again soon, especially after the Morrowind changes.
But it is changing. Now puting points into ele expert or mighty is not worth.
Have a look at the tables Asayre published:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4124312/#Comment_4124312
Since Ele expert and mighty have a max 15% dmg increase, getting a 10% extra dmg requires you to put 43 cps, while the same 43 cps boost direct dmg in a 17%, same as thaum.
So it won't be a bad idea to build towards maximizing an ulti, no matter if it's a "stam" or "Mag" oneSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Gilliamtherogue✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Gilliamtherogue wrote: »Not sure why they don't just apply the same treatment with Ultimates, to every class skill (leave Weapon, Guild, etc types alone to their current systems). It scales with whatever stats are higher, but retains the unique damage associations. It would open up supreme diversity, with also retracting from the need to dump purely into one or the other CP node type.
Builds would look at what damage types are predominant throughout their kit and spread CP based on that, while also increasing the importance of Physical AND Spell Resistance values, since more people would be doing a mixture of damage types.
"Meta" builds would likely still gravitate to damage scaling types that most make sense with their dominant stat (i.e; If you're Stamina based you'd gravitate to Physical, Poison, Disease damage types) to keep those minor % increases efficient from CP, but would open up the average player's ability to come much closer to those builds, and ultimately give more freedom and fun.
I love the initial idea, but do you think we would run into the problem where some of the hardest hitting builds are also able to heal or shield themselves too well? I'm having nightmare images of an invincible stamsorc running Crit Surge and dropping insane Damage shields on themselves at the same time.
Keep in mind I said scale with, not also cost whatever is highest. If a Stamina Sorcerer wanted to use Hardened Ward, the ability would scale with Maximum Stamina, but it would still cost Magicka. Dark Deal also costs Magicka, and other support options. If the Sorcerer wanted to run the damage shield, then he would reduce his resource management from losing Dark Deal casts; or have to suffer offensive losses for pumping up points into Max Magicka, or getting more Magicka Regeneration.
It's definitely scary to think of some of the builds gaining access to new skills, but keep in mind there are always operational losses with running abilities.Old member of The Order of Mundus, Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. How far we've come!
Have questions? Send me a message on the forums or my other social media. Seeing people learn is my dream and passion.
Guides and other fun videos at https://youtube.com/c/gilliamtherogue3 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Kaymorolis wrote: »How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?
Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.
No.
The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...
In no champion point instances, correct. Most of the game still uses champion points.
Then the problem is not that ZoS created a stam or magicka ulti, is that CPs affect the ulti based on the way the char was built and how CPs were distributed.
For example, any dunmer stamDK has the choice to put points into elemental expert and use Ferocious leap instead of Take flight, and the dmg tooltip shouldn't change that much.
Same as mSorcs using DBoS, because it hits harder than any option they could have, even without putting points into mighty.
I do agree that there should be a couple moar stam choices in class skills, but including Ultis in the discussion has nothing to do with
(BTW, at the moment you choose a class, most of those magicka choices are gone).
The ultimates do matter, though. Even if the tooltip "doesn't change that much" depending on a person's build, sometimes those extra numbers matter - especially in tightly contested instances such as champion point enabled PVP campaigns and VMA.
And I think ZOS is aware that the damage type of the ultimates do matter, or else they never would have added poision, physical, and disease damage types into ultimates at all.
Again, the problem is not the dmg the ulti does, the problem is CP distribution. It is supposed that the MOA new star addresses part of that issue by boosting direct dmg (same as Thaum boost DoT dmg) while Ele expert and might will get a slight nerf (so putting points there will noth be worth enough).
I hope that with Morrowind we are able to see moar odd combos, like a StamDK using EoTS (built towards DoT dmg)...
Right, I hear you. But because CP distribution does affect ultimates, and I doubt this system is changing any time soon, I think more physical, poison, and disease morphs should be considered. That's all I'm saying. But yes, again, I know what you mean - I just don't think they'll change CP again soon, especially after the Morrowind changes.
But it is changing. Now puting points into ele expert or mighty is not worth.
