Magic Sorcs need some MAJOR help and it can't wait until the next update

SlayerTheDragon

My biggest issue with Sorc is that it has no spamable ability, which forces you to equip a destroy staff (for Force Pulse), thus making the other two options of higher damage (via dual wield) or higher defence (via S&B) out of the question.

I would have given Sorcs a class shield that starts to regenerate after 1 second of no direct damage. This makes them vulnerable to burst, and forces them to play at range.

Dracane

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

My biggest issue with Sorc is that it has no spamable ability, which forces you to equip a destroy staff (for Force Pulse), thus making the other two options of higher damage (via dual wield) or higher defence (via S&B) out of the question.

I would have given Sorcs a class shield that starts to regenerate after 1 second of no direct damage. This makes them vulnerable to burst, and forces them to play at range.

I would be fine with that, if Force shock would deal good damage.
But it's so underpowered

Lord-Otto

I'm still for a spammable class skill.
Dual Wield allows you to get another set piece. My magblade is very happy with that Julianos+Lich setup.
Either way, Force Shock shouldn't be reflectable or dodegeable, seeing as it is our PRIMARY attack move, unlike bows, which only supplement melee.

Mayrael

ragespell wrote: »

This is the first mmorpg I played in which the same resource pool increase both survivability and damage.
And skills/weapons that use that pool grant even more damage than their magicka counterpart.

I really think this is just bad design that will be hard to correct (at least without upsetting the vast majority of the current player base)

OT: and for the love of god, can I have my matriarch follow me when I try to heal in pvp, because she's always following some enemy two castles away)

You can do that by pressing command + RMB (its follow command that i used use in pvp) , attack is command + LMB, where command can be changed in controls menu.

Jar_Ek

@Dracane Thanks for the concern. Gangernous gall bladder key hole surgery. Evil blighter is out. From extreme pain and blue lights to sore stomach and going home... 4 days. Mind you they only realised how bad it was during the surgery... damned lucky it didn't get pushed back onto an elective list. The wait could have been very... bad.

Anyway, sorry my post stopped part way through.. my meds were running down and I was feeling a bit off.

Apherius

Glantir wrote: »

- change curse to a normal DoT
- remove casttime and knockdown effect of crystalfrag
- reduce sorc skill costs

Problem solved

I wish it would be so easy but I think it isnt..... but would be nice if we didnt forced to use force pulse....

agree with you . good for pve and pvp .

But, rinaldo golphi , you talk about PVP ? right ? because ... in PVE ... nobody need the shield .

Jsmalls

DKsUnite wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

I agree that sorc needs some love but when you say a DK is better, I don't think you really understand how *** mag DK's really are right now.

please try to heal with dragon blood before you say your 10k+ hardened ward for 6 secs is worse......

I'm not saying MagDks are in a great spot, but at least you have a decent class HEAL, everyone has access to our (Sorc's) 6 second ward "class defining ability" with (Dampen/Harness). In fact Mag NBs can actually make BETTER use of that shield due to their passives 8% more max Magicka, and being able to effectively use Necropotence with their shadow image. (55k Magicka without even trying).

MagDks are easily the best dueling class, and as soon as the Destruction Staff skill line gets reworked they will be in an amazing place as far as open world goes.

Mag DKs are already hard counters to NBs and Sorcs being able to completely Negate (and reflect) their two burst abilities (Frags and Assassin's Will) and being able to keep them Perma rooted.

Lava_Croft

MagSorcs are only topped by MagPlars. I know it's still hard for some of the MagSorcs to not be ridiculously overpowered anymore, but let's focus on the two classes that need the most help in the Magicka department, namely Nightblades and Dragon Knights.

RinaldoGandolphi

Lava_Croft wrote: »

MagSorcs are only topped by MagPlars. I know it's still hard for some of the MagSorcs to not be ridiculously overpowered anymore, but let's focus on the two classes that need the most help in the Magicka department, namely Nightblades and Dragon Knights.

That's simply not true. My Magblade is way more powerful then my Magic Sorc...

My Magblade has:

Cloak
Double Take(Major Evasion and speed boost costs magicka)
Larger Max Magicka Pool
Cheaper more damaging heal spells
Better Ultimates
Better Passives
Better utilty
Better Surviability
Better Sustain

Magic Sorc is tied at the bottom of the chain with DK but for different reasons. Sorc's are weaker because they have the lowest DPS and are the squishiest class in the game. Magic DK are the weakest due to lack of Burst damage, and lack of mobility with a decent heal...both are the weakest for for completely different reasons, but make both of them blow chunks compared to Magic Nightblade and Magic Templar.

