Magic Sorcs need some MAJOR help and it can't wait until the next update

Elyu

Dracane wrote: »

Everyone is strong with Imperial Physique and when they can break line of sight.

You certainly burst my HA dk down pretty quickly, 2 sec and I was dead.

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Not everything has to revolve around PvP though. The worst changes come from PvP players complaining so much. Lets have some love for PvE players for a change. We have to change our builds, skills and the way we play so much because something was nerfed due to a large amount of PvP players crying over it.

Example: Barrier. Which serves little to no purpose in PvE anymore due to it hitting half a trial group. And soon to be Radiant Oppression. Which will kill magic Templars if not adjusted properly to suit PvP.

I'd like to change the point of view here: pve is EASY to balance. Change mobs hp / resist / damage they do. To 'balance' pvp though they added battle-spirit, then tried to balance THROUGH that, causing a LOT of problems. Better (in my opinion) to balance from pvp perspective, then tweak pve numbers to return it to pre-pvp-tweak.

RoyJade

You can also tweak the daedric prey morph, add it a good dot and let the pet boost on it. Pve get a good dot and longer than rapid curse.

Solariken

sAnn92 wrote: »

Shield duration increases would barely change anything.

Streak need some QoL changes like not losing forward momentum when casting, and be able to streak to the cursor's direction while rooted, but not much more

Sorcs aren't nearly close to the bad state some here try to make it look like.

Both of those changes would be really awesome.

About shields though and fighting Sorcs, I do like the current duration only because before it was VERY difficult to find an opening to strike when shields were down, let alone try to burst through 3 enormous shields. The current situation at least makes shields more of a reactionary tool rather than a massive uncrittable health pool like it was before.

RinaldoGandolphi

Dracane wrote: »

Everyone is strong with Imperial Physique and when they can break line of sight.

In my case, I rarely stepped into Cryrodiil since IC was launched. Pets don't work very well in an open field and I don't like it, when I can't predict things. Because in Cyrodiil, there are always more and more people coming out of stealth. In IC, you have better control over it.

And I only use 1 shield, I'm way too squishy to take more than I can predict
Sustain is my main problem, hardened ward is so expensive to maintain, that I rely on killing my oponents fast.
I think I could build for more sustain and step into Cyrodiil and survive.... But I most certainly would not be able to kill anyone. Sorc base damage is too low for this.

Agreed, and to be honest I don't blame you for staying in IC. My Sorc does pretty well in IC, but open world Cyrodiil....nah....

Here is the Major Part many are missing which I know you @Dracane understand.

The 6 Second Shield duration does not suck because of survivability it suck because of damage and how the class is designed.

Before the Shield Duration Change a Sorc Could:

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. However with your shields lasting 20 seconds you had room to be flexible as you didn't need to recast unless they were wittled down small or gone...only bad Sorcs who let multiple people beat on them re-casted sheilds every 5 seconds.

After the Shield Duration Change

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. If you don't proc a Frag on your 1st Crushing Shock cast you are FORCED to recast shields(often times having to bar swap) you can't maintain your crushing shock pressure on any player with half a brain, you are forced to go defensive if you like it or not...even with full impen light armor a single Dizzy Swing can take 70% of your health....If i still have 10k worth of shields left after 6 seconds, im not gonna recast, im gonna set up my delayed damage combo, but you can't do that with 6 second shields.

All and all to me, the class the way i want to play it ,which is a light armored caster, is dead All our damage is "delayed burst" and 6 seconds isn't long enough to set up that burst. Im not a huge fan of pet builds, you can make some of them work in some cases, and there are a few really good pet sorcs out there, but its just no my cup of tea.

I have caved and now have a max level Mag Blade...its a better caster, has better damage, better sustain, better utility, better everything...and far more survivable.

Sorc is my favorite class, always will be...I miss the days of being squishy but being able to zip around the battle field with speed....If we had far better mobilty options and not a neutered Streak, it probably wouldn't be so bad, but once your in gap closer range in open Cyrodiil with a few players your screwed....before all these changes the squishy Sorc could get away half the time, now your just ridden down. My Heavy Armor Magplar tank healer can walk 10-12 people from DC Farm to the front door face tanking damage and is actually capable of killing people...Sorc's life is wholly dependent on weapon swapping that doesn't even work half the time...the class has to play far too defensive which is a shame really. the class should have more then one viable way to play.

Yes, DK also need help too, I have a Dunmer Magic DK, I stopped playing him PVP for the same reason as my Sorc...far too squishy without Sword and Board and Heavy Armor and too reliant on Ultimates to kill people and forced to be a Vampire just to have a 20% chance to not be zerged due to lack of mobility.

Magic Nightblade and Magic Templar are decent, but they are nothing in comparison to their Stam DK, Stam Templar, Stam Nightblade, and Stam Sorc Overlords.....the amount of unbalance here is absurd....The CP System is biased to Stam, look no farther then the Unchained and Tactician passives in comparison to Arcane Well and Foresight lol.....fixing this is a whole other doozy in itself

BlazingDynamo

Elyu wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Everyone is strong with Imperial Physique and when they can break line of sight.

You certainly burst my HA dk down pretty quickly, 2 sec and I was dead.

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Not everything has to revolve around PvP though. The worst changes come from PvP players complaining so much. Lets have some love for PvE players for a change. We have to change our builds, skills and the way we play so much because something was nerfed due to a large amount of PvP players crying over it.

