Magicka Sorcerors OP !!??? Should the class be reworked? Will streak ever get buffed?

usmcjdking

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.


The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.


I use 10 second magic poisons too. It just doesn't stop the cloak spam lol. I wish I had access to Hurricane tho! Stam sorcs get all the fun stuff, and im going to sit here and listen to people complaining about the cheesiest defensive skill in the game "not working" all the while it works flawlessly until you are AoE spamm'd and zerged. Boo hoo. We all suffer from that. But if you can get distance and actually spam cloak after fearing 3 people at once and snaring them all at the same time, and you still can't get away with all your free major expedition buffs... then lol. "bias"


Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.


You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

I hope you are saying these things because you have played both classes in similar situations this patch. And if you indeed have, teach me how to play mageblade.

Legit LOL'd.

Please Qaevir. Tell us how you do these things because people who play these classes do not experience these amazing side effects.

Tell us more about how Stamplars need sustain and damage buffs. lol

That's easy.

Still lowest PVE DPS.

Still worst class sustain amongst Stam.

Do you have any other questions before I read through your next word salad?

Lord_Hev

KingJ wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.


The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.


I use 10 second magic poisons too. It just doesn't stop the cloak spam lol. I wish I had access to Hurricane tho! Stam sorcs get all the fun stuff, and im going to sit here and listen to people complaining about the cheesiest defensive skill in the game "not working" all the while it works flawlessly until you are AoE spamm'd and zerged. Boo hoo. We all suffer from that. But if you can get distance and actually spam cloak after fearing 3 people at once and snaring them all at the same time, and you still can't get away with all your free major expedition buffs... then lol. "bias"


Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.


You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

Thats a damn lie and you no it gap closers have broken my cloak multiple times in a row.I haven even broke @thankyourat cloak with a ambush before.

Also that's not a mathematical facts its a theory because in reality with how the game currently is that Sorc will escape the fight way more than a mag blade any day of the week. Again I really doubt you popped a detect pot and that a mag blade still cloaked away from you. Its like someone saying a NB in cloak in a stam word hurricane.

"in theory" The ability to completely negate damage and visual targeting > a dash forward that suffers exponential cost increase while leaving the user -susceptible- to single target damage.


The people who complain about Magblades not having good mobility want to have complete 100% immunity to failure on escaping. Is that balanced? The way it is now, yes there are counters to cloak. But in most reasonable situations a Magblade can remain utterly untouchable as long as they don't commit to an engagement. If they do engage, they have various ways at re-positioning to be able to gain the distance necessary to cloak. A sorc on the other hand is completely reliant on their enemies staying at range, and a one direction dash that has a compounding cost increase.

Lord_Hev

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.


The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.


I use 10 second magic poisons too. It just doesn't stop the cloak spam lol. I wish I had access to Hurricane tho! Stam sorcs get all the fun stuff, and im going to sit here and listen to people complaining about the cheesiest defensive skill in the game "not working" all the while it works flawlessly until you are AoE spamm'd and zerged. Boo hoo. We all suffer from that. But if you can get distance and actually spam cloak after fearing 3 people at once and snaring them all at the same time, and you still can't get away with all your free major expedition buffs... then lol. "bias"


Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.


You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

I hope you are saying these things because you have played both classes in similar situations this patch. And if you indeed have, teach me how to play mageblade.

Legit LOL'd.

Please Qaevir. Tell us how you do these things because people who play these classes do not experience these amazing side effects.

Tell us more about how Stamplars need sustain and damage buffs. lol

That's easy.

Still lowest PVE DPS.

Still worst class sustain amongst Stam.

Do you have any other questions before I read through your next word salad?

Nope. You can straight up talk to yourself and pat yourself on the back if you'd like though.

usmcjdking

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.


The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.


I use 10 second magic poisons too. It just doesn't stop the cloak spam lol. I wish I had access to Hurricane tho! Stam sorcs get all the fun stuff, and im going to sit here and listen to people complaining about the cheesiest defensive skill in the game "not working" all the while it works flawlessly until you are AoE spamm'd and zerged. Boo hoo. We all suffer from that. But if you can get distance and actually spam cloak after fearing 3 people at once and snaring them all at the same time, and you still can't get away with all your free major expedition buffs... then lol. "bias"


Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.


You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

I hope you are saying these things because you have played both classes in similar situations this patch. And if you indeed have, teach me how to play mageblade.

Legit LOL'd.

Please Qaevir. Tell us how you do these things because people who play these classes do not experience these amazing side effects.

Tell us more about how Stamplars need sustain and damage buffs. lol

That's easy.

Still lowest PVE DPS.

Still worst class sustain amongst Stam.

Do you have any other questions before I read through your next word salad?

