Nerf Sharpened!

FriedEggSandwich

AzuraKin wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

lol you would have to buff crit damage by 100% 2hd, 50% 1hd weapons to make crit even possibly worthwhile in pvp.

10,000 damage hit multiplied by 1.5 crit damage + .18 (pure divine) shadow stone + .25 cp + 15% archer mind stealth bonus = 108% crit damage boost for nonnb. this puts damage at 20800 after impen 10400 so with nonnb's absolute max crit damage bonus they would only gain 400 damage from every 10k damage skills they fire off that crits. nbs would gain an additional 1k crit damage or 500 damage after impen. so a nb with archers mind, full divines in pvp would only gain a 9% damage boost on a crit over a noncrit at 100 points into cp crit buff.

My math is really bad, I scraped a c grade at gcse 20 years ago, and that was with extra tuition. I was just thinking of a trait that directly countered impen, as precise doesn't do that. Currently the only counter to impen is elfborn.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

lol you would have to buff crit damage by 100% 2hd, 50% 1hd weapons to make crit even possibly worthwhile in pvp.

10,000 damage hit multiplied by 1.5 crit damage + .18 (pure divine) shadow stone + .25 cp + 15% archer mind stealth bonus = 108% crit damage boost for nonnb. this puts damage at 20800 after impen 10400 so with nonnb's absolute max crit damage bonus they would only gain 400 damage from every 10k damage skills they fire off that crits. nbs would gain an additional 1k crit damage or 500 damage after impen. so a nb with archers mind, full divines in pvp would only gain a 9% damage boost on a crit over a noncrit at 100 points into cp crit buff.

My math is really bad, I scraped a c grade at gcse 20 years ago, and that was with extra tuition. I was just thinking of a trait that directly countered impen, as precise doesn't do that. Currently the only counter to impen is elfborn.

And the shadow mundas and the 10% increase CHD passives in temp and NB class lines.

FriedEggSandwich

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

lol you would have to buff crit damage by 100% 2hd, 50% 1hd weapons to make crit even possibly worthwhile in pvp.

10,000 damage hit multiplied by 1.5 crit damage + .18 (pure divine) shadow stone + .25 cp + 15% archer mind stealth bonus = 108% crit damage boost for nonnb. this puts damage at 20800 after impen 10400 so with nonnb's absolute max crit damage bonus they would only gain 400 damage from every 10k damage skills they fire off that crits. nbs would gain an additional 1k crit damage or 500 damage after impen. so a nb with archers mind, full divines in pvp would only gain a 9% damage boost on a crit over a noncrit at 100 points into cp crit buff.

My math is really bad, I scraped a c grade at gcse 20 years ago, and that was with extra tuition. I was just thinking of a trait that directly countered impen, as precise doesn't do that. Currently the only counter to impen is elfborn.

And the shadow mundas and the 10% increase CHD passives in temp and NB class lines.

True, forgot about shadow mundus.

AzuraKin

or l2p as is so often said. pvp push wp not crit, in fact make crit as low as you can. use swords instead of daggers, sharpened instead of precise, dont use gear with crit passives. you can easily without nerfing damage done, push crit down to 40% easy.

Lukums1

I liked the bit about raising the gear to level 180 LOL.

This won't happen for agessssss. It's been stuck like this for agessssss.

Kinda agree with sharpen but I have all the sharpen maelstrom weapons so it's another meh thread for me.

olsborg

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

That would be one way to buff precise tho. ^^

Dubhliam

.

Woeler wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

I meant in pve. Well maybe it will be "nerf nirnhoned" I don't know. One thing is always going to be flat out the best in numbers and then we'll get "nerf X" threads again. That is assuming something will be changed, which will most definitely not happen.

If you take a look at threads before Dark Brotherhood, there wasn't a simple answer to the question "which trait is best for my weapon?".
There were followup questions, and the answer depended on the situation.

This is now not the case.
Sharpened is always the answer. Let's leave the "high-end optimal trial group setting" from this conversation for a while.

With the changes, I think Precise would become more viable for magicka DDs (due to their Light Armor passives) while Sharpened might still be a better option for stamina users.
Although, here we are only talking about "slightly better", and not "by a large margin".
Sharpened would still be a viable trait to have on a weapon, it would not be decon fodder.
Also, although Precise might take the throne of "BiS trait" for PvE, Sharpened would still be vastly superior to it in PvP.