Example: Barrier. Which serves little to no purpose in PvE anymore due to it hitting half a trial group. And soon to be Radiant Oppression. Which will kill magic Templars if not adjusted properly to suit PvP.

I'd like to change the point of view here: pve is EASY to balance. Change mobs hp / resist / damage they do. To 'balance' pvp though they added battle-spirit, then tried to balance THROUGH that, causing a LOT of problems. Better (in my opinion) to balance from pvp perspective, then tweak pve numbers to return it to pre-pvp-tweak.

Nerfing a half a dozen useful skills and then tweaking mob resist or hp isn't PvE balancing...

Damaging a class with nerf hammers causes that class to be useless and results in having to run another class that can out perform.

Dracane

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Everyone is strong with Imperial Physique and when they can break line of sight.

In my case, I rarely stepped into Cryrodiil since IC was launched. Pets don't work very well in an open field and I don't like it, when I can't predict things. Because in Cyrodiil, there are always more and more people coming out of stealth. In IC, you have better control over it.

And I only use 1 shield, I'm way too squishy to take more than I can predict
Sustain is my main problem, hardened ward is so expensive to maintain, that I rely on killing my oponents fast.
I think I could build for more sustain and step into Cyrodiil and survive.... But I most certainly would not be able to kill anyone. Sorc base damage is too low for this.

Agreed, and to be honest I don't blame you for staying in IC. My Sorc does pretty well in IC, but open world Cyrodiil....nah....

Here is the Major Part many are missing which I know you @Dracane understand.

The 6 Second Shield duration does not suck because of survivability it suck because of damage and how the class is designed.

Before the Shield Duration Change a Sorc Could:

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. However with your shields lasting 20 seconds you had room to be flexible as you didn't need to recast unless they were wittled down small or gone...only bad Sorcs who let multiple people beat on them re-casted sheilds every 5 seconds.

After the Shield Duration Change

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. If you don't proc a Frag on your 1st Crushing Shock cast you are FORCED to recast shields(often times having to bar swap) you can't maintain your crushing shock pressure on any player with half a brain, you are forced to go defensive if you like it or not...even with full impen light armor a single Dizzy Swing can take 70% of your health....If i still have 10k worth of shields left after 6 seconds, im not gonna recast, im gonna set up my delayed damage combo, but you can't do that with 6 second shields.

All and all to me, the class the way i want to play it ,which is a light armored caster, is dead All our damage is "delayed burst" and 6 seconds isn't long enough to set up that burst. Im not a huge fan of pet builds, you can make some of them work in some cases, and there are a few really good pet sorcs out there, but its just no my cup of tea.

I have caved and now have a max level Mag Blade...its a better caster, has better damage, better sustain, better utility, better everything...and far more survivable.

Sorc is my favorite class, always will be...I miss the days of being squishy but being able to zip around the battle field with speed....If we had far better mobilty options and not a neutered Streak, it probably wouldn't be so bad, but once your in gap closer range in open Cyrodiil with a few players your screwed....before all these changes the squishy Sorc could get away half the time, now your just ridden down. My Heavy Armor Magplar tank healer can walk 10-12 people from DC Farm to the front door face tanking damage and is actually capable of killing people...Sorc's life is wholly dependent on weapon swapping that doesn't even work half the time...the class has to play far too defensive which is a shame really. the class should have more then one viable way to play.

Yes, DK also need help too, I have a Dunmer Magic DK, I stopped playing him PVP for the same reason as my Sorc...far too squishy without Sword and Board and Heavy Armor and too reliant on Ultimates to kill people and forced to be a Vampire just to have a 20% chance to not be zerged due to lack of mobility.

Magic Nightblade and Magic Templar are decent, but they are nothing in comparison to their Stam DK, Stam Templar, Stam Nightblade, and Stam Sorc Overlords.....the amount of unbalance here is absurd....The CP System is biased to Stam, look no farther then the Unchained and Tactician passives in comparison to Arcane Well and Foresight lol.....fixing this is a whole other doozy in itself

My shield always lasted for more than 6 seconds. Maybe not when you get beaten by a zerg. But it usually always did.
These shields are just a huge magicka drain, nothing else. They don't give you actual health, they don't bring you out of execution range. When you are at 20% life you need 1 breath of life and you are out of all execution ranges.
But you can keep on spamming a shield and your shield will get one shotted at this point and you will just spam yourself to death until the next CC hits you.

Shields need major buffs in my opinion. Shieldstackers won't understand. But people who play with only 1 shield, will know HOW weak damage shields truly are compared to all other survival mechanics.

Izaki

Dracane wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Everyone is strong with Imperial Physique and when they can break line of sight.

In my case, I rarely stepped into Cryrodiil since IC was launched. Pets don't work very well in an open field and I don't like it, when I can't predict things. Because in Cyrodiil, there are always more and more people coming out of stealth. In IC, you have better control over it.

And I only use 1 shield, I'm way too squishy to take more than I can predict
Sustain is my main problem, hardened ward is so expensive to maintain, that I rely on killing my oponents fast.
I think I could build for more sustain and step into Cyrodiil and survive.... But I most certainly would not be able to kill anyone. Sorc base damage is too low for this.

Agreed, and to be honest I don't blame you for staying in IC. My Sorc does pretty well in IC, but open world Cyrodiil....nah....

Here is the Major Part many are missing which I know you @Dracane understand.

The 6 Second Shield duration does not suck because of survivability it suck because of damage and how the class is designed.