Have a look at the tables Asayre published:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4124312/#Comment_4124312
Since Ele expert and mighty have a max 15% dmg increase, getting a 10% extra dmg requires you to put 43 cps, while the same 43 cps boost direct dmg in a 17%, same as thaum.
So it won't be a bad idea to build towards maximizing an ulti, no matter if it's a "stam" or "Mag" one
Just because it's changing and is better now than it was before doesn't make it equal. So what if people put less into the star because of diminishing returns? Any % boost because of CP is still a boost to the damage type of the ultimate.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Gilliamtherogue wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Gilliamtherogue wrote: »Not sure why they don't just apply the same treatment with Ultimates, to every class skill (leave Weapon, Guild, etc types alone to their current systems). It scales with whatever stats are higher, but retains the unique damage associations. It would open up supreme diversity, with also retracting from the need to dump purely into one or the other CP node type.
Builds would look at what damage types are predominant throughout their kit and spread CP based on that, while also increasing the importance of Physical AND Spell Resistance values, since more people would be doing a mixture of damage types.
"Meta" builds would likely still gravitate to damage scaling types that most make sense with their dominant stat (i.e; If you're Stamina based you'd gravitate to Physical, Poison, Disease damage types) to keep those minor % increases efficient from CP, but would open up the average player's ability to come much closer to those builds, and ultimately give more freedom and fun.
I love the initial idea, but do you think we would run into the problem where some of the hardest hitting builds are also able to heal or shield themselves too well? I'm having nightmare images of an invincible stamsorc running Crit Surge and dropping insane Damage shields on themselves at the same time.
Keep in mind I said scale with, not also cost whatever is highest. If a Stamina Sorcerer wanted to use Hardened Ward, the ability would scale with Maximum Stamina, but it would still cost Magicka. Dark Deal also costs Magicka, and other support options. If the Sorcerer wanted to run the damage shield, then he would reduce his resource management from losing Dark Deal casts; or have to suffer offensive losses for pumping up points into Max Magicka, or getting more Magicka Regeneration.
It's definitely scary to think of some of the builds gaining access to new skills, but keep in mind there are always operational losses with running abilities.
I see what you're saying, the shield would get costly to spam. I guess the scenario that initially concerns me is that a build capable of multiple dodge rolls (evading all damage) would also get shield coverage (maybe two casts worth) as extra defense during rolling - while Vigor/Rally/Crit Surge or whatever heals they are using are pumping the health bar back up. In a scenario such as this, the execution phase against a solid opponent might get very difficult.0 -
Gilliamtherogue✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Gilliamtherogue wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Gilliamtherogue wrote: »Not sure why they don't just apply the same treatment with Ultimates, to every class skill (leave Weapon, Guild, etc types alone to their current systems). It scales with whatever stats are higher, but retains the unique damage associations. It would open up supreme diversity, with also retracting from the need to dump purely into one or the other CP node type.
Builds would look at what damage types are predominant throughout their kit and spread CP based on that, while also increasing the importance of Physical AND Spell Resistance values, since more people would be doing a mixture of damage types.
"Meta" builds would likely still gravitate to damage scaling types that most make sense with their dominant stat (i.e; If you're Stamina based you'd gravitate to Physical, Poison, Disease damage types) to keep those minor % increases efficient from CP, but would open up the average player's ability to come much closer to those builds, and ultimately give more freedom and fun.
I love the initial idea, but do you think we would run into the problem where some of the hardest hitting builds are also able to heal or shield themselves too well? I'm having nightmare images of an invincible stamsorc running Crit Surge and dropping insane Damage shields on themselves at the same time.
Keep in mind I said scale with, not also cost whatever is highest. If a Stamina Sorcerer wanted to use Hardened Ward, the ability would scale with Maximum Stamina, but it would still cost Magicka. Dark Deal also costs Magicka, and other support options. If the Sorcerer wanted to run the damage shield, then he would reduce his resource management from losing Dark Deal casts; or have to suffer offensive losses for pumping up points into Max Magicka, or getting more Magicka Regeneration.
