Update 13 - Sneak peak notes

ZoM_Head

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

User_Name wrote: »

When you meet a Tremorscale tank player on PS4 at least, chances are he will only spam Pierce Armor and nothing else, and actually have moderate success with that strategy since a lot of players min/max and forget to focus on defensive attributes of their build. A lot of NB's wont even slot Fear and just rely on one-/two-shotting mechanics even as defense, because it works.

You can't seriously say that proc damage set builds takes time to learn to play or that it is somehow skillful. Yes, there are super good players that have taken up proc sets too and are very dangerous, but they'd also be really dangerous if they didn't use these sets.

The proc damage sets are a crutch, simple as, and the discussions on the subject proves it: Some players are trying to make the case that PVE content will be near impossible to complete without crits from proc damage sets, but having played since release when these sets weren't in the game, I can testify that this is absolutely false.

Thank you! This thread reminds me of the vampire ult DK spam builds on launch that could kill raid groups worth of PvP players in seconds. The same sort of people were on the forums making the same sort of arguments. "It'll ruin PvE! Working as intended! I'll quit!" The same people had the same level of "skill" which is why they got stomped after that change was made and they didn't have a cookie cutter build to fall back on anymore.

I suspect half of them are PvP players who don't want their "I win" toys taken away. And even if they're not, they're PvE players crying for the same reason.

We never said "it will be nearly impossible to complete PvE content without crits from proc sets", we are stating that it will effect PvE hard, when you have Skoria dealing 12K base damage and nearly 27K dmg with group buffs, that is incredible.

Same thing with Grothdarr, Llambris and Kraghs sets. Sets that are hardly used in PvP and if they are they are not causing issues, serious ones anyways when compared to the combination of Selene(Or Velindreth)/Widowmaker/Viper setup.

As i stated, there is a very specific combo for PvP that needs a look at, why should all proc sets, PvE and PvP take a hit because of this specific combo? In my opinion it is not a valid solution at all. Trails, Dungeons, vDSA vMSA, and generally all PvE magicka builds will suffer the most from this (some stamina PvE builds as well but not as much as Magicka Builds).

User_Name

Well if you take a step back and consider what you are writing for a moment, couldn't it be that maybe you have come to rely a bit too much on 27K Skoria hits, if it truly makes such a difference for you?

I'm not trying to be smug, but from most of what I am reading, that is what it points to.

What if end-game "difficult" PVE content is actually meant to be quite challenging? What if this is in fact a PVE-fix more than a PVP-fix?

Crom_CCCXVI

Looking forward to combat going back to being about the abilities, and not all the extra junk that happens after a strike.

Thank You.

SunfireKnight86

ZoM_Head wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

User_Name wrote: »

When you meet a Tremorscale tank player on PS4 at least, chances are he will only spam Pierce Armor and nothing else, and actually have moderate success with that strategy since a lot of players min/max and forget to focus on defensive attributes of their build. A lot of NB's wont even slot Fear and just rely on one-/two-shotting mechanics even as defense, because it works.

You can't seriously say that proc damage set builds takes time to learn to play or that it is somehow skillful. Yes, there are super good players that have taken up proc sets too and are very dangerous, but they'd also be really dangerous if they didn't use these sets.

The proc damage sets are a crutch, simple as, and the discussions on the subject proves it: Some players are trying to make the case that PVE content will be near impossible to complete without crits from proc damage sets, but having played since release when these sets weren't in the game, I can testify that this is absolutely false.

Thank you! This thread reminds me of the vampire ult DK spam builds on launch that could kill raid groups worth of PvP players in seconds. The same sort of people were on the forums making the same sort of arguments. "It'll ruin PvE! Working as intended! I'll quit!" The same people had the same level of "skill" which is why they got stomped after that change was made and they didn't have a cookie cutter build to fall back on anymore.

I suspect half of them are PvP players who don't want their "I win" toys taken away. And even if they're not, they're PvE players crying for the same reason.

