Official Discussion Thread for Crown Crates

UrQuan

Clarkieson wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Clarkieson wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

Ok then, so heres a question. If anyone knows the answer please feel free to do so

Is there any item in these crates that is gamechanging or game breaking or even better than what you can obtain in the base game?

I am wondering what all the fuss is about.

I have read and heard a lot of unhappy comments from people and im slighlty confused as to why this is.

For many of us it isn't about what is and isn't in the crates at all. It's about how exploitative and unethical they are. It's possible to implement gambling crates in a fashion that will make ZOS more money without ripping off their customers and basically trying to do everything imaginable to trick them into blowing massive amounts of crowns and never getting what they wanted from them. A lot of changes need to be made to get these crates there.

As they are now (and as they will be after the changes Gina mentioned, assuming no other changes are made) the crates are a way to scam people and get a quick temporary cash infusion. The problem is that people don't like getting ripped off. People don't like companies that they see effectively stealing money from people - even if they themselves didn't lose any money.

If ZOS puts these crates in place without major changes, they'll initially make money off of them, but they'll also drive away loyal customers.

So maybe that is the intention

Make money, and drive existing customers away. Hope for new customers to spend lots of money.

There must be some logical thinking behind the business model, lets just say that the accountants at ZOS are competent for a second too. They must have financial projections for the crown store, they must be expecting to generate large amounts of revenue.

This has to be their plan, right?

I play the game to kill stuff and use the RNG system for "rewards". I have no interest in these crates or buffed XP scrolls and i guess ZOS expect that from most players.

The plan must be to lose players like me and find customers who only have an inrerest in spending money

I hope the bold part isn't their plan, because if it is then ESO is going under. Period. In any business it costs far more to acquire a new customer than to retain an existing customer. Unless there's something fundamentally wrong with their existing customer base (and sometimes there is), any business that chases new customers at the expense of their existing customers is highly likely to start hemorrhaging money.

This is especially true if the business includes a model that's not based on selling individual items that can potentially rely on "walk-by" traffic (whether that's potential customers walking by a physical location, or being driven to a website by ads, or whatever) who may buy one or two things and never come back. Businesses with subscription models who lose existing customers while chasing new ones are in serious trouble.

And here's the other thing about the Crown Crates. Any brand new customers who are trying out ESO might buy one or two of them just to see what they get. They won't buy more than that unless they decide they want to stick with the game long-term. So if the Crown Crates are driving away people who want(ed) to stick with ESO long term, then they're driving away their potential buyers.

What you're left with, as far as people who will keep buying Crown Crates, are the few whales who will drop tons of money on their current favorite game without a care, and people with gambling problems. I can't see how catering to those small demographics at the expense of loyal customers is anything but a recipe for failure.

JimT722

UrQuan wrote: »

Clarkieson wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Clarkieson wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

Ok then, so heres a question. If anyone knows the answer please feel free to do so

Is there any item in these crates that is gamechanging or game breaking or even better than what you can obtain in the base game?

I am wondering what all the fuss is about.

I have read and heard a lot of unhappy comments from people and im slighlty confused as to why this is.

For many of us it isn't about what is and isn't in the crates at all. It's about how exploitative and unethical they are. It's possible to implement gambling crates in a fashion that will make ZOS more money without ripping off their customers and basically trying to do everything imaginable to trick them into blowing massive amounts of crowns and never getting what they wanted from them. A lot of changes need to be made to get these crates there.

As they are now (and as they will be after the changes Gina mentioned, assuming no other changes are made) the crates are a way to scam people and get a quick temporary cash infusion. The problem is that people don't like getting ripped off. People don't like companies that they see effectively stealing money from people - even if they themselves didn't lose any money.

If ZOS puts these crates in place without major changes, they'll initially make money off of them, but they'll also drive away loyal customers.

So maybe that is the intention

Make money, and drive existing customers away. Hope for new customers to spend lots of money.

There must be some logical thinking behind the business model, lets just say that the accountants at ZOS are competent for a second too. They must have financial projections for the crown store, they must be expecting to generate large amounts of revenue.

This has to be their plan, right?

I play the game to kill stuff and use the RNG system for "rewards". I have no interest in these crates or buffed XP scrolls and i guess ZOS expect that from most players.

The plan must be to lose players like me and find customers who only have an inrerest in spending money

I hope the bold part isn't their plan, because if it is then ESO is going under. Period. In any business it costs far more to acquire a new customer than to retain an existing customer. Unless there's something fundamentally wrong with their existing customer base (and sometimes there is), any business that chases new customers at the expense of their existing customers is highly likely to start hemorrhaging money.

This is especially true if the business includes a model that's not based on selling individual items that can potentially rely on "walk-by" traffic (whether that's potential customers walking by a physical location, or being driven to a website by ads, or whatever) who may buy one or two things and never come back. Businesses with subscription models who lose existing customers while chasing new ones are in serious trouble.

And here's the other thing about the Crown Crates. Any brand new customers who are trying out ESO might buy one or two of them just to see what they get. They won't buy more than that unless they decide they want to stick with the game long-term. So if the Crown Crates are driving away people who want(ed) to stick with ESO long term, then they're driving away their potential buyers.