It's definitely scary to think of some of the builds gaining access to new skills, but keep in mind there are always operational losses with running abilities.
I see what you're saying, the shield would get costly to spam. I guess the scenario that initially concerns me is that a build capable of multiple dodge rolls (evading all damage) would also get shield coverage (maybe two casts worth) as extra defense during rolling - while Vigor/Rally/Crit Surge or whatever heals they are using are pumping the health bar back up. In a scenario such as this, the execution phase against a solid opponent might get very difficult.
I agree that merely injecting this into the game would have a few areas that require balance changing. There are definitely some points in the game that would require reexamination, but to be frank, there already are some. Overhauling the game in this way would surely shake up the builds and how we tackle the game now, and there would definitely need to be some tuning with numbers and other interactions.
Still, all the hard work would pay off with ESO becoming a much more well-rounded environment. Sets we laugh at now would rise in impact, mechanics in PvE and PvP would change to offer more build options, and new checks and balances would arise to help "balance" the game for itself. You can sit and tweak numbers all day, but real balance comes from having a robust system that interacts with itself in form of counters and situational importance.Old member of The Order of Mundus, Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. How far we've come!
Have questions? Send me a message on the forums or my other social media. Seeing people learn is my dream and passion.
Guides and other fun videos at https://youtube.com/c/gilliamtherogue2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Gilliamtherogue wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Gilliamtherogue wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Gilliamtherogue wrote: »Not sure why they don't just apply the same treatment with Ultimates, to every class skill (leave Weapon, Guild, etc types alone to their current systems). It scales with whatever stats are higher, but retains the unique damage associations. It would open up supreme diversity, with also retracting from the need to dump purely into one or the other CP node type.
Builds would look at what damage types are predominant throughout their kit and spread CP based on that, while also increasing the importance of Physical AND Spell Resistance values, since more people would be doing a mixture of damage types.
"Meta" builds would likely still gravitate to damage scaling types that most make sense with their dominant stat (i.e; If you're Stamina based you'd gravitate to Physical, Poison, Disease damage types) to keep those minor % increases efficient from CP, but would open up the average player's ability to come much closer to those builds, and ultimately give more freedom and fun.
I love the initial idea, but do you think we would run into the problem where some of the hardest hitting builds are also able to heal or shield themselves too well? I'm having nightmare images of an invincible stamsorc running Crit Surge and dropping insane Damage shields on themselves at the same time.
Keep in mind I said scale with, not also cost whatever is highest. If a Stamina Sorcerer wanted to use Hardened Ward, the ability would scale with Maximum Stamina, but it would still cost Magicka. Dark Deal also costs Magicka, and other support options. If the Sorcerer wanted to run the damage shield, then he would reduce his resource management from losing Dark Deal casts; or have to suffer offensive losses for pumping up points into Max Magicka, or getting more Magicka Regeneration.
It's definitely scary to think of some of the builds gaining access to new skills, but keep in mind there are always operational losses with running abilities.
I see what you're saying, the shield would get costly to spam. I guess the scenario that initially concerns me is that a build capable of multiple dodge rolls (evading all damage) would also get shield coverage (maybe two casts worth) as extra defense during rolling - while Vigor/Rally/Crit Surge or whatever heals they are using are pumping the health bar back up. In a scenario such as this, the execution phase against a solid opponent might get very difficult.
I agree that merely injecting this into the game would have a few areas that require balance changing. There are definitely some points in the game that would require reexamination, but to be frank, there already are some. Overhauling the game in this way would surely shake up the builds and how we tackle the game now, and there would definitely need to be some tuning with numbers and other interactions.
Still, all the hard work would pay off with ESO becoming a much more well-rounded environment. Sets we laugh at now would rise in impact, mechanics in PvE and PvP would change to offer more build options, and new checks and balances would arise to help "balance" the game for itself. You can sit and tweak numbers all day, but real balance comes from having a robust system that interacts with itself in form of counters and situational importance.