We never said "it will be nearly impossible to complete PvE content without crits from proc sets", we are stating that it will effect PvE hard, when you have Skoria dealing 12K base damage and nearly 27K dmg with group buffs, that is incredible.

Same thing with Grothdarr, Llambris and Kraghs sets. Sets that are hardly used in PvP and if they are they are not causing issues, serious ones anyways when compared to the combination of Selene(Or Velindreth)/Widowmaker/Viper setup.

As i stated, there is a very specific combo for PvP that needs a look at, why should all proc sets, PvE and PvP take a hit because of this specific combo? In my opinion it is not a valid solution at all. Trails, Dungeons, vDSA vMSA, and generally all PvE magicka builds will suffer the most from this (some stamina PvE builds as well but not as much as Magicka Builds).

So, in summary, your "I win" button is being taken away. Exactly like I just said. By your own admission an insane amount of damage is coming from one source. A source so common that it's the meta and everyone and their mother is running it. But that's "working as intended" to you people. Steamrolling content is "working as intended". lol

The_Lex

Context: I do a lot of PvE and PvP. Regarding the impact in PvE, I'm actually quite interested. It gets seriously boring ignoring the mechanics of virtually every bit of PvE content. Speed run achievements are meaningless these days as any group with decent gear and a basic working knowledge of their own class can get these achievements. IMO, achievments should be difficult to obtain and something to strive for, not something you get by default because the power creep is too great.

Foxic

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

User_Name wrote: »

When you meet a Tremorscale tank player on PS4 at least, chances are he will only spam Pierce Armor and nothing else, and actually have moderate success with that strategy since a lot of players min/max and forget to focus on defensive attributes of their build. A lot of NB's wont even slot Fear and just rely on one-/two-shotting mechanics even as defense, because it works.

You can't seriously say that proc damage set builds takes time to learn to play or that it is somehow skillful. Yes, there are super good players that have taken up proc sets too and are very dangerous, but they'd also be really dangerous if they didn't use these sets.

The proc damage sets are a crutch, simple as, and the discussions on the subject proves it: Some players are trying to make the case that PVE content will be near impossible to complete without crits from proc damage sets, but having played since release when these sets weren't in the game, I can testify that this is absolutely false.

Thank you! This thread reminds me of the vampire ult DK spam builds on launch that could kill raid groups worth of PvP players in seconds. The same sort of people were on the forums making the same sort of arguments. "It'll ruin PvE! Working as intended! I'll quit!" The same people had the same level of "skill" which is why they got stomped after that change was made and they didn't have a cookie cutter build to fall back on anymore.

I suspect half of them are PvP players who don't want their "I win" toys taken away. And even if they're not, they're PvE players crying for the same reason.

We never said "it will be nearly impossible to complete PvE content without crits from proc sets", we are stating that it will effect PvE hard, when you have Skoria dealing 12K base damage and nearly 27K dmg with group buffs, that is incredible.

Same thing with Grothdarr, Llambris and Kraghs sets. Sets that are hardly used in PvP and if they are they are not causing issues, serious ones anyways when compared to the combination of Selene(Or Velindreth)/Widowmaker/Viper setup.

As i stated, there is a very specific combo for PvP that needs a look at, why should all proc sets, PvE and PvP take a hit because of this specific combo? In my opinion it is not a valid solution at all. Trails, Dungeons, vDSA vMSA, and generally all PvE magicka builds will suffer the most from this (some stamina PvE builds as well but not as much as Magicka Builds).

So, in summary, your "I win" button is being taken away. Exactly like I just said. By your own admission an insane amount of damage is coming from one source. A source so common that it's the meta and everyone and their mother is running it. But that's "working as intended" to you people. Steamrolling content is "working as intended". lol

I can't believe people are defending this lazy blanket Nerf. 90% of the proc sets in the game are utter trash and they're all being nerfed because a few are over performing. Most of them aren't worth running now over pure stat boosting so next update you may as well delete them from the game.

http://i.imgur.com/eNVkonj.png this is my most recent storm atro parse. Please tell me how ilambris is an "I win button". Obviously we don't know what else is in store, but if this change goes live ilambris and grothdar will only be used for aoe and none of the other monster helms will see any play. That's great balance.