This is compounded by the fact we are stuck with garbage weapons like Destro and Resto, and every decent class skill we had was converted to Stam....Unstable Flame taken away, we were given Burning Embers that heals while Stam get the superior damage option with increasing Dot damage....My magic Templar used to use Biting Jabs, that was taken away leaving us with the less damaging healing option. Magic Nightblades were left with Lotus Fan garbage while Stam Blades get Ambush and Empower....and Stam Sorcs get Hurricance...longer speed buff, far more damage, huge range...Magic Sorc's get Boundless Storm...pitiful damage compared to Hurriance, only a few second buff....Boundless Storm is garbage compared to stam morph.

Stam gets every single good morph of class skills and magic gets stuck with the trash heap no one wants...its sad really.

Jar_Ek

Tbh stam sorcs got no boundless morph of any use until recently and after consistent pressure. I think much of the issue is that zos removed soft caps without fully thinking through the implications. Originally I think they figured stamina builds could just use weapon skill lines. Then they thought that stamina should have the morphs that were obviously weapon based and used the least magic for their effect. Then stamina began to complain that they were basically gimped (which they were) and zos have slowly improved the lot of stamina builds. However all changes to one morph will tend to be to the detriment of the other... unless zos implemented a 3 morph system (which has been suggested) - and new skill implementations always seem to power creep.

Having said all that I feel that magicka sorcerers need to have a serious rework to be effective again whilst maintaining the goals zos clearly nerfed them around. Which is hopefully what this thread is doing!

Drummerx04

You want a subtle yet powerful improvement for the magicka sorc? How about curse applies unpurgeable major defile for the same duration of the effect (3.5 seconds for velocious), and while we are at it, making curse unpurgeable as well? The primary issue I have on my sorc is with people outhealing my burst with rally + vigor while dodge rolling what would be my spammable pressure skills, and this would provide a little group utility as well.

Also, I wouldn't underestimate the utility of crushing shock as a spammable.

• Are you being sniped from the wall? crushing shock
• Templar casting area heal? crushing shock
• hard casted crystal frag/dark deal? crushing shock
• templar using dark flare or jesus beam? crushing shock
• engine guarding giving out resources? crushing shock
• Oh crap, getting hit with soul assault, wait... crushing shock

It interrupts and stuns for 3 seconds and hits for 3-6k when unblocked. I only bring cshock up in this thread because people complained about force shock as a spammable and it makes me laugh.

SanTii.92

Dracane wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

Put an armor balance in Battle Spirit. Make all the armor types the same value, that way only the passives would differentiate them.

Even if the resistance values were the same, I would still prefer heavy armor over light armor all day.
Better sustain and more damage and more healing.

What

Rykmaar

I think the spammable issue could be addressed with the execute class ability.

Make it a spammable ability that deals direct shock damage. (not as it currently is, make it deal more direct damage and make the visual effect come from the caster to the target, instead of a zeus bolt from the sky)

Make one of the morphs add fire to it (visual effect, adds a DoT). Add burn to the name.

Make the other be the execute and fold the AoE nature morph in the current build into the ability.

Boom. Spammable problem solved.

NordSwordnBoard

Don't forget our toggle skills other classes get as passives. Having to double-bar my shields compounded this post DB.

I like some of the ideas about 5LA getting a rework away from spell resist. Increasing spell damage and/or increasing the ranges of AoEs or projectiles by some factor in lieu of more recovery or reduction might work.

hrothbern

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Don't forget our toggle skills other classes get as passives. Having to double-bar my shields compounded this post DB.

I like some of the ideas about 5LA getting a rework away from spell resist. Increasing spell damage and/or increasing the ranges of AoEs or projectiles by some factor in lieu of more recovery or reduction might work.

Bound Armor has the same issue

What is the usefulnes of 2% more Armor mitigation on that tiny health pool for an ability you slot to get a bigger damage shield ?

Sublime

juhasman wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Two things:

In group PvP Negate is currently more dominant than any other skill has ever been in the game. It is no longer possible to negate a Negate while being Negated, so you first have to somehow get out of the AOE, which costs stamina (walking takes too long and streak doesn't work). Magicka sorcs don't have enough stamina available for this so some rerolled to stamina, in order to be able to protect their group.

You forgot to mention the huge buff magicka sorcs got with 1.6 through the removal of softcaps.