What you're left with, as far as people who will keep buying Crown Crates, are the few whales who will drop tons of money on their current favorite game without a care, and people with gambling problems. I can't see how catering to those small demographics at the expense of loyal customers is anything but a recipe for failure.

From what I read, One Tamriel is designed with the goal of attracting new players. In the interview Matt says Especially new players. The crown crates are coming with One Tamriel. I don't think any of this is a coincidence. I think many of the long term players like myself keep playing because we love elder scrolls. I subscribe, buy crowns, and dlc just to be supportive.

If their goal is to rely on new players it's not going to work. It's buy to play. This thing may work in f2p games but it won't here. Long term players like myself will disappear, recommendations to friends will stop. When that happens the community won't be strong and people will leave. One Tamriel isn't going to do what ZOS ultimately wants.

Adernath

silvereyes wrote: »

For me, there are three major issues.

1. Dishonesty / bad customer-service. ZOS already has a money-making model: subscriptions + crown store collectibles / utility items. It's an honest model that makes people happy. It allows ZOS to make money and a great game at the same time.
   
   The crown crates represent a departure from that model. They represent ZOS trying to hide the true cost of new cosmetics behind a game of chance specifically designed to extract money from players and not give them what they want, so that they keep playing.
   
   This makes people sad. It implies that ZOS cares more about money than they do about making a great game or about making their players happy.
2. Bad priorities. In the AMA yesterday, I lost track of the number of times ZOS staff said "we want to do that, but ran out of time. wait for a future update". Yet the crown crates have the most polished interface I've ever seen in ESO.
   
   ZOS management made the choice to pursue a greedy, dishonest marketing strategy at the expense of committing resources towards player pain points that are literally causing people to uninstall the game (guild trader flip time, magicka DK balance, Cyrodiil lag, etc.)
3. Flirting with P2W. The very concept of crates has a lot of baggage. People familiar with other MMOs are quick to note that crates and P2W often go hand-in-hand.
   
   And as awesome as it was for Gina to respond to the community yesterday, the very fact that they are even considering changing how powerful crown consumables are is a big red flag. It means they are way too close to the P2W threshold already, and pondering stepping over the line.

Exactly this!

Let's recall: ESO started with a B2P + a sub model ... I believe it was the most expensive mmo at that time. That didn't went well for long.... Now sub is only an option.

Since most players apparently did not subbed anymore (that's the reason why the playerbase stabilized), but still there is the need to earn money, the Crown Store opened. OK I can't blame them at this point. For me that was acceptable for the sake of development of new content and maintaining the servers.

But apparently ZOS did not changed their initial greedy mood and step by step we are now heading towards a P2W model. Let me list what happened - and what I believe will happen sooner or later:

1. First they introduced the 'limited time' offers in the store.
   
2. Gambling boxes will be introduced. No one knows at this point exactly how it will finally be implemented (the decision to implement them seem to have been made long time ago). But at start it doesn't matter much, as soon as they are in the game, they will stay.
   
3. Now comes the important point: No matter how it will be implemented, it will be in such a way that it generates more money. They can now easily tweak the gamble box drop rates, the loot inside, put exclusive items in the boxes, etc. etc. It will be attractive enough for you to spend your money sooner or later. This way of subtle control is exactly why this gambling box system is introduced. And those of you who think that any drop chances will be published are very naive...
   
4. Then the borderline to pay to win gets smaller and smaller: The mats inside the shop or the boxes might either become stronger than what you can make in-game or the ones you can make in-game will take ages to make. Long time to produce strong and useful mats in-game and subtle drop rates in boxes are then the best way to introduce a P2W system the smooth way as soon as you know that you can purchase them outright. And yet there are still some people left over telling its still not P2W, because you might be able to produce everything in-game, just need to play 'a bit' longer ...... yey! But that amount of people gets smaller and smaller.
   
5. Finally some mats in those boxes are made tradeable ... and whoops we have full P2W. Omg how did that happen?

The question is whether we are willing to draw the red line or not. And for me these gambling boxes are the red line no matter how they will be implemented, since their purpose is only to generate more money.

This greedy mood ruins the reputation of the game.

I am sorry ZOS that I have to use these harsh words, but in the end you want us to decide with our wallets, don't you? Or does there still exist some love for the players of your game?

shootyoureyeout

phreatophile wrote: »

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

What if X number of crates were given as part of the subscription each month?

phreatophile wrote: »

You known, this would be a great cover for folks who don't want that electro-pebble mount to act like a big "^Kick me^" sign wherever they ride it. No, I didn't spend $300US for this flashy mount, I won it with subscription crates!

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

I'm telling you...throwing subscribers a few crates could solve SO many issues so many people have with these things without having to change the already-established cash shop RNG crate model. Make it happen, ZOS pretty please!

Slurg wrote: »

No, adding whatever extra pittance of crates (you coud buy buy three a month with your existing subscription crowns) to the subscription certainly does not solve "SO many issues people have". Maybe just one, for the people who already have subs who want to gamble for random things for free instead of buying the things they want.

For my part, I think "free" crates don't solve any of our issues but solve a big one for ZOS. As cool as the electro-pebble mounts look, I'd be embarrassed to be seen on one. It would be advertising stupidity or an addictive personality. As soon as they provide a second avenue for getting these items, the "I wouldn't be caught dead on one of these" factor is gone.