Edit: I even agree ilambris and groth are over performing. But I would like someone who is blindly defending zos to explain to me how nerfing nerieneth (which is already straight trash), because of two over performing sets is fair.

Ch4mpTW

The_Patriarch wrote: »

Context: I do a lot of PvE and PvP. Regarding the impact in PvE, I'm actually quite interested. It gets seriously boring ignoring the mechanics of virtually every bit of PvE content. Speed run achievements are meaningless these days as any group with decent gear and a basic working knowledge of their own class can get these achievements. IMO, achievments should be difficult to obtain and something to strive for, not something you get by default because the power creep is too great.

While for the most part I agree, there is of course the outliers here and there (e.g. Dromathra Destroyer, Flawless Conqueror, etc.). And those definitely take skill to obtain (for the most part). With just a tad bit of luck/RNG.

The_Lex

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

The_Lex

I could be looking at this the wrong way, but these forums have been griping about the power creep in this game for sooo long. And they're right for doing so. I'm not saying that it's the best (or even mildly good) way of handling it, but couldn't this be ZOS' way of trying to address this issue?

SunfireKnight86

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

User_Name wrote: »

When you meet a Tremorscale tank player on PS4 at least, chances are he will only spam Pierce Armor and nothing else, and actually have moderate success with that strategy since a lot of players min/max and forget to focus on defensive attributes of their build. A lot of NB's wont even slot Fear and just rely on one-/two-shotting mechanics even as defense, because it works.

You can't seriously say that proc damage set builds takes time to learn to play or that it is somehow skillful. Yes, there are super good players that have taken up proc sets too and are very dangerous, but they'd also be really dangerous if they didn't use these sets.

The proc damage sets are a crutch, simple as, and the discussions on the subject proves it: Some players are trying to make the case that PVE content will be near impossible to complete without crits from proc damage sets, but having played since release when these sets weren't in the game, I can testify that this is absolutely false.

Thank you! This thread reminds me of the vampire ult DK spam builds on launch that could kill raid groups worth of PvP players in seconds. The same sort of people were on the forums making the same sort of arguments. "It'll ruin PvE! Working as intended! I'll quit!" The same people had the same level of "skill" which is why they got stomped after that change was made and they didn't have a cookie cutter build to fall back on anymore.

I suspect half of them are PvP players who don't want their "I win" toys taken away. And even if they're not, they're PvE players crying for the same reason.

We never said "it will be nearly impossible to complete PvE content without crits from proc sets", we are stating that it will effect PvE hard, when you have Skoria dealing 12K base damage and nearly 27K dmg with group buffs, that is incredible.

Same thing with Grothdarr, Llambris and Kraghs sets. Sets that are hardly used in PvP and if they are they are not causing issues, serious ones anyways when compared to the combination of Selene(Or Velindreth)/Widowmaker/Viper setup.

As i stated, there is a very specific combo for PvP that needs a look at, why should all proc sets, PvE and PvP take a hit because of this specific combo? In my opinion it is not a valid solution at all. Trails, Dungeons, vDSA vMSA, and generally all PvE magicka builds will suffer the most from this (some stamina PvE builds as well but not as much as Magicka Builds).

So, in summary, your "I win" button is being taken away. Exactly like I just said. By your own admission an insane amount of damage is coming from one source. A source so common that it's the meta and everyone and their mother is running it. But that's "working as intended" to you people. Steamrolling content is "working as intended". lol

I can't believe people are defending this lazy blanket Nerf. 90% of the proc sets in the game are utter trash and they're all being nerfed because a few are over performing. Most of them aren't worth running now over pure stat boosting so next update you may as well delete them from the game.

http://i.imgur.com/eNVkonj.png this is my most recent storm atro parse. Please tell me how ilambris is an "I win button". Obviously we don't know what else is in store, but if this change goes live ilambris and grothdar will only be used for aoe and none of the other monster helms will see any play. That's great balance.

