Nerf Sharpened!

leepalmer95

Dubhliam wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

After this you will probably ask to nerf light armor's Concentration passive .

Light Armor's 4884 Spell penetration is balanced against Medium Armor's 12% greater Weapon Damage.

Sharpened's 5160 Spell and Physical penetration is in no way balanced against the alternative traits.

Caster can wear more armor. Your defenses and health capacity are in your own hands.

Are you trying to say that Precise is viable in PvP?
Or even PvE for that matter?
What about Nirnhoned?

Precise is viable in pve actually.

If your in a high end trial group and the boss has enough debuff's from other sources? E.g. Nightmothers etc..

Then yeah there is a point where a precise is better than sharpened.

Armitas

The HA meta is basically derived from penetration levels.

The last time people tried to get sharpened rebalanced they increased the armor level of trial mobs making it even more essential. I wonder what new way they will find to take this feedback and do the exact opposite with it.

Malmai

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes, I said the magic word.
NERF!

Ever since they buffed Sharpened, there is absolutely no choice for offensive traits. Sharpened outshines Precise and Nirnhoned in all situations.
It is the reason why we have so many vMA whine threads, because people deconstruct Nirnhoned and Precise weapons.

The traits should be put into balance again, and I don't think buffs are the way to go, not with such a fast power creep we have.
Sharpened is seriously overpowered and deserves to be toned down.
I mean, seriously?! A 12% damage increase?! What the hell is ZOS thinking?!

Now, I know some would argue that the HA meta dictates for high penetration values. And it is partially true. But good players can and will adapt. With a nerfed Sharpened trait, people will turn to Mauls and Maces to combat HA. Also, let's not forget: those HA users will hit like wet noodles if their Sharpened weapons no longer wreck people.

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

In my opinion, Sharpened should be reworked to state:
"ignores 20% of the target's resistances (10% for one handed weapons)"

In PvE, those values would be 3700 resistance.
Against high armor targets in PvP, those values would go all the way up to 6400 ignored resistances for 32k armor targets.

Just for comparison, the trait would be just as useful as it is today against players with 25800 resistance, and would only gain more power against tanks.

Are u ret... i just grinded vMSA weapons till my eyes bleeded just stop crying...

Apherius

I love farm the sharpned trait in VMA man . why ? because i can increase my score by 10K every week .

AzuraKin

sharpened - dps
precise - healer
decisive - tank
powered - healer
nirncrux - dps
training - lvling
defending - tank

and there is a balance to the game. nirnhoned is actually better then sharpened against opponents with less then 9.5% damage mitigation from resist. which if you are wondering is this.

light armor mage wearing 5 1 1 - ~11000 resist. casts combat resist buff, tank hits him with resist debuff. mage has 100 points into cp resist, attacker has 100 points into penetration. end result buffs are cancelled out. attacker is wearing spriggan/spinners 7000 resist or ~10.5% resist. meaning all you have to do is throw in minor armor debuff and nirncrux becomes stronger for physical and mages against non tank toons.

altemriel

lol, nope

Dubhliam

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

After this you will probably ask to nerf light armor's Concentration passive .

Light Armor's 4884 Spell penetration is balanced against Medium Armor's 12% greater Weapon Damage.

Sharpened's 5160 Spell and Physical penetration is in no way balanced against the alternative traits.

Caster can wear more armor. Your defenses and health capacity are in your own hands.

Are you trying to say that Precise is viable in PvP?
Or even PvE for that matter?
What about Nirnhoned?

Precise is viable in pve actually.

If your in a high end trial group and the boss has enough debuff's from other sources? E.g. Nightmothers etc..

Then yeah there is a point where a precise is better than sharpened.

Preci... is... WHAT?!!

Of the sheer amount groups doing veteran trials, how many of them do you think use Precise weapons?
Besides, they didn't get to the point where they're being invited into veteran trial runs by having Precise weapons.

Even if that was somehow a common occurrence in veteran trials, it does not justify the ridiculous imbalance of those traits, since trials only cover about 2% of PvE content.

But hey... if a compass is useful when going camping, I guess I should take it with me when going to local coffee shop.
Because logic.

Everything is in order, nothing to see here.

OrphanHelgen

Sharpened is best for dmg if the boss still have ressistance left.
Precice is better if the boss have 0 ressistance.
Tank and healers dont need sharpened.