We're in the throw the folks a couple of bones until they shut up phase of this debacle and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this was one of them. Pay close attention to the drop rate, the gem/duplicate rate, and the gem/consumables rate. Those are the things that matter and the factors ZOS will be most resistant to making any more than token changes to. Converting potions for gems (rate?), some as yet unexplained change to player made consumables, and a (probably) token change to drop rates for high end items are all that's been offered up so far. It is not even close to enough.

They've offered to mix a 1/2 cup of ice cream into a cup of poo, the end result will resemble the latter of the two not the former.

Totally see your point, and it's a fair one so I thank you for your feedback! Just trying to throw some other possible ideas into the mix that 100% don't involve 1) ZOS getting rid of crates alltogether and 2) ZOS getting rid of exclusives in crates...because neither of those things are going to happen. Just thought maybe we could discuss some ways that people who already contribute money to the game might get opportunities to earn them.

VerboseQuips

Just a quick word...

I have been a vehement opponent of the Crates. When they hit the PTS, I started to prepare myself, psychologically, to cancel my subscription and live without ESO - even to sacrifice a chance to see their version of Vvaardenfell. After Gina Bruno's message, I was a bit reassured, and very willing to be cautiously optimistic about the crates and what they could become after being reworked (for I hate what they are now). I am not sure I will keep my subscription, and am very cautious, but I was less angry against ZOS. Now I have seen the arguments of many people stating why those steps that ZOS is taking are far from enough to make the system acceptable, and I must say, those arguments make sense.

The fact that I was so easily quieted by their statement makes me worried: maybe I am one of those who are wayyyyy to sensitive to the Crates' predatory model. I think I should be very careful if I don't want those Crates to harm me...

JimT722

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

What if X number of crates were given as part of the subscription each month?

phreatophile wrote: »

You known, this would be a great cover for folks who don't want that electro-pebble mount to act like a big "^Kick me^" sign wherever they ride it. No, I didn't spend $300US for this flashy mount, I won it with subscription crates!

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

I'm telling you...throwing subscribers a few crates could solve SO many issues so many people have with these things without having to change the already-established cash shop RNG crate model. Make it happen, ZOS pretty please!

Slurg wrote: »

No, adding whatever extra pittance of crates (you coud buy buy three a month with your existing subscription crowns) to the subscription certainly does not solve "SO many issues people have". Maybe just one, for the people who already have subs who want to gamble for random things for free instead of buying the things they want.

For my part, I think "free" crates don't solve any of our issues but solve a big one for ZOS. As cool as the electro-pebble mounts look, I'd be embarrassed to be seen on one. It would be advertising stupidity or an addictive personality. As soon as they provide a second avenue for getting these items, the "I wouldn't be caught dead on one of these" factor is gone.

We're in the throw the folks a couple of bones until they shut up phase of this debacle and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this was one of them. Pay close attention to the drop rate, the gem/duplicate rate, and the gem/consumables rate. Those are the things that matter and the factors ZOS will be most resistant to making any more than token changes to. Converting potions for gems (rate?), some as yet unexplained change to player made consumables, and a (probably) token change to drop rates for high end items are all that's been offered up so far. It is not even close to enough.

They've offered to mix a 1/2 cup of ice cream into a cup of poo, the end result will resemble the latter of the two not the former.

Totally see your point, and it's a fair one so I thank you for your feedback! Just trying to throw some other possible ideas into the mix that 100% don't involve 1) ZOS getting rid of crates alltogether and 2) ZOS getting rid of exclusives in crates...because neither of those things are going to happen. Just thought maybe we could discuss some ways that people who already contribute money to the game might get opportunities to earn them.

The bare minimum would be to remove all exclusive items except the atronach and auras. If that doesn't happen I won't be able to think about eso from now on without rage and frustration.

Edit. I would still be very disappointed in ZOS though

MadLarkin

Gamers are at this point used to paying pretty much whatever it takes in order to achieve their desired experience. That is part of the reason why these types of systems have become so popular. And have no illusions everyone, this was planned. Things like this don't happen on a whim. They knew there would be backlash. That's why they announced this, let us see how bad it was for ourselves, and then let us stew for a bit before discussing changes. Its supposed to seem as though they're taking our best interest and feedback into consideration, when in fact, they're still taking a mile and only giving back a few feet.

Systems like these exist for one singular reason. To squeeze as much money out of the playerbase as possible. They aren't for our benefit. They could add these items in a rotation to the crown store, or start offering things like the crafting bag as a one-time purchase, or take a half-dozen other paths to new revenue streams before arriving at this. But those other methods won't create the whales they're so determined to bring to ESO. I love the marketing 101 speak in the interviews as well. Implying that this system is for the players, to give us that oh so elusive chance at getting retired and rare items. There's a very old expression of which I am reminded. Don't pee on my back and tell me its raining.

I honestly wish the higher up that pushed this forward would have the guts to actually have an honest discussion with us about it. At least if they were to look us in the eye and say "we want as much money as possible from you" there would be some sort of honesty at play. Instead, he or she has elected to create this battle, and then place the community managers and devs right on the front lines to face the fire. I find it to be cowardly.