Before the Shield Duration Change a Sorc Could:

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. However with your shields lasting 20 seconds you had room to be flexible as you didn't need to recast unless they were wittled down small or gone...only bad Sorcs who let multiple people beat on them re-casted sheilds every 5 seconds.

After the Shield Duration Change

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. If you don't proc a Frag on your 1st Crushing Shock cast you are FORCED to recast shields(often times having to bar swap) you can't maintain your crushing shock pressure on any player with half a brain, you are forced to go defensive if you like it or not...even with full impen light armor a single Dizzy Swing can take 70% of your health....If i still have 10k worth of shields left after 6 seconds, im not gonna recast, im gonna set up my delayed damage combo, but you can't do that with 6 second shields.

All and all to me, the class the way i want to play it ,which is a light armored caster, is dead All our damage is "delayed burst" and 6 seconds isn't long enough to set up that burst. Im not a huge fan of pet builds, you can make some of them work in some cases, and there are a few really good pet sorcs out there, but its just no my cup of tea.

I have caved and now have a max level Mag Blade...its a better caster, has better damage, better sustain, better utility, better everything...and far more survivable.

Sorc is my favorite class, always will be...I miss the days of being squishy but being able to zip around the battle field with speed....If we had far better mobilty options and not a neutered Streak, it probably wouldn't be so bad, but once your in gap closer range in open Cyrodiil with a few players your screwed....before all these changes the squishy Sorc could get away half the time, now your just ridden down. My Heavy Armor Magplar tank healer can walk 10-12 people from DC Farm to the front door face tanking damage and is actually capable of killing people...Sorc's life is wholly dependent on weapon swapping that doesn't even work half the time...the class has to play far too defensive which is a shame really. the class should have more then one viable way to play.

Yes, DK also need help too, I have a Dunmer Magic DK, I stopped playing him PVP for the same reason as my Sorc...far too squishy without Sword and Board and Heavy Armor and too reliant on Ultimates to kill people and forced to be a Vampire just to have a 20% chance to not be zerged due to lack of mobility.

Magic Nightblade and Magic Templar are decent, but they are nothing in comparison to their Stam DK, Stam Templar, Stam Nightblade, and Stam Sorc Overlords.....the amount of unbalance here is absurd....The CP System is biased to Stam, look no farther then the Unchained and Tactician passives in comparison to Arcane Well and Foresight lol.....fixing this is a whole other doozy in itself

My shield always lasted for more than 6 seconds. Maybe not when you get beaten by a zerg. But it usually always did.
These shields are just a huge magicka drain, nothing else. They don't give you actual health, they don't bring you out of execution range. When you are at 20% life you need 1 breath of life and you are out of all execution ranges.
But you can keep on spamming a shield and your shield will get one shotted at this point and you will just spam yourself to death until the next CC hits you.

Shields need major buffs in my opinion. Shieldstackers won't understand. But people who play with only 1 shield, will know HOW weak damage shields truly are compared to all other survival mechanics.

Agreed . Been noticing this more and more

juhasman

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

I'd be happy with just changing Velocious Curse to a DoT and add 20% magic recovery to the Daedric Summoning passive that currently gives 20% health and stamina recovery.

Changing curse into a DoT is mag sorc nerf from PvP perspective. Sorc already have 10% magicka recovery in passive so if I would need to change something I would change that passive to 20% instead of adding additional 20% .

Not everything has to revolve around PvP though. The worst changes come from PvP players complaining so much. Lets have some love for PvE players for a change. We have to change our builds, skills and the way we play so much because something was nerfed due to a large amount of PvP players crying over it.

Example: Barrier. Which serves little to no purpose in PvE anymore due to it hitting half a trial group. And soon to be Radiant Oppression. Which will kill magic Templars if not adjusted properly to suit PvP.

I agree not everything need to be around PvP , but You cant demand to rework skill that is main part of some class PvP rotation and without it class which have problems right now will be dead only because You want to get slightly higher DPS in PvE. For Your knowledge PvE sorcerers are using curse atm and getting good dps with it. I reccomend You to watch Yolo Wizard or Streak One You Tube chanells.( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwsshNZNfcig6e-PgCzNHzg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRRCr_Gyp1XSkR0OdQd0muQ )

About barrier I think You underestimate this ulti. I am using it in PvE on my stam builds when I am doing vMA and things gets nasty or in vDSA in same situations. Also i think cap is not at 6m but at 12m so You missed the point entirely. People stopped using barrier in trial enviroments because we're living now in warhorn times when if group can have warhorn more then 75% of fight uptime they get dps raise high enough to burst their way through trial.

BlazingDynamo

juhasman wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

I'd be happy with just changing Velocious Curse to a DoT and add 20% magic recovery to the Daedric Summoning passive that currently gives 20% health and stamina recovery.

Changing curse into a DoT is mag sorc nerf from PvP perspective. Sorc already have 10% magicka recovery in passive so if I would need to change something I would change that passive to 20% instead of adding additional 20% .

Not everything has to revolve around PvP though. The worst changes come from PvP players complaining so much. Lets have some love for PvE players for a change. We have to change our builds, skills and the way we play so much because something was nerfed due to a large amount of PvP players crying over it.

Example: Barrier. Which serves little to no purpose in PvE anymore due to it hitting half a trial group. And soon to be Radiant Oppression. Which will kill magic Templars if not adjusted properly to suit PvP.