I dont understand that negate theory. You only prove here that stamina sorc is better and stamina overall is better because they can dodge out or use their skills inside negates. Stamina sorc using heroic slash charges negate even faster then magicka one. And about that 1.6 buff yes mag sorc get huge buff after sofcaps removal but did other builds get nerfed? No. Every build get profits to resource managment and dmg after soft caps removal but magicka sorc is the only one build for now that had skills TRULY nerfed in future update. I am talking here about changing the skills itselfs not game mechanic so I dont count dragon blood , battle roar passive etc.

it's an answer to the following line of OP:

"Negate has been nerfed and partially buffed off and on (The current Negate still isn't as good as the 1.5 Negate was)."

And basically means that Negate as such is more than fine, and shouldn't be buffed to make magicka sorcs more viable.

Yes, sorcs got some nerfs after 1.6, but the removal of softcaps buffed them more than any other class. Balance isn't about absolute strength it's about relative streangth between different classes/builds, i.e. a buff to one class/build is at the same time a nerf to all other classes/builds. You could compare it to the law of conservation of energy, to total amount of strength is always the same, but relative streangth changes with each update.

I still remember the dueling on PTS with the 1.6 patch, the first few days were okayish since everybody was trying out the new environment. But after some time nobody wanted to fight sorcs anymore, as the shields were just too big. The last two paragraphs aren't about the sorc in it's current state but about it's stat after patach 1.6.

As for my opinion on the magicka sorcs current state, I'd still play in solo/small group setups if it weren't for negate's dominance and stamina bias. Also Eternal Hunt, roll dodge, streak, minor expedition and major expedition is simply more effective at running away from zergs than only streak and major expedition.

Leingod

Get rid of shield stacking.

Make shields crittable.

Make shields last 10-12 seconds.

Make shields ~40-50% stronger.

Streak cost increase negated if it hits something.

BoL needs to counter gap closers.

Make Endless Fury stronger/w weaker execute (an idea ive heard- 3 ~1k Shock dmg pulses when in execute range for decent disintegration chance)

Allow sorcs a better meta than just force pulse spam.

Make mag heals better than stamina.

Decrease attack speed on Shieldbreaker set by 25%

Give us a more mag weapon lines and/or a better destro ultimate..

Make a negate morph w a larger radius, 7 second duration.

Storm Atro channel should drain resources from target.

FriedEggSandwich

Leingod wrote: »

Get rid of shield stacking.

Make shields crittable.

Make shields last 10-12 seconds.

Make shields ~40-50% stronger.

Streak cost increase negated if it hits something.

BoL needs to counter gap closers.

Make Endless Fury stronger/w weaker execute (an idea ive heard- 3 ~1k Shock dmg pulses when in execute range for decent disintegration chance)

Allow sorcs a better meta than just force pulse spam.

Make mag heals better than stamina.

Decrease attack speed on Shieldbreaker set by 25%

Give us a more mag weapon lines and/or a better destro ultimate..

Make a negate morph w a larger radius, 7 second duration.

Storm Atro channel should drain resources from target.

Mages Wrath is one of my favourite skills, probably second fave after streak. It's so satisfying to cancel a heavy attack with it and watch non-tanks explode from around half hp. Of course I wouldn't oppose a base damage buff but please don't reduce the execute damage, it would render the skill useless as an execute imo. I really like the light armour suggestions from earlier in this thread, and I really like the idea of making curse un-blockable/un-purgeable or to give it a debuff. I also really like the idea of giving streak some love, either by increasing its damage or by resetting the fatigue if you damage with it. But please don't remove any of mages wrath damage. I've always been sceptical about the need for a sorc class spammable. I wouldn't oppose it but I'm not desperate for it. Wrath is a good candidate for a spammable but it needs to retain its functionality as an execute imo. I feel really strongly about this.

Edit: amen to the mag heals being the strongest.

Xsorus

Increase to 12 seconds
Make Crit work against them
Make Crit Resist work against Critting them.

Nifty2g

One of my biggest issues with Sorcerer is the Summoned Atronach

The Charged Atronach morph which has a powerful AoE, does not have a powerful AoE, my proposed change to this would be to make them act like they do in Hardmode AA, where near death they start pulsating and explode, as you can see in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2aS1IpjDkc
If they do this and it damages all nearby enemies and giving them chain lightning increasing the damage for how many enemies are in the area, I think it would be really strong and some good damage for Sorcerer AoE and a very viable ultimate so we can stop using Meteor. Lets say they do this for about 4 or 5 seconds before they start to crumble

Just my thoughts because this ultimate has been here since the start and is one of the very few that have never been changed, it's just very lack luster and does not fit with the current game, barely does damage.