Nope. You can straight up talk to yourself and pat yourself on the back if you'd like though.

Calm down son, behave yourself. We're all friendly here.

Minalan

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Sorcs are already the most mobile class in the game

I legit lol'd. This thread just gets better and better.

There's no denying it. What other class can dash in any direction over and over without a target, and leave a little ball behind them to intercept projectile ccs? What class do you think is more mobile than that?

What class can reset a fight at will with a defensive skill that also completely utterly negates all single-target dmg even if exposed bare with a detect pot, have access to a long distance root that gives major expedition, have a class major evasion that gives major expedition, has a AoE hard CC that goes through block, is instant cast, and applies a snare, and has an instant teleportation skill that also applies minor maim?

What class has a 10m dash that requires no target, a delayed burst ability that can neither be blocked nor dodged, can apply TWO debuffs which execute targets if they fall into execute range for a period of time, has the largest shield in the game which can't be debuffed in any manner, has an aoe field of mines which damage and root enemies who try to fight in melee range, can cast a large aoe ult at range which completely shuts off casting magicka abilities and deals damage for an extended period, all on the class which can condense the most single target burst into 1-2 global cooldowns in the game?

You can make any class sound OP by stating just the positives. Sorc covers the most ground in the shortest amount of time out of all the classes, period.

Careful, Qaevir. You're letting your uninformed bias show.

Minalan wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Sorcs are already the most mobile class in the game

I legit lol'd. This thread just gets better and better.

There's no denying it. What other class can dash in any direction over and over without a target, and leave a little ball behind them to intercept projectile ccs? What class do you think is more mobile than that?

Orc stamina sorcs with Medium armor, a major expedition pot, and a gap closer slotted? I'm sure there's more but that's the first thing that comes to mind.

They'll catch a sorc with their pants down and no Magicka after streaking it all away.

That's still a sorc, and stam would benefit more from streak cost reductions than magicka would.

This thread is about making sorcs able to streak more...so stam sorc is included in all of these discussions, including:

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@Joy_Division it might be abusive as in a mag sorc can harass a group if he just constantly spams streak in and out licks his wounds and rinses and repeats the process I understand that. But that is when that group when being harassed by the same mag sorc should make an effort to snare the sorc root him and gap close him all the more and if that doesn't work then they should send their own sorc to chase him/her down in an effort to implement a unique combat in the game that is accustomed to sorcs only. This will honestly also help people spread out more instead of constantly zerging. And by the way I will be making a thread about mobility as well. I don't just want sorc mobility to be buffed I want all the classes to have a comparable form of being mobile in their unique ways.

Having sorcs be a way to react and potentially chase after the harassing sorc would be cool.

Sorcs are already the most mobile class in the game.

So @Minalan what's your point?

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Stam Sorcs are already the most mobile class in the game

Fix'd

Read the above, and check your bias with Qaevir.

My point?

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Stam Sorcs are already the most mobile class in the game

Fix'd

This is exactly my point. The bathrobe staff sorcs are not nearly as mobile as their stamina cousins.

Minalan

TrueGreenSmoker wrote: »

GET YOUR FILTHY HANDS OF MY MAG SORC SIR! nerf sorc again?? lmao

This is a nerf sorc thread, when it probably should be a 'buff magblade' thread.

As QAM pointed out to me once, who cares if you can tank forever or flee a fight when you can never win any of them?

Lord_Hev

The funny thing is that I'm not even bringing up general performance in combat. I argued -specifically- in regards to mobility, and everyone is on my throat like i'm claiming Magblades are OP or something, lmao.


I have no problem slaughtering all the annoying Magblades I run into. But like, when I got one cloaking my frags while i have them detect potted in order to just get feared and then vanish completely from the area... then... lol pooooor poor Magblade mobility they suffer from. Nerf Sorc mobility!

zyk

How about this?

Magicka NB: better escape mobility.
Magicka Sorc: better combat mobility.

I loved cloak gameplay, but I can't remember the last time I slotted it for something other than travel purposes.. It's not close to being reliable enough and a counter to snares still needs to be slotted. WTB: 3rd bar.

NightbladeMechanics

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.

Complains about cloak while playing a melee class running no gap closer. Also stop pretending that fear creates a ton of distance. Everyone breaks ccs immediately, all stam classes + magplar have purges for the snare, and everyone except mDK has a functioning gap closer.

Advocate fixing chains, Qaev, not nerfing a core mechanic of an already struggling class.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.

Use boundless storm, curse, and streak to break cloak. If a nightblade is using cloak as a primary defensive mechanic, get up in his face and deny it. Works like a charm. See, if you played any nightblades, you'd better understand how to adapt your play styles on other classes to counter them.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.

