Nerf Sharpened!

Dubhliam

Yes, I said the magic word.
NERF!

Ever since they buffed Sharpened, there is absolutely no choice for offensive traits. Sharpened outshines Precise and Nirnhoned in almost all situations.
It is the reason why we have so many vMA whine threads, because people deconstruct Nirnhoned and Precise weapons.

The traits should be put into balance again, and I don't think buffs are the way to go, not with such a fast power creep we have.
Sharpened is seriously overpowered and deserves to be toned down.
I mean, seriously?! A 12% damage increase?! What the hell is ZOS thinking?!

Now, I know some would argue that the HA meta dictates for high penetration values. And it is partially true. But good players can and will adapt. With a nerfed Sharpened trait, people will turn to Mauls and Maces to combat HA. Also, let's not forget: those HA users will hit like wet noodles if their Sharpened weapons no longer wreck people.

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

In my opinion, Sharpened should be reworked to state:
"ignores 20% of the target's resistances (10% for one handed weapons)"


In PvE, those values would be 3700 resistance.
Against high armor targets in PvP, those values would go all the way up to 6400 ignored resistances for 32k armor targets.

Just for comparison, the trait would be just as useful as it is today against players with 25800 resistance, and would only gain more power against tanks.

Alucardo

Dubhliam wrote: »

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

Just one useful trait, thanks. Decisions are hard.

DRXHarbinger

Nerf nerf posts on a Sunday morning. Christ is this another stam player in HA that got rekd bye eye of the storm? How about we nerf Cyro all together and you can only run around naked having fist fight?

TheDarkRuler

Buff the other traits instead of nerfing Sharpened.
See here in my thread for suggestions.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/303537/make-the-other-traits-great-as-well

redspecter23

A change is in order, but I feel a direct nerf is too harsh. Reduce the value on sharpened, while increasing precise and nirnhoned and place some more penetration passives in other skill lines to make up for the sharpened nerf. If the ZoS math experts have their numbers in order (unlike the person in charge of the last trait pass) then we could have 3 potential offensive traits that can all shine in their niche situations without one being so far ahead of the others that they become worthless by comparison.

leepalmer95

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes, I said the magic word.
NERF!

Ever since they buffed Sharpened, there is absolutely no choice for offensive traits. Sharpened outshines Precise and Nirnhoned in all situations.
It is the reason why we have so many vMA whine threads, because people deconstruct Nirnhoned and Precise weapons.

The traits should be put into balance again, and I don't think buffs are the way to go, not with such a fast power creep we have.
Sharpened is seriously overpowered and deserves to be toned down.
I mean, seriously?! A 12% damage increase?! What the hell is ZOS thinking?!

Now, I know some would argue that the HA meta dictates for high penetration values. And it is partially true. But good players can and will adapt. With a nerfed Sharpened trait, people will turn to Mauls and Maces to combat HA. Also, let's not forget: those HA users will hit like wet noodles if their Sharpened weapons no longer wreck people.

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

Pretty sure half the game will just quit so thats irrelevant to be honest.

Isn't 660 armour 1% dmg reduction? How is sharpened 12% dmg increase?

Also the heavy builds your referring too are the s&b heavy ones right? The ones with 2.5k pen via their 1 weapon? A sharpened nerf won't effect them at all, it'll just affect every other build trying to kill them because it will buff heavy indirectly.

idk

Sharpened was the only weapon trait that was unchanged. It is the same as it was when this game launched to my knowledge.

A little fact, precise can outperform sharpened in an organized raid group.

It appears by the last sentence OP may be raging about the challenge to get the sharpened weapon of choice.

Dubhliam

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

leepalmer95

Dubhliam wrote: »

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

Well dw is a very offensive weapon choice
S&b is defensive, even if using a defending 1h gives slightly more defence, the entire point of dw is to be offensive and the point of s&b is to use it's passives... and block.

