The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Miat's PVP Alerts Addon
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Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They're making changes to the API and that's a good start . Please continue and fix the stealth attack notifications @ZOS_RichLambert .4 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »
I do see the problem you have with gankers. I walk around Cyrodiil with 22k health and 5 pieces of light armor, so I know exactly what you are talking about with gankers, however gankers usually only kill me outright while I'm mounted/sieging and all their procs hit me or I'm already getting run down my multiple players.
Because shields. Mag sorcs would be in the same boat as other mag classes (having to use s&b) if not for hardened ward.
I don't think mag sorc example is relevant to the subject. Mag sorcs don't die to ganks, unless they don't have a shield on. The counterplay is obvious and very much effective.Drummerx04 wrote: »
My point is that your build appears to counter/counterplay just about every other build in terms of defense EXCEPT a stealth gank while maintaining burst via stamNB burst skills.
Would you argue that it's not just the build, but mostly the way i use it?
The 'build' defenses are of active kind. Unlike mag sorc shields or heavy armor as a whole.
This this build is very much susceptible to cc. Especially aoe cc. Unlike all the examples above.Drummerx04 wrote: »You may not hit as hard as other players but you certainly hit hard enough to be a threat, so "pick a different target" isn't really a smart option because you and other 1vXers can pressure and kill me or my group members if given the freedom.
I fail to see a point here. This dichotomy of 'kill or get killed' makes sense if it comes from somebody who's actually easy to kill, which is definitely not a mag sorc in pvp.Drummerx04 wrote: »And "counterplay" isn't just a term for how YOU can survive or kill a particular play style. Figuring out/asking how to play against and defeat a build with massive self healing and the ability to 100% mitigate my most dangerous attacks at will is definitely an issue of counterplay.
I totally agree here. It seemed to me you were putting my case of counterplay on the scales along with your example, though.
Your concern might be valid and totally deserving a discussion. But i don't see how can it be relevant within this thread's topic.Drummerx04 wrote: »I find it peculiar that you think being required to modify your build with radiant magelight to have a better chance of surviving ganks is unfair and a boring counter to ganking, but probably the best way to counter you is to change my build and wear fassala's to lower your healing.
Because 2 reasons:
1. This modification requires me to put radiant on both bars, which is a waste of 2 slots and threatens to disvalidate the whole build.
2. It STILL does not prevent some subset of stealth ganks. Just mitigates some of the damage of heavy attack in the best case.
Trust me, if radiant was *the* solution, i'd use it.Drummerx04 wrote: »You use fear - an unblockable and undodgeable long duration CC which - unlike disorients - won't release the victim automatically, and fear is one of the only CCs that I can't counter with awareness of the impending attack and dodging/blocking to conserve stamina. What's the counterplay for that? Be immune already or have enough stamina to break free are my two in game options. The difference is that I can't write an addon that counters fear.
Counterplay against fear is the same counterplay as against any cc. It's break free. Not sure which part of fear you find troublesome. It doesn't kill you. People don't cast it from stealth. So it's one of the many ccs that go through block. Considering your opponent needs to wait for 1 full sec after casting fear to use anything else besides bash, i do need a use-case description of problems with fear that you have.
Edited by Dorrino on January 16, 2017 11:31PM0 -
KisoValley✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »They're making changes to the API and that's a good start . Please continue and fix the stealth attack notifications @ZOS_RichLambert .
Don't forget to get rid of stealth mechanic as it is completely broken and OP @ZOS_RichLambert @Rohamad_AliEdited by KisoValley on January 17, 2017 12:45AM12 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭KisoValley wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »They're making changes to the API and that's a good start . Please continue and fix the stealth attack notifications @ZOS_RichLambert .
Don't forget to get rid of stealth mechanic as it is completely broken and OP @ZOS_RichLambert @Rohamad_Ali
Do both. Trash can the extra stealth damage and the API.3 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KisoValley wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »They're making changes to the API and that's a good start . Please continue and fix the stealth attack notifications @ZOS_RichLambert .
