Nerf Sharpened!

Alucardo

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lol.

Nerf the stupid resistances Dungeon mobs and bosses have and you wont NEED sharpened anymore, kill two birds with one stone.

Two birds with one stone? NERF STONES

KramUzibra

Umm....no plz d9 not nerf sharpened

Doctordarkspawn

Alucardo wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lol.

Nerf the stupid resistances Dungeon mobs and bosses have and you wont NEED sharpened anymore, kill two birds with one stone.

Two birds with one stone? NERF STONES

LET US BUY THEM AND THROW THEM AT PEOPLE.

I'D BUY -THAT- FOR A DOLLAR.

idk

Dubhliam wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

@Dubhliam

Your math is incorrect.

@ CP160 A gold reinforced shield with shield expert passive (most will have this except non CP campaigns) provides 3491 armor value and a gold one hand defensive provides 2580 defense.

Did you even read what you quote?

Also, I am not upset.
I spend 95% of my time in ESO tanking in group PvE content.

I am genuinely concerned about the incompetence of ZOS and the imbalance they create.

@Dubhliam Considering your comment about sharpened it seemed you did not understand much about the math behind it. Thought I needed to explain in detail here.

Most important was your comment that sharpened outperforms precise in all situations is false drives home the point that proper information is needed here.


This is from @Jeckll within this thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/rip-precise/

I think the chances to reduce a mobs resistance to 0 is far more real for Magicka DPS than it sounds like here.

5280 Major Breech
1320 Minor Breech
1946 Infused Crusher
3010 Alkosh
4884 Light Armor Passiv Concentration

= 16400 Spell Penetration without Sharpened.

At least for Dual Wield Magicka, that already points into 1 sword sharpened, 1 precise in raids.

As you get less than 50% from a Sharpened staff in this condition (especially considering the 10% Penetration passive with Destruction Staff abilities), chances are a Precise Staff is also more benefical in that case. Not going to do the complete math for you lovely magicka people, just something I thought of.

First of all, you list Alkosh as if it is omnipresent in every group.
Second, this only applies to magicka DDs, all stamina DDs still get the full benefit of Sharpened.

So... best case scenario is:
PvP
Sharpened outperforms ALWAYS
PvE
Sharpened underperforms for 50% of Damage Dealers IF certain conditions are met, meaning you have to have a group of elite players that understand the value of Alkosh and Power of the Light.

Basically, for a very specific build (DW magicka DD in an high-end optimal trial setting) the Sharpened trait wouldn't lose value, but Precise would gain some value - for that specific scenario.
In every other case, Sharpened outperforms.

Seems like a lot of hoops to jump though just to defend a trait that outperforms in almost every situation that is not ideal.

@Dubhliam

I merely demonstrated the initial OP claim is wrong. Plain and simple. And I never claimed Alkosh is omnipresent, lol. But a good raid group, a good raid leader, will work to coordinate such buffs when it matters. Considering the increase in dps Alkosh brings both stam and mele, it is wise to consider bringing it into the group.

Let me refresh your memory.

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes, I said the magic word.
NERF!

Ever since they buffed Sharpened, there is absolutely no choice for offensive traits. Sharpened outshines Precise and Nirnhoned in all situations.

Wollust

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lol.

Nerf the stupid resistances Dungeon mobs and bosses have and you wont NEED sharpened anymore, kill two birds with one stone.

Edit: Upon closer inspection this appears to be a 'nerf for PVP' thread since it specifically mentions the HA meta, and to that I say, bollocks. No. The world does not bend to PVP, nor should it. I am sure this will not be the first time you advocate for this OP, but it didn't happen then and It shouldn't happen -now-.

Heh. What a surprise something like that coming from you.
I love the fact that most balance stuff actually happens around PvP. Makes me happy that it makes you unhappy.

Oh and btw, bosses have like 18k resistance. Thats slightly more than a light armor build with armor buff. Can't say that's too much lol

Dubhliam

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lol.