Well said. I like the approach you've laid out. My favorite part of your suggestion, if it were to be implemented, is that I could feel more comfortable about bringing a hybrid build (non-tank) into group play without fear of weighing down my teammates.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »On the topic, id love to see some type of deep breathe changes for a stamina counterpart as its my favourite skill on the magdk (one can only dream).
Same.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
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✭D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »You could also flip it, that stamina builds have tons of magicka skills for utility, but magicka builds have very, very few stamina skills for utility.
Because you use it for dodge roll, block, and break free aka utility …. I don't think I've seen you post one comment EVER thats useful or positive.
Cheer up life aint so bad.
Is he the guy that hates Stam DK?Power Wealth And Influence.1 -
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✭Yes it's balanced because the game never intended to have stamina builds. Once Zos did bring in stamina classes, they let it be known that stamina classes relied on the weapon skill line skills. Boring yes but how it should be seeing as they weren't even a thing at the start of the game.
And I'm a stamDK main.
Your a stam DK main but your Fourm name is "Magic"Edited by Anti_Virus on May 16, 2017 10:43PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
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✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »OP you left out evey weapon class. Skills which are the most common skills used on a stamina build.
My magic toon cannot use weapons, so if you want a change, I want magic cost morphs for weapons.
Soon we will all be hybrids. Idk.
Floki
There are magicka-based weapons in Destruction Staff and Restoration Staff. Also, although there are four stamina-based weapon skill lines, only two of them are accessible to a character because only two different weapons can be equipped at a time - effectively rendering the other two skill lines obsolete when it comes to ability selection.
Also Sword and Shield isn't a dps skill line, and magic builds can use Ice staffs for tanking.
Additionally bow is a terrible weapon so now that leavs just 2 weapons Dual Wield and Two hander
Dw is good in Pve bad in PVP
2h is good in Pvp bad in PVEPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
GriMTriAd✭✭✭A useful side discussion may be weapon magicka morphs. Give magicka players a way out of staff/staff builds.
This is the primary reason I don't play Magicka. Every time I come up with a concept I think I would like I then remember I'm going to use Staff/Staff and it never gets any farther.
As for my opinion on the subject:
I would prefer to see one tree in each class become stamina, one have a mixed set with morphs for both, and one purely magicka. Feel free to push classes toward one side of the other as appropriate for the class. in contrast, there needs to be more weapon variety in magicka, and some weapons could use a couple magicka morphs. Bow (I'm leary to suggest this as I'm running bow/bow for fun and this could ruin it's viability) in particular might be a good fit for Magicka morphs as it keeps them ranged. Two hander is another weapon I would look at for the Battlemage concept at not every Magicka user wants to be (or even really has the option to be) at range.
Also, it doesn't matter where stamina vs. magicka started, this is the way things are now so seriously, why is that a discussion? To that end, tanks can be effective as Hybrid or stamina, Healers are magicka, and dps can go stamina or magicka. That breakdown is largely okay. Build diversity in Stamina sucks currently so it would be nice to see that improved and it looks like it might happen a bit more in 3.0 with the 2h changes.
It's just as easy to conceive class skills that would be stamina based (most of the assassin skill line) as it is to think of weapon skills that are magicka based (enchant weapon, spectral copies of your weapon, teleport strike, on hit effects). As it is, we already have magic arrows (last I checked I pull them out of a quiver of unlimited ammunition) so actually firing a magic arrow (one made of energy) would feel about the same.
As for the "Magicka would never use a Stamina ability" argument... that's a stupid argument, it's grounded in "here and now" thinking. What you should be asking is, "would Magicka ever want to use a stamina ability" and yes, for the exact same reason that stamina characters currently wants to use Magicka abilities. Some of the stamina counterparts should be strong enough to encourage Magicka users to take them. You still have both resource bars so ignoring one completely is dumb and only speaks to the lack of good options on stamina's side. Imagine if you could reserve some of your stamina (a percent) for a toggle that increased your crit or penetration or weapon power and didn't require two slots to use (because your stamina is still reserved while it is toggle on). That still gives magicka users plenty of stamina to roll dodge and block while being much worse on non-resource stable stamina builds by reducing their available pool for all their defense actions as well as their attacks. So, a current lack of good choices doesn't mean there should continue to be a lack of good choices.