Not to mention the complete different set of skills.

idk

Dubhliam wrote: »

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

@Dubhliam

Your math is incorrect.

@ CP160 A gold reinforced shield with shield expert passive (most will have this except non CP campaigns) provides 3491 armor value and a gold one hand defensive provides 2580 defense.

idk

What are you really upset about?

DRXHarbinger

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

@Dubhliam

Your math is incorrect.

@ CP160 A gold reinforced shield with shield expert passive (most will have this except non CP campaigns) provides 3491 armor value and a gold one hand defensive provides 2580 defense.

Nirnhoned actually gives slightly more on tool tips. Not sure why.

AzuraKin

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes, I said the magic word.
NERF!

Ever since they buffed Sharpened, there is absolutely no choice for offensive traits. Sharpened outshines Precise and Nirnhoned in all situations.
It is the reason why we have so many vMA whine threads, because people deconstruct Nirnhoned and Precise weapons.

The traits should be put into balance again, and I don't think buffs are the way to go, not with such a fast power creep we have.
Sharpened is seriously overpowered and deserves to be toned down.
I mean, seriously?! A 12% damage increase?! What the hell is ZOS thinking?!

Now, I know some would argue that the HA meta dictates for high penetration values. And it is partially true. But good players can and will adapt. With a nerfed Sharpened trait, people will turn to Mauls and Maces to combat HA. Also, let's not forget: those HA users will hit like wet noodles if their Sharpened weapons no longer wreck people.

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

actually armor lvl wont be increased. that came from zos when they got rid of vet ranks.

Dubhliam

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Another great example how they went overboard with the amount of buffs they gave to traits is the Defending trait.
An one handed defending weapon has greater defence than a reinforced shield.
Only after unlocking the CP passive do shields provide more defence.
Meaning that in no CP campaigns, you shouldn't carry a shield unless you are built around blocking a lot. A two handed defending weapon will always provide greater resistances.

But hey, people don't care for defense, so it's not an issue, right?

@Dubhliam

Your math is incorrect.

@ CP160 A gold reinforced shield with shield expert passive (most will have this except non CP campaigns) provides 3491 armor value and a gold one hand defensive provides 2580 defense.

Did you even read what you quote?

Also, I am not upset.
I spend 95% of my time in ESO tanking in group PvE content.

I am genuinely concerned about the incompetence of ZOS and the imbalance they create.

Vanzen

After months (years) of listening to the same songs w/o thinking I went on my S/B DK in pvp from Sharpened/Impen to Defending /Sturdy.

Oh boy ...
How my whole world changed and how pvp is so much more enjoyable.

And I still kill a few ...

In the Zerg and procs meta that is Ciro you want to survive.

That means pvping instead of playing "Horse simulator" online

Dubhliam

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes, I said the magic word.
NERF!

Ever since they buffed Sharpened, there is absolutely no choice for offensive traits. Sharpened outshines Precise and Nirnhoned in all situations.
It is the reason why we have so many vMA whine threads, because people deconstruct Nirnhoned and Precise weapons.

The traits should be put into balance again, and I don't think buffs are the way to go, not with such a fast power creep we have.
Sharpened is seriously overpowered and deserves to be toned down.
I mean, seriously?! A 12% damage increase?! What the hell is ZOS thinking?!

Now, I know some would argue that the HA meta dictates for high penetration values. And it is partially true. But good players can and will adapt. With a nerfed Sharpened trait, people will turn to Mauls and Maces to combat HA. Also, let's not forget: those HA users will hit like wet noodles if their Sharpened weapons no longer wreck people.

And before you all go into a rage mode, defending your hard earned Sharpened weapons, let me ask you a question:
When we get the gear increase to CP180 (and we will), would you like to farm for one particular trait, or have three useful traits to choose from?

Pretty sure half the game will just quit so thats irrelevant to be honest.

Isn't 660 armour 1% dmg reduction? How is sharpened 12% dmg increase?