I agree not everything need to be around PvP , but You cant demand to rework skill that is main part of some class PvP rotation and without it class which have problems right now will be dead only because You want to get slightly higher DPS in PvE. For Your knowledge PvE sorcerers are using curse atm and getting good dps with it. I reccomend You to watch Yolo Wizard or Streak One You Tube chanells.( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwsshNZNfcig6e-PgCzNHzg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRRCr_Gyp1XSkR0OdQd0muQ )

About barrier I think You underestimate this ulti. I am using it in PvE on my stam builds when I am doing vMA and things gets nasty or in vDSA in same situations. Also i think cap is not at 6m but at 12m so You missed the point entirely. People stopped using barrier in trial enviroments because we're living now in warhorn times when if group can have warhorn more then 75% of fight uptime they get dps raise high enough to burst their way through trial.

I do watch Streak. He's one of the few who can pull high dps as a magic sorc. I run magic sorc myself and I love it but it is still out classed by a lot. It needs a few changes because right now it is wall of elements and force pull till your frag. Curse is very new to the roation because the lack of diversity amongst sorcs.

Also I'm damn sure barrier hits 6 ppl if not please prove me wrong cause I haven't seen the patch notes changing it back. That is the main reason it was dropped in trials. War horn is fairly new to what ppl expect in a trial group. Yes it was used but it wasn't a necessity. If you have less than 6 ppl present it's great if you have more it's crap.

Just saying because it may be a 'hit' PvP doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed to change. PvE takes hits to skills all the time. We adopt, we change. PvP should too.

Makkir

Id personally like access to major defile

Xsorus

I'm sorry; but the ability to pop two shields that lasted for 20 seconds and then go full offense without a care in the world was moronic.

I'd be open to them increasing the duration back to 20 seconds; but only if shields could be Crit.

Dracane

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm sorry; but the ability to pop two shields that lasted for 20 seconds and then go full offense without a care in the world was moronic.

I'd be open to them increasing the duration back to 20 seconds; but only if shields could be Crit.

Okay and then make them mirror the casters armor and spell resistance.....
Otherwise, no.

ragespell

This is the first mmorpg I played in which the same resource pool increase both survivability and damage.
And skills/weapons that use that pool grant even more damage than their magicka counterpart.

I really think this is just bad design that will be hard to correct (at least without upsetting the vast majority of the current player base)

OT: and for the love of god, can I have my matriarch follow me when I try to heal in pvp, because she's always following some enemy two castles away)

Derra

Dracane wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Everyone is strong with Imperial Physique and when they can break line of sight.

In my case, I rarely stepped into Cryrodiil since IC was launched. Pets don't work very well in an open field and I don't like it, when I can't predict things. Because in Cyrodiil, there are always more and more people coming out of stealth. In IC, you have better control over it.

And I only use 1 shield, I'm way too squishy to take more than I can predict
Sustain is my main problem, hardened ward is so expensive to maintain, that I rely on killing my oponents fast.
I think I could build for more sustain and step into Cyrodiil and survive.... But I most certainly would not be able to kill anyone. Sorc base damage is too low for this.

Agreed, and to be honest I don't blame you for staying in IC. My Sorc does pretty well in IC, but open world Cyrodiil....nah....

Here is the Major Part many are missing which I know you @Dracane understand.

The 6 Second Shield duration does not suck because of survivability it suck because of damage and how the class is designed.

Before the Shield Duration Change a Sorc Could:

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. However with your shields lasting 20 seconds you had room to be flexible as you didn't need to recast unless they were wittled down small or gone...only bad Sorcs who let multiple people beat on them re-casted sheilds every 5 seconds.

After the Shield Duration Change

1. Apply Daedric Curse (Expires in 3.5 seconds)
2. Tag Target with Mage's Fury (Lasts 4 seconds)
3. Spam Crushing Shock with Light Attack Weaves to get a Frag Proc
4. Time your Curse and Frags to hit at the same time to proc Mage's Fury all 3 go boom.

Since Crystal Fragments is ENTIRELY based on RNG there was no guarantee when you would get that Frag proc, perhaps on your 1st Crushing Shock cast, maybe your 5th. If you don't proc a Frag on your 1st Crushing Shock cast you are FORCED to recast shields(often times having to bar swap) you can't maintain your crushing shock pressure on any player with half a brain, you are forced to go defensive if you like it or not...even with full impen light armor a single Dizzy Swing can take 70% of your health....If i still have 10k worth of shields left after 6 seconds, im not gonna recast, im gonna set up my delayed damage combo, but you can't do that with 6 second shields.

All and all to me, the class the way i want to play it ,which is a light armored caster, is dead All our damage is "delayed burst" and 6 seconds isn't long enough to set up that burst. Im not a huge fan of pet builds, you can make some of them work in some cases, and there are a few really good pet sorcs out there, but its just no my cup of tea.

I have caved and now have a max level Mag Blade...its a better caster, has better damage, better sustain, better utility, better everything...and far more survivable.

Sorc is my favorite class, always will be...I miss the days of being squishy but being able to zip around the battle field with speed....If we had far better mobilty options and not a neutered Streak, it probably wouldn't be so bad, but once your in gap closer range in open Cyrodiil with a few players your screwed....before all these changes the squishy Sorc could get away half the time, now your just ridden down. My Heavy Armor Magplar tank healer can walk 10-12 people from DC Farm to the front door face tanking damage and is actually capable of killing people...Sorc's life is wholly dependent on weapon swapping that doesn't even work half the time...the class has to play far too defensive which is a shame really. the class should have more then one viable way to play.