Just my thoughts, thats pretty much all I would change for Sorcerers

I'm just going to throw a tag for @ZOS_RichLambert

The other morph should be single target and apply that storm bound ability to you, a powerful DoT and debuff

Espica

I don't know how much they can change the main game, maybe there are some stuff hard coded impossible to modify.
I think they could make two different paths from the start for each class, you would pick either Magicka or Stamina on character creation. That way all the morphs would suit the class.
They'd have to change all the weapon skills to use either resource according to your choice.

No more hybrid builds though, and IDK where tanks would fit.

BurritoESO

Make sorc great again

Anti_Virus

Vaoh wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Conclusion

This is just a start. Destruction Staff needs some major re-working too as all the nerfs to Destro Staff over the last year(Crushing Shock losing 10% damage, Force Shock and Elemental Ring losing their 40% chance at applying a status effect, Fire Clench losing its Stun) This will at least bring the Sorc back up to a semi-reasonable and plyable level. Right now the class simply isn't competitive...You have a few diehards still playing it, but your literally better off with any other class combo....even Stam Sorc is miles head of Magic Sorc's and Sorcs are casters by Lore....

That bolded part right there. That is me. I have been very tempted lately to PvP on my Stam Sorc because Stam is so superior right now to my Magicka Sorc. Really sad.

Practically everything you listed I agree with.

However.... you didn't even list all of the nerfs!

A few you missed:
• The shield nerf causes them to need more resources over stacked damage than before because shields must be spammed every 5-6 seconds regardless if damage is taken or not. No other class spec has to take that sacrifice to maintain a 6sec buff that means near-instant death if dropped.

• Bolt Escape is BUGGED (since IC launch). It no longer travels correctly, cutting you forward momentum as soon as it is used. This essentially causes you to gain no almost ground if running up any type of incline or down any sort of hill. Ground must be perfectly flat to gain the correct movement benefit. ZOS stopped playing Mag Sorc so they wouldn't know.

• The recent across-the-board Magicka cost increase (10%) was brutal to Magicka Sorc. They must spam shields every 6sec, burning tons of Magicka. Bolt Escape's stacking cost was made even more brutal. Sorcs are supposed to have generally higher costing skills because of the delayed detonation nature of their burst since their only defense (shields) had long duration. No longer the case at all.

• Shieldbreaker is a set created to hard counter Magicka Sorcs. No set like this should ever exist. Since the shield duration was nerfed, Sorcs are forced to spend more time shielding and less time healing/pressuring/dealing damage. Shieldbreaker is enough to take down some of the best Mag Sorcs now if used by any decent Stam player. It's really stupid.

Let's fix this Class spec already plz. No reason I should be gimped for staying loyal to my Magicka Sorc

Other classes do sacrifice, but instead of getting 6 secs of free crit immunity we have to dodge roll which can be countered by AoEs or Block which only mitigates up to 70% of dmg.

Every class suffers in this insta kill burst meta high armor pen values ensure heavy armor users no protection and medium/ light armor users naked.

On the bright side at least you can still shield stack and have no penalties. dodge roll has a high punishing cost increase when used consecutively and blocking halts stam regen both are more punishing than the shield "nerfs".

Draven147

I would really like to see each weapon skill line have at least 2 magicka options. Or, give each weapon skill a magicka morphable option. That would create way more options and possible combos to help level the playing field slightly.

As a magicka wielding badass mo fo there is no way that I should not be able to charge my sword/bow/dagger/axe/mace with magicka and launch massive attacks similar to stam builds.

Giving the mSorcs more AoE and DoT to help "balance" PvP is simply silly and a waste of time in my opinion. You can have all the DoT you want but when you are bursted down and killed in 1.6 seconds it really doesn't matter that over 8 seconds you can do 40k damage. That only works against potatoes and noobs in PvP land.

Another option could be to make crystal frags hit harder and proc easier as well and have mage's wrath's execute hit a smidge harder and from a higher level of health %. Something closer to RD's could help even things up as well. A 30% proc difference and 330% more damage is simply laughable.

A couple more PvP focused sets would help out as well. Only having 1-3 PvP focused sets makes it very easy to counter when you know what the other guy is wearing.

mSorcs should be powerhouses with the cost of being squishy and shield reliant and I am ok with that. I am perfectly happy being as squishy as a sponge if I know that if I play right I can be formidable on the battlefield. They got the squishy part down now all that has to happen is the more directly offensive capabilities part.