Not true. Gap closers still snare the nightblade and transport the attacker to his side. If the enemy is using proper detection, which everyone has available, you still have to get way out of melee range before cloaking. Shade gives you one shot at this, but if the enemy applies a heavy snare or has people sitting on your shade in anticipation of the port, you're going to struggle. You would know these things if you'd been in that situation before.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

Targetable, yes. Captured, no. Do you even line of sight, bro? Do you even push streak more than once at a time or use mines or rapids? See, I've actually played both of these classes. Speaking of committed to a fight in melee range, once the numbers get to 1v4+, the sorc has a WAY easier time breaking away and escaping. Below those numbers, it's easier for the nightblade depending on the enemy classes. Sorcs handle being outnumbered better by far.

Sometimes when we get zerged down, we blame our class's inability to escape for us, when really we should blame ourselves for picking poor fights to begin with.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.


The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.


I use 10 second magic poisons too. It just doesn't stop the cloak spam lol. I wish I had access to Hurricane tho! Stam sorcs get all the fun stuff, and im going to sit here and listen to people complaining about the cheesiest defensive skill in the game "not working" all the while it works flawlessly until you are AoE spamm'd and zerged. Boo hoo. We all suffer from that. But if you can get distance and actually spam cloak after fearing 3 people at once and snaring them all at the same time, and you still can't get away with all your free major expedition buffs... then lol. "bias"


Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.


You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

I hope you are saying these things because you have played both classes in similar situations this patch. And if you indeed have, teach me how to play mageblade.

I have played with Magblades in my group, and against Magblades. There comes a point where no matter how unbias you try to be, you will be bias towards the class you play. Hence why this discussion is needed from two different spectrums. But unlike Kena, I don't talk about Magblades the way he talks about sorcs. I will wager his sorc's total played time isn't even past 15 days and that is me being generous with the game calculating time spent in pve grinding.

Then you don't know how mageblade works or understand its issues enough to compare anything to it. Mageblade is perfectly fine with a group covering its weaknesses.

My /played on my sorc is 31 days, and I haven't played it since mid-One Tamriel. Not my main by any means, but a well developed alt. I've led groups on it, dueled, solo 1vXed, bombed, zerged a little, and played pets and dw briefly. I'm not comfortable on pet or dw builds, but I'm perfectly comfortable on destro builds of all kinds and play them similarly to my mageblade.

All I've proposed in this thread is that sorc can already streak a ton, and that I don't support making streak less costly before the CP nerfs next patch. Try playing a sorc build with more than 1k regen, a little stam regen too, and dark conversion, and you'll see just how much you can streak.

NightbladeMechanics

zyk wrote: »

How about this?

Magicka NB: better escape mobility.
Magicka Sorc: better combat mobility.

I loved cloak gameplay, but I can't remember the last time I slotted it for something other than travel purposes.. It's not close to being reliable enough and a counter to snares still needs to be slotted. WTB: 3rd bar.

^ This puts it perfectly.

But sorc still covers the most ground over time in the game. Forum sorcs get off me.

NightbladeMechanics

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I have no problem slaughtering all the annoying Magblades I run into. But like, when I got one cloaking my frags while i have them detect potted in order to just get feared and then vanish completely from the area... then... lol pooooor poor Magblade mobility they suffer from. Nerf Sorc mobility!

I don't think cloak should dodge frags when standing in a detect pot, but if a mageblade escapes a sorc who has him under a detect pot without using shade, that's on you. And if he used shade to los you and run, what are you complaining about? You could escape that 1v1 as a sorc with no problem as well.

Publius_Scipio

Magicka Sorc Is OP confirmed, next on The O'Reilly Factor at 8 pm EST on Fox News. Guests in studio Iryalia and Geraldo Rivera to discuss.

Lord_Hev

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.

Complains about cloak while playing a melee class running no gap closer. Also stop pretending that fear creates a ton of distance. Everyone breaks ccs immediately, all stam classes + magplar have purges for the snare, and everyone except mDK has a functioning gap closer.

Advocate fixing chains, Qaev, not nerfing a core mechanic of an already struggling class.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.

Use boundless storm, curse, and streak to break cloak. If a nightblade is using cloak as a primary defensive mechanic, get up in his face and deny it. Works like a charm. See, if you played any nightblades, you'd better understand how to adapt your play styles on other classes to counter them.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.

Not true. Gap closers still snare the nightblade and transport the attacker to his side. If the enemy is using proper detection, which everyone has available, you still have to get way out of melee range before cloaking. Shade gives you one shot at this, but if the enemy applies a heavy snare or has people sitting on your shade in anticipation of the port, you're going to struggle. You would know these things if you'd been in that situation before.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

Targetable, yes. Captured, no. Do you even line of sight, bro? Do you even push streak more than once at a time or use mines or rapids? See, I've actually played both of these classes. Speaking of committed to a fight in melee range, once the numbers get to 1v4+, the sorc has a WAY easier time breaking away and escaping. Below those numbers, it's easier for the nightblade depending on the enemy classes. Sorcs handle being outnumbered better by far.