To sum up: Sharpened are only good for DD's in most situations, but not all. Its very selfish to look at your gear and setup only, and ask for game change based on that.

Dubhliam

Malmai wrote: »

Are u ret... i just grinded vMSA weapons till my eyes bleeded just stop crying...

Apherius wrote: »

I love farm the sharpned trait in VMA man . why ? because i can increase my score by 10K every week .

I can't wait to read your whine threads when the gear gets bumped to CP180.

AzuraKin

and btw here another fact: against heavy armor max resist of 33500 you can penetrate that armore by 28442 leaving them with 5058 resist or 7.5% damage reduction without even using sharpened weapons.

Wollust

I don't understand why people think that there will be more variety by nerfing Sharpened and buffing others. There is always going to be that one dominant trait. In fact, we have currently the highest variety in traits iirc. I mean, before it was Nirn for magicka and Sharpened (or maybe Precise) for stamina.
Sure, Sharpened has the biggest share on users, but still. Everyone that understands a little about PvP will most likely run Defending on their back bar. Precise is in high debuff groups pretty close if not even stronger than sharpened. Powered has some use. Infused is good for tanks.

I don't see a need for a change tbh.

Bigevilpeter

Or buff the others

AzuraKin

Wollust wrote: »

I don't understand why people think that there will be more variety by nerfing Sharpened and buffing others. There is always going to be that one dominant trait. In fact, we have currently the highest variety in traits iirc. I mean, before it was Nirn for magicka and Sharpened (or maybe Precise) for stamina.
Sure, Sharpened has the biggest share on users, but still. Everyone that understands a little about PvP will most likely run Defending on their back bar. Precise is in high debuff groups pretty close if not even stronger than sharpened. Powered has some use. Infused is good for tanks.

I don't see a need for a change tbh.

exactly why i keep posting all the theorycrafting numbers to show how much pene 1 can get all you need is a someone wearing nightmothers tossing out caltrops and someone could even be same guy wearing sunderflame and heavy attacking targets.

Awakatanka

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Buff the other traits instead of nerfing Sharpened.
See here in my thread for suggestions.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/303537/make-the-other-traits-great-as-well

Yes buff everything so everything will become even more easier, that is what we need in this game...... everything is all ready on easy mode in this game.

Izaki

Sources of pénétration are pretty rare so by nerfing sharpened, it will become more valuable. They would need to introduce something else to debuff armor otherwise sharpened will still be more valuable and better than the other traits. For stam builds it is possible to go 1 Sharp 1 précise because of 2 sets: NMG and Sunderflame. The magicka équivalent is Light Armor Passives. Without Sharp, but with all the currently possible debuffs you would be at around 11k pénétration (not 100% uptime either). So if Sharp was like 3k instead of the current 5k, it would still be better than nirn or précise IMO.

leepalmer95

Dubhliam wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

Are u ret... i just grinded vMSA weapons till my eyes bleeded just stop crying...

Apherius wrote: »

I love farm the sharpned trait in VMA man . why ? because i can increase my score by 10K every week .

I can't wait to read your whine threads when the gear gets bumped to CP180.

Not in the next year your won't.

Dubhliam

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Sources of pénétration are pretty rare so by nerfing sharpened, it will become more valuable. They would need to introduce something else to debuff armor otherwise sharpened will still be more valuable and better than the other traits. For stam builds it is possible to go 1 Sharp 1 précise because of 2 sets: NMG and Sunderflame. The magicka équivalent is Light Armor Passives. Without Sharp, but with all the currently possible debuffs you would be at around 11k pénétration (not 100% uptime either). So if Sharp was like 3k instead of the current 5k, it would still be better than nirn or précise IMO.

Exactly this.

If the trait was to be reworked into "ignores 20% resistances", this would make Sharpened trait ignore 3700 resistances from PvE bosses.
It is still a respectable amount.

Let's take my example from earlier and take a look at DPS increase in this scenario.
If a skill would do 1000 damage, it does 700 damage to a boss with full resistances.
With a 20% sharpened trait, it will now do 756 damage.
That is still an 8% increase in damage.

Note that 2H skill line already has that exact same passive for Mauls.