Also the heavy builds your referring too are the s&b heavy ones right? The ones with 2.5k pen via their 1 weapon? A sharpened nerf won't effect them at all, it'll just affect every other build trying to kill them because it will buff heavy indirectly.

Yes, it is roughly 1% per 660 penetration.
Meaning 5160 penetration will lower the target's reststances by 8%.
The monsters in ESO have around 30% resistances.

In theory, if you skill does 1000 damage, it will do 700 damage to a monster.
If you have a sharpened weapon, you will do 780 damage instead.

Tell me, what is the difference in percentages between 700 and 780?

Vaoh

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sharpened was the only weapon trait that was unchanged. It is the same as it was when this game launched to my knowledge.

A little fact, precise can outperform sharpened in an organized raid group.

It appears by the last sentence OP may be raging about the challenge to get the sharpened weapon of choice.

Sharpened was changed, and is definitely not the same as it was at launch.

When the Dark Brotherhood "trait overhaul" happened, Sharpened was changed to a flat value. It used to be percent based.

The effects of this change were very predictable:
• Sharpened became much stronger, especially against Light Armor users in PvP
• Sharpened became the BiS PvE DPS trait

Precise only outperforms Sharpened when the enemy you are killing has had all of their resistances debuffed to 0. We are talking about debuffing ~18K resistance from bosses. Organized groups tend to not even do this because running Sharpened is simply easier and more convenient for everyone.

Unsent.Soul

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Nerf nerf posts on a Sunday morning. Christ is this another stam player in HA that got rekd bye eye of the storm? How about we nerf Cyro all together and you can only run around naked having fist fight?

If you stop assuming everyone is a stamina player then people might actually care about what you choose to post.

Dubhliam

Vaoh wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sharpened was the only weapon trait that was unchanged. It is the same as it was when this game launched to my knowledge.

A little fact, precise can outperform sharpened in an organized raid group.

It appears by the last sentence OP may be raging about the challenge to get the sharpened weapon of choice.

Sharpened was changed, and is definitely not the same as it was at launch.

When the Dark Brotherhood "trait overhaul" happened, Sharpened was changed to a flat value. It used to be percent based.

The effects of this change were very predictable:
• Sharpened became much stronger, especially against Light Armor users in PvP
• Sharpened became the BiS PvE DPS trait

Precise only outperforms Sharpened when the enemy you are killing has had all of their resistances debuffed to 0. We are talking about debuffing ~18K resistance from bosses. Organized groups tend to not even do this because running Sharpened is simply easier and more convenient for everyone.

Exactly this.
If ZOS was to revert the changes made to Sharpened back to percentage based, it would incentivise people to go back to light armor in PvP.
After all, this is exactly why the HA meta started in the first place.

nordsavage

Leave sharpened alone. Eventually we will have so much CP that that precise and others will be more prevalent. Remember every time you ask them to balance something you run a high risk of them messing it or something else up. Besides you should not base decisions on the few hundred who PvP compared to the thousands who PvE.

Dubhliam

nordsavage wrote: »

Leave sharpened alone. Eventually we will have so much CP that that precise and others will be more prevalent. Remember every time you ask them to balance something you run a high risk of them messing it or something else up. Besides you should not base decisions on the few hundred who PvP compared to the thousands who PvE.

I am comparing how it was before DB to how it was ever since.
This is not at all theoretical, the game worked with percentage based Sharpened trait for over two years.
And there were no complaints.

Tryxus

I miss those days when Magicka users needed Nirnhoned, Stamina SHarpened and Precise was still a competetive trait

Dubhliam

The rework (or revert) of Sharpened should revolve around the value of monster resistances, which is usually 18500.

At that value, the power of Sharpened versus Precise (or Nirnhoned) should be situational, it should not outshine those other traits in such a large margin.