Edit: I even agree ilambris and groth are over performing. But I would like someone who is blindly defending zos to explain to me how nerfing nerieneth (which is already straight trash), because of two over performing sets is fair.

lol @ fair

Do we need to have the "Fair is how you describe weather and not anything else" talk? I'm assuming you're not my child, but I'm willing to help you out anyway.

Foxic

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

The_Lex

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

If people use any subpar set for purely aesthetic purposes, then they shouldn't complain when their DPS output is subpar.

Players will adapt; it's what we do.

SunfireKnight86

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

Paneross

WeerW3ir wrote: »

For once in the life #ZOS please listen to the PVE players and leave us alone in peace. We dont need the PVP changes... PVP ers do but we not. We already losed too much thanks to keep alive the laggy pvp...

Stop saying we. Because it's not true. Plenty of PvE players wants this and or don't care.

EldritchPenguin

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

It's a change in mechanic explicitly intended to make said mechanic weaker. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a nerf.

SunfireKnight86

Paneross wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

For once in the life #ZOS please listen to the PVE players and leave us alone in peace. We dont need the PVP changes... PVP ers do but we not. We already losed too much thanks to keep alive the laggy pvp...

Stop saying we. Because it's not true. Plenty of PvE players wants this and or don't care.

Agreed. We PvE players don't care.

See how annoying it is when everyone decides to speak for you?

rfennell_ESO

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

[

Probably the best all around solution to proc sets.

The only further along that route is their calculation of damage not being based on weap/spell dmg.

A real problem with proc sets is that they create damage potential for non damage based builds. ie the stamina stacked heavy armor builds using 1h and shield that are reliant on procs for nearly all their damage. I only mention it because these "builds" do not carry high crit% and won't give much a thought or care about procs not critting.

SunfireKnight86

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

It's a change in mechanic explicitly intended to make said mechanic weaker. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a nerf.

Let's assume 100 is base damage. That's the damage the devs have decided they want the players at to down content at the time they want the players to down it. Good builds and good players can get up to 120. Bad players down to 80.

They introduce proc sets. Lo! Someone discovers that proc sets stacking crit is a very easy way to push past 100, past 120, and land all the way at 140.

ZOS changing it isn't a "nerf", which is just a meaningless buzz term at this point in online gaming. (Right up there with "power creep") "Nerf" is dog whistle for "thing I don't like". They're altering the mechanics because it's giving power out of line with what's needed and what's acceptable, and it's causing a shift where the only real meta is proc stacking in both PvE and PvP.

It's broken. It's being fixed. I, and a lot of other people, are happy with it.

Foxic

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

It's a change in mechanic explicitly intended to make said mechanic weaker. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a nerf.

Let's assume 100 is base damage. That's the damage the devs have decided they want the players at to down content at the time they want the players to down it. Good builds and good players can get up to 120. Bad players down to 80.

They introduce proc sets. Lo! Someone discovers that proc sets stacking crit is a very easy way to push past 100, past 120, and land all the way at 140.

ZOS changing it isn't a "nerf", which is just a meaningless buzz term at this point in online gaming. (Right up there with "power creep") "Nerf" is dog whistle for "thing I don't like". They're altering the mechanics because it's giving power out of line with what's needed and what's acceptable, and it's causing a shift where the only real meta is proc stacking in both PvE and PvP.

It's broken. It's being fixed. I, and a lot of other people, are happy with it.

Sorry, I didn't realise using a single monster set is proc stacking. I guess I'm a proctato

SunfireKnight86

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

It's a change in mechanic explicitly intended to make said mechanic weaker. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a nerf.

Let's assume 100 is base damage. That's the damage the devs have decided they want the players at to down content at the time they want the players to down it. Good builds and good players can get up to 120. Bad players down to 80.

They introduce proc sets. Lo! Someone discovers that proc sets stacking crit is a very easy way to push past 100, past 120, and land all the way at 140.