Sometimes when we get zerged down, we blame our class's inability to escape for us, when really we should blame ourselves for picking poor fights to begin with.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So many times I have "spammed roots" on a magblade with my Mag DK. They fear > Roll-dodge after the second cloak, then cripple me > cloak > uncloak roughly 30+ meters ahead of me, and then poof to never be seen from again.


The best is when I detect pot with my sorc and line up a frag proc on a Magblade. Only for them to "cloak" the frag even though fully exposed by my detect pot, feared > cripple root with major expedition > and *poof*. I wasn't even aware the fight was forfeited, that NB already a mile away poking at someone else.


I use 10 second magic poisons too. It just doesn't stop the cloak spam lol. I wish I had access to Hurricane tho! Stam sorcs get all the fun stuff, and im going to sit here and listen to people complaining about the cheesiest defensive skill in the game "not working" all the while it works flawlessly until you are AoE spamm'd and zerged. Boo hoo. We all suffer from that. But if you can get distance and actually spam cloak after fearing 3 people at once and snaring them all at the same time, and you still can't get away with all your free major expedition buffs... then lol. "bias"


Did you know cloak stops gap-close spam too? Even with a detect pot up, you can cloak the dmg from crit rush. I wish my streak can shut-down tab target focus and have free re-reposition from a skill that also applies minor maim.


You put the two classes in comparable situations. The Mageblade can guarantee get away while the Magic Sorc is completely vulnerable and target-able. This is not subject opinion. This is cold mathematical fact.

I hope you are saying these things because you have played both classes in similar situations this patch. And if you indeed have, teach me how to play mageblade.

I have played with Magblades in my group, and against Magblades. There comes a point where no matter how unbias you try to be, you will be bias towards the class you play. Hence why this discussion is needed from two different spectrums. But unlike Kena, I don't talk about Magblades the way he talks about sorcs. I will wager his sorc's total played time isn't even past 15 days and that is me being generous with the game calculating time spent in pve grinding.

Then you don't know how mageblade works or understand its issues enough to compare anything to it. Mageblade is perfectly fine with a group covering its weaknesses.

My /played on my sorc is 31 days, and I haven't played it since mid-One Tamriel. Not my main by any means, but a well developed alt. I've led groups on it, dueled, solo 1vXed, bombed, zerged a little, and played pets and dw briefly. I'm not comfortable on pet or dw builds, but I'm perfectly comfortable on destro builds of all kinds and play them similarly to my mageblade.

All I've proposed in this thread is that sorc can already streak a ton, and that I don't support making streak less costly before the CP nerfs next patch. Try playing a sorc build with more than 1k regen, a little stam regen too, and dark conversion, and you'll see just how much you can streak.

People who remember me from the 1.5 and 1.6 days know that I use to rival Ezareth and Xevenex in streak abuse Or rather, Ball of lightning abuse lol. I'm sure @HoloYoitsu remembers these days well, Teargrants was great at teaching pugs of yore to never chase the sorc. I gave all that up when they added the exponential cost increase to Streak in 1.7. So, I ended up going the max damage route. I prefer now to just dispose of my enemies rather then spend the whole day streaking around with no damage. And I've held true to that sentiment all the way to the present day.


I never said our mobility is bad. I disagree with your assessment that Sorcerer has the best mobility. That ended with the exponential cost increase to streak 1 year ago.

zyk wrote: »

How about this?

Magicka NB: better escape mobility.
Magicka Sorc: better combat mobility.

I loved cloak gameplay, but I can't remember the last time I slotted it for something other than travel purposes.. It's not close to being reliable enough and a counter to snares still needs to be slotted. WTB: 3rd bar.

We can both find mutual agreement on this.

HoloYoitsu

Kena, I know you know better than to say that mag sorc has the best mobility in the game. The way you're going on about streak right now is forcing me to do a double take and make sure these post dates don't say "2015".

As a mag sorc, there simply is no catching an Orc stam sorc w/ speed immovable pots & bow back bar if he decides to stop playing ring around the tree and just take off into the horizon. A mag sorc can stay on that for about 5 bolt escapes from max mag, then if you try any further you are just stupid and OOM.

I've tried since One Stamriel more than just about any other sorc I know of to find ways to push sustain to the max to see what I'd be able to do. Hell, I've even tried seducer + lich setups dropping dmg as low as I can bare. None of that will give you the mobility of a stam sorc. The closest you can get is running overload and rapids - which means you lose resto ult, have to deal w/ clunky unresponsive overload toggles, and run the rusk of leaving yourself almost OOS every time you cast rapids (not to mention, you have to use Streak instead of BoL since BoL removes rapids).