Yes, DK also need help too, I have a Dunmer Magic DK, I stopped playing him PVP for the same reason as my Sorc...far too squishy without Sword and Board and Heavy Armor and too reliant on Ultimates to kill people and forced to be a Vampire just to have a 20% chance to not be zerged due to lack of mobility.

Magic Nightblade and Magic Templar are decent, but they are nothing in comparison to their Stam DK, Stam Templar, Stam Nightblade, and Stam Sorc Overlords.....the amount of unbalance here is absurd....The CP System is biased to Stam, look no farther then the Unchained and Tactician passives in comparison to Arcane Well and Foresight lol.....fixing this is a whole other doozy in itself

My shield always lasted for more than 6 seconds. Maybe not when you get beaten by a zerg. But it usually always did.
These shields are just a huge magicka drain, nothing else. They don't give you actual health, they don't bring you out of execution range. When you are at 20% life you need 1 breath of life and you are out of all execution ranges.
But you can keep on spamming a shield and your shield will get one shotted at this point and you will just spam yourself to death until the next CC hits you.

Shields need major buffs in my opinion. Shieldstackers won't understand. But people who play with only 1 shield, will know HOW weak damage shields truly are compared to all other survival mechanics.

Yep. Shields ran out with 20s duration for me more than they did not.

It was all a matter of agression and controlling the fight. Now it´s just endless recasting because the survivability without a shield was always meh.

juhasman

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm sorry; but the ability to pop two shields that lasted for 20 seconds and then go full offense without a care in the world was moronic.

I'd be open to them increasing the duration back to 20 seconds; but only if shields could be Crit.

Ok but only if shields could crit also Or have catser resists.Or sorc will have instant self heal other then easy to kill toogle pet. Stamina users atm are not in the place to call for crit into shields when they get so high burst that can go through shields faster then it takes to recast them.

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

I'd be happy with just changing Velocious Curse to a DoT and add 20% magic recovery to the Daedric Summoning passive that currently gives 20% health and stamina recovery.

Changing curse into a DoT is mag sorc nerf from PvP perspective. Sorc already have 10% magicka recovery in passive so if I would need to change something I would change that passive to 20% instead of adding additional 20% .

Not everything has to revolve around PvP though. The worst changes come from PvP players complaining so much. Lets have some love for PvE players for a change. We have to change our builds, skills and the way we play so much because something was nerfed due to a large amount of PvP players crying over it.

Example: Barrier. Which serves little to no purpose in PvE anymore due to it hitting half a trial group. And soon to be Radiant Oppression. Which will kill magic Templars if not adjusted properly to suit PvP.

I agree not everything need to be around PvP , but You cant demand to rework skill that is main part of some class PvP rotation and without it class which have problems right now will be dead only because You want to get slightly higher DPS in PvE. For Your knowledge PvE sorcerers are using curse atm and getting good dps with it. I reccomend You to watch Yolo Wizard or Streak One You Tube chanells.( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwsshNZNfcig6e-PgCzNHzg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRRCr_Gyp1XSkR0OdQd0muQ )

About barrier I think You underestimate this ulti. I am using it in PvE on my stam builds when I am doing vMA and things gets nasty or in vDSA in same situations. Also i think cap is not at 6m but at 12m so You missed the point entirely. People stopped using barrier in trial enviroments because we're living now in warhorn times when if group can have warhorn more then 75% of fight uptime they get dps raise high enough to burst their way through trial.

I do watch Streak. He's one of the few who can pull high dps as a magic sorc. I run magic sorc myself and I love it but it is still out classed by a lot. It needs a few changes because right now it is wall of elements and force pull till your frag. Curse is very new to the roation because the lack of diversity amongst sorcs.

Also I'm damn sure barrier hits 6 ppl if not please prove me wrong cause I haven't seen the patch notes changing it back. That is the main reason it was dropped in trials. War horn is fairly new to what ppl expect in a trial group. Yes it was used but it wasn't a necessity. If you have less than 6 ppl present it's great if you have more it's crap.

Just saying because it may be a 'hit' PvP doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed to change. PvE takes hits to skills all the time. We adopt, we change. PvP should too.

Wall of elements is fine especially wit maelstorm weapons, curse isnt new in rotation just now it was spread after top sorcs players posted videos where they suing it same is with horn it was used earlier also i remember it was must have in my groups when we was doing sanctum or vDSA over at v14. And curse change not ,,may hit PvP" it'll hit and it'll hit very hard. This game try to ballances skills between beeing usefull for PvE and PvP atm curse is usefull in both after You change it will be devastating for PvP mag sorc and will give You like 1k more dps in PvE. That sounds very selfish to look at something from only 1 perspective. So yes that's enough to say it shoudlnt be allowed to change. Also according to that ,,we adopt we change" phrase PvP players need to adopt much more often then PvE. I was able to run with only 1 gear piece change , the same build since IC release for over 9 months and keep solid DPS when in the meantime i was forced to change PvP gear and skills setups many times.

Xsorus

Dracane wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm sorry; but the ability to pop two shields that lasted for 20 seconds and then go full offense without a care in the world was moronic.

I'd be open to them increasing the duration back to 20 seconds; but only if shields could be Crit.

Okay and then make them mirror the casters armor and spell resistance.....
Otherwise, no.

That would be something i'd be weary about.....Like It would needed to be heavily test on PTS before it went live.

and the only reason I say that was I played Warhammer Online and that game had Swordmasters.....If you played that game at all at the start you'd understand why I'm weary on it.

