no punishment for outposts flipping

Cinbri

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Stop .. Just stop . Don't blame the players that are happy to see ZoS finally making a move in the right direction to stop exploiting . I have never participated in any exploits and neither has a lot of people . Grow up . If you honestly thought giving keeps or outposts to one another was intended game play you are a special kind of ignorant . It's a PVP ZONE .
ZoS has made several posts that even if somethings feel like cheating , don't do it . If you are unsure , don't do it .

If we follow your reasoning, cross-alliance organization of DUELS and DUELLING TOURNAMENTS prior to the One Tamriel update was exploiting, too.
As to the "if you're unsure, don't do it", sorry but this is a game. By default, everything the game lets me do, alone or in arrangement with other players, is OK. I should not be compromising my gaming freedom by having to wonder all the time whether what I'm doing is "OK" or "not OK", just because it's not in the original game design. People are organizing cross-country jumping contests in their home with pieces of FURNITURE which wasn't designed but can be used for that purpose.

If ZOS decides that any behaviour for whatever reason is an "exploit", they should say it clearly. It's not hard.

Cross-alliance duels' main purpose is to either kill all enemy faction players, i.e. "elimination" or to capture any sort of objective and as result kill players of another faction that will try to stop you from doing it. It is what player vs player and what battlegrounds will be.
AP flipping was - ep group kill npc and capture flags while dc/ad group standing 5 meters away and watch, then when ep got AP for capturing it they stand 5 meters away from flags and watch how dc/ad group doing exactly same.
Dumb mode won't help here, it is obvious what is exploiting and what is no. In law it would call "criminal conspiracy", in eso it simply called ap feeding that is against TOS.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cinbri wrote: »

Cross-alliance duels' main purpose is to either kill all enemy faction players, i.e. "elimination" or to capture any sort of objective and as result kill players of another faction that will try to stop you from doing it. It is what player vs player and what battlegrounds will be.

No. The purpose of organized duels prior to One Tamriel was to set up an environment where people would fight 1v1 without interference from any other player of any faction. It was based on everyone's agreement to NOT attack anyone outside of the duel, regardless of color. It was clearly a tweak of the game's design in order to create an alternate gameplay.
The ONLY difference with organized outpost flipping is that it did not bring major AP gains. (although I agree that it is not a minor difference).

If it was SO OBVIOUS that outpost flipping wasn't "fair game", then WHY DID ZOS NOT SAY IT CLEARLY when dozens of players asked ?

olivesforge

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If it was SO OBVIOUS that outpost flipping wasn't "fair game", then WHY DID ZOS NOT SAY IT CLEARLY when dozens of players asked ?

... because it was obvious?

Sanct16

Everyone who did it knew they were exploiting and ZOS should have banned way more people for this. Everyone who got more than 250 attack ticks (3 mil AP) at bleakers during that week should get punished.

anitajoneb17_ESO

olivesforge wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If it was SO OBVIOUS that outpost flipping wasn't "fair game", then WHY DID ZOS NOT SAY IT CLEARLY when dozens of players asked ?

... because it was obvious?

LoL I should have seen this one coming, I admit
But seriously... there were at least 4 threads on the topic with people debating openly about whether it was "ok" or not. Sometimes it would get heated and mods would turn up. On every page, people were asking ZOS to clear up things by making a statement.
Don't you think ZOS should have taken a clear position THEN ? Does it feel fair to step up NOW ?

Cinbri

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Cross-alliance duels' main purpose is to either kill all enemy faction players, i.e. "elimination" or to capture any sort of objective and as result kill players of another faction that will try to stop you from doing it. It is what player vs player and what battlegrounds will be.

No. The purpose of organized duels prior to One Tamriel was to set up an environment where people would fight 1v1 without interference from any other player of any faction. It was based on everyone's agreement to NOT attack anyone outside of the duel, regardless of color. It was clearly a tweak of the game's design in order to create an alternate gameplay.
The ONLY difference with organized outpost flipping is that it did not bring major AP gains. (although I agree that it is not a minor difference).

If it was SO OBVIOUS that outpost flipping wasn't "fair game", then WHY DID ZOS NOT SAY IT CLEARLY when dozens of players asked ?