Please, explain to me how saying stam sorc surpasses mag sorc mobility is "just my bias"?

NightbladeMechanics

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Kena, I know you know better than to say that mag sorc has the best mobility in the game. The way you're going on about streak right now is forcing me to do a double take and make sure these post dates don't say "2015".

As a mag sorc, there simply is no catching an Orc stam sorc w/ speed immovable pots & bow back bar if he decides to stop playing ring around the tree and just take off into the horizon. A mag sorc can stay on that for about 5 bolt escapes from max mag, then if you try any further you are just stupid and OOM.

I've tried since One Stamriel more than just about any other sorc I know of to find ways to push sustain to the max to see what I'd be able to do. Hell, I've even tried seducer + lich setups dropping dmg as low as I can bare. None of that will give you the mobility of a stam sorc. The closest you can get is running overload and rapids - which means you lose resto ult, have to deal w/ clunky unresponsive overload toggles, and run the rusk of leaving yourself almost OOS every time you cast rapids (not to mention, you have to use Streak instead of BoL since BoL removes rapids).

Please, explain to me how saying stam sorc surpasses mag sorc mobility is "just my bias"?

I said sorc. Orc stam sorc is a sorc. Reducing the cost restrictions on streak will buff stam's mobility even more than magicka sorc because you'll be able to fit more streaks into their smaller magicka pool. Class balance discussions must take both stam and magicka variants into account.

But I still think mag sorc can streak plenty is is more mobile than non-sorc classes. @Lord_Hev I use the word mobility to mean ground covered per unit of time, and ability to move in any given direction at will. Sorc is the best at those. You're talking about what I would call ability to disengage or escape.

Regarding rapids and overload, that's a little trick I learned from Red, and it takes open world magicka sorc to the next level. Losing resto ult does suck, but the freedom he, Leif, and I gain from the overload bar and rapids specifically is our preference. If you're kiting a zerg around, having rapids for speed and snare immunity is a game changer.

I did not know BoL removes rapids... That is...unfortunate... I had just gone and dusted off my sorc tonight after all this sorc talk, and remorphed to BoL since I heard it doesn't suffer from streak bug. Ima have to test this... Kena qq threads incoming. lmao

Lord_Invel

@NightbladeMechanics @Lord_Hev I agree with QAM in this case because of this simple fact . Sorc is given a penalty for being mobile when that is supposed to be the center of the class. ANY AND I MEAN ANY stamina build can just outrun a magicka sorc. Which is why i would say that zos should just increase the base cost of streak to 4 or 5k magicka and give it no penalty to spamming it. HOW is it fair for stam builds to run away completely from fights when mag sorcs try to chase them but when a mag sorc like me gets chased from BRK to Brindle i have to haul my ass mashing 10 different combos of abilities to conserve my resources. Stam builds all they have to do is dodge roll cancel shuffle on their bow bar and poof they are gone lol.

Lord_Hev

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics @Lord_Hev I agree with QAM in this case because of this simple fact . Sorc is given a penalty for being mobile when that is supposed to be the center of the class. ANY AND I MEAN ANY stamina build can just outrun a magicka sorc. Which is why i would say that zos should just increase the base cost of streak to 4 or 5k magicka and give it no penalty to spamming it. HOW is it fair for stam builds to run away completely from fights when mag sorcs try to chase them but when a mag sorc like me gets chased from BRK to Brindle i have to haul my ass mashing 10 different combos of abilities to conserve my resources. Stam builds all they have to do is dodge roll cancel shuffle on their bow bar and poof they are gone lol.

I once saw a heavy armor stam sorc spam Dark Deal 7 times then Streak 4 times in a row. I know my build is yolo af, but I got really salty seeing that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

NightbladeMechanics

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics @Lord_Hev I agree with QAM in this case because of this simple fact . Sorc is given a penalty for being mobile when that is supposed to be the center of the class. ANY AND I MEAN ANY stamina build can just outrun a magicka sorc. Which is why i would say that zos should just increase the base cost of streak to 4 or 5k magicka and give it no penalty to spamming it. HOW is it fair for stam builds to run away completely from fights when mag sorcs try to chase them but when a mag sorc like me gets chased from BRK to Brindle i have to haul my ass mashing 10 different combos of abilities to conserve my resources. Stam builds all they have to do is dodge roll cancel shuffle on their bow bar and poof they are gone lol.

I outrun stam non-sorcs on my mag sorc all day.