ESO is the first MMO my wife would play with me. We finally built her a gaming PC last year. We were both going to buy the DLC bundles once Gold was released and for the first time in my 25 years of gaming I was considering paying a monthly subscription. Not anymore. Not while this system is in place. ESO just went from our new long-term main title to a game that we'll login to occasionally in order to run a few quests. Maybe hit max level someday. But ZOS certainly won't see another dime from me.

Lumenn

Clarkieson wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

Ok then, so heres a question. If anyone knows the answer please feel free to do so

Is there any item in these crates that is gamechanging or game breaking or even better than what you can obtain in the base game?

I am wondering what all the fuss is about.

I have read and heard a lot of unhappy comments from people and im slighlty confused as to why this is.

1. First there are many of us that have experience with this. Crates being introduced(with cosmetics only) and slowly turning into p2w. Surprisingly(?) Zos jumped the gun and even before launch threw out a better potion(experience) a minor item but at the least that should be a huge red flag. "How soon before items in crates are better than in game?" There wasn't even a build up. BAM before release. More to come?

2. There's an old saying "i don't mind a man making a living off me, but don't try to make a killing". Zos isn't trying to sell fair quality items/product (digital) for a fair cost. They are trying to squeeze as much extra as they can while giving you junk items, HOPING you get a good one. And for a game who's rng can be...quite bad(just do a search on rng) that's asking for an absurd amount of trust. Especially with the misdirecting doublespeak becoming so obvious.

3. Quality. This crate system has so much spit and polish to it, yet just in the last few months we've had cheat engines, bugs, exploits, a whole dlc that people have paid for esp on Xbox 1 that was unplayable(zos really said to stay away from it) a Breton costume that MANY were unhappy about(couldn't take a day or two and slim it down zos? It makes characters fat) and seemingly increasing crashing. again paying customers. Already the game has been suffering while they turn out a polished money grabbing system which one could say that that shows where their priorities are. I'll say it again, even BEFORE operation cash cow is released the game suffers while loot box system gets fluff. It has already begun.

These are just the first things that popped in my head. I'm sure there more(some worry about addiction etc) but I'm on my phone so I'm not listing EVERYTHING. If you've been reading you know what the complaints are.

Truthsnark

As people are getting so exercised about the items they see available for Crown Gem purchase right now, I would like clarity on this and I apologize if it was already covered; if there is an answer please just point me in the right direction.

Zenimax stated that the only items that will be locked behind the Crates are the themed items for that Crown Crate offering. Everything not a themed item in the crates will be available in the Crown Store, either all the time (ex: potions) or as a limited time offering.

So in that light, it seems like a flawed assumption that just because one sees something available for Crown Gem purchase, that means it's "locked" behind the Crates (particularly so since this is the PTS and everything is subject to change). Has Zenimax stated clearly and concisely what a "themed item" is considered to be - for example in these Storm Atronach crates on the PTS, logically one would consider the atronach mounts, the atronach juggling balls emote, and the atronach aura memento to be themed offerings. Does Zenimax consider anything else to be part of this theme?

JimT722

Truthsnark wrote: »

As people are getting so exercised about the items they see available for Crown Gem purchase right now, I would like clarity on this and I apologize if it was already covered; if there is an answer please just point me in the right direction.

Zenimax stated that the only items that will be locked behind the Crates are the themed items for that Crown Crate offering. Everything not a themed item in the crates will be available in the Crown Store, either all the time (ex: potions) or as a limited time offering.

So in that light, it seems like a flawed assumption that just because one sees something available for Crown Gem purchase, that means it's "locked" behind the Crates (particularly so since this is the PTS and everything is subject to change). Has Zenimax stated clearly and concisely what a "themed item" is considered to be - for example in these Storm Atronach crates on the PTS, logically one would consider the atronach mounts, the atronach juggling balls emote, and the atronach aura memento to be themed offerings. Does Zenimax consider anything else to be part of this theme?

Matt said he meant to say themed and other items. Anything can be exclusive.

UrQuan

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

What if X number of crates were given as part of the subscription each month?

phreatophile wrote: »

You known, this would be a great cover for folks who don't want that electro-pebble mount to act like a big "^Kick me^" sign wherever they ride it. No, I didn't spend $300US for this flashy mount, I won it with subscription crates!

shootyoureyeout wrote: »

I'm telling you...throwing subscribers a few crates could solve SO many issues so many people have with these things without having to change the already-established cash shop RNG crate model. Make it happen, ZOS pretty please!

Slurg wrote: »

No, adding whatever extra pittance of crates (you coud buy buy three a month with your existing subscription crowns) to the subscription certainly does not solve "SO many issues people have". Maybe just one, for the people who already have subs who want to gamble for random things for free instead of buying the things they want.

For my part, I think "free" crates don't solve any of our issues but solve a big one for ZOS. As cool as the electro-pebble mounts look, I'd be embarrassed to be seen on one. It would be advertising stupidity or an addictive personality. As soon as they provide a second avenue for getting these items, the "I wouldn't be caught dead on one of these" factor is gone.

We're in the throw the folks a couple of bones until they shut up phase of this debacle and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this was one of them. Pay close attention to the drop rate, the gem/duplicate rate, and the gem/consumables rate. Those are the things that matter and the factors ZOS will be most resistant to making any more than token changes to. Converting potions for gems (rate?), some as yet unexplained change to player made consumables, and a (probably) token change to drop rates for high end items are all that's been offered up so far. It is not even close to enough.