Basically they were tanks; who's main ability was proccing Absorb shields....Problem was Mitigation was taken into effect before Shields...and you could stack mitigation through the roof and it instantly made the value of those Shields skyrocket to the point they were simply unkillable

Xsorus

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Thanks @Dracane

Some of us might disagree on what Magic Sorc needs in details, but the fact remains it needs something.

As for Heavy Armor Sorc, Spectre's Eye is BIS in PVP by a miles. I was able to hit 3k Spell Damage 40k Max Magic, and 1200-1300 recovery with it.

Spectre's Eye is BIS slot for Heavy Armor Magic Sorc PVP for a few reasons

1. It removes your need for shields because every time you cast ANY SPELL you gain Major Evasion(Shuffle) for 3 seconds with a 3 second cooldown. This means instead of recasting shields you can continue to maintain pressure on your enemy and shields are used "in conjunction" with Major Evasion which is very very OP...

I literally swim in zergs with this set when i use it and quite literally it took 20+ AD beating on me for over 3 minutes to kill me the otherday, All while still getting 9k Endless Fury Explosions in Cyrodiil, just to give you an idea...you can build around Spectre's Eye in Heavy Armor and its very very good for Sorcs.

If you want to play a Light Armor spec though you way too squishy and you need sustain sets like Amberplasm or Seducer or you will run out of magicka against any decent opponent who will pressure you into spamming those shield.

Yes Heavy Armor Sorc is viable, but it would be nice if Light Armor Sorc wasn't quite so squishy...if we were a bit more mobile that would be ok...but were way to squishy in light armor for the lack of mobility we have compared to stam builds.

just my 2 cents

Spectre's eye is 6 second cooldown; as I went and checked the second I read this post because of how damn good that set would be on a DK

juhasman

Joy_Division wrote: »

There's far more people claiming magicka sorcs are fine and competitive in PvP than actually playing them on NA Trueflame

One of the main problems of this game. People talking about something or someone they have no idea about only because they saw YT video ,someone tell them that , they saw someone killing solo bunch of recruit rank PvPers or they was killed by someone playing that build or they're playing the build that can easy counter build they speak about and they dont want to change that. It's not even magicka sorc problem but every build in this game.

Faulgor

Dracane wrote: »

My shield always lasted for more than 6 seconds. Maybe not when you get beaten by a zerg. But it usually always did.
These shields are just a huge magicka drain, nothing else. They don't give you actual health, they don't bring you out of execution range. When you are at 20% life you need 1 breath of life and you are out of all execution ranges.
But you can keep on spamming a shield and your shield will get one shotted at this point and you will just spam yourself to death until the next CC hits you.

Shields need major buffs in my opinion. Shieldstackers won't understand. But people who play with only 1 shield, will know HOW weak damage shields truly are compared to all other survival mechanics.

I never liked how shields worked, tbh. They are neither active like blocking or wards in Skyrim, nor a passive buff like all the others because they can run out before their time. That they don't have resistances makes already weak shields often a liability, and that they can't be crit makes already strong shields even stronger. They don't fit into the rest of the character system and have been the cause of endless headaches ever since release.

Frankly, I wish they would work like they used to in previous TES games - improving your armor rating. Trouble is that armor is basically useless due to penetration, and we already have armor buffs with Minor/Major Resolve and Ward. So, I think shields could work like Minor/Major Protection buffs and simply reduce incoming damage.

Option A:
- change all shields to either Minor or Major Protection buffs
- change Light Armor Spell Warding passive to increase duration of Protection buffs by 1 second per piece of Light Armor

Option B:
- change all shields to reduce incoming damage like Minor/Major Protection, but don't put them into Minor/Major buffs
- change Light Armor Spell Warding passive to increase magnitude of shields by x% per piece of Light Armor

Basically, Skyrim's Oakflesh. It allows you to overcome your weak defense in Light Armor (or Unarmored), but only works for a short duration and at the cost of a skill slot. It makes mages more durable without giving them a stackable un-critable defense, and keeps the importance of resistances and crits intact. The important thing would be to make shields vastly better for Light Armor than Medium or Heavy, which is why I'd prefer Option B.

I realize this would be a scary change, but I feel it's worth considering. A lot of nerfs for magicka builds happened because of shields, and the underlying issue has never been addressed (lol Shield Breaker/Shattering Blows).

RinaldoGandolphi

Xsorus wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Thanks @Dracane

Some of us might disagree on what Magic Sorc needs in details, but the fact remains it needs something.

As for Heavy Armor Sorc, Spectre's Eye is BIS in PVP by a miles. I was able to hit 3k Spell Damage 40k Max Magic, and 1200-1300 recovery with it.

Spectre's Eye is BIS slot for Heavy Armor Magic Sorc PVP for a few reasons

1. It removes your need for shields because every time you cast ANY SPELL you gain Major Evasion(Shuffle) for 3 seconds with a 3 second cooldown. This means instead of recasting shields you can continue to maintain pressure on your enemy and shields are used "in conjunction" with Major Evasion which is very very OP...

I literally swim in zergs with this set when i use it and quite literally it took 20+ AD beating on me for over 3 minutes to kill me the otherday, All while still getting 9k Endless Fury Explosions in Cyrodiil, just to give you an idea...you can build around Spectre's Eye in Heavy Armor and its very very good for Sorcs.

If you want to play a Light Armor spec though you way too squishy and you need sustain sets like Amberplasm or Seducer or you will run out of magicka against any decent opponent who will pressure you into spamming those shield.