And you say you can successfully be chased from BRK to Brindle without the zerg catching you, even if it takes mashing 10 different combos of abilities to conserve resources. That's called using ability synergy and having skill. Wouldn't it be better to ask ZOS to constrain stam mobility if that's the source of what's ticking you off? I've called for adding snare and root removal to Boundless Storm on these forums before. I'm well aware of mag sorcs' problems with lockdown, and I'm all for mobility buffs of certain kinds. However, I think streak is already very strong, and creating a bunch of uncatchable streak-spamming sorcs isn't the issue.

And I don't like stacking cost penalties either, but I still think that with the amount of sustain everybody has these days, they're necessary bandaid fixes for the larger issue. I'd gladly see them gone if sustain were lower.

That said, your rejection of stacking cost penalty on streak is ideological. You think that just because streak is a class-defining ability, it should have an unchanging albeit high cost. I, on the other hand, prefer the current, lower cost on the first couple streaks and a rising, prohibitive cost on consecutive ones. Those preferences are based on opinion, though, not logic. Therefore, this discussion has reached its end.

We agree that streak should not be spammable, but we disagree on how to control it in this high sustain state of the game. Hopefully ZOS will loosen or remove the penalty next patch with the CP changes.

NightbladeMechanics

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics @Lord_Hev I agree with QAM in this case because of this simple fact . Sorc is given a penalty for being mobile when that is supposed to be the center of the class. ANY AND I MEAN ANY stamina build can just outrun a magicka sorc. Which is why i would say that zos should just increase the base cost of streak to 4 or 5k magicka and give it no penalty to spamming it. HOW is it fair for stam builds to run away completely from fights when mag sorcs try to chase them but when a mag sorc like me gets chased from BRK to Brindle i have to haul my ass mashing 10 different combos of abilities to conserve my resources. Stam builds all they have to do is dodge roll cancel shuffle on their bow bar and poof they are gone lol.

I once saw a heavy armor stam sorc spam Dark Deal 7 times then Streak 4 times in a row. I know my build is yolo af, but I got really salty seeing that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wtf? Was it a damagey looking build or a tanky looking build? Tanks can be pretty hybrid.

Lord_Hev

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics @Lord_Hev I agree with QAM in this case because of this simple fact . Sorc is given a penalty for being mobile when that is supposed to be the center of the class. ANY AND I MEAN ANY stamina build can just outrun a magicka sorc. Which is why i would say that zos should just increase the base cost of streak to 4 or 5k magicka and give it no penalty to spamming it. HOW is it fair for stam builds to run away completely from fights when mag sorcs try to chase them but when a mag sorc like me gets chased from BRK to Brindle i have to haul my ass mashing 10 different combos of abilities to conserve my resources. Stam builds all they have to do is dodge roll cancel shuffle on their bow bar and poof they are gone lol.

I once saw a heavy armor stam sorc spam Dark Deal 7 times then Streak 4 times in a row. I know my build is yolo af, but I got really salty seeing that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wtf? Was it a damagey looking build or a tanky looking build? Tanks can be pretty hybrid.

It was 1h shield/bow, but idk lol. His damage wasn't that impressive but it was really annoying to fight.

NightbladeMechanics

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics @Lord_Hev I agree with QAM in this case because of this simple fact . Sorc is given a penalty for being mobile when that is supposed to be the center of the class. ANY AND I MEAN ANY stamina build can just outrun a magicka sorc. Which is why i would say that zos should just increase the base cost of streak to 4 or 5k magicka and give it no penalty to spamming it. HOW is it fair for stam builds to run away completely from fights when mag sorcs try to chase them but when a mag sorc like me gets chased from BRK to Brindle i have to haul my ass mashing 10 different combos of abilities to conserve my resources. Stam builds all they have to do is dodge roll cancel shuffle on their bow bar and poof they are gone lol.

I once saw a heavy armor stam sorc spam Dark Deal 7 times then Streak 4 times in a row. I know my build is yolo af, but I got really salty seeing that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wtf? Was it a damagey looking build or a tanky looking build? Tanks can be pretty hybrid.

It was 1h shield/bow, but idk lol. His damage wasn't that impressive but it was really annoying to fight.

That's all stam sorcs imo. Dark Deal is my least favorite ability in this game. Doesn't charge magicka if it's interrupted, shuffle dodging my bashes makes me nerd rage, and one or two will completely reset all that trouble I went to to stress his resources..

Domander

Hexys wrote: »

The only changes sorcerer need is making curse not stack on an enemy. Another change is to a set that makes sorcerer just to strong which is pirate skeleton.

I've never not been able to (or had a tough time really) kill someone that's using the pirate skeleton set, of course I play mostly on the non-champion point campaign because with champion points there are so many unkillable 1v1 builds.

Mag sorcs wouldn't seem very tough if they changed/removed bastion . They could remove bastion along with shattering blows and it would balance out a bit. Most players aren't going to put points into something that only works against damage shields.