Therefore, all traits would be useful in one way or another, which is currently simply not the case.

IwakuraLain42

As much as I hate nerfing stuff I have to say that buffing the other traits is not the best idea. Remember that the game has a serious problem with power creep, the latest changes to the veteran dungeons were a direct answer to that problem (although it does throws low-CP players under the bus).

One trait will always be better then the other, but the difference shouldn't be so large as they currently are. I would prefer that Sharpend gets a light nerf, precise/nirnhorned as slight buff and the other traits a rework were they are actually worthwhile to use. Even if this means that I loose power from my sharpened weapons .... :-(

RazorCaltrops

People mentioned before, but here's another repeat:

There will always be one trait to rule them all, and it will be the one that gives the most penetration which is currently sharpened.

Speaking for PVE, the only irreplaceable weapons with a crafted one are the VMA dual wield which got nerfed anyway and VMA bow. You can use just 1 sharpened of them if your team provides enough armor shredding. For magicka that's very easy because you can just craft a non-set sharpened inferno (that's what i'm doing currently) if you aren't lucky to get a VMA/Moondancer/Infallible Aether and still be competitive, lack of these 3 staves is not the end of the world. Dps increase ? Yes but not a game changer.

Therefore changing the topic to "increase the drop rate of sharpened trait in vma" would be better.

Malmai

If they nerf sharp stamina will have very low penetration so that wont happen (no med armor passive like light).

Dubhliam

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

Therefore changing the topic to "increase the drop rate of sharpened trait in vma" would be better.

This discrepancy in trait power is not confined to vMA weapons, and it will haunt us for the rest of the game life if it stays in the current state.

Malmai wrote: »

If they nerf sharp stamina will have very low penetration so that wont happen (no med armor passive like light).

Stamina has 12% greater Weapon Damage from the MA passives to compensate for the LA spell penetration.
In PvE, nothing much will change, but in PvP... LA would be more viable than it currently is (at least it wouldn't be as penalized as it is now).

lardvader

Maybe not nerf it but buff some other traits? I'm all for some adjustments to make some other traits more viable.

Mojmir

Buff charged,for I have many

Dymence

Dubhliam wrote: »

.

Woeler wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

I meant in pve. Well maybe it will be "nerf nirnhoned" I don't know. One thing is always going to be flat out the best in numbers and then we'll get "nerf X" threads again. That is assuming something will be changed, which will most definitely not happen.

If you take a look at threads before Dark Brotherhood, there wasn't a simple answer to the question "which trait is best for my weapon?".
There were followup questions, and the answer depended on the situation.

Nope, there was most definitely a simple answer. Even now you still see some people saying precise is good, or hell even infused.

Most people have no idea what they're talking about. Never did.

Dubhliam

Dymence wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

.

Woeler wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

I meant in pve. Well maybe it will be "nerf nirnhoned" I don't know. One thing is always going to be flat out the best in numbers and then we'll get "nerf X" threads again. That is assuming something will be changed, which will most definitely not happen.

If you take a look at threads before Dark Brotherhood, there wasn't a simple answer to the question "which trait is best for my weapon?".
There were followup questions, and the answer depended on the situation.

Nope, there was most definitely a simple answer. Even now you still see some people saying precise is good, or hell even infused.

Most people have no idea what they're talking about. Never did.

I had an argument with a guildie just yesterday that was saying Precise was good.
I know where you're coming from.

But you have to admit: Sharpened became the king of traits when they decided to rework it into a fixed value instead of percentage based.
By a large margin.

SkylarkX

If the targets resistances are debuffed and/or you run high crit chance & damage + high weapon/spell damage buffs then nirnhoned is better than sharpened.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

SkylarkX wrote: »

If the targets resistances are debuffed and/or you run high crit chance & damage + high weapon/spell damage buffs then nirnhoned is better than sharpened.

The only way nirn is better then precise is if you have more then 94% crit. Duel nirn swords give the most spell and weapon damage and it is still less then the 7% crit that you get from precise. Staffs are even worse with nirn then that.

Dubhliam

SkylarkX wrote: »

If the targets resistances are debuffed and/or you run high crit chance & damage + high weapon/spell damage buffs then nirnhoned is better than sharpened.

Care to back your claims with numbers?