They've offered to mix a 1/2 cup of ice cream into a cup of poo, the end result will resemble the latter of the two not the former.

Totally see your point, and it's a fair one so I thank you for your feedback! Just trying to throw some other possible ideas into the mix that 100% don't involve 1) ZOS getting rid of crates alltogether and 2) ZOS getting rid of exclusives in crates...because neither of those things are going to happen. Just thought maybe we could discuss some ways that people who already contribute money to the game might get opportunities to earn them.

The bold part is important IMO.

I'd vastly prefer it if ZOS scrapped the idea of Crown Crates entirely, but realistically that won't happen. So the best we can do here is discuss ideas for things they could change in order to make them acceptable. I know that's the approach I've been trying to take, and I see a lot of other people in this thread (including yourself) taking the same approach.

Not all of the ideas we come up with while discussing this may actually be realistic, and not all of them may actually make things better (or at least not make things sufficiently better). That's why discussion and feedback is important.

Rosveen

JimT722 wrote: »

Truthsnark wrote: »

As people are getting so exercised about the items they see available for Crown Gem purchase right now, I would like clarity on this and I apologize if it was already covered; if there is an answer please just point me in the right direction.

Zenimax stated that the only items that will be locked behind the Crates are the themed items for that Crown Crate offering. Everything not a themed item in the crates will be available in the Crown Store, either all the time (ex: potions) or as a limited time offering.

So in that light, it seems like a flawed assumption that just because one sees something available for Crown Gem purchase, that means it's "locked" behind the Crates (particularly so since this is the PTS and everything is subject to change). Has Zenimax stated clearly and concisely what a "themed item" is considered to be - for example in these Storm Atronach crates on the PTS, logically one would consider the atronach mounts, the atronach juggling balls emote, and the atronach aura memento to be themed offerings. Does Zenimax consider anything else to be part of this theme?

Matt said he meant to say themed and other items. Anything can be exclusive.

Indeed. And it's quite telling that Zenimax continously refuses to clarify if the items currently in the crown crates on PTS will be exclusive or not, despite several questions directed both at Gina here and at Matt in the AMA.

JimT722

Rosveen wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Truthsnark wrote: »

As people are getting so exercised about the items they see available for Crown Gem purchase right now, I would like clarity on this and I apologize if it was already covered; if there is an answer please just point me in the right direction.

Zenimax stated that the only items that will be locked behind the Crates are the themed items for that Crown Crate offering. Everything not a themed item in the crates will be available in the Crown Store, either all the time (ex: potions) or as a limited time offering.

So in that light, it seems like a flawed assumption that just because one sees something available for Crown Gem purchase, that means it's "locked" behind the Crates (particularly so since this is the PTS and everything is subject to change). Has Zenimax stated clearly and concisely what a "themed item" is considered to be - for example in these Storm Atronach crates on the PTS, logically one would consider the atronach mounts, the atronach juggling balls emote, and the atronach aura memento to be themed offerings. Does Zenimax consider anything else to be part of this theme?

Matt said he meant to say themed and other items. Anything can be exclusive.

Indeed. And it's quite telling that Zenimax continously refuses to clarify if the items currently in the crown crates on PTS will be exclusive or not, despite several questions directed both at Gina here and at Matt in the AMA.

These crown crates diminish the prospect of future dlc. With anything possibly exclusive what about housing. I don't like where this is going and if it goes this course I doubt I will be here to find out.

JKorr

There are buildings in the game now that have the tag "House".

I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out the "key" or the "deed" will be in a gamble box.

You might be able to get one by questing or paying in-game gold, but the crown store and rngesus boxes will be involved somehow.

Elsonso

Rosveen wrote: »

And it's quite telling that Zenimax continously refuses to clarify if the items currently in the crown crates on PTS will be exclusive or not, despite several questions directed both at Gina here and at Matt in the AMA.

It is possible that the Crown Store is not part of what Firor and the studio do. They might be able to answer questions, but this might be Bethesda's baby, as the company responsible for marketing and sales.

JimT722

JKorr wrote: »

There are buildings in the game now that have the tag "House".

I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out the "key" or the "deed" will be in a gamble box.

You might be able to get one by questing or paying in-game gold, but the crown store and rngesus boxes will be involved somehow.

Don't worry, any day now they will put our fears to rest.

Anyone else hear... Crickets

nimander99

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Are you guys fully aware that none of us actually want this implemented? I mean, I know you guys read these threads and reddit, I know you care about the community of this game and I know you all, plus probably every other Zenimax employee cares about this game.

Its been made resoundingly clear that we would prefer not to have this system at all! Is ESO going broke? Are we bleeding players? Are revenue expectations not being hit? Did the Crafting Bags not increase subscriptions considerably? Is the game on the razors edge of shutting down and this is a last ditch effort to make enough money to keep the lights on?

Now everyone is accepting this, now people are trying to compromise with you by saying things like can't I just pay $100 up front for a mount... Look what is happening! This is not good.

I am feeling manipulated and punched in the face. Now people are begging for less consumables or more gems for dup's... We have now been inured to this 'content' and it makes me sad. Because I have seen what happens to other mmo's that go this route, their communities die a slow death.