Lord_Invel

@NightbladeMechanics In my experience and testing. Right now i can tell u that i can streak successfully 9 times in a row before running out of resources after i use a potion on the last streak to reduce it by 80 percent cost. And that is only due to the fact that i have 51k magicka i am built for mobility and tactical manouvers. However what i am suggesting is that this pressure on my resource pool is not equivalent to the pressure one would obtain from toppling charg spamming me talon spamming me and root spamming me and stam builds just flat out being faster than a mag sorc would be. Any competent stam build if they had the will can outrun my mag sorc if u are saying that u can catch up to any stam build i would love to see that come to fruition. However i know that scenario will never furnish to be it the way you explained. What im saying is that by increasing the cost of streaks base mag cost it would relieve the pressure off of mag sorc in a slightly balanced risk reward scenario. All im saying is that zos should at least lower the stacking cost increase penalty or remove it and raise the base cost of streak by a significant margin compared to the 2k magicka it costs now lol. Another option is to buff the distance one can streak back to how it used to be. They nerfed its distance down by like i believe it to be 1/4 shorter of the initial ability. This would significantly help with gap close spammers. Another option i would say is place a cost increase penalty on gap close spammers as well. If you are spamming gap closer abilities then u should feel the same punishment a mag sorc recieves for kiting.

Derra

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know man. I have no problems streaking all day long on my sorc. Streak 2-3 times, dark conversion twice and refresh Major Expedition while the cost stack wears off, repeat over and over. With a little extra stam regen in the build, that is entirely sustainable. With line of sight and a rapids here and there, that's enough to kite all but the fastest builds, or mounted people.

I really don´t know about the us server - but i´ve dropped major expedition from all my sorc builds ever since people realized how fast they can mount up with the latest changes to incombat.

If i get chased by more than two people one usually keeps me in combat and the others mount up. There is no more escaping.

Edit: On NB vs sorc. Imo a light armor magblade has the toolkit available to hardcounter a light armor sorc with the exception of pirate skeleton.
But on the other hand if both use pirate the matchup favors the NB again.
Problem is that light armor NB is really not fun to play open world and in duels sorcs can reliably utilize pets which shifts the matchup again.

NightbladeMechanics

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know man. I have no problems streaking all day long on my sorc. Streak 2-3 times, dark conversion twice and refresh Major Expedition while the cost stack wears off, repeat over and over. With a little extra stam regen in the build, that is entirely sustainable. With line of sight and a rapids here and there, that's enough to kite all but the fastest builds, or mounted people.

I really don´t know about the us server - but i´ve dropped major expedition from all my sorc builds ever since people realized how fast they can mount up with the latest changes to incombat.

If i get chased by more than two people one usually keeps me in combat and the others mount up. There is no more escaping.

I adapted by making more invis pots.

ToRelax

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@Joy_Division I appreciate ur reply... that is why I am saying if sorcs are buffed with streak in that they can successfully use it to make distance turn around and burst and rinse and repeat then mag sorcs should give up some survivability because shield stacking has been complained about forever now. So my proposition is that zos should get rid of being able to stack multiple shields at once namely harness and hardened together because that poses a serious problem. And by doing so removing the ability to spam stack shields zos should buff the crap out of streak because that way sorcs will rely on mobility for defense and really be close to their original design of the game. ( A glass canon kiting class)

I understand your reasoning. But your proposal gives sorcerers what is in essence a speed hack, which is abusive and much stronger than losing a single shield. Indeed, Zos nerfed streak long before shield stacking became fashionable.

Atleast from what i know shieldstacking (against magica builds) was a thing already in patch 1.3?

Most of the streak nerfs came after that.

@Derra (just tagging you because of the scope of this thread, not directing this post at you specifically)
I've been stacking Hardened + Harness since I tried out whether it would work as expected at launch (it did, with the exception that all "physical" DoTs restored magicka as well while melee magicka skills did not) until it was nerfed with 1.5, so I just looked it up.
As said, shieldstacking was a thing since launch for anyone being aware of it. I even used a bow partly to line up bursts against non refreshable shields, partly for the speed buff.