Because, it seems every ESO player is wrong to have Sharpened weapons if we are to take your word for it.

idk

AzuraKin wrote: »

its funny how so few people have read anything i posted here lets do some crazy theory crafting.

heavy armor 7p gold: = 14897 resist
armor buffs: = 5280
champion points (600) 5280 all points in warrior mage/phys resists
shield 1720
defending 2640
13029 mark of the pariah.
3870 warden monster set
1935 second set

so without weapon/shield 44291 resist at low health.
s/b would put that at 49941
d/w 49871
meaning 49941 is the highest resist before armor traits one could possibly get
most logical though especially at start of the fight is 38847 shield 38777 d/w.
meaning after the 35042 physical penetration possible to aquire, a full on tank would be left with only 3735 resist as dw, 3805 s/b and at low health 14829 d/w and 14899 s/b.this means at the strongest a tank could be would only reduce damage by 22% or turn a 10000 damage base ability to 5000 (pvp debuff) * .78 = 3900 damage.

if you cannot figure where i have gone with this. do some thinking for once. good day.

@AzuraKin

If your gonna go through the trouble of explaining how to get such high resist at least explain where your getting all that armor reduction from in the same manner. Don't do it half a**.

The devil is in the details. Thank you.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I made this thread a few months ago and mostly got yelled at. haha

You are not wrong. Sharp is wildly OP, probably the single most OP thing in the game. To me, something is over powered when it becomes the only option (because every other options sucks in comparison). In other words, the sharpened trait is overly powerful when compared to any other option, and that is exactly where Sharp is now. OP as #%&*!

Even in a perfect raid with every debuff imaginable, the best DPS in the best raid groups still go sharpened because you just cant keep up the debuff scenario enough of the time for Precise to pull ahead. If you are a damage dealer, sharp is BIS all the time everywhere. The only possible exception is if you are dueling a shield stacking sorc, then Nirn might be a bit better.

I also agree that for proper balance, sometimes a nerf is appropriate. Power creep is very real. I would like to get to a point where Sharp is the go to in certain situations like fighting a heavy armor user or when solo and you dont have the Debuffs. Nirn could be more of a jack of all trades, but very solid DPS in lots of scenarios, and Precise is back on top for a proper raid with organized debuffs. Then, you would have meaningful choices and you wouldnt want to rip your eyeballs out when you get a VMA inferno in Nirnhoned. In the current meta, every VMA weapon that is not sharp, is essentially decon materials. That is not a good state of things.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

People mentioned before, but here's another repeat:

There will always be one trait to rule them all, and it will be the one that gives the most penetration which is currently sharpened.

Speaking for PVE, the only irreplaceable weapons with a crafted one are the VMA dual wield which got nerfed anyway and VMA bow. You can use just 1 sharpened of them if your team provides enough armor shredding. For magicka that's very easy because you can just craft a non-set sharpened inferno (that's what i'm doing currently) if you aren't lucky to get a VMA/Moondancer/Infallible Aether and still be competitive, lack of these 3 staves is not the end of the world. Dps increase ? Yes but not a game changer.

Therefore changing the topic to "increase the drop rate of sharpened trait in vma" would be better.

This was not always the case. A year ago, precise was better in a raid, and sharp was better solo or in PVP. Nirn was actually better on things like DW swords for casters. There were options. It wasnt until they changed sharp to a ridiculously high penetration value that this all change.

Something to thing about, the trait on your weapon gives twice the penetration value of the main 5 piece armor pen set, Nightmothers. It is a ridiculously huge amount of penetration for one trait. This idea that one thing will always be the best is just nonsense. Balance works best when certain things are better in different situations. It used to be that way, but that is no longer the case.

threefarms

ZOS should nerf you.

AzuraKin

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

its funny how so few people have read anything i posted here lets do some crazy theory crafting.

heavy armor 7p gold: = 14897 resist
armor buffs: = 5280
champion points (600) 5280 all points in warrior mage/phys resists
shield 1720
defending 2640
13029 mark of the pariah.
3870 warden monster set
1935 second set

so without weapon/shield 44291 resist at low health.
s/b would put that at 49941
d/w 49871
meaning 49941 is the highest resist before armor traits one could possibly get
most logical though especially at start of the fight is 38847 shield 38777 d/w.
meaning after the 35042 physical penetration possible to aquire, a full on tank would be left with only 3735 resist as dw, 3805 s/b and at low health 14829 d/w and 14899 s/b.this means at the strongest a tank could be would only reduce damage by 22% or turn a 10000 damage base ability to 5000 (pvp debuff) * .78 = 3900 damage.

if you cannot figure where i have gone with this. do some thinking for once. good day.