Yes Heavy Armor Sorc is viable, but it would be nice if Light Armor Sorc wasn't quite so squishy...if we were a bit more mobile that would be ok...but were way to squishy in light armor for the lack of mobility we have compared to stam builds.

just my 2 cents

Spectre's eye is 6 second cooldown; as I went and checked the second I read this post because of how damn good that set would be on a DK

No its not its 3 seconds

You cast a Spell and get Major Evasion for 3 seconds
3 Seconds cooldown
Cast spell get Major Evasion again

You don't have a 6 second wait time between when the proc ends and when you can get it again, its 3 seconds.

Cast a Spell Major Evasion lasts 3 seconds
Once it wears off, count to 3 or use a stop watch for 3 seconds
Cast any spell you got Major Evasion

its up 50% of the time an entire fight as long as your casting spells and its free...so many people have no idea how good that set is....its very powerful in some situations and it could make Magic DK's very very tough

Makkir

like my boy Rinaldo said, that set is very awesome.

Espica

Put an armor balance in Battle Spirit. Make all the armor types the same value, that way only the passives would differentiate them.

Dracane

Espica wrote: »

Put an armor balance in Battle Spirit. Make all the armor types the same value, that way only the passives would differentiate them.

Even if the resistance values were the same, I would still prefer heavy armor over light armor all day.
Better sustain and more damage and more healing.

Vaoh

americansteel wrote: »

In pvp regards Sorcerer along with stam blades still dominate. youre fine

OP writes up a massive, thoroughly considered post regarding how broken Magicka Sorcerers have become overtime due to a plethora of direct and indirect nerfs, and your response is "youre fine"?

L2Balance

Vaoh

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Conclusion

This is just a start. Destruction Staff needs some major re-working too as all the nerfs to Destro Staff over the last year(Crushing Shock losing 10% damage, Force Shock and Elemental Ring losing their 40% chance at applying a status effect, Fire Clench losing its Stun) This will at least bring the Sorc back up to a semi-reasonable and plyable level. Right now the class simply isn't competitive...You have a few diehards still playing it, but your literally better off with any other class combo....even Stam Sorc is miles head of Magic Sorc's and Sorcs are casters by Lore....

That bolded part right there. That is me. I have been very tempted lately to PvP on my Stam Sorc because Stam is so superior right now to my Magicka Sorc. Really sad.

Practically everything you listed I agree with.

However.... you didn't even list all of the nerfs!

A few you missed:
• The shield nerf causes them to need more resources over stacked damage than before because shields must be spammed every 5-6 seconds regardless if damage is taken or not. No other class spec has to take that sacrifice to maintain a 6sec buff that means near-instant death if dropped.

• Bolt Escape is BUGGED (since IC launch). It no longer travels correctly, cutting you forward momentum as soon as it is used. This essentially causes you to gain no almost ground if running up any type of incline or down any sort of hill. Ground must be perfectly flat to gain the correct movement benefit. ZOS stopped playing Mag Sorc so they wouldn't know.

• The recent across-the-board Magicka cost increase (10%) was brutal to Magicka Sorc. They must spam shields every 6sec, burning tons of Magicka. Bolt Escape's stacking cost was made even more brutal. Sorcs are supposed to have generally higher costing skills because of the delayed detonation nature of their burst since their only defense (shields) had long duration. No longer the case at all.

• Shieldbreaker is a set created to hard counter Magicka Sorcs. No set like this should ever exist. Since the shield duration was nerfed, Sorcs are forced to spend more time shielding and less time healing/pressuring/dealing damage. Shieldbreaker is enough to take down some of the best Mag Sorcs now if used by any decent Stam player. It's really stupid.

Let's fix this Class spec already plz. No reason I should be gimped for staying loyal to my Magicka Sorc

jhharvest

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm sorry; but the ability to pop two shields that lasted for 20 seconds and then go full offense without a care in the world was moronic.

I agree - shield stacking was (and imo IS still broken), which is why I personally have never run two shields on my (light armour) magicka sorc. But shortening the duration wasn't the right solution; all they should have done is removed shield stacking with the major / minor buff system.

Now people are talking of buffing light armour by giving it stronger shields. Maybe it would fix some of the light vs. heavy balance but I really don't want to be pigeonholed into a shield stacking gameplay.

Xsorus

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Thanks @Dracane

Some of us might disagree on what Magic Sorc needs in details, but the fact remains it needs something.

As for Heavy Armor Sorc, Spectre's Eye is BIS in PVP by a miles. I was able to hit 3k Spell Damage 40k Max Magic, and 1200-1300 recovery with it.

Spectre's Eye is BIS slot for Heavy Armor Magic Sorc PVP for a few reasons

1. It removes your need for shields because every time you cast ANY SPELL you gain Major Evasion(Shuffle) for 3 seconds with a 3 second cooldown. This means instead of recasting shields you can continue to maintain pressure on your enemy and shields are used "in conjunction" with Major Evasion which is very very OP...

I literally swim in zergs with this set when i use it and quite literally it took 20+ AD beating on me for over 3 minutes to kill me the otherday, All while still getting 9k Endless Fury Explosions in Cyrodiil, just to give you an idea...you can build around Spectre's Eye in Heavy Armor and its very very good for Sorcs.

If you want to play a Light Armor spec though you way too squishy and you need sustain sets like Amberplasm or Seducer or you will run out of magicka against any decent opponent who will pressure you into spamming those shield.