I referenced to eu tornament events of capture resorce flag or capture keep.
Main reason of 1v1 is to defeat enemy, main reason of flags flipping was to teamup with enemies to get highest ap gains with zero enemy players killed.
Regarding second part you answered by yourself - because it was obvious. And if you was reading zonechat during event you could see that people knew it is illegal but they were not afraid of it coz "zos not punishing for exploiting". People did it not coz they were not aware but because they were not afraid of any disciplinar action.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cinbri wrote: »

Regarding second part you answered by yourself - because it was obvious. And if you was reading zonechat during event you could see that people knew it is illegal but they were not afraid of it coz "zos not punishing for exploiting". People did it not coz they were not aware but because they were not afraid of any disciplinar action.

Honestly, I did it because it was a lot of FUN. Pro-flipping getting organized and fighting the anti-flipping who kept on turning up to stop it. It was a welcome, short-term change in Cyrodiil's otherwise fairly repetitive gameplay. And it's always fun to tweak the game a bit and make a whole crowd react differently from usual. It was pure fun.
In the forum threads, many people were genuinely arguing that it wasn't an exploit, since there was no bug involved. Simply a different usage of legit game mechanics. And they asked ZOS for their opinion. And ZOS said nothing.

Acting now while having said nothing when asked isn't fair imho. I'm not banned (probably because I did it reasonably, just a few hours, and not climbing rank upon rank endlessly), so I don't care much, but I feel for the people who are banned. Because we asked.

danno8

SolidusPrime wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

No PC NA?
Yeah, right.

The coordinated cross-alliance AP farming is not as prolific on PC NA as it is on all the other servers. Today we took action on the worst offenders, none of which were on PC NA.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

The population on PC NA is just amazing!

You could have a 10x AP event and half the population on TF NA would still be at the bridge.

Turelus

danno8 wrote: »

SolidusPrime wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

No PC NA?
Yeah, right.

The coordinated cross-alliance AP farming is not as prolific on PC NA as it is on all the other servers. Today we took action on the worst offenders, none of which were on PC NA.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

The population on PC NA is just amazing!

You could have a 10x AP event and half the population on TF NA would still be at the bridge.

Ah the good old bridge of points.

NBrookus

Turelus wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

So are Zos going to answer if a nightblade using gap closer into a keep is an exploit as I'm fed up of travelling to a keep-and getting killed by hidden Nightblades

The problem they face with that one is the evidence that's how the Nightblade got there and not just staying inside after walls go up.

I've accidentally gap closed through a door on a mag DK. I was not happy to be there. On the other hand, I've hidden inside a keep after a take on multiple classes. If this is happening a lot to @White wabbit maybe he should be checking to see if it's the same players repeating this behavior.

Turelus

NBrookus wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

So are Zos going to answer if a nightblade using gap closer into a keep is an exploit as I'm fed up of travelling to a keep-and getting killed by hidden Nightblades

The problem they face with that one is the evidence that's how the Nightblade got there and not just staying inside after walls go up.

I've accidentally gap closed through a door on a mag DK. I was not happy to be there. On the other hand, I've hidden inside a keep after a take on multiple classes. If this is happening a lot to "White wabbit" maybe he should be checking to see if it's the same players repeating this behavior.

I've gap closed through doors many times, I either let myself die or run up top and jump off and hope that the enemy are mature enough to know I didn't intent it and didn't abuse it.
However when bugs like this happen it's kind of unfair to enforce a bans policy for reports without investigation.

Alomar

Get rekt exploiters, the first positive action by ZOS for pvp players in years imo. Stay classy NA PC, we don't need that nonsense.

Elsonso

Etaniel wrote: »

3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action

This is true. ZOS is fairly disconnected with the players when it comes to behavior in the game. They should have come out right away and said that this was not intended, rather than sitting around watching. This is one of those things where some early communication (for ZOS: https://www.merriam-webster.com) could have saved them, and the players, a lot of time and grief.

For people who want to follow the ToS, one of the scariest parts of this game is that the greyest areas of the ToS are enforced according to how they define the ToS, and they are not always clear on how they define the ToS. ZOS can help with this by getting the word out about exploits, and other ToS violations, as soon as they come to light for the first time.

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS needs to have a clear list of what is and isn't acceptable gameplay in Cyrodiil. Players shouldn't have to dig through forums posts and debate to know what's legal. This is honestly a pinned thread I feel @ZOS_BrianWheeler should have in the Alliance War section.

Yes, and you tagged the person who I think is responsible for doing that sort of thing.

The only problem with such a list is that "anything not on the list is legal" is not really a true statement, and we are back to where we started. ZOS would have to immediately update the list when something new comes up, and that really isn't a strong area for ZOS.

This is why I think that we should know the ToS Enforcement Team Lead. They should be in the forums telling us when something new comes up that players are doing that they should not be doing. They should be answering ToS questions, when they come up. Fifteen minutes writing a comment about how a behavior is against the ToS could save them hours of actually enforcing it.