Then, it could benefit more for targets with higher resistances (PvP tanks) to give it more of a use in PvP, leaving Precise a better option for PvE.

In my opinion, Sharpened should be reworked to state:
"ignores 20% of the target's resistances"

In PvE, those values would be 3700 resistance.
Against high armor targets in PvP, those values would go all the way up to 6400 ignored resistances for 32k armor targets.

Just for comparison, the trait would be just as useful as it is today against players with 25800 resistance, and would only gain more power against tanks.

Gargath

After this you will probably ask to nerf light armor's Concentration passive .

nordsavage

Dubhliam wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Leave sharpened alone. Eventually we will have so much CP that that precise and others will be more prevalent. Remember every time you ask them to balance something you run a high risk of them messing it or something else up. Besides you should not base decisions on the few hundred who PvP compared to the thousands who PvE.

I am comparing how it was before DB to how it was ever since.
This is not at all theoretical, the game worked with percentage based Sharpened trait for over two years.
And there were no complaints.

That does not change the fact that increasing CP caps will balance out at least for precise, charged and defending soon. Plus it will happen naturally instead of most likely having them mess it up. These are not the most talented game developers so don't pick at the duct tape holding the game together.

Dubhliam

Gargath wrote: »

After this you will probably ask to nerf light armor's Concentration passive .

Light Armor's 4884 Spell penetration is balanced against Medium Armor's 12% greater Weapon Damage.

Sharpened's 5160 Spell and Physical penetration is in no way balanced against the alternative traits.

nordsavage

Dubhliam wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

After this you will probably ask to nerf light armor's Concentration passive .

Light Armor's 4884 Spell penetration is balanced against Medium Armor's 12% greater Weapon Damage.

Sharpened's 5160 Spell and Physical penetration is in no way balanced against the alternative traits.

Caster can wear more armor. Your defenses and health capacity are in your own hands.

Dubhliam

nordsavage wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

After this you will probably ask to nerf light armor's Concentration passive .

Light Armor's 4884 Spell penetration is balanced against Medium Armor's 12% greater Weapon Damage.

Sharpened's 5160 Spell and Physical penetration is in no way balanced against the alternative traits.

Caster can wear more armor. Your defenses and health capacity are in your own hands.

Are you trying to say that Precise is viable in PvP?
Or even PvE for that matter?
What about Nirnhoned?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

The value of nirn and precise is that they both impact healing. Sharpened does nothing for that directly, unless he skill heals on a percentage of damage dealt, like Sweeps or funnel. You would unbalance healing if you upped nirn or precise. It is a tight rope to walk to get it right, I Do think that sharpened is too good for dps but I am also unsure how to make it right. It would certainly help the grind for vMA weapons if nirn and precise were not a 7% dps loss.

Bad_Company

All the cool kids like to cry for nerfs because they lack the will and the ability to look at the bigger picture. To achieve balance you can take many ways. Impairing what's currently the best option will only make one other option the best one.
That's not balance. L2ThinkTwice.

Rune_Relic

Although in principle I agree with everything @Dubhliam said...

I don't think the solution will fix the problem...just shift it elsewhere.
Nerf sharpened and everyone will probably use precise.....and change build to optimise that instead.
All we get is new FoTM builds.....no balance..and often a bigger power gap.

Comparing RNG combat with Passive combat is literally comparing apples with pears.
One will always be more effective than the other because incomparable items cant be balanced (as they are situational).

This is why I say the ONLY way to fix this is to have an equal and opposite penalty on all buffs (eg sharpened, precise).
That way any advantage you try to gain on your opponent, generates the same weakness within your own build.
This weakness/penalty has a far greater impact than the often subtle differences between precise and sharpened.
So which is slightly better at any moment in time, is inconsequential compared to the size of the equal and opposite penalties.

Thus you are no longer comparing apple and pears.
You are now simply choosing a preferred combat playstyle.
Passive, RNG, Instant, Endurance, etc...