Yes Heavy Armor Sorc is viable, but it would be nice if Light Armor Sorc wasn't quite so squishy...if we were a bit more mobile that would be ok...but were way to squishy in light armor for the lack of mobility we have compared to stam builds.

just my 2 cents

Spectre's eye is 6 second cooldown; as I went and checked the second I read this post because of how damn good that set would be on a DK

No its not its 3 seconds

You cast a Spell and get Major Evasion for 3 seconds
3 Seconds cooldown
Cast spell get Major Evasion again

You don't have a 6 second wait time between when the proc ends and when you can get it again, its 3 seconds.

Cast a Spell Major Evasion lasts 3 seconds
Once it wears off, count to 3 or use a stop watch for 3 seconds
Cast any spell you got Major Evasion

its up 50% of the time an entire fight as long as your casting spells and its free...so many people have no idea how good that set is....its very powerful in some situations and it could make Magic DK's very very tough

I get what you're saying now; when you said 3 second cooldown we thought you meant 100% uptime basically. You cast spell; it gives dodge for 3 seconds, cast a spell and it's back up cause the cooldown is 3 seconds.

What you're describing though is different. It's 50% uptime

The-Baconator

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

So just gonna share my thoughts on all this. Im writing this on my phone lol so apologies in advance.

I think there is an imbalance between magicka and stamina, not just magicka sorcs in particular.

My theory is that as the 'damage creep' increases, magicka builds get weaker in comparison to stamina. Light armor has the least resistances, and users often rely on shields. As the damage increases, these shields become weaker and weaker. On the flip side, a stamina build can dodge roll 100% of incoming damage, no matter how high the damage in cyrodiil becomes, they can mitigate all of it. Not only that but heavy / med armor is mitigating more and more damage as the 'damage creep' grows, same with holding block, where as shields will continue to remain the same.
There has been a constant damage creep since 2.0 with the removal of softcaps and the addition of cp.

In patch 2.0 when the damage was high, I played as a stamina nightblade, rolling around and instagibbing shield users with tornado.

In imperial city patch, battle spirit was increased which lowered the ttk, and hid the damage creep. I played a magicka nb on day one of the patch and felt like a god. My light armor felt tanky, my shields lasted longer, I could burst other players with prox det.

Since then damage has continued creeping. Movement speed was nerfed and we saw a root meta, retreating menuvuers was nerfed which further played in stamina's favor. Players spread out from siege and VD, which caters to stam builds with their mobilty to pick them apart.

Damage creep is continuing, futher increasing the desire to make tanky build with block or dodgeroll rather than trying to use shields and light armor.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree that stam inherently benefits more from damage creep overall. I just think that stamina has benefited from many of the design decisions that may not have necessarily been intended to help one archetype over another (perfect examples include heavy armor buffs, vitality pots, and the snare meta).

An example of a less obvious of a design decision that indirectly affected the strength of magicka builds (predominantly shield users) is the buff to weapon damage\spell damage stacking following the release of IC relative to other stats. For example, Pre IC I ran around +38k max mag with 150cp as a destro\resto build. Now with 531cp and a similar amount of max magicka bonuses I sit in the neighborhood of 45-47kk (if I ran infused). With this minute increase in magicka\resource pools, what's considered good weapon damage has skyrocketed from around 4k in 1.6 to over 6k now. With shield strength being based solely on magicka\max stat and damage being a combination of the both stamina\magicka and weapon\spell damage, damage and heals have scaled much better over the last year than shields have. There are many more examples of changes like this and they're every bit as impactful as the more obvious buffs, dawnbreaker\incap buffs etc.

Jar_Ek

I have read this thread with interest whilst holed up in hospital recovering from surgery. Now for full disclosure I play a stam sorc main and have since softcaps made us choose a route.
Naturally like everyone else, I have multiple alts covering a range of other playstyles both magicka and stamina.

Currently magicka is generally in a worse place than stamina. I am not in 100% agreement over the reasons though. The reasons seem to be threefold:
1. Shields now have a high rating, limited duration but can still be stacked. This makes them expensive and unreliable (cc can be deadly now) and limits playstyles as weapon swaps are not reliable enough to use back barred shields as a main defence. However if duration is increased without factoring in stacking then we are back to shield builds that are unkillable and who can solo vet group content, whilst still able to dish out significant damage.
Shields need an overhaul wrt CP, stacking, durations, sets, values - the works but I doubt that will happen
2. Light armour passives are weak and don't make much sense. They are theoretically offensive in nature but do a worse job than medium which is theoretically more balanced between defence and offence. I agree light armour should better support magicka defensive skill use but going back to long duration, high value, stacked shields is not the correct way in my view.
3. Stamina dodge rolls and break free is expensive for magicka builds, relatively speaking. And magicka mobility equivalents aren't universal and have limitations (i.e. bolt escape). I unsure as to which magicka skills provide a break free + root, snare, stun immunity... as well as a useful defence.

So how do you resolve the conundrum? Personally I would start by changing shields so they don't stack. There have been interesting ideas in the thread on this to do with a protection buff backed with LA passives. That might work, or might not it as a stamina build would have 30% damage resist + armour + dodge roll + vigour heals vs a LA 50% damage resist + heals. Once shields don't stack or maybe stack as major + minor (where minor is 20% effective strength) they can be more easily balanced.

Also what if bolt escape was literally a magicka version of dodge roll with the same range? And one morph was offensive (streak) and the other defensive (removes cc effects + cc immunity)

Sorry but I am getting too tired to think straight now so I'm going to leave it there.


Btw agree wrt the Atronach.

Dracane

@Jar_Ek Is everything alright ? Surgery sounds not good.