Turelus

lordrichter wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS needs to have a clear list of what is and isn't acceptable gameplay in Cyrodiil. Players shouldn't have to dig through forums posts and debate to know what's legal. This is honestly a pinned thread I feel ZOS_BrianWheeler should have in the Alliance War section.

Yes, and you tagged the person who I think is responsible for doing that sort of thing.

The only problem with such a list is that "anything not on the list is legal" is not really a true statement, and we are back to where we started. ZOS would have to immediately update the list when something new comes up, and that really isn't a strong area for ZOS.

This is why I think that we should know the ToS Enforcement Team Lead. They should be in the forums telling us when something new comes up that players are doing that they should not be doing. They should be answering ToS questions, when they come up. Fifteen minutes writing a comment about how a behavior is against the ToS could save them hours of actually enforcing it.

Agreed, this is how previous games I have played handled it all.

And sure the list shouldn't be taken as a "not on here it's legal" but at least it's a good starting point to have have somewhere to point to when an issues which is on there comes up.

Sorry to keep banging on about CCP/EVE but here is an example of what happened with one there.
https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/drone-damage-exploit-notification

This information or a link to it was in the new tracker, on the launcher, on the log-in screen and posted on all social media. That's pretty good coverage that people should see it.

It doesn't say how it's done, it asks for information from players to help resolve it faster and it makes clear you'll face action if you abuse it.

That's the kind of thing I could do in 15mins easy, I don't understand why ZOS can't do this unless their security teams are not in contact with the community team.

White wabbit

Turelus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

So are Zos going to answer if a nightblade using gap closer into a keep is an exploit as I'm fed up of travelling to a keep-and getting killed by hidden Nightblades

The problem they face with that one is the evidence that's how the Nightblade got there and not just staying inside after walls go up.

I've accidentally gap closed through a door on a mag DK. I was not happy to be there. On the other hand, I've hidden inside a keep after a take on multiple classes. If this is happening a lot to "White wabbit" maybe he should be checking to see if it's the same players repeating this behavior.

I've gap closed through doors many times, I either let myself die or run up top and jump off and hope that the enemy are mature enough to know I didn't intent it and didn't abuse it.
However when bugs like this happen it's kind of unfair to enforce a bans policy for reports without investigation.

Do it my self buy as the most of the decent players on here do is either get killed or jump out I have no issues with them , it's the small minority that go round killing players while in there that I have the issue , they are the ones sbusing it and they know that they are doing it

danno8

I don't understand how some people thought this type of coordinated keep flipping was OK.

Was it OK when AP was at normal levels? Why would it be OK when AP is at 2X levels?

Did you truly think that no-risk high gain AP rewards, or just hanging around an outpost soaking up massive AP ticks while others flip flags back and forth without trying to eliminate each other was an intended game design?

I think you have to feign ignorance pretty hard to convince people you were unaware that this was exploiting. I personally just don't believe anyone when they say they thought this was OK to do.

danno8

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

olivesforge wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If it was SO OBVIOUS that outpost flipping wasn't "fair game", then WHY DID ZOS NOT SAY IT CLEARLY when dozens of players asked ?

... because it was obvious?

LoL I should have seen this one coming, I admit
But seriously... there were at least 4 threads on the topic with people debating openly about whether it was "ok" or not. Sometimes it would get heated and mods would turn up. On every page, people were asking ZOS to clear up things by making a statement.
Don't you think ZOS should have taken a clear position THEN ? Does it feel fair to step up NOW ?

Could they have? Sure. Did they need to? Not really. It is obviously not intended that opposing factions coordinate with each other in order to maximize AP gains. Period. Everyone knows this.

Does ZoS really need to explain this?

Turelus

danno8 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

olivesforge wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If it was SO OBVIOUS that outpost flipping wasn't "fair game", then WHY DID ZOS NOT SAY IT CLEARLY when dozens of players asked ?

... because it was obvious?

LoL I should have seen this one coming, I admit
But seriously... there were at least 4 threads on the topic with people debating openly about whether it was "ok" or not. Sometimes it would get heated and mods would turn up. On every page, people were asking ZOS to clear up things by making a statement.
Don't you think ZOS should have taken a clear position THEN ? Does it feel fair to step up NOW ?

Could they have? Sure. Did they need to? Not really. It is obviously not intended that opposing factions coordinate with each other in order to maximize AP gains. Period. Everyone knows this.

Does ZoS really need to explain this?