ZOS changing it isn't a "nerf", which is just a meaningless buzz term at this point in online gaming. (Right up there with "power creep") "Nerf" is dog whistle for "thing I don't like". They're altering the mechanics because it's giving power out of line with what's needed and what's acceptable, and it's causing a shift where the only real meta is proc stacking in both PvE and PvP.

It's broken. It's being fixed. I, and a lot of other people, are happy with it.

Sorry, I didn't realise using a single monster set is proc stacking. I guess I'm a proctato

And let me guess, it's one of the ones you yourself said was broken?

Whatever. I'm done responding to this saltine factory. ZOS, keep it up. Plenty of us are happy with the direction you've been going and the one you're proposing. Don't let the internet warriors psyche you out of doing what's best for the community overall.

Foxic

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

It's a change in mechanic explicitly intended to make said mechanic weaker. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a nerf.

Let's assume 100 is base damage. That's the damage the devs have decided they want the players at to down content at the time they want the players to down it. Good builds and good players can get up to 120. Bad players down to 80.

They introduce proc sets. Lo! Someone discovers that proc sets stacking crit is a very easy way to push past 100, past 120, and land all the way at 140.

ZOS changing it isn't a "nerf", which is just a meaningless buzz term at this point in online gaming. (Right up there with "power creep") "Nerf" is dog whistle for "thing I don't like". They're altering the mechanics because it's giving power out of line with what's needed and what's acceptable, and it's causing a shift where the only real meta is proc stacking in both PvE and PvP.

It's broken. It's being fixed. I, and a lot of other people, are happy with it.

Sorry, I didn't realise using a single monster set is proc stacking. I guess I'm a proctato

And let me guess, it's one of the ones you yourself said was broken?

Whatever. I'm done responding to this saltine factory. ZOS, keep it up. Plenty of us are happy with the direction you've been going and the one you're proposing. Don't let the internet warriors psyche you out of doing what's best for the community overall.

I plainly said ilambris is over performing. And I don't mind it being nerfed. But the way they nerfed it is ridiculous. Especially taking down alot of other bad sets with it.

Either tone down the base damage of the ones that are too strong or add a global cool down so you can't proc stack. Which we know is possible because they did it to poisons

galledark

This is my opinion:

Proc sets:

The no-crit nerf should be ONLY for PvP and Duels !
Not For PvE !

Neoauspex

Whatever happened to synergies? Make the egregious proc sets into synergy sets. Promote teamwork.

Joy_Division

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

It's a change in mechanic explicitly intended to make said mechanic weaker. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a nerf.

Let's assume 100 is base damage. That's the damage the devs have decided they want the players at to down content at the time they want the players to down it. Good builds and good players can get up to 120. Bad players down to 80.

They introduce proc sets. Lo! Someone discovers that proc sets stacking crit is a very easy way to push past 100, past 120, and land all the way at 140.

ZOS changing it isn't a "nerf", which is just a meaningless buzz term at this point in online gaming. (Right up there with "power creep") "Nerf" is dog whistle for "thing I don't like". They're altering the mechanics because it's giving power out of line with what's needed and what's acceptable, and it's causing a shift where the only real meta is proc stacking in both PvE and PvP.

It's broken. It's being fixed. I, and a lot of other people, are happy with it.

Sorry, I didn't realise using a single monster set is proc stacking. I guess I'm a proctato

And let me guess, it's one of the ones you yourself said was broken?

Whatever. I'm done responding to this saltine factory. ZOS, keep it up. Plenty of us are happy with the direction you've been going and the one you're proposing. Don't let the internet warriors psyche you out of doing what's best for the community overall.

When the PTS comes out and there is a change that you disagree strongly with enough to make multiple posts on the topic, I and I hope other posters as well will dig up this little comment and refer to your concerns and opinions as a "saltine factory."

Joy_Division

double post

AlexTech0x

Slylok wrote: »

I am sorry but disabling crits on proc sets in PvE is not the right thing to do. As I am sure many have pointed out by now that crit damage is very important in PvE.