I know this is a bit mellow dramatic, but there it is. And finally my last question:

Why?

JimT722

nimander99 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Are you guys fully aware that none of us actually want this implemented? I mean, I know you guys read these threads and reddit, I know you care about the community of this game and I know you all, plus probably every other Zenimax employee cares about this game.

Its been made resoundingly clear that we would prefer not to have this system at all! Is ESO going broke? Are we bleeding players? Are revenue expectations not being hit? Did the Crafting Bags not increase subscriptions considerably? Is the game on the razors edge of shutting down and this is a last ditch effort to make enough money to keep the lights on?

Now everyone is accepting this, now people are trying to compromise with you by saying things like can't I just pay $100 up front for a mount... Look what is happening! This is not good.

I am feeling manipulated and punched in the face. Now people are begging for less consumables or more gems for dup's... We have now been inured to this 'content' and it makes me sad. Because I have seen what happens to other mmo's that go this route, their communities die a slow death.

I know this is a bit mellow dramatic, but there it is. And finally my last question:

Why?

Eso has a very passionate community. If a large portion said we are tired of being treated this way by game developers and ceased their support, there would likely still be enough whales to break even. I thought ZOS didn't want this kind of game and it's unfortunate I was wrong.

Lumenn

nimander99 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Are you guys fully aware that none of us actually want this implemented? I mean, I know you guys read these threads and reddit, I know you care about the community of this game and I know you all, plus probably every other Zenimax employee cares about this game.

Its been made resoundingly clear that we would prefer not to have this system at all! Is ESO going broke? Are we bleeding players? Are revenue expectations not being hit? Did the Crafting Bags not increase subscriptions considerably? Is the game on the razors edge of shutting down and this is a last ditch effort to make enough money to keep the lights on?

Now everyone is accepting this, now people are trying to compromise with you by saying things like can't I just pay $100 up front for a mount... Look what is happening! This is not good.

I am feeling manipulated and punched in the face. Now people are begging for less consumables or more gems for dup's... We have now been inured to this 'content' and it makes me sad. Because I have seen what happens to other mmo's that go this route, their communities die a slow death.

I know this is a bit mellow dramatic, but there it is. And finally my last question:

Why?

Zos has already invested time and money into this. It takes a HUGE effort(and a LOT of media) to get a company to admit fault, much less loss of revenue(just look at the ME3 fiasco)

It is so much more cost effective to run a cash grab than develop new dlcs, classes, abilities, and the never ending struggle for balance. Why spend ten dollars and profit $3 when you can spend $3 and profit $10?

Many companies/investors don't look for long term. It isn't cost efficient. You have to build trust with your customers with integrity and quality. Quarterly investments pay off better. Worst comes to worst cut payroll to the bone to make your quarter.

Zos WILL go through with this. It WILL be purely for the investors benifit. Anything we "get" as a compromise will be because of a few employees trying to help, fear of losing profits should they misplay the manipulation, or it doesn't cost anything so they "give" us a bone.

SOME of the employees care about the game, us, and the community. The company cares about the numbers.

Edit: wanted to add, you have to remember, THEY can walk away at any time. If the numbers are not there, close shop and move to the next project(an earlier post that got out of hand showed that much) investors, programmers/developers etc all can close up or at best leave a couple of people to turn the lights on and leave. WE are emotionally invested, "THEY" will just move on.(with a resume showing profits until close no doubt)

jeevin

VerboseQuips wrote: »

Just a quick word...

I have been a vehement opponent of the Crates. When they hit the PTS, I started to prepare myself, psychologically, to cancel my subscription and live without ESO - even to sacrifice a chance to see their version of Vvaardenfell. After Gina Bruno's message, I was a bit reassured, and very willing to be cautiously optimistic about the crates and what they could become after being reworked (for I hate what they are now). I am not sure I will keep my subscription, and am very cautious, but I was less angry against ZOS. Now I have seen the arguments of many people stating why those steps that ZOS is taking are far from enough to make the system acceptable, and I must say, those arguments make sense.

The fact that I was so easily quieted by their statement makes me worried: maybe I am one of those who are wayyyyy to sensitive to the Crates' predatory model. I think I should be very careful if I don't want those Crates to harm me...

The statement Gina made basically said "we're gonna *** you. But because you're all upset about it, we're just gonna *** you a little softer". The scary thing is how little thought must have gone into the proposed changes to actually risk PTW vs crafted food. Who is actually coming up with this crap?

There is NO good implementation of these predatory crown crates. They are, by design, trying to get players to pay hundreds of dollars for digital items that they may otherwise only get $10-$20 for. On top of that is the fact game development is stifled as more and more resources are devoted to making quick cash grabs.

These rng boxes are just plain wrong on so many levels. Shame on @ZOS

JimT722

jeevin wrote: »

VerboseQuips wrote: »

Just a quick word...

I have been a vehement opponent of the Crates. When they hit the PTS, I started to prepare myself, psychologically, to cancel my subscription and live without ESO - even to sacrifice a chance to see their version of Vvaardenfell. After Gina Bruno's message, I was a bit reassured, and very willing to be cautiously optimistic about the crates and what they could become after being reworked (for I hate what they are now). I am not sure I will keep my subscription, and am very cautious, but I was less angry against ZOS. Now I have seen the arguments of many people stating why those steps that ZOS is taking are far from enough to make the system acceptable, and I must say, those arguments make sense.