But they should have known this would happen, it happens in every game.
Players choose the path of least resistance to the goal they want. Wasn't Ilum on SWTOR back in the day just a trade for dailies and if you dared actually PvP everyone would rage at you.

Rickter

whats the difference between this outpost flipping and people farming the bridge at Alessia/Sejanus?

I mean, we all know why people go to the brdige, its to farm AP.

sure you had to actually fight to get the ap, but with infinite respawns from whoever controls sejanus or alessia, that "fighting" is more like coordinated bridge flipping.

Sanct16

Rickter wrote: »

whats the difference between this outpost flipping and people farming the bridge at Alessia/Sejanus?

I mean, we all know why people go to the brdige, its to farm AP.

sure you had to actually fight to get the ap, but with infinite respawns from whoever controls sejanus or alessia, that "fighting" is more like coordinated bridge flipping.

The fact that you actually fight against other players is enough of a reason.

technohic

Rickter wrote: »

whats the difference between this outpost flipping and people farming the bridge at Alessia/Sejanus?

I mean, we all know why people go to the brdige, its to farm AP.

sure you had to actually fight to get the ap, but with infinite respawns from whoever controls sejanus or alessia, that "fighting" is more like coordinated bridge flipping.

Its still fighting. Not, flip the flags, step aside and let someone else flip the flag. Its not like at the bridge, people let the other side cross and they get a ton of AP, then they cross and get a ton of ap for just going through the area,

anitajoneb17_ESO

danno8 wrote: »

I don't understand how some people thought this type of coordinated keep flipping was OK.

Was it OK when AP was at normal levels? Why would it be OK when AP is at 2X levels?

Did you truly think that no-risk high gain AP rewards, or just hanging around an outpost soaking up massive AP ticks while others flip flags back and forth without trying to eliminate each other was an intended game design?

I think you have to feign ignorance pretty hard to convince people you were unaware that this was exploiting. I personally just don't believe anyone when they say they thought this was OK to do.

Why did people do coordinated keep flipping ?
1/ For XP
2/ For currency
3/ For ranks/titles/skill points
Is coordinated keep flipping the intended game design ? No.
Is coordinated keep flipping abusive ? Yes, according to ZOS.

Why do people grind goblins in Cracked Wood Cave ?
1/ For XP
2/ For gold
3/ For levels and skill points
Is grinding goblins in Cracked Wood Cave the intended game design ? No.
Is grinding goblins in Cracked Wood Cave abusive ? No, according to everyone.

I hope this parallel makes you understand why many players (including me) genuinely thought it was OK.

Furthermore, don't forget that it was a purely temporary, circumstancial thing related to the double AP event that only lasted a week. Not some flaw deeply rooted into the game's design.

And also : we asked. ZOS said nothing. Silence gives consent.

What I don't understand is why people get mad about other people having obtained Grand Overlord this way. I don't get upset about people obtaining 1000+ champion points or millions of gold in Cracked Wood Cave or any other grind spot.

OrphanHelgen

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

I don't understand how some people thought this type of coordinated keep flipping was OK.

Was it OK when AP was at normal levels? Why would it be OK when AP is at 2X levels?

Did you truly think that no-risk high gain AP rewards, or just hanging around an outpost soaking up massive AP ticks while others flip flags back and forth without trying to eliminate each other was an intended game design?

I think you have to feign ignorance pretty hard to convince people you were unaware that this was exploiting. I personally just don't believe anyone when they say they thought this was OK to do.

Why did people do coordinated keep flipping ?
1/ For XP
2/ For currency
3/ For ranks/titles/skill points
Is coordinated keep flipping the intended game design ? No.
Is coordinated keep flipping abusive ? Yes, according to ZOS.

Why do people grind goblins in Cracked Wood Cave ?
1/ For XP
2/ For gold
3/ For levels and skill points
Is grinding goblins in Cracked Wood Cave the intended game design ? No.
Is grinding goblins in Cracked Wood Cave abusive ? No, according to everyone.

I hope this parallel makes you understand why many players (including me) genuinely thought it was OK.

Furthermore, don't forget that it was a purely temporary, circumstancial thing related to the double AP event that only lasted a week. Not some flaw deeply rooted into the game's design.

And also : we asked. ZOS said nothing. Silenc gives consent.

What I don't understand is why people get mad about other people having obtained Grand Overlord this way. I don't get upset about people obtaining 1000+ champion points in Cracked Wood Cave or any other grind spot.