1 ) Leave as is in PvE
2 ) Once entering Cyrodil disable gear gotten outside of Cyrodil and vice versa as well
3 ) Create Cyordil ONLY gear
4 ) Put beginner gear on an NPC at the zone ins bought for gold
5 ) New Gear is bought with AP / TV

Boom. Done.

I just saved you a headache ZOS for free.

Thats work and honestly is the very least thing they want to do

Uriel_Nocturne

I craft all of my characters' gear, and I never PvP unless I'm Skyshard hunting, so this "sneak peek" doesn't really affect me much.

At least... it doesn't affect me as long as my Templar's stabby-sticks Healing doesn't get nerfed by this change, or any of the effects of my Julianos set...

But this "sneak peek" is f***ing HORRIBLE for PvE overall. I have some friends who run end-game Trials and VMA, and they rely heavily on their procs from the monster sets.

Would it have been so hard to simply tone down or turn off the procs for PvP alone!? I'm pretty shocked at the idea that; Developers who can make and operate an MMO, with all of the coding skills that this takes, cannot make code so that the Proc changes ONLY affect PvP...

@ZOS_RichLambert I know you really don't care about PvE in any real way beyond thinly-veiled PR bulls***, but making those Proc changes in PvE is going to suck so badly...

These changes are a late 2016 gift for PvP, and a hearty 2016 middle-finger to the PvE side of the game.

What the hell are you guys thinking? *SMH*

Silver_Strider

eagles9595b16_ESO wrote: »

Crit are useless ?

Go do direfrost end boss with a proper tank and no crit on set or moster set.. good luck !
Tell your wife you'll be late for dinner.

After the patch, we'll see how DLC dungeon pledge hard mode or trials vet will be completed...

PUG'd vCoS the other day.

CP150 Stamblade
CP540 Stamsorc
Max CP Templar
and myself as a tank

Only proc set among us was my Tremorscale, which really didn't do that much damage as it deals physical damage and I'm magic based, thus my weapon crit was utter garbage.

We cleared it after only 2 wipes, and considering that was a pug group for a DLC dungeon vet mode, I'm going to say that was a pretty good run.

Also, vDirefrost is not hard, like at all. I could solo the lass boss on my stamblade so really you are being over dramatic for nothing

Gal

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos

I'm totally not defending ZOS or anyone. Serious question: if a set (like Nerien'eth, per your example) is trash, doesn't that mean people are, for the most part, not using it? If so, how does a nerf change anything?

Because if only ilambris and grothdar were nerfed, they would be competing with the other monster helms. Some people already take the dps loss and use nerieneth and skoria for aesthetics etc.

But with all of them being nerfed, groth and ilambris are hardly going to be worth using over just plain stat boosting, and the helms that are already under performing are taking a hit as well making them even worse and making them see even less play. It makes no sense to me.

Someone a few pages back posted all of the damaging proc sets in the game. I have over 4K hours played and I have only seen a handful of them used in pvp or pve. A prime example is defending warrior. They just buffed it to heal based on damage done, it was already lackluster but now the heal is significantly nerfed since the damage can't crit.

As for the healing sets. Choke thorn, Bogdan and sentinel are already extremely obscure. Sentinel sees a little play because of the stam return but even that's lackluster. Now that their heals cannot crit, I do not see them being used for any purpose.

I know I keep repeating myself, but nerfing bad sets because a few are too strong is mind boggling.

It's not a nerf dude, it's a change of the mechanic. I don't know why you guys aren't getting it. ZOS decided they didn't like crits on that gear and that some sets could exploit it. You naming off a bunch of sets that are almost universally unused doesn't change the direction. If you want those specific sets buffed, say that, don't sit here and tell me the sky is falling when it rains.

It's a change in mechanic explicitly intended to make said mechanic weaker. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a nerf.

Let's assume 100 is base damage. That's the damage the devs have decided they want the players at to down content at the time they want the players to down it. Good builds and good players can get up to 120. Bad players down to 80.