The first nerf to Bolt Escape we saw in 1.0.7, prohibiting Sorcs to Bolt Escape with a scroll.
However the first actual combat nerf on Bolt Escape happened in 1.1.4, the second incremental patch after Craglorn. That was the original static 50% cost increase. However, that barely changed anything for me, since I had pretty much unlimited magicka from Harness.
The next nerf after that was the reduction of Streak's AoE cap to 6 in 1.4.3. With 1.6.5 the Disorient was changed into a stun in order to give cc immunity when not broken out of. 2.0.11 removed most flying Sorcs over lake Rumare.
2.1.4 (Imperial City) saw the BoL nerf to 2.5 seconds and the stacking cost instead of reduced regen after casting Bolt Escape.
No more nerfs after that so far. I guess one can at least view the changes in 1.1.4, 1.6.5 and 2.1.4 as nerfs of intended mechanics. And I I only don't like the stacking cost with the last nerf. Now that's for documented changes. If I remember correctly, it was also with Imperial City that we lost our momentum at the end of a Bolt Escape, significantly reducing speed especially when *not* spamming it. It feels horribly clunky to use compared to the previous version. Obviously I don't like that change either.

Derra

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

@Joy_Division I appreciate ur reply... that is why I am saying if sorcs are buffed with streak in that they can successfully use it to make distance turn around and burst and rinse and repeat then mag sorcs should give up some survivability because shield stacking has been complained about forever now. So my proposition is that zos should get rid of being able to stack multiple shields at once namely harness and hardened together because that poses a serious problem. And by doing so removing the ability to spam stack shields zos should buff the crap out of streak because that way sorcs will rely on mobility for defense and really be close to their original design of the game. ( A glass canon kiting class)

I understand your reasoning. But your proposal gives sorcerers what is in essence a speed hack, which is abusive and much stronger than losing a single shield. Indeed, Zos nerfed streak long before shield stacking became fashionable.

Atleast from what i know shieldstacking (against magica builds) was a thing already in patch 1.3?

Most of the streak nerfs came after that.

@Derra (just tagging you because of the scope of this thread, not directing this post at you specifically)
I've been stacking Hardened + Harness since I tried out whether it would work as expected at launch (it did, with the exception that all "physical" DoTs restored magicka as well while melee magicka skills did not) until it was nerfed with 1.5, so I just looked it up.
As said, shieldstacking was a thing since launch for anyone being aware of it. I even used a bow partly to line up bursts against non refreshable shields, partly for the speed buff.

The first nerf to Bolt Escape we saw in 1.0.7, prohibiting Sorcs to Bolt Escape with a scroll.
However the first actual combat nerf on Bolt Escape happened in 1.1.4, the second incremental patch after Craglorn. That was the original static 50% cost increase. However, that barely changed anything for me, since I had pretty much unlimited magicka from Harness.
The next nerf after that was the reduction of Streak's AoE cap to 6 in 1.4.3. With 1.6.5 the Disorient was changed into a stun in order to give cc immunity when not broken out of. 2.0.11 removed most flying Sorcs over lake Rumare.
2.1.4 (Imperial City) saw the BoL nerf to 2.5 seconds and the stacking cost instead of reduced regen after casting Bolt Escape.
No more nerfs after that so far. I guess one can at least view the changes in 1.1.4, 1.6.5 and 2.1.4 as nerfs of intended mechanics. And I I only don't like the stacking cost with the last nerf. Now that's for documented changes. If I remember correctly, it was also with Imperial City that we lost our momentum at the end of a Bolt Escape, significantly reducing speed especially when *not* spamming it. It feels horribly clunky to use compared to the previous version. Obviously I don't like that change either.

I think for me personally the biggest nerf was the loss of momentum after using streak while running.

On the harness part: Harness did not absorb certain melee magica abilities such as whip and concealed weapon up until patch 1.6 (or 1.5) i think. The flame lash exploit is still a relic of this bug as it still ignores dodge and harness/dampen.

NBrookus

.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know man. I have no problems streaking all day long on my sorc. Streak 2-3 times, dark conversion twice and refresh Major Expedition while the cost stack wears off, repeat over and over. With a little extra stam regen in the build, that is entirely sustainable. With line of sight and a rapids here and there, that's enough to kite all but the fastest builds, or mounted people.

I really don´t know about the us server - but i´ve dropped major expedition from all my sorc builds ever since people realized how fast they can mount up with the latest changes to incombat.

If i get chased by more than two people one usually keeps me in combat and the others mount up. There is no more escaping.

I adapted by making more invis pots.

They don't work if you have haunting curse on you or a DoT. Invis/speed pots are great for avoiding a fight, hardly ever work for escaping one.

Publius_Scipio

Why are they called sorcerers and not magicians or wizards?

Irylia

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

It absolutely has relevance to the subject matter for me. If you take people of the same skill and one build is just running through the others then you leave the realm of skill and enter the realm of what ESO allows magicka sorc to do currently.

But like I said, every class can be "op". But I've seen much more effort required to take down magicka sorcs compared to pretty much any of the other classes right now. Sure there are perma block tanks, but their DPS isn't scaring anyone. Magicka sorcs are incinerating other players right now with the burst potential.

Try looking at stamplars vs sorcs.

I actually agree here. Stamplars are even tougher.