Don't forget to get rid of stealth mechanic as it is completely broken and OP @ZOS_RichLambert @Rohamad_Ali
You know you don't have to be here right ?5 -
KisoValley✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.6 -
Mako1132✭✭✭✭✭Counterplay is when you're allowed to react to something. Sacrificing 2 ability slots so you can passively negate stealth ganks doesn't qualify IMO. I doubt ZOS will ever touch stealth mechanics because they're only moving in directions for every ability to work in that way. Soon every ability will be either undodgeable, unreflectable, or unblockable and defensive reactions will mean very little while we all just one combo each other.3
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
So what you're saying is, there is a build (ganker) that can kill you. You've listed of a plethora of things that you could do to prevent ganks, but you won't. As soon as you decide "I will not use any tools at my disposal to avoid ganks" you have just signed away your right to complain about being ganked. Gankers build for ganking. They stack damage into the ceiling, having in general no health, no regen, no resistance, and no group utility. You refuse to change your build in any way to account for the supposedly massive threat of gankers, and then use an addon that disallows ganking against you.
It's like saying, there are healing abilities in the game, but I do not want to use any of them for various reasons: therefore, opponents should not be able to do damage to me. I know damage dealers won't be effective anymore, but no one really likes them anyway, so it's okay. I'm not a DD so idc.
(if you honestly believe that there is nothing your class/build can do against gankers, I'd love offer some specific suggestions)7 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
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@Mako1132Counterplay is when you're allowed to react to something. Sacrificing 2 ability slots so you can passively negate stealth ganks doesn't qualify IMO. I doubt ZOS will ever touch stealth mechanics because they're only moving in directions for every ability to work in that way. Soon every ability will be either undodgeable, unreflectable, or unblockable and defensive reactions will mean very little while we all just one combo each other.
I suppose it's a difference in perspective, then. IMO, casting Vigor to combat possibly incoming damage is counterplay. Casting trap beast to snare an approaching Heavy armor user is counterplay. Barrier to deal with oil before pushing a breach, ect.
Strictly by your understanding, it's true there is little counterplay or none, IF (big if) the gank is a complete 1 shot. There are, however a metric butt ton of preventative measures (I tend to lump these into "counterplay" being that they help me "counter" gankers) that safeguard against ganks available to all players.Edited by kadar on January 17, 2017 2:12AM1 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Having just seen the video of Miat "discussing" the lack of counter play to gankers, I have to ask. What is the counterplay to an almost unlimited active dodge shuffle stamblade with massive self healing? As a sorc, if I don't deal 100% of his health as damage in one combo (i.e. have more of a group support build with negate and higher regen)... then I might as well just let him kill me because I'll never kill him.
Would recommend you take a closer look at your skills and your dps-output. There is a lot of good tutorials for PVP-magsorcs in the net, so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what you're doing wrong. With a proper build and skill-rotation, a magsorc is definitely able to tear down shuffling stamblades.1 -
Mako1132✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »
@Mako1132Counterplay is when you're allowed to react to something. Sacrificing 2 ability slots so you can passively negate stealth ganks doesn't qualify IMO. I doubt ZOS will ever touch stealth mechanics because they're only moving in directions for every ability to work in that way. Soon every ability will be either undodgeable, unreflectable, or unblockable and defensive reactions will mean very little while we all just one combo each other.
I suppose it's a difference in perspective, then. IMO, casting Vigor to combat possibly incoming damage is counterplay. Casting trap beast to snare an approaching Heavy armor user is counterplay. Barrier to deal with oil before pushing a breach, ect.
Strictly by your understanding, it's true there is little counterplay or none, IF (big if) the gank is a complete 1 shot. There are, however a metric butt ton of preventative measures (I tend to lump these into "counterplay" being that they help me "counter" gankers) that safeguard against ganks available to all players.
You can see all of those things coming though.0 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭But can we please keep the kill feed and the alliance player counter plsssssSusano'o
Zerg Squad2 -
Solinur✭✭✭However that is in no way a practicable stance when offering an UI for third party addons.
Third party addons operating within the games provided addon interface are by default tolerated by zos. Even addons directly violating the tos (crafting addons automating actions) are tolerated by zos.
The statement they´ve made on miats pvp alerts perfectly reflects this stance on addons.
Based on this everyone using this addon can safely assume an addons useage is perfectly fine unless zos direcly says otherwise.
Where is a crafting addon violating the TOS? Where is Miats violating the TOS?@Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
Addon Author0 -
pjwb16_ESO✭✭✭✭But can we please keep the kill feed and the alliance player counter plsssss
You really are a half god like well fitted star in a zerging squad
On a side note: I totally agree, those are the best parts about the add-on~ here since Beta
My Youtube Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCw3x5B-l0S093TAo10WafLA
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Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭But can we please keep the kill feed and the alliance player counter plsssss
Yes. Let's keep the Alliance Player counter. It's always hilarious when you can "prove" that there's over 100 members of one faction in the same vicinity. And then you laugh about it.
Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
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FleetwoodSmack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lieblingsjunge wrote: »
Honestly, I've been using it to nope right out of a Last Keep, Last Stand situation because I'm tired of 1vXing the loading screen boss.Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies!0 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭Counterplay is when you're allowed to react to something. Sacrificing 2 ability slots so you can passively negate stealth ganks doesn't qualify IMO. I doubt ZOS will ever touch stealth mechanics because they're only moving in directions for every ability to work in that way. Soon every ability will be either undodgeable, unreflectable, or unblockable and defensive reactions will mean very little while we all just one combo each other.
Sounds simplified. Oh! Wait...Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
Omg. U are complaining about having to slot a counter? Lmao2 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
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How about keep your shield stacking up?KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
Gankers arent complaining about that broken mechanic. Just have to wait for u to drop your shields.
Imagine a add on that negated shield stacking? Would that be okay?
[Edit to remove bait]Edited by [Deleted User] on January 17, 2017 7:25PM2 -
Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭cc tracker not functional for me - can't move it.
maybe it doesn't play well with certain other add ons?
0 -
KisoValley✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
So what you're saying is, there is a build (ganker) that can kill you. You've listed of a plethora of things that you could do to prevent ganks, but you won't. As soon as you decide "I will not use any tools at my disposal to avoid ganks" you have just signed away your right to complain about being ganked. Gankers build for ganking. They stack damage into the ceiling, having in general no health, no regen, no resistance, and no group utility. You refuse to change your build in any way to account for the supposedly massive threat of gankers, and then use an addon that disallows ganking against you.
It's like saying, there are healing abilities in the game, but I do not want to use any of them for various reasons: therefore, opponents should not be able to do damage to me. I know damage dealers won't be effective anymore, but no one really likes them anyway, so it's okay. I'm not a DD so idc.
(if you honestly believe that there is nothing your class/build can do against gankers, I'd love offer some specific suggestions)
No, I listed a list of methods that are not viable and one possible thing that is viable but means I and EVERYBODY else in Cyro who wants to counter gankers have to do in order to counter one specific play style because it is completely broken.
Not everyone likes to play heavy armour mag sorc or mag blade because it takes away all our DPS. If I wanted to play a tank I'd play my DK all the time. Tell me, how am I supposed to counter a build like Blobs? Literal one shot with no ulti cost. Miat's addon wouldn't do *** against that if he takes advantage of the addons weaknesses. And the best part about it? The numbers that build hitting on heavy armour, playing in light/medium with magelight wouldn't stop a 1 shot most likely.
Your point on gankers having no health/regen (which is a lie, as most of them use drinks/gold food lol)/resistances/group utility. Great. So they sacrifice health which is not needed thanks to stealth and the fact they can literally kill someone and be back in stealth in the blink of an eye, resistances again funnily enough isn't needed thanks to what I just mentioned and group utility which also hilariously isn't needed because yet again what I just pointed out. Funny that.
A build like Blobs for example can kill 30k+ health targets (seen a friend test his build and do it to a 36k health target and be back into stealth before I even saw the 36k health targets body drop to the ground) with just the combo he uses and be gone back into stealth before anyone can react. Are you really telling me and everyone else to go play with 40k+ health because 36k health is too low to be safe from one playstyle (which even baddies who have just rerolled stamblade can pull off)? In the build video, Blobs 1 shots a 31-32k health target by the way, and I've seen 36k health be 1 shot.
Remove the damage bonus and CC. Also if 50 man "groups" could stop hiding in stealth that'd be great. I've said before, take away those bonuses and/or make stealth NB specific with cloak and I think no one would complain about sneak. As for these "counters" to stealth, I've already given you the counter argument all are which not viable except magelight which I admitted to (although based on the #s you can hit with the 2H ult ganking build I think light/medium armour with magelight won't do much to stop one shots as I said before). You just claimed that I refuse to use them, even though I told you why they're not viable unless I plan to have no stamina everytime I enter combat. At least counter argue lol.2 -
KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
Let me help you out on your counters.
Sorcs have defensive rune.
Someone said shield stacking, if your dropping shields at any time your doin it wrong.
Mage light, you have to have at least one ability on your bar that's changeable if you don't look for one.