Strider_Roshin

Buff the others instead

Destruent

Dubhliam wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Sources of pénétration are pretty rare so by nerfing sharpened, it will become more valuable. They would need to introduce something else to debuff armor otherwise sharpened will still be more valuable and better than the other traits. For stam builds it is possible to go 1 Sharp 1 précise because of 2 sets: NMG and Sunderflame. The magicka équivalent is Light Armor Passives. Without Sharp, but with all the currently possible debuffs you would be at around 11k pénétration (not 100% uptime either). So if Sharp was like 3k instead of the current 5k, it would still be better than nirn or précise IMO.

Exactly this.

If the trait was to be reworked into "ignores 20% resistances", this would make Sharpened trait ignore 3700 resistances from PvE bosses.
It is still a respectable amount.

Let's take my example from earlier and take a look at DPS increase in this scenario.
If a skill would do 1000 damage, it does 700 damage to a boss with full resistances.
With a 20% sharpened trait, it will now do 756 damage.
That is still an 8% increase in damage.

Note that 2H skill line already has that exact same passive for Mauls.

No, it would ignore a maximum of 3.7k resistances. It gets applied after all other debuffs/penetration, it's value is decreased the more debuffs you have.
E.g: 18.1k resistances - 100 (basepen) - 5.26k (major breach/fracture) - 3.05k (alkosh) - 4.88k (LA-passive) = 4.81k --> sharpened would decrease this by 962...that's far away from your example and would render sharpened more or less useless. Even without alkosh it would only decrease the value by 1.6k, which is not even half of what you stated.

Izaki

Destruent wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Sources of pénétration are pretty rare so by nerfing sharpened, it will become more valuable. They would need to introduce something else to debuff armor otherwise sharpened will still be more valuable and better than the other traits. For stam builds it is possible to go 1 Sharp 1 précise because of 2 sets: NMG and Sunderflame. The magicka équivalent is Light Armor Passives. Without Sharp, but with all the currently possible debuffs you would be at around 11k pénétration (not 100% uptime either). So if Sharp was like 3k instead of the current 5k, it would still be better than nirn or précise IMO.

Exactly this.

If the trait was to be reworked into "ignores 20% resistances", this would make Sharpened trait ignore 3700 resistances from PvE bosses.
It is still a respectable amount.

Let's take my example from earlier and take a look at DPS increase in this scenario.
If a skill would do 1000 damage, it does 700 damage to a boss with full resistances.
With a 20% sharpened trait, it will now do 756 damage.
That is still an 8% increase in damage.

Note that 2H skill line already has that exact same passive for Mauls.

No, it would ignore a maximum of 3.7k resistances. It gets applied after all other debuffs/penetration, it's value is decreased the more debuffs you have.
E.g: 18.1k resistances - 100 (basepen) - 5.26k (major breach/fracture) - 3.05k (alkosh) - 4.88k (LA-passive) = 4.81k --> sharpened would decrease this by 962...that's far away from your example and would render sharpened more or less useless. Even without alkosh it would only decrease the value by 1.6k, which is not even half of what you stated.

Yep which is why Sharp was kinda rubbish. They can reduce the pénétration from the trait as long as they introduce a new debuff but not from as set rather a passive or active skill. This will definetly make Sharp comparable to nirn and précise and i dont think that an alternative solution exists. Even if they buff other traits pénétration is Just too much of an important factor in PvP and PvE. Alternatively the can add additional sources of crit damage so stacking into Elfborn and Précise Strikes isnt the only way to get it. Obviously theres Minor and Major Force, but thèse buffs are alreday accessible fairly easily. If you didnt Just dump like 46-66 points into crit damage CP but a little less, you would be able to get some spell erosion. This would already reduce the effectiveness of sharpened.

idk

Dubhliam wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

@Dubhliam

Your math is incorrect.

@ CP160 A gold reinforced shield with shield expert passive (most will have this except non CP campaigns) provides 3491 armor value and a gold one hand defensive provides 2580 defense.

Did you even read what you quote?

Also, I am not upset.
I spend 95% of my time in ESO tanking in group PvE content.

I am genuinely concerned about the incompetence of ZOS and the imbalance they create.

@Dubhliam Considering your comment about sharpened it seemed you did not understand much about the math behind it. Thought I needed to explain in detail here.

Most important was your comment that sharpened outperforms precise in all situations is false drives home the point that proper information is needed here.


This is from @Jeckll within this thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/rip-precise/

I think the chances to reduce a mobs resistance to 0 is far more real for Magicka DPS than it sounds like here.

5280 Major Breech
1320 Minor Breech
1946 Infused Crusher
3010 Alkosh
4884 Light Armor Passiv Concentration

= 16400 Spell Penetration without Sharpened.