The fact that I was so easily quieted by their statement makes me worried: maybe I am one of those who are wayyyyy to sensitive to the Crates' predatory model. I think I should be very careful if I don't want those Crates to harm me...

The statement Gina made basically said "we're gonna *** you. But because you're all upset about it, we're just gonna *** you a little softer". The scary thing is how little thought must have gone into the proposed changes to actually risk PTW vs crafted food. Who is actually coming up with this crap?

There is NO good implementation of these predatory crown crates. They are, by design, trying to get players to pay hundreds of dollars for digital items that they may otherwise only get $10-$20 for. On top of that is the fact game development is stifled as more and more resources are devoted to making quick cash grabs.

These rng boxes are just plain wrong on so many levels. Shame on @ZOS

This 100%. It is going to happen in game after game until the consumers wise up.

Panda_iMunch

From a moral perspective, crates are fine as long as they don't put too many exclusive items in there. Timed exclusives I can handle, but if there was like 20 permanent exclusives? Nah, would seem pretty bogus. Doesn't seem to be the case atm so i'm still hopeful.

On the business side, the drop chance on good items is too low as well as the amount of gems you get from repeat items. The amount of consumables is pretty ridiculous for me as I'm maxed out over here, so they're useless to me, but I hear they're changing that so you can get gems for the consumables, pretty nice.

So in all, as long as they keep the price low, the drop chance decently high, and limit the amount of exclusives, I could see this being a interesting feature to spend unused crowns from subs.

JimT722

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

From a moral perspective, crates are fine as long as they don't put too many exclusive items in there. Timed exclusives I can handle, but if there was like 20 permanent exclusives? Nah, would seem pretty bogus. Doesn't seem to be the case atm so i'm still hopeful.

On the business side, the drop chance on good items is too low as well as the amount of gems you get from repeat items. The amount of consumables is pretty ridiculous for me as I'm maxed out over here, so they're useless to me, but I hear they're changing that so you can get gems for the consumables, pretty nice.

So in all, as long as they keep the price low, the drop chance decently high, and limit the amount of exclusives, I could see this being a interesting feature to spend unused crowns from subs.

What this leads to.

Character cosmetics. Mostly in the box

Housing. Mostly in the box

Reduced dlc content

Enjoyment feels walked off

When you feel you are being ripped of because you can't buy the things you want it kills your enjoyment. They already came out swinging with the exclusive items and it's down hill from here. When it feels a game company is on a mission to rip you off it kinda sours the experience. That's exactly what rng crates were designed to do in other games and ZOS is copying them exactly.

Panda_iMunch

JimT722 wrote: »

What this leads to.

Character cosmetics. Mostly in the box

Housing. Mostly in the box

Reduced dlc content

Enjoyment feels walked off

When you feel you are being ripped of because you can't buy the things you want it kills your enjoyment. They already came out swinging with the exclusive items and it's down hill from here. When it feels a game company is on a mission to rip you off it kinda sours the experience. That's exactly what rng crates were designed to do in other games and ZOS is copying them exactly.

Like I said, as long as they keep the amount of cosmetic items limited, it'll be fine. I doubt a system like this will lead to reduced dlc, if anything, no one wanting to pay a sub did that. If they made them timed exclusives, maybe that would appease some people.

Abeille

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

What this leads to.

Character cosmetics. Mostly in the box

Housing. Mostly in the box

Reduced dlc content

Enjoyment feels walked off

When you feel you are being ripped of because you can't buy the things you want it kills your enjoyment. They already came out swinging with the exclusive items and it's down hill from here. When it feels a game company is on a mission to rip you off it kinda sours the experience. That's exactly what rng crates were designed to do in other games and ZOS is copying them exactly.

Like I said, as long as they keep the amount of cosmetic items limited, it'll be fine. I doubt a system like this will lead to reduced dlc, if anything, no one wanting to pay a sub did that. If they made them timed exclusives, maybe that would appease some people.

I saw this happen way too many times before to believe that this will not lead to reduced DLC.

I really wish they would announce Vvardenfell already, and make it a full-fledged Orsinium-like DLC. That would surely make me worry a little less.

JimT722

Abeille wrote: »

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

What this leads to.

Character cosmetics. Mostly in the box

Housing. Mostly in the box

Reduced dlc content

Enjoyment feels walked off

When you feel you are being ripped of because you can't buy the things you want it kills your enjoyment. They already came out swinging with the exclusive items and it's down hill from here. When it feels a game company is on a mission to rip you off it kinda sours the experience. That's exactly what rng crates were designed to do in other games and ZOS is copying them exactly.

Like I said, as long as they keep the amount of cosmetic items limited, it'll be fine. I doubt a system like this will lead to reduced dlc, if anything, no one wanting to pay a sub did that. If they made them timed exclusives, maybe that would appease some people.

I saw this happen way too many times before to believe that this will not lead to reduced DLC.

I really wish they would announce Vvardenfell already, and make it a full-fledged Orsinium-like DLC. That would surely make me worry a little less.

My experience as well

Clarkieson

Lumenn wrote: »

Clarkieson wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

Ok then, so heres a question. If anyone knows the answer please feel free to do so

Is there any item in these crates that is gamechanging or game breaking or even better than what you can obtain in the base game?