Impen, if your not at about 2500 your getting one shotted without shields up no matter what if your impen is high enough you should be able to react (dodge roll healing ward).
Det pot, det pots are a lot better than you think and there is a few combos you can make like spell power set pots immovable det pots, also a little side note on det pots when the gank fails and the nb dark cloaks away pop the det pot they won't know they are detected.
There is counters for every play style and you should build for every play style.
You shouldn't need a add on for a specific build that is easily counterable.Smiff2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Darnathian wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
How about keep your shield stacking up?
Gankers arent complaining about that broken mechanic. Just have to wait for u to drop your shields.
Imagine a add on that negated shield stacking? Would that be okay?
Great idea. I'll just keep my shield up every three seconds while *walking* in between keeps or resources. Since you can't shield on a horse...
Because you know, if I let those shields down for a second I'll be dead before I can put them up...
[Edit to remove bait]Edited by [Deleted User] on January 17, 2017 7:25PM2 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
So what you're saying is, there is a build (ganker) that can kill you. You've listed of a plethora of things that you could do to prevent ganks, but you won't. As soon as you decide "I will not use any tools at my disposal to avoid ganks" you have just signed away your right to complain about being ganked. Gankers build for ganking. They stack damage into the ceiling, having in general no health, no regen, no resistance, and no group utility. You refuse to change your build in any way to account for the supposedly massive threat of gankers, and then use an addon that disallows ganking against you.
It's like saying, there are healing abilities in the game, but I do not want to use any of them for various reasons: therefore, opponents should not be able to do damage to me. I know damage dealers won't be effective anymore, but no one really likes them anyway, so it's okay. I'm not a DD so idc.
(if you honestly believe that there is nothing your class/build can do against gankers, I'd love offer some specific suggestions)
No, I listed a list of methods that are not viable and one possible thing that is viable but means I and EVERYBODY else in Cyro who wants to counter gankers have to do in order to counter one specific play style because it is completely broken.
Not everyone likes to play heavy armour mag sorc or mag blade because it takes away all our DPS. If I wanted to play a tank I'd play my DK all the time. Tell me, how am I supposed to counter a build like Blobs? Literal one shot with no ulti cost. Miat's addon wouldn't do *** against that if he takes advantage of the addons weaknesses. And the best part about it? The numbers that build hitting on heavy armour, playing in light/medium with magelight wouldn't stop a 1 shot most likely.
Your point on gankers having no health/regen (which is a lie, as most of them use drinks/gold food lol)/resistances/group utility. Great. So they sacrifice health which is not needed thanks to stealth and the fact they can literally kill someone and be back in stealth in the blink of an eye, resistances again funnily enough isn't needed thanks to what I just mentioned and group utility which also hilariously isn't needed because yet again what I just pointed out. Funny that.
A build like Blobs for example can kill 30k+ health targets (seen a friend test his build and do it to a 36k health target and be back into stealth before I even saw the 36k health targets body drop to the ground) with just the combo he uses and be gone back into stealth before anyone can react. Are you really telling me and everyone else to go play with 40k+ health because 36k health is too low to be safe from one playstyle (which even baddies who have just rerolled stamblade can pull off)? In the build video, Blobs 1 shots a 31-32k health target by the way, and I've seen 36k health be 1 shot.
Remove the damage bonus and CC. Also if 50 man "groups" could stop hiding in stealth that'd be great. I've said before, take away those bonuses and/or make stealth NB specific with cloak and I think no one would complain about sneak. As for these "counters" to stealth, I've already given you the counter argument all are which not viable except magelight which I admitted to (although based on the #s you can hit with the 2H ult ganking build I think light/medium armour with magelight won't do much to stop one shots as I said before). You just claimed that I refuse to use them, even though I told you why they're not viable unless I plan to have no stamina everytime I enter combat. At least counter argue lol.
I get you want stealth play to be non-existent. I only wish you would attempt to consider both sides of the equation here. I have 2 Stamina NBs, one a ganker, and one a Fighter/Brawler, both over AR 20. I consider myself fairly unbiased on the subject.
My list was not meant to be exhaustive or even have any sort of depth, lol. The mechanics you've highlighted as not viable are indeed quite viable, some being among the more powerful defensive mechanics in the game. They are not necessarily specific to your build (obviously). But for others, those are extremely effective. To downplay their value, is simply misinformation.