@AzuraKin

If your gonna go through the trouble of explaining how to get such high resist at least explain where your getting all that armor reduction from in the same manner. Don't do it half a**.

The devil is in the details. Thank you.

i did on another post, and secondly http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets has all the info you need on gear sets.

AzuraKin

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

People mentioned before, but here's another repeat:

There will always be one trait to rule them all, and it will be the one that gives the most penetration which is currently sharpened.

Speaking for PVE, the only irreplaceable weapons with a crafted one are the VMA dual wield which got nerfed anyway and VMA bow. You can use just 1 sharpened of them if your team provides enough armor shredding. For magicka that's very easy because you can just craft a non-set sharpened inferno (that's what i'm doing currently) if you aren't lucky to get a VMA/Moondancer/Infallible Aether and still be competitive, lack of these 3 staves is not the end of the world. Dps increase ? Yes but not a game changer.

Therefore changing the topic to "increase the drop rate of sharpened trait in vma" would be better.

This was not always the case. A year ago, precise was better in a raid, and sharp was better solo or in PVP. Nirn was actually better on things like DW swords for casters. There were options. It wasnt until they changed sharp to a ridiculously high penetration value that this all change.

Something to thing about, the trait on your weapon gives twice the penetration value of the main 5 piece armor pen set, Nightmothers. It is a ridiculously huge amount of penetration for one trait. This idea that one thing will always be the best is just nonsense. Balance works best when certain things are better in different situations. It used to be that way, but that is no longer the case.

here question why change anything. what do you want them to take spell pene from sharpen and change nirn hone to spell pene like it used to be?

FriedEggSandwich

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

People mentioned before, but here's another repeat:

There will always be one trait to rule them all, and it will be the one that gives the most penetration which is currently sharpened.

Speaking for PVE, the only irreplaceable weapons with a crafted one are the VMA dual wield which got nerfed anyway and VMA bow. You can use just 1 sharpened of them if your team provides enough armor shredding. For magicka that's very easy because you can just craft a non-set sharpened inferno (that's what i'm doing currently) if you aren't lucky to get a VMA/Moondancer/Infallible Aether and still be competitive, lack of these 3 staves is not the end of the world. Dps increase ? Yes but not a game changer.

Therefore changing the topic to "increase the drop rate of sharpened trait in vma" would be better.

This was not always the case. A year ago, precise was better in a raid, and sharp was better solo or in PVP. Nirn was actually better on things like DW swords for casters. There were options. It wasnt until they changed sharp to a ridiculously high penetration value that this all change.

Something to thing about, the trait on your weapon gives twice the penetration value of the main 5 piece armor pen set, Nightmothers. It is a ridiculously huge amount of penetration for one trait. This idea that one thing will always be the best is just nonsense. Balance works best when certain things are better in different situations. It used to be that way, but that is no longer the case.

Precise is still better when bosses are debuffed to the point where sharpened no longer does anything, i.e. full raids. I've always had an addon that displayed my spell pen on my char sheet. Back when nirnhoned was BiS for a staff I had 16k spell pen. Now I have a sharpened staff, 60+ cp in spell erosion and 5x spinners and I have exactly 17.8k spell pen. Just a bit of perspective; penetration levels are slightly higher (at least for a mag sorc) than they were, they just altered how you get there and made you invest more to get there. I'm a pvper and see the prevalence of heavy armour in pvp and a nerf to sharpened would be an indirect buff to heavy armour. If you're lamenting the demise of precise then why not campaign for a buff to that trait?

Kalebron

sharpened will always be a trait that everyone picks. Same goes for precise. You can show graphs and charts all day long, it will not change anything. Just play the game and be happy.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

People mentioned before, but here's another repeat:

There will always be one trait to rule them all, and it will be the one that gives the most penetration which is currently sharpened.

Speaking for PVE, the only irreplaceable weapons with a crafted one are the VMA dual wield which got nerfed anyway and VMA bow. You can use just 1 sharpened of them if your team provides enough armor shredding. For magicka that's very easy because you can just craft a non-set sharpened inferno (that's what i'm doing currently) if you aren't lucky to get a VMA/Moondancer/Infallible Aether and still be competitive, lack of these 3 staves is not the end of the world. Dps increase ? Yes but not a game changer.

Therefore changing the topic to "increase the drop rate of sharpened trait in vma" would be better.