Honestly this argument feels like it's more about theme. Some players want to play with characters that are driven by their own physical force and thus prefer stamina. Some players love the idea of moving the cosmos with a thought and tend to play magicka. Some players just want to be a werewolf and are forced to play stamina because of that.
I would have more characters if stamina didn't feel like I was building a slightly different version of my current character with no real room to change my playstyle.
I would play magicka if I didn't have to use a staff.
Both suck, so fix both and quit worrying about what happens to you when the other side gets fixed. Your character will change at the whim of the devs even if they don't do any of this. Also, would you really care if they gutted and rebuilt that skill you aren't currently using? This goes for both sides. If they get rid of stamina 2h and Bow morphs nobody uses to add some Magicka morphs would that be so bad?
_WAter_
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LorDrek✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Most of those are utility skills.
Stamina has 4 weapon skill lines
Magicka has 2 with 1 being a healing one.
I don't see the issue.
No, no, no, only 3 for dps dw, 2h, bow. S&B is tanky.
How many mag char use dw? - boost spell dmg
Stamina 3 mag 2 .0 -
Code2501✭✭✭✭How many stamina skills should there be in the class lines... Zero.
Thats what the game was built for.
That Zos capitulated with loud players and added stamina morphs was a mistake.
If they wanted classes to have stamina based skills they should have made entire skill lines stamina instead of one spell here and one spell there. They should have also added more weapons and spell crafting. None of which we have because they are too busy reeling with band-aid changes to pacify rabid players and spending time on cash grab junk to support their business model which in itself was another backflip.Edited by Code2501 on May 17, 2017 6:13AM0 -
Code2501✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »And 66% of weapon lines are stamina based. Omg the inbalance! Magicka classes get their skills from classes, stamina get their skills from weapons. I don't see an issue. Also, many (most?) class skills are utility in nature. I'm glad that crit surge or volatile armor are magicka based because they give me magicka dumps. Stamina classes have the luxury of using two resource pools for abilities. Magicka classes have to save their precious little stamina for break free/dodge roll/blocking.
I don't think the weapon skill line argument is that strong because a stamina build can only slot two weapon skill lines at a time (same as magicka).
And? You think the number of options for either is hence irelevent? What do you think this topic is about exactly?0 -
Code2501✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Most of those are utility skills.
Stamina has 4 weapon skill lines
Magicka has 2 with 1 being a healing one.
I don't see the issue.
No, no, no, only 3 for dps dw, 2h, bow. S&B is tanky.
How many mag char use dw? - boost spell dmg
Stamina 3 mag 2 .
Your discounting s&b just because its not dps and then counting dw as magicka cause stats rather than skills... lol.
Good luck with getting any one to take you serious.Edited by Code2501 on May 17, 2017 7:00AM0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »And 66% of weapon lines are stamina based. Omg the inbalance! Magicka classes get their skills from classes, stamina get their skills from weapons. I don't see an issue. Also, many (most?) class skills are utility in nature. I'm glad that crit surge or volatile armor are magicka based because they give me magicka dumps. Stamina classes have the luxury of using two resource pools for abilities. Magicka classes have to save their precious little stamina for break free/dodge roll/blocking.
I don't think the weapon skill line argument is that strong because a stamina build can only slot two weapon skill lines at a time (same as magicka).
And? You think the number of options for either is hence irelevent? What do you think this topic is about exactly?
It's not irrelevant, so please do not suggest that I think it is. Did you read the first post of the thread? I clearly state the weapon skill line disparity in the Variables to Consider section.
I believe that the 4 (stamina) to 2 (magicka) weapons skill line is not that strong of an argument, but I do not disregard it as irrelevant.0 -
old_mufasa✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Because it would make it unbalanced.
Your numbers are correctish but you are using them wrong.