Nerf the stupid resistances Dungeon mobs and bosses have and you wont NEED sharpened anymore, kill two birds with one stone.

Edit: Upon closer inspection this appears to be a 'nerf for PVP' thread since it specifically mentions the HA meta, and to that I say, bollocks. No. The world does not bend to PVP, nor should it. I am sure this will not be the first time you advocate for this OP, but it didn't happen then and It shouldn't happen -now-.

Lol, are you serious right now?

If anything this thread is about making Precise viable in PvE.
Sharpened would outperform in PvP no matter what.

idk

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Lol.

Nerf the stupid resistances Dungeon mobs and bosses have and you wont NEED sharpened anymore, kill two birds with one stone.

Edit: Upon closer inspection this appears to be a 'nerf for PVP' thread since it specifically mentions the HA meta, and to that I say, bollocks. No. The world does not bend to PVP, nor should it. I am sure this will not be the first time you advocate for this OP, but it didn't happen then and It shouldn't happen -now-.

There would be no other reason for this thread based on how it is worded other than a PvP based nerf. People die a lot and they want things nerfed.

PS4_ZeColmeia

I agree with sharpened being nerfed to about 3/4 the current strength and I would change LA trait to 20%

Enslaved

Sharpened is good. Light armor users can't simply wear rags and expect to repel steel sharp objects like they wear 25 inch tick panzer 9000 tank armor. Also, nerfing sharpened would result in much harder PvE. Please, do not nerf sharpened.

AzuraKin

its funny how so few people have read anything i posted here lets do some crazy theory crafting.

heavy armor 7p gold: = 14897 resist
armor buffs: = 5280
champion points (600) 5280 all points in warrior mage/phys resists
shield 1720
defending 2640
13029 mark of the pariah.
3870 warden monster set
1935 second set

so without weapon/shield 44291 resist at low health.
s/b would put that at 49941
d/w 49871
meaning 49941 is the highest resist before armor traits one could possibly get
most logical though especially at start of the fight is 38847 shield 38777 d/w.
meaning after the 35042 physical penetration possible to aquire, a full on tank would be left with only 3735 resist as dw, 3805 s/b and at low health 14829 d/w and 14899 s/b.this means at the strongest a tank could be would only reduce damage by 22% or turn a 10000 damage base ability to 5000 (pvp debuff) * .78 = 3900 damage.

if you cannot figure where i have gone with this. do some thinking for once. good day.

POps75p

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes, I said the magic word.
NERF!

Ever since they buffed Sharpened, there is absolutely no choice for offensive traits. Sharpened outshines Precise and Nirnhoned in all situations.
It is the reason why we have so many vMA whine threads, because people deconstruct Nirnhoned and Precise weapons.

The traits should be put into balance again, and I don't think buffs are the way to go, not with such a fast power creep we have.
Sharpened is seriously overpowered and deserves to be toned down.
I mean, seriously?! A 12% damage increase?! What the hell is ZOS thinking?!

Now, I know some would argue that the HA meta dictates for high penetration values. And it is partially true. But good players can and will adapt. With a nerfed Sharpened trait, people will turn to Mauls and Maces to combat HA. Also, let's not forget: those HA users will hit like wet noodles if their Sharpened weapons no longer wreck people.

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

In my opinion, Sharpened should be reworked to state:
"ignores 20% of the target's resistances (10% for one handed weapons)"

In PvE, those values would be 3700 resistance.
Against high armor targets in PvP, those values would go all the way up to 6400 ignored resistances for 32k armor targets.

Just for comparison, the trait would be just as useful as it is today against players with 25800 resistance, and would only gain more power against tanks.