This was not always the case. A year ago, precise was better in a raid, and sharp was better solo or in PVP. Nirn was actually better on things like DW swords for casters. There were options. It wasnt until they changed sharp to a ridiculously high penetration value that this all change.

Something to thing about, the trait on your weapon gives twice the penetration value of the main 5 piece armor pen set, Nightmothers. It is a ridiculously huge amount of penetration for one trait. This idea that one thing will always be the best is just nonsense. Balance works best when certain things are better in different situations. It used to be that way, but that is no longer the case.

Precise is still better when bosses are debuffed to the point where sharpened no longer does anything, i.e. full raids. I've always had an addon that displayed my spell pen on my char sheet. Back when nirnhoned was BiS for a staff I had 16k spell pen. Now I have a sharpened staff, 60+ cp in spell erosion and 5x spinners and I have exactly 17.8k spell pen. Just a bit of perspective; penetration levels are slightly higher (at least for a mag sorc) than they were, they just altered how you get there and made you invest more to get there. I'm a pvper and see the prevalence of heavy armour in pvp and a nerf to sharpened would be an indirect buff to heavy armour. If you're lamenting the demise of precise then why not campaign for a buff to that trait?

This is one of those situations where theorycrafting and reall life butt heads. Yes you can get to a point on paper where precise>sharp with enough raid debuffs, but it's not real life. The best DPS in the best raids still go sharp because you just can't keep that scenario up enough of the time for precise to over take sharp throughout a 6 minute fight. Sharp>precise even in a really good raid.

FriedEggSandwich

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

People mentioned before, but here's another repeat:

There will always be one trait to rule them all, and it will be the one that gives the most penetration which is currently sharpened.

Speaking for PVE, the only irreplaceable weapons with a crafted one are the VMA dual wield which got nerfed anyway and VMA bow. You can use just 1 sharpened of them if your team provides enough armor shredding. For magicka that's very easy because you can just craft a non-set sharpened inferno (that's what i'm doing currently) if you aren't lucky to get a VMA/Moondancer/Infallible Aether and still be competitive, lack of these 3 staves is not the end of the world. Dps increase ? Yes but not a game changer.

Therefore changing the topic to "increase the drop rate of sharpened trait in vma" would be better.

This was not always the case. A year ago, precise was better in a raid, and sharp was better solo or in PVP. Nirn was actually better on things like DW swords for casters. There were options. It wasnt until they changed sharp to a ridiculously high penetration value that this all change.

Something to thing about, the trait on your weapon gives twice the penetration value of the main 5 piece armor pen set, Nightmothers. It is a ridiculously huge amount of penetration for one trait. This idea that one thing will always be the best is just nonsense. Balance works best when certain things are better in different situations. It used to be that way, but that is no longer the case.

Precise is still better when bosses are debuffed to the point where sharpened no longer does anything, i.e. full raids. I've always had an addon that displayed my spell pen on my char sheet. Back when nirnhoned was BiS for a staff I had 16k spell pen. Now I have a sharpened staff, 60+ cp in spell erosion and 5x spinners and I have exactly 17.8k spell pen. Just a bit of perspective; penetration levels are slightly higher (at least for a mag sorc) than they were, they just altered how you get there and made you invest more to get there. I'm a pvper and see the prevalence of heavy armour in pvp and a nerf to sharpened would be an indirect buff to heavy armour. If you're lamenting the demise of precise then why not campaign for a buff to that trait?

This is one of those situations where theorycrafting and reall life butt heads. Yes you can get to a point on paper where precise>sharp with enough raid debuffs, but it's not real life. The best DPS in the best raids still go sharp because you just can't keep that scenario up enough of the time for precise to over take sharp throughout a 6 minute fight. Sharp>precise even in a really good raid.

I'll take your word on that cos I'm not a huge pve'r. What you say makes sense. The fact still stands though; unless penetration numbers mean something different than they did a year ago, I only have 1.8k more penetration than I did then, and I sure as hell invest more into it now than just a nirnhoned staff and 7/7 light.

Mettaricana

Buff others make precise increase crit chance and crit dmg. Make nirnhoned offer like 20% dmg increase to combat sharpened. Make nirn 20% spell pen and sharp 20% phsyical. Make charged reduce encgant cool down by half

Horker

Hello sharpened spriggans 2H sword, 5100sharpened+4000spriggans+2000 from champion points... dawnbombing inc.