You make the incorrect assumption that Magicka morphs only benefit Magicka based characters. Instead of simply saying "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced" you need to look at each skill and ask "who does it benefit. Some Magicka skills (damage skills) will benefit only Magicka characters, some will benefit mostly stam builds and some will be a benefit to both.
Until you do that what you have presented is purely superficial analysis of insufficient data.
Also in less technical terms the choice between mag and stam should mean something. Saying all class skills should be morphable into both Mag and Stam is falling into the "choice does not matter" trap. What is the point of choice if I can make a character do anything regardless? This is on par with saying all classes should access all skills.
Its moronic
I'm going to remove myself from this back and forth with you because I have yet to see a solid argument against considering stamina morphs for the skills listed earlier, and I also dislike your tactic of creating fake quotes. I never said "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced."
Maybe this discussion could be revisited at a later time.
He has made valid arguments to your bias view of the topic...
As have I and many others.. such as you ignoring that ALL the melee weapons are stamina only.. there are no magic morph for any melee weapon in the game...
but hey if you want to keep down this path with blinders on ignoring evidence that contradicts your views.. then its obvious you don't want a dialogue on the subject, instead you just want to push a false narrative no matter what others say.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭old_mufasa wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Because it would make it unbalanced.
Your numbers are correctish but you are using them wrong.
You make the incorrect assumption that Magicka morphs only benefit Magicka based characters. Instead of simply saying "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced" you need to look at each skill and ask "who does it benefit. Some Magicka skills (damage skills) will benefit only Magicka characters, some will benefit mostly stam builds and some will be a benefit to both.
Until you do that what you have presented is purely superficial analysis of insufficient data.
Also in less technical terms the choice between mag and stam should mean something. Saying all class skills should be morphable into both Mag and Stam is falling into the "choice does not matter" trap. What is the point of choice if I can make a character do anything regardless? This is on par with saying all classes should access all skills.
Its moronic
I'm going to remove myself from this back and forth with you because I have yet to see a solid argument against considering stamina morphs for the skills listed earlier, and I also dislike your tactic of creating fake quotes. I never said "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced."
Maybe this discussion could be revisited at a later time.
He has made valid arguments to your bias view of the topic...
As have I and many others.. such as you ignoring that ALL the melee weapons are stamina only.. there are no magic morph for any melee weapon in the game...
but hey if you want to keep down this path with blinders on ignoring evidence that contradicts your views.. then its obvious you don't want a dialogue on the subject, instead you just want to push a false narrative no matter what others say.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I posted this thread speaking specifically to class morphs - though I do list that there are other variables to consider. Certainly, no magic morphs for melee weapons could be included in those variables. Perhaps we disagree on the weight of consideration that they merit regarding class morphs (the topic).
I withdrew from the discussion with the other individual due to the individual creating a fake quote and implying that my views were "moronic." I'd rather not spend my time debating with someone who uses those tactics in a discussion.0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What a pointless thread this turned out to be.
You can't just ignore or say someones response is irrelevant, that doesn't help with a discussion.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
old_mufasa✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »old_mufasa wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Because it would make it unbalanced.
Your numbers are correctish but you are using them wrong.
You make the incorrect assumption that Magicka morphs only benefit Magicka based characters. Instead of simply saying "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced" you need to look at each skill and ask "who does it benefit. Some Magicka skills (damage skills) will benefit only Magicka characters, some will benefit mostly stam builds and some will be a benefit to both.
Until you do that what you have presented is purely superficial analysis of insufficient data.
Also in less technical terms the choice between mag and stam should mean something. Saying all class skills should be morphable into both Mag and Stam is falling into the "choice does not matter" trap. What is the point of choice if I can make a character do anything regardless? This is on par with saying all classes should access all skills.
Its moronic
I'm going to remove myself from this back and forth with you because I have yet to see a solid argument against considering stamina morphs for the skills listed earlier, and I also dislike your tactic of creating fake quotes. I never said "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced."
Maybe this discussion could be revisited at a later time.
He has made valid arguments to your bias view of the topic...