I would rather see them bring the Nirnhoned and Precise up to the Level of Sharpened so that we could have 3 weapons types that would be very useful to choose from vs the one

Dubhliam

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
@Doctordarkspawn


Here is a visual representation of just how much the reworked Sharpened trait would impact damage.
Note: this chart is made under the assumption that the player has 50% Crit Chance and a 20% modifier to crits via 75 CP into Elfborn/Precise Strikes)

If you have any cognitive function left in your brain, you can clearly see that PvE would benefit most from this situation, because Precise becomes more viable at lower resistances (below 10k, which is highly achievable in group PvE situations).
In fact, Sharpened would become more powerful than it already is on high resistance targets (only found in PvP).

Meaning that HA in PvP would get an indirect nerf.
Precise would become more viable in PvE.
Light Armor would become more viable in PvP.

Enslaved

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
@Doctordarkspawn


Here is a visual representation of just how much the reworked Sharpened trait would impact damage.
Note: this chart is made under the assumption that the player has 50% Crit Chance and a 20% modifier to crits via 75 CP into Elfborn/Precise Strikes)

If you have any cognitive function left in your brain, you can clearly see that PvE would benefit most from this situation, because Precise becomes more viable at lower resistances (below 10k, which is highly achievable in group PvE situations).
In fact, Sharpened would become more powerful than it already is on high resistance targets (only found in PvP).

Meaning that HA in PvP would get an indirect nerf.
Precise would become more viable in PvE.
Light Armor would become more viable in PvP.

How is precise more viable in PvP according to this? I mean, against naked nords it might be, but against even 7 x medium its rubbish.

LegacyDM

Sharpened overrated in pvp. It doesn't do anything to shields. Guess what, 90% of the population is using some form of shields. No nerf. Just buff other traits to be comparable.

Doctordarkspawn

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
@Doctordarkspawn


Here is a visual representation of just how much the reworked Sharpened trait would impact damage.
Note: this chart is made under the assumption that the player has 50% Crit Chance and a 20% modifier to crits via 75 CP into Elfborn/Precise Strikes)

If you have any cognitive function left in your brain, you can clearly see that PvE would benefit most from this situation, because Precise becomes more viable at lower resistances (below 10k, which is highly achievable in group PvE situations).
In fact, Sharpened would become more powerful than it already is on high resistance targets (only found in PvP).

Meaning that HA in PvP would get an indirect nerf.
Precise would become more viable in PvE.
Light Armor would become more viable in PvP.

The problem here is that crit isn't condusive to sustained damage.

It's why Bow is viable in PVP, but a joke in PVE. Sustained damage is better given the time to kill is much longer.
The problem is bigger than the trait, the problem is that burst damage is near useless in PVE. This isn't going to change that, it'll just normalize the damage and...pretty much nothing will change. If you wanted to make Precise more viable, you need to give crits a way to gain equal penetration, or better damage than the penetration.

Like someone said before, there will allways be a dominant trait. So what's the point of these changes?

Destruent

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
@Doctordarkspawn


Here is a visual representation of just how much the reworked Sharpened trait would impact damage.
Note: this chart is made under the assumption that the player has 50% Crit Chance and a 20% modifier to crits via 75 CP into Elfborn/Precise Strikes)

If you have any cognitive function left in your brain, you can clearly see that PvE would benefit most from this situation, because Precise becomes more viable at lower resistances (below 10k, which is highly achievable in group PvE situations).
In fact, Sharpened would become more powerful than it already is on high resistance targets (only found in PvP).

Meaning that HA in PvP would get an indirect nerf.
Precise would become more viable in PvE.
Light Armor would become more viable in PvP.

The problem here is that crit isn't condusive to sustained damage.

It's why Bow is viable in PVP, but a joke in PVE. Sustained damage is better given the time to kill is much longer.
The problem is bigger than the trait, the problem is that burst damage is near useless in PVE. This isn't going to change that, it'll just normalize the damage and...pretty much nothing will change. If you wanted to make Precise more viable, you need to give crits a way to gain equal penetration, or better damage than the penetration.

Like someone said before, there will allways be a dominant trait. So what's the point of these changes?

crit has nothing to do with burst damage. Most people run high crit/critdmg builds in pve...