At least for Dual Wield Magicka, that already points into 1 sword sharpened, 1 precise in raids.

As you get less than 50% from a Sharpened staff in this condition (especially considering the 10% Penetration passive with Destruction Staff abilities), chances are a Precise Staff is also more benefical in that case. Not going to do the complete math for you lovely magicka people, just something I thought of.

Sneaky-Snurr

Alucardo wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

Just one useful trait, thanks. Decisions are hard.

Not sure if you're joking or not. O_o

Solariken

I agree with the OP. There is plenty of room to nerf Sharpened a bit and have it still be the best trait for raw damage output.

Nerf is the best option because as the OP mentioned, we don't need more power creep.

Jaronking

Didn't you hear @Wrobel sharpened is situational.

Lexxypwns

Jaronking wrote: »

Didn't you hear @Wrobel sharpened is situational.

It's useless against damage shields, but then, so is precise, the only other potentially viable trait

Dubhliam

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

@Dubhliam

Your math is incorrect.

@ CP160 A gold reinforced shield with shield expert passive (most will have this except non CP campaigns) provides 3491 armor value and a gold one hand defensive provides 2580 defense.

Did you even read what you quote?

Also, I am not upset.
I spend 95% of my time in ESO tanking in group PvE content.

I am genuinely concerned about the incompetence of ZOS and the imbalance they create.

@Dubhliam Considering your comment about sharpened it seemed you did not understand much about the math behind it. Thought I needed to explain in detail here.

Most important was your comment that sharpened outperforms precise in all situations is false drives home the point that proper information is needed here.


This is from @Jeckll within this thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/rip-precise/

I think the chances to reduce a mobs resistance to 0 is far more real for Magicka DPS than it sounds like here.

5280 Major Breech
1320 Minor Breech
1946 Infused Crusher
3010 Alkosh
4884 Light Armor Passiv Concentration

= 16400 Spell Penetration without Sharpened.

At least for Dual Wield Magicka, that already points into 1 sword sharpened, 1 precise in raids.

As you get less than 50% from a Sharpened staff in this condition (especially considering the 10% Penetration passive with Destruction Staff abilities), chances are a Precise Staff is also more benefical in that case. Not going to do the complete math for you lovely magicka people, just something I thought of.

First of all, you list Alkosh as if it is omnipresent in every group.
Second, this only applies to magicka DDs, all stamina DDs still get the full benefit of Sharpened.

So... best case scenario is:
PvP
Sharpened outperforms ALWAYS
PvE
Sharpened underperforms for 50% of Damage Dealers IF certain conditions are met, meaning you have to have a group of elite players that understand the value of Alkosh and Power of the Light.

Basically, for a very specific build (DW magicka DD in an high-end optimal trial setting) the Sharpened trait wouldn't lose value, but Precise would gain some value - for that specific scenario.
In every other case, Sharpened outperforms.

Seems like a lot of hoops to jump though just to defend a trait that outperforms in almost every situation that is not ideal.

Alucardo

Precise weapons should increase your critical damage, similar to how to the Shadow mundus works. These days people just want something that will increase their damage, not give them a chance at increasing damage.

Dubhliam

Alucardo wrote: »

Precise weapons should increase your critical damage, similar to how to the Shadow mundus works. These days people just want something that will increase their damage, not give them a chance at increasing damage.

I agree with you, it should be like Shadow.

But a Precise weapon will give you more Crit Chance than all of your Divine traits combined.

And Sharpened vastly outperforms Precise.

Let that sink in.

Destruent

But where would you want to balance them? Where should both traits are more or less equal? Atm the difference between sharpened and precise is extremely small in optimized groups and will be even smaller with the next patch.
Do you want to balance it around solo-players in groupdungeons? open world? pvp against light armor? pvp against heavy armor? etc.

Also keep in mind, if you change sharpened you'll have to change defending aswell, bc they are considered counters to each other.

Doctordarkspawn

Lol.

Nerf the stupid resistances Dungeon mobs and bosses have and you wont NEED sharpened anymore, kill two birds with one stone.

Edit: Upon closer inspection this appears to be a 'nerf for PVP' thread since it specifically mentions the HA meta, and to that I say, bollocks. No. The world does not bend to PVP, nor should it. I am sure this will not be the first time you advocate for this OP, but it didn't happen then and It shouldn't happen -now-.