I am wondering what all the fuss is about.

I have read and heard a lot of unhappy comments from people and im slighlty confused as to why this is.

1. First there are many of us that have experience with this. Crates being introduced(with cosmetics only) and slowly turning into p2w. Surprisingly(?) Zos jumped the gun and even before launch threw out a better potion(experience) a minor item but at the least that should be a huge red flag. "How soon before items in crates are better than in game?" There wasn't even a build up. BAM before release. More to come?

2. There's an old saying "i don't mind a man making a living off me, but don't try to make a killing". Zos isn't trying to sell fair quality items/product (digital) for a fair cost. They are trying to squeeze as much extra as they can while giving you junk items, HOPING you get a good one. And for a game who's rng can be...quite bad(just do a search on rng) that's asking for an absurd amount of trust. Especially with the misdirecting doublespeak becoming so obvious.

3. Quality. This crate system has so much spit and polish to it, yet just in the last few months we've had cheat engines, bugs, exploits, a whole dlc that people have paid for esp on Xbox 1 that was unplayable(zos really said to stay away from it) a Breton costume that MANY were unhappy about(couldn't take a day or two and slim it down zos? It makes characters fat) and seemingly increasing crashing. again paying customers. Already the game has been suffering while they turn out a polished money grabbing system which one could say that that shows where their priorities are. I'll say it again, even BEFORE operation cash cow is released the game suffers while loot box system gets fluff. It has already begun.

These are just the first things that popped in my head. I'm sure there more(some worry about addiction etc) but I'm on my phone so I'm not listing EVERYTHING. If you've been reading you know what the complaints are.

So thank you guys for picking up on my point, I appreciate that.

So I haven't heard that there will be anything in the crates that i would be interested in, so i just wont buy them.

Many people have said this is a precourse to pay to win, i hope thats not true and it will be a sad day if it is

kamimark

nimander99 wrote: »

Are you guys fully aware that none of us actually want this implemented?
Its been made resoundingly clear that we would prefer not to have this system at all!
I know this is a bit mellow dramatic, but there it is. And finally my last question:
Why?

@nimander99, you do not speak for everyone, "us" and "we" are not all in agreement with you. State your opinions as your own, not as if you have a hundred mice in your pockets.

I have no objection to the crates, or paying for cosmetic and disposable stuff, because money is a lot cheaper than time if one has any kind of job, and gambling a bit is fun.

My primary complaint is the poor mix of materials I've seen so far. With fewer food/drink results (and more in the stack if you do get them), fewer repeats, at least one cosmetic item per crate, this can be acceptable; don't spend your rent money on it, just a few spare crowns.

But the display of whining I've seen since this came out is unbelievable and unwarranted, it'd be excessive for real disasters and mass murders, let alone a game purchase. It's a box you don't have to buy, for things you don't need to play the game. The sky is not falling, Chicken Littles.

Oh, and the word is "melodramatic", not two words, from the Greek for "musical drama".

Edgemoor

JimT722 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

What this leads to.

Character cosmetics. Mostly in the box

Housing. Mostly in the box

Reduced dlc content

Enjoyment feels walked off

When you feel you are being ripped of because you can't buy the things you want it kills your enjoyment. They already came out swinging with the exclusive items and it's down hill from here. When it feels a game company is on a mission to rip you off it kinda sours the experience. That's exactly what rng crates were designed to do in other games and ZOS is copying them exactly.

Like I said, as long as they keep the amount of cosmetic items limited, it'll be fine. I doubt a system like this will lead to reduced dlc, if anything, no one wanting to pay a sub did that. If they made them timed exclusives, maybe that would appease some people.

I saw this happen way too many times before to believe that this will not lead to reduced DLC.

I really wish they would announce Vvardenfell already, and make it a full-fledged Orsinium-like DLC. That would surely make me worry a little less.

My experience as well

Sadly my experiance as well

nimander99

kamimark wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Are you guys fully aware that none of us actually want this implemented?
Its been made resoundingly clear that we would prefer not to have this system at all!
I know this is a bit mellow dramatic, but there it is. And finally my last question:
Why?

@nimander99, you do not speak for everyone, "us" and "we" are not all in agreement with you. State your opinions as your own, not as if you have a hundred mice in your pockets.

I have no objection to the crates, or paying for cosmetic and disposable stuff, because money is a lot cheaper than time if one has any kind of job, and gambling a bit is fun.

My primary complaint is the poor mix of materials I've seen so far. With fewer food/drink results (and more in the stack if you do get them), fewer repeats, at least one cosmetic item per crate, this can be acceptable; don't spend your rent money on it, just a few spare crowns.

But the display of whining I've seen since this came out is unbelievable and unwarranted, it'd be excessive for real disasters and mass murders, let alone a game purchase. It's a box you don't have to buy, for things you don't need to play the game. The sky is not falling, Chicken Littles.

Oh, and the word is "melodramatic", not two words, from the Greek for "musical drama".

You are absolutely right, what was I thinking, there are 6 or 7 people that think these are great, I apologize for the generalization... I hope you can forgive me.

BTW, I intentionally split melodramatic to actually mean what I said bru, hence not a musical drama, thanks for that