Doctordarkspawn

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
@Doctordarkspawn


Here is a visual representation of just how much the reworked Sharpened trait would impact damage.
Note: this chart is made under the assumption that the player has 50% Crit Chance and a 20% modifier to crits via 75 CP into Elfborn/Precise Strikes)

If you have any cognitive function left in your brain, you can clearly see that PvE would benefit most from this situation, because Precise becomes more viable at lower resistances (below 10k, which is highly achievable in group PvE situations).
In fact, Sharpened would become more powerful than it already is on high resistance targets (only found in PvP).

Meaning that HA in PvP would get an indirect nerf.
Precise would become more viable in PvE.
Light Armor would become more viable in PvP.

The problem here is that crit isn't condusive to sustained damage.

It's why Bow is viable in PVP, but a joke in PVE. Sustained damage is better given the time to kill is much longer.
The problem is bigger than the trait, the problem is that burst damage is near useless in PVE. This isn't going to change that, it'll just normalize the damage and...pretty much nothing will change. If you wanted to make Precise more viable, you need to give crits a way to gain equal penetration, or better damage than the penetration.

Like someone said before, there will allways be a dominant trait. So what's the point of these changes?

crit has nothing to do with burst damage. Most people run high crit/critdmg builds in pve...

Most people run high crit by default, yeah, but whether or not the focus is a ballance between weapon/spelldamage, crit, and penetration or just straight up crit depends on the content your running. Raiders run full crit, dungeon runners run a mixture, et cetera et cetera.

Just how much is run and how much is devoted to it depends entirely on what your doing. And the spread between the stats is generally why these changes would do basicly nothing, because the raiders can allready achieve this, and the dungeoneers spread around too much. Small gear and CP changes might occur. That's about all I forsee happening with these changes.

AtmaDarkwolf

I agree with this.. somewhat.

I still think nirn = sharpened for effect, just magicka based where sharp is physical. (IE Nirn should be the magic users sharpened and players would have to choose between the two)

I'd also go as far as to nerf sharpened more than you state to a 15% (7.5 on 1hand) from 20.

Would also like to see the OTHER weapon traits give a boost to make them more attractive.

Its annoying that with 9 traits, there is (in 95% of all cases, dps wise) only 1 is even considered except in the most extreme and specific of situations (IE : absolutely perfect raid group with 100% up time on all buffs = sharpened is no longer BiS)

But then, after watching the shitshow that is zos run the game and 'balanced' things, with how the traits are (and have been) so long, Its HIGHLY doubtful they want to touch this.

They prefer it being 1 of 9 worthwhile traits, cuz somehow their logic states 'the more one grinds, the more they dump cash into crowns'

We will NEVER see them actually do anything in this regard.

potirondb16_ESO

Why not switch thing around like this :

Precise (1pc) = 5% increase of critical chance (instead of 3,5%)
Sharpened (1pc) = 2160 penetration (Stay the same)
Infuse (1pc) = gets 2 enchant
Charged (1pc) = Enchant (infuse) + Proc rate (same ratio both bonus)
Defending (1pc) = Same
Ninhorned (1pc) = Increase crit chance (3.5%) Increase crit damage (3%)
Powered (1pc) = 4,5% (instead of 3,5%)
Training (1pc) = Same
Decisive (1pc) = 45% (instead of 17%)

That way,

- Precise is still huge if you plan on doing support (dps + heal) or if you want to do high burst.
- Sharpened is still the best DD
- Infuse becomes interesting for various playstyle
- Charged becomes stronger for high proc build
- Defending stay where he is
- Ninhorned claim back the main dps traits but is not overdoing
- Powered stay the best for healing
- Training stays
- Decisive becomes a really interesting option all around

Overall bonus for the mains traits
- Precise 5% increase of Crit. Ch. = 3,5% increase in dps but also works for heal
- Sharpened 4,2 % increase in damage
- Infuse, results may vary
- Charged, résults may vary
- defending, 4,2% hit reduction
- Ninhorned, 4,65% increase damage
- Powered, increase healing done by 4,5%
- Training ...
- Decisive resultat may vary

olsborg

Instead of nerfing sharpened, the other traits should be buffed to be competitive in different ways.