As have I and many others.. such as you ignoring that ALL the melee weapons are stamina only.. there are no magic morph for any melee weapon in the game...
but hey if you want to keep down this path with blinders on ignoring evidence that contradicts your views.. then its obvious you don't want a dialogue on the subject, instead you just want to push a false narrative no matter what others say.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I posted this thread speaking specifically to class morphs - though I do list that there are other variables to consider. Certainly, no magic morphs for melee weapons could be included in those variables. Perhaps we disagree on the weight of consideration that they merit regarding class morphs (the topic).
I withdrew from the discussion with the other individual due to the individual creating a fake quote and implying that my views were "moronic." I'd rather not spend my time debating with someone who uses those tactics in a discussion.
And we said you cant look at just one aspect and balance on that.. you have to take into account weapon morphs and the fact that stamina is used as the primary movement, defensive stat as well. Also other pointed out that many of those "magic" skills are buffing stamina users.. meaning that you use magic to buff stamina.. and there are many more skill that use magic to buff stamina then there are stamina skills that buff magic... just breaking down what skills use magic and what use stamina is in no way evidence of imbalance.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭old_mufasa wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »old_mufasa wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Because it would make it unbalanced.
Your numbers are correctish but you are using them wrong.
You make the incorrect assumption that Magicka morphs only benefit Magicka based characters. Instead of simply saying "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced" you need to look at each skill and ask "who does it benefit. Some Magicka skills (damage skills) will benefit only Magicka characters, some will benefit mostly stam builds and some will be a benefit to both.
Until you do that what you have presented is purely superficial analysis of insufficient data.
Also in less technical terms the choice between mag and stam should mean something. Saying all class skills should be morphable into both Mag and Stam is falling into the "choice does not matter" trap. What is the point of choice if I can make a character do anything regardless? This is on par with saying all classes should access all skills.
Its moronic
I'm going to remove myself from this back and forth with you because I have yet to see a solid argument against considering stamina morphs for the skills listed earlier, and I also dislike your tactic of creating fake quotes. I never said "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced."
Maybe this discussion could be revisited at a later time.
He has made valid arguments to your bias view of the topic...
As have I and many others.. such as you ignoring that ALL the melee weapons are stamina only.. there are no magic morph for any melee weapon in the game...
but hey if you want to keep down this path with blinders on ignoring evidence that contradicts your views.. then its obvious you don't want a dialogue on the subject, instead you just want to push a false narrative no matter what others say.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I posted this thread speaking specifically to class morphs - though I do list that there are other variables to consider. Certainly, no magic morphs for melee weapons could be included in those variables. Perhaps we disagree on the weight of consideration that they merit regarding class morphs (the topic).
I withdrew from the discussion with the other individual due to the individual creating a fake quote and implying that my views were "moronic." I'd rather not spend my time debating with someone who uses those tactics in a discussion.
And we said you cant look at just one aspect and balance on that.. you have to take into account weapon morphs and the fact that stamina is used as the primary movement, defensive stat as well. Also other pointed out that many of those "magic" skills are buffing stamina users.. meaning that you use magic to buff stamina.. and there are many more skill that use magic to buff stamina then there are stamina skills that buff magic... just breaking down what skills use magic and what use stamina is in no way evidence of imbalance.
Again, please read the first post - specifically these two sections:
- Variables to Consider
- Analysis
Both sections recognize that there are more variables than just total number of magicka and stamina skills, including variables that you just listed (stamina as primary movement and defense, and magicka used as buffs)... so I'm struggling to understand what your point is. Read the first post.0 -
Etchos✭✭✭Did you know that break down of cars on our roads is
Red cars 30%
Green Cars 30%
Black Cars 10%
Yellow Cars 30%
This proves that almost a third of the cars on the road are red.
I am aware blue cars exist but to make my point I'm simple going to ignore them.
Everyone has read the first post. Just because you acknowledge the weapon skills exist doesn't mean you are considering the impact they have on the nature of class skills. And when this is mentioned your response is simple "look at my post I mentioned them"
As in the car example once you factor in blue cars all the numbers change.3