Grinding goblins are killing npc's and waiting for them to spawn. I'm sure with easy programming, they can either increase spawn timer or reduce the xp gained. About the pvp, I saw some videos where players didnt attack each other at all, standing side by side and just waiting for AP gain. You can't really compare those two tbh. Allthough, I agree that actions should be taken immediately, and I was hoping for hotfix and immediately disable ap gained from outposts until it was proper fixed or something. Same with vmol exploiting, just make the trial disable and do a hotfix. But I still support the late bans and AP remove.

rfennell_ESO

There are very very few cases of exploitation where the exploiter didn't know.

But, once caught... they never ever know. Oh poor victims!

vamp_emily

I don't think a 3 day suspension bother them that much, but when they come back and see all that AP gone I'm sure they will be looking something like this

InvitationNotFound

Well, this situation is a bit confusing...
I didn't participate at the BB mine exploitation or on the bleakers RP parties. The whole thing was a bad game design which i didn't want to participate in. Yet, I don't get a few things here.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom would you please explain:

a) where in the TOS is this behavior forbidden?
b) why is the AP trading at bleakers (or other outposts) considered worse then the bb mine exploitation (there weren't any bans as far as I remember - only removal of AP)? I mean bb mine was an obvious bug and therefore exploitation, whereas this here came very unexpected (not that it would be a bad thing if done right).
c) how do you define worst offenders? In my opinion it is okay to draw a line somewhere and say "they've tested", "they didn't know better" or whatever. Like everyone who gained more than 500k or 1m with such behavior obviously abused it. But seeing some of the people who were seriously abusing this not facing any consequences makes me wonder how your definition of those "worst offenders" is.
d) this means whenever some sort of AP trading (maybe the wrong word as it isn't really a trade) is taking place people are exploiting? I mean as an official ZOS statement. Furthermore, you make it seem that it is okay if you aren't abusing it too much (as you seem to not care if it is below a certain level). Just saying...

Elsonso

Turelus wrote: »

I've gap closed through doors many times, I either let myself die or run up top and jump off and hope that the enemy are mature enough to know I didn't intent it and didn't abuse it.
However when bugs like this happen it's kind of unfair to enforce a bans policy for reports without investigation.

You know, I have to think that if it happens to you accidentally, it is not happening all the time. If you are not doing it all the time, my feeling is that ZOS is not going to care. In the past, they have indicated threshold levels. At a certain level, they determine that this is not just terribly bad luck, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but deliberate. My hope is that they are getting good at determining what is "deliberately exploiting" and what is not.

danno8 wrote: »

Could they have? Sure. Did they need to? Not really. It is obviously not intended that opposing factions coordinate with each other in order to maximize AP gains. Period. Everyone knows this.

Does ZoS really need to explain this?

I feel that ZOS has a responsibility to not only enforce the ToS, but to correct any misinterpretations of the ToS. That means that long debates in the forum over whether something is against the ToS need authoritative communication from ZOS. This is particularly in situations where the debate is over something happening live, on the servers, while the debate is going on.

Players should not be deciding among themselves what is, and is not, legal under the ToS.

No matter how obvious it might be, when the situation is actually happening in the game, it is apparently not obvious enough.

frozywozy

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Its good action was taken but when everyone was begging for an answer on if its allowed or not and totally ignored it. Then 1 month later its like oh yeah remember when you farrmed AP? It was bad take your ban lol.


At least communicate with people at the time its going on.

Politicians : Hey guys, do you mind if we use the money from your taxes to pay our bills at the restaurant?

2 years later, police investigations confirms the acts from the corrupted politicians.

pema

I understand the action, but I find it rather late. when somebody gathers tons of AP in a short time there should be some alarm bell... and off course this event was a big invite to easy AP gathering.

Personally I have a much bigger problem with the use of macro's in PVP. Something that has never been dealt with and irritates me a ton.
If you use macro's as an aid when you have a disability or something then that's fine but the use of them to zerg a person down in the blink of an eye is just madness.

Turelus

pema wrote: »

I understand the action, but I find it rather late. when somebody gathers tons of AP in a short time there should be some alarm bell... and off course this event was a big invite to easy AP gathering.

Personally I have a much bigger problem with the use of macro's in PVP. Something that has never been dealt with and irritates me a ton.
If you use macro's as an aid when you have a disability or something then that's fine but the use of them to zerg a person down in the blink of an eye is just madness.

How do you differentiate the two, also even with a disability this isn't something ZOS would allow.
Generally I would guess it comes down to the fact to check on macro use required someone to actively go and look at server logs to see the timings on the activations, something which I'd imagine ZOS doesn't spend time doing.