MidknightWolf

Ok here's a though, dont nerf sharpened. Instead buff the rest to bring it in line with it.

FriedEggSandwich

Sharpened is fine. Back in 1.7 I had a Nirnhoned staff and I remember having 16k penetration. Well these days I carry a sharpened staff and wear 5x spinners and have 3k pen from cp too and I have a total of 17.5k spell pen, just 1.5k more than I had way back when. Light armour wearers have always been fully penetrated, if you nerf sharpened now it will just buff heavy armour. Buff the other traits.

AzuraKin

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

I agree with this.. somewhat.

I still think nirn = sharpened for effect, just magicka based where sharp is physical. (IE Nirn should be the magic users sharpened and players would have to choose between the two)

I'd also go as far as to nerf sharpened more than you state to a 15% (7.5 on 1hand) from 20.

Would also like to see the OTHER weapon traits give a boost to make them more attractive.

Its annoying that with 9 traits, there is (in 95% of all cases, dps wise) only 1 is even considered except in the most extreme and specific of situations (IE : absolutely perfect raid group with 100% up time on all buffs = sharpened is no longer BiS)

But then, after watching the shitshow that is zos run the game and 'balanced' things, with how the traits are (and have been) so long, Its HIGHLY doubtful they want to touch this.

They prefer it being 1 of 9 worthwhile traits, cuz somehow their logic states 'the more one grinds, the more they dump cash into crowns'

We will NEVER see them actually do anything in this regard.

it used to be. potent nirncrux used to give 18% (9% one hand weapons) spell penetration and think it was 5% spell resist. which when it first came out everyone used it in pvp. then they changed it to what it is now cause apparently it was too op or something.

Ajaxduo

Sorry but this is just nonsense. Sharpened is far from OP, it is literally required due to resistance levels. If your group has enough debuffs you can roll with precise for more dps. If they didn't alter nirnhoned then that would be used instead. What they can do is buff up the other traits to make them align better in terms of dps and well done traits are just supposed to be trash (utility) to keep the rng element in the game for prolonging gameplay. Bump precise to 5% 1h/10% 2h, change decisive to crit multiplier, charged to cost reduction (excluding ulti) and nirnhoned should have a greater effect or be changed - it's weak in its current form.

Lylith

all these figures and graphs be damned.

buff precise and nirnhoned to be on par, make it real choice.

force the whingers to find something else to whine about.

Code2501

Or, just buff other traits.

Woeler

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

FriedEggSandwich

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

Woeler

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

I meant in pve. Well maybe it will be "nerf nirnhoned" I don't know. One thing is always going to be flat out the best in numbers and then we'll get "nerf X" threads again. That is assuming something will be changed, which will most definitely not happen.

AzuraKin

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'll wait for them to do this and then i'll wait for the "nerf precise" thread.

Because of the popularity of impen I think precise would need to be heavily buffed for those threads to appear. If there was a trait that increased crit damage, now that would ruffle some feathers.

lol you would have to buff crit damage by 100% 2hd, 50% 1hd weapons to make crit even possibly worthwhile in pvp.

10,000 damage hit multiplied by 1.5 crit damage + .18 (pure divine) shadow stone + .25 cp + 15% archer mind stealth bonus = 108% crit damage boost for nonnb. this puts damage at 20800 after impen 10400 so with nonnb's absolute max crit damage bonus they would only gain 400 damage from every 10k damage skills they fire off that crits. nbs would gain an additional 1k crit damage or 500 damage after impen. so a nb with archers mind, full divines in pvp would only gain a 9% damage boost on a crit over a noncrit at 100 points into cp crit buff.