Check out the comment above this one. That's Smiff, one of the few gankers who can actually achieve some of the amazing feats people claim all gankers can do with no/little effort. Like he said if you're a mSorc, Impen/Def Rune/Shields/23-25k health/Det Pot. Combine those intelligently and you'll get successfully solo-ganked once a week or so. These are quality of life changes that will aid in a variety of situations. You're not scrapping your build (or stacking 40k health) just for the odd ganker.2 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭PS. I completely refute your point that gankers do not give up anything to excel at ganking. In general, gankers give up...everything else besides raw damage (or procs).
"Most gankers use drinks/gold food." ...My friend... No. No, they don't.Your point on gankers having no health/regen (which is a lie, as most of them use drinks/gold food lol)/resistances/group utility. Great. So they sacrifice health
2 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »
@Mako1132Counterplay is when you're allowed to react to something. Sacrificing 2 ability slots so you can passively negate stealth ganks doesn't qualify IMO. I doubt ZOS will ever touch stealth mechanics because they're only moving in directions for every ability to work in that way. Soon every ability will be either undodgeable, unreflectable, or unblockable and defensive reactions will mean very little while we all just one combo each other.
I suppose it's a difference in perspective, then. IMO, casting Vigor to combat possibly incoming damage is counterplay. Casting trap beast to snare an approaching Heavy armor user is counterplay. Barrier to deal with oil before pushing a breach, ect.
Strictly by your understanding, it's true there is little counterplay or none, IF (big if) the gank is a complete 1 shot. There are, however a metric butt ton of preventative measures (I tend to lump these into "counterplay" being that they help me "counter" gankers) that safeguard against ganks available to all players.
You can see all of those things coming though.
The hypothetical scenario that Miat brings up in the video was 1 where he knew there was an incoming gank (w/o the addon), so I was more referencing that situation. But you're right, sometimes you don't see the gank coming.0 -
Mako1132✭✭✭✭✭For the record I think we're moving in a direction where we're polarizing each others' sides of the argument. I think there's only a very few people who think stealth should not be part of the game, but for most players who dislike ganking the thing they dislike about it is that the fight is decided before it happens. That is where the issue of "counterplay" comes in for me. Most of us in that camp simply would prefer that stealth just gives you the advantage of surprise, the opening attack. Your opponent will be caught off guard, but still if they are able to react quickly enough turn it into a fight. The concept of ganking in ESO must equal one shot you're dead baffles me. IMO there's no place in any MMO for something like that. Ganking, attacking from stealth, should be one of the reasons why you win a fight, not the only reason. Or at least, not the only reason because the other player had no time at all to react.9
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭For the record I think we're moving in a direction where we're polarizing each others' sides of the argument. I think there's only a very few people who think stealth should not be part of the game, but for most players who dislike ganking the thing they dislike about it is that the fight is decided before it happens. That is where the issue of "counterplay" comes in for me. Most of us in that camp simply would prefer that stealth just gives you the advantage of surprise, the opening attack. Your opponent will be caught off guard, but still if they are able to react quickly enough turn it into a fight. The concept of ganking in ESO must equal one shot you're dead baffles me. IMO there's no place in any MMO for something like that. Ganking, attacking from stealth, should be one of the reasons why you win a fight, not the only reason. Or at least, not the only reason because the other player had no time at all to react.
Agreed.
I do think that many exaggerate how often a true 1 shot gank takes place (and how easy it is). I agree that it is currently too common and should be very difficult to accomplish. However, IMO the majority of ganks take 2-3 GCDs instead of the infamous "instakill" 1 GCD ganks. In the case of a greater than 1 GCD gank, there is counterplay, and I think that is the sweet spot where it's fun to gank and it's fun to survive and potentially get your revenge on the ganker. I predict we see a decrease in 1 shots after the proc set nerf goes live.0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »KisoValley wrote: »NedicWildling wrote: »
Also, is this really Miat in the video talking about where is the counterplay etc. ?
Whoever is trying to claim Miat is wrong in that video do a real good job of making themselves look silly.
Miat is totally correct lmao.
How is he correct? He literally can't even stay calm he's so passionate about the subject. Is that seriously Miat raising his voice to the point of yelling? After watching that...man.
The folks arguing with him bring up valid points (block, roll, shuffle, magelight [I would add detect pot], health, cloak, ect, ect, ect), and Miat has no answer. Just laughs or yells. Those things are counterplay regardless of whether they are put in action prior to the encounter with a ganker or after the gank begins. What Miat's addon has done is removed counterplay entirely.