They introduce proc sets. Lo! Someone discovers that proc sets stacking crit is a very easy way to push past 100, past 120, and land all the way at 140.

ZOS changing it isn't a "nerf", which is just a meaningless buzz term at this point in online gaming. (Right up there with "power creep") "Nerf" is dog whistle for "thing I don't like". They're altering the mechanics because it's giving power out of line with what's needed and what's acceptable, and it's causing a shift where the only real meta is proc stacking in both PvE and PvP.

It's broken. It's being fixed. I, and a lot of other people, are happy with it.

@SunfireKnight86 Have you ever experienced endgame content? Or have you ever gone into Cyrodil with a legitimate pvp build? Do you even have the brain power to understand the repercussions that this change will have on the game? First of all, preventing proc sets from critting will do absolutely nothing in pvp, any player worth a damn will be wearing inpen and have some cp into reduce crit damage taken. If a proc set doesn't crit in pvp, it will make no difference, you will still lose a massive amount of health and if its the widowmaker veli viper combo, you could even be oneshot regardless of crits.

Also, the only proc sets that are useful in pve are Velidreth Illambris Stormfist and Grothdarr but they aren't crutches for dps players. You need to learn to play in order to pull good dps, not put on one of those said monster helms and suddenly you're some OP player that's ready for content like vMoL HM. Now yes I will agree that they are very strong, but they essentially are what made magicka a desirable class again. I remember before the monster helms were added, I would show up for a guild raid and there would be like 6 stam dk dps and maybe 1 stamblade and a stamsorc. Almost nobody played magicka because it simply couldn't perform. Now, however, both classes can pull very comparable dps and both are used to the benefit of the raid in order to clear content as quickly and as easily as possible. Id recommend knowing what you are talking about before you base an entire argument.

Also I want to ask you, does me wearing grothdarr and moondancer (both sets that have some 'proc' element to them) does that make me a proctato following your meta? Cheers mate

Publius_Scipio

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

Global cooldown on proc sets seems to be much better idea. It will stop proc set abusing and oneshot builds without screwing capabilities of monster sets in pve.

If ZOS adds a global cooldown for procs or decreased the chance a proc would fire off, wouldn't that also decrease DPS? You might still have a higher DPS output with ZOS's current proposed change (no crit, but no change to proc chance itself) than any cooldown.

Is it even possible what the hardcore PvEers are asking? Make all the changes to proc sets only affect PvP zones and leave PvE zones alone?

What about when dueling in PvE zones? Do we need to connect IBM Watson to the mega server?

Are you aware, that the only proc sets used in PvE are the Monster Sets? And even then its Grothdarr, LLambris and Kragh's sets, sets that are not really the issue in PvP?

Are you Also aware, that sets such as Velindreth, Viper, Selene and Widowmaker are not used in competitive trails? There are no similar sets for Magicka builds, meaning there are no 5 piece magicka sets that proc once every 4 seconds like viper, nothing similar to widowmaker and nothing hard hitting as Velindreth and Viper? Valkyn can not be compared due to it proccing from applying a DOT, the low proc chance and the cooldown?

Yet PvE is getting hit with this planned crit change, while all alone it is the stamiina proc sets (specific ones) that are causing the issues....

No I was not aware. Are you aware that everyone PvE'd and lived before the era of proc sets? Are you aware PvE always (generally speaking) was in a much better place than PvP was in ESO? Are you aware that all the uproar over this proposed change to proc sets is actually not that PvE quality of life will collapse into an abyss? You must be aware it's players just complaining that they want things to stay the same for the sake of things staying the same correct? Are you aware this whole thread Mr. Lambert started was just a tiny "sneak peak" of what's to come? Are you aware no one else knows what the other game balance changes coming are, in order to factor into the discussion of "omg PvE is toast like Casper the friendly ghost!"?

Are you aware of the change causing a slight change to sustain as Mr. Lambert stated and a large change to burst? Are you aware that only means spending a couple of more minutes time as top shelf builds still sit there and pound mobs and bosses into dust as they always have?