I was really hoping that with the introduction of weapon ults that the mSorc class would get a pick-me-up in direct damage but it seems, in my opinion ant least, as though the ones in charge simply aren't listening to the communities thoughts and input. It's very disheartening and discouraging. I guess we will just have to wait until the next patch to see if they get some love.

I fully understand that "balance" in champion point PvP campaigns is simply unachievable and never going to happen but it feels like the table is leaning way to far to the stamina side and some counterweights are in desperate need of placement. Perhaps cp level based campaigns are needed as well. Say from 0-100, 100-200, 200-300, 300-400, and 400-531. Or 0-275 and 276-531. That would give the newcomers to PvP a half assed chance at surviving and actually enjoying Cyrodill. Having that big of a cp swing is completely unfair and no amount of balancing will ever help to fix that. Maybe trying to push more people towards no cp campaigns would also help. Have double ap weekends or maybe a mini 3-5 day double ap campaigns.

Sureshawt

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Sorc's are weaker because they have the lowest DPS and are the squishiest class in the game.

LOL....This statement is just hilarious.

Glantir

Everytime I run vAA or vHR i've got a notion that our skill costs are damn high, its terrifiying how fast my mana pool is running low even with ele drain and orbs...

pls reduce some of our skill costs or/and change the rebate passive, there are few who uses a pet and even if you use one this passive give far less magicka than the pet costs and you only get it if your pet dies

dsalter

as a hard core sorc. you assume we are ment to play that way?

• shield duration i agree sucks, 10 would be plenty.
• frag procs could be increased in speed + slight chance increase.
• staffs in general need to be buffed so not a sorc only thing.
• storm arch is abysmal and needs a complete rework.
• Overload is to much of a crutch and is the reason i see that we get nerfed so hard (just look at the other thread about the 10mil tel'var farm for an example) and could do with being replaced entirely.
• streak was overnerfed, lower the cost increase slightly and i can see it being fine, or increase the distance it travels.
• Surge is pretty lame now, thanks to the nerf which btw was brought on BECAUSE of OVERLOAD, the crutch skill.
• mines are pretty good tho they could be made with being turned more transparent so that it's harder to spot them.
• Pets and armor toggles were made persistant with bars due to overload buff bars... again another OVERLOAD related nerf.

Conclusion?

Overload needs to be changed before i can see us getting any notable buffs since such a powerful crutch is impacting how they see the class. surge and toggles were nerfed hard specifically because of Overload.

Natas013

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm sorry; but the ability to pop two shields that lasted for 20 seconds and then go full offense without a care in the world was moronic.

I'd be open to them increasing the duration back to 20 seconds; but only if shields could be Crit.

Rather than see them able to be crit, I'd rather see them non stackable. You can't walk around with a shield in each hand, so why shouldn't shields overwrite the previously casted shield?

BurritoESO

Buff streak 2016

Lord_Hev

The shield duration nerf and bolt escape penalty are of utmost priority for re-evaluation. Much of our sustain issues come from these two things compounding on top of each other. You waste magic shielding every 4 seconds when it is unnecessary but you have to, or else you get 2-shot. Then you have the bolt escape penalty combined with constant shielding to ward off pressure while being rendered useless by over-abundance of snares and gap-close usage.


Sorc damage is fine imo, in relation to other magic builds. Compared to stamina, our damage is pathetic, but that is more a magic Vs stamina issue, rather then a sorc exclusive issue. Daedric curse being un-purgeble would go a long way in helping our damage out-put overall in a fair way. Everything we do is blatantly telegraphed, would be nice if at least -one- of our attacks could reliably do damage. Our avoidable damage is compounded with the fact, that we have only 4 second window of attack, because our shield(s) only last 6 seconds and is completely un-practical.

I think every Sorcerer can agree with a 10 second shield duration as a more fair compromise if it has been agreed upon internally that the previous shield duration were too high. 10 seconds favors the new direction of reactive defense, while still giving us time to actually go on the offensive, and still keeping large shield accessibility in-check.


Sorcerers are the most reliant on a large magic-pool more then the other classes to obtain both damage and survivability. Why are -we- the ones that need to double-stack toggles to obtain this, when Nightblades just get it by putting at least one of many useful skills from their siphon tree into their skill-slot and getting max magic through a class passive? That belongs on the Sorcerer class.