So walk around blocking everywhere I go? Seeing as everywhere I go on PC EU there is a ganker around. I'm being 100% serious btw about seeing gankers everywhere I go. With the addon, I ALWAYS have names showing up, ALWAYS a NB who is possibly a ganker. I could be on the way to dragonclaw and I'll have names showing up it's ridiculous.
Same as block, I should just dodge roll as my main way of travelling?
Shuffle? Guess I'll use 40% of my stam pool on my mag sorc to run a skill that has a 15% dodge chance in the new patch.
Magelight? I can maybe give you that one, except it means I lose a key ability on my skill all to stop myself getting killed within 1 second cause of a broken mechanic (stealth) and playstyle (ganking).
Cloak is NB specific. Detect pots? I guess I keep detect pots up on cooldown and not use any other pots but I enjoy using my spellpower/immovable/tri pots. Health? I'll just become a tank like most others and not play light/medium armour on anything at all?
Fact of the matter is, gankers sacrifice nothing (maybe vigor, which isn't much considering they usually escape anyway cause they can kill someone in the middle of a zerg within a second and be gone before anyone else can react). The only viable counter to gankers is probably magelight, but as I said, I have to sacrifice a key skill to slot it to stop 1 specific playstyle because they are broken.
When gankers admit ganking is broken, you know something is wrong lmao.
So what you're saying is, there is a build (ganker) that can kill you. You've listed of a plethora of things that you could do to prevent ganks, but you won't. As soon as you decide "I will not use any tools at my disposal to avoid ganks" you have just signed away your right to complain about being ganked. Gankers build for ganking. They stack damage into the ceiling, having in general no health, no regen, no resistance, and no group utility. You refuse to change your build in any way to account for the supposedly massive threat of gankers, and then use an addon that disallows ganking against you.
It's like saying, there are healing abilities in the game, but I do not want to use any of them for various reasons: therefore, opponents should not be able to do damage to me. I know damage dealers won't be effective anymore, but no one really likes them anyway, so it's okay. I'm not a DD so idc.
(if you honestly believe that there is nothing your class/build can do against gankers, I'd love offer some specific suggestions)
No, I listed a list of methods that are not viable and one possible thing that is viable but means I and EVERYBODY else in Cyro who wants to counter gankers have to do in order to counter one specific play style because it is completely broken.
Not everyone likes to play heavy armour mag sorc or mag blade because it takes away all our DPS. If I wanted to play a tank I'd play my DK all the time. Tell me, how am I supposed to counter a build like Blobs? Literal one shot with no ulti cost. Miat's addon wouldn't do *** against that if he takes advantage of the addons weaknesses. And the best part about it? The numbers that build hitting on heavy armour, playing in light/medium with magelight wouldn't stop a 1 shot most likely.
Your point on gankers having no health/regen (which is a lie, as most of them use drinks/gold food lol)/resistances/group utility. Great. So they sacrifice health which is not needed thanks to stealth and the fact they can literally kill someone and be back in stealth in the blink of an eye, resistances again funnily enough isn't needed thanks to what I just mentioned and group utility which also hilariously isn't needed because yet again what I just pointed out. Funny that.
A build like Blobs for example can kill 30k+ health targets (seen a friend test his build and do it to a 36k health target and be back into stealth before I even saw the 36k health targets body drop to the ground) with just the combo he uses and be gone back into stealth before anyone can react. Are you really telling me and everyone else to go play with 40k+ health because 36k health is too low to be safe from one playstyle (which even baddies who have just rerolled stamblade can pull off)? In the build video, Blobs 1 shots a 31-32k health target by the way, and I've seen 36k health be 1 shot.
Remove the damage bonus and CC. Also if 50 man "groups" could stop hiding in stealth that'd be great. I've said before, take away those bonuses and/or make stealth NB specific with cloak and I think no one would complain about sneak. As for these "counters" to stealth, I've already given you the counter argument all are which not viable except magelight which I admitted to (although based on the #s you can hit with the 2H ult ganking build I think light/medium armour with magelight won't do much to stop one shots as I said before). You just claimed that I refuse to use them, even though I told you why they're not viable unless I plan to have no stamina everytime I enter combat. At least counter argue lol.
Easy. SHIELDS. Is this guy serious? L2P1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEq8mxwt2M