Please return the milegate scaffolding

Draxys

Yes

yodased wrote: »

... lazy way of "fixing" a small annoyance...

Zenimax business plan

LMar

Yes

The patch notes mention they were removed to avoid odd gap closing behaviour on those stairs. I have seen people gap closing from the ground to the first level of the scaffolds (not the mile gate) but i didn't think it was odd as you can already do that from the ground onto some big boulders.
But multiple level fights are awesome and we need them back

Cinbri

Enodoc wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Here is a picture of the Ash Milegate as it appears on PTS. No third-floor access, way less fun.

Have you got a picture from Live? I can't work out what's missing

There is no stairs on 3rd floor and wooden platfroms on 3rd floor to travel from one tower to another.

Enodoc

Cinbri wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Here is a picture of the Ash Milegate as it appears on PTS. No third-floor access, way less fun.

Have you got a picture from Live? I can't work out what's missing

There is no stairs on 3rd floor and wooden platfroms on 3rd floor to travel from one tower to another.

Where though? I have this old picture from Live and I don't see anything different (unless it's behind the tree). Or did it get added some time after this picture was taken? If so, they're only removing something that didn't exist in the first place.

Djeriko

Yes

Bring the stairs back but make it so no one gets stuck inside the frames. \

Congrats on the doors removed. Now exploiters also have to get good instead of just the other way around. Getting free AP sounds fun but working around mechanics that the devs did not intend to be played causes the game to be changed. The result was seen in nerfs of abilities like DK chains not being able to reach too high or too low of an angle, dk dragon leap and the nb teleport strike not reaching a high enough height so people could not leap on top of walls, etc.

Thus anyone who is QQ because doors are gone are just mad because they have to find their next exploit. Don't worry tho, there are tons more...

God_flakes

BFT88 wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

No maybe just the scaffolding platform is gone and accompanied silly cage beneath it. Are you positive the stairs are gone and the 3rd floor is inaccessible?

Yes, extremely positive.

Hmmmph. Wonder why they did that. So second floor is open but no more third floor goofing off?

Saramis already said why they did it and what exploit could be done on the third floor, and I even quoted it in a reply in an attempt to get people to read it.

But alas, no one reads.

Oh I read it. I just didn't understand what he meant by "take the camp". People were rezzing again and again?

Chillic

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

I am interested to know what prompted this change to begin with. Remember, some communication with the community may help to avoid having to spend time on a change only to revert it.

Jules

Yes

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

God_flakes

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Recremen

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

They can be. It depends on who's on them at the time, same as anywhere else. The tight confines and distance from objectives makes them pretty good for it, actually!

Ghostbane

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

It is a popular chokepoint, all shapes and sizes will utilize it.

Sanct16

Yes

Enodoc wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Here is a picture of the Ash Milegate as it appears on PTS. No third-floor access, way less fun.

Have you got a picture from Live? I can't work out what's missing

There is no stairs on 3rd floor and wooden platfroms on 3rd floor to travel from one tower to another.

Where though? I have this old picture from Live and I don't see anything different (unless it's behind the tree). Or did it get added some time after this picture was taken? If so, they're only removing something that didn't exist in the first place.

Yes they added it with Thieves Guild.

While we are at removing stuff that didn't exist in the first place, can we please remove all Trials, Craglorn, Hew's Bane and whatever other pve stuff got implemented since launch?

God_flakes

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

They can be. It depends on who's on them at the time, same as anywhere else. The tight confines and distance from objectives makes them pretty good for it, actually!

What we hope isn't what actually is. Gates are rarely small man. More often than not they're two factions running headlong into one another. Idk how many times a night I beg DC to stop zerging chal gate. It's so repetitive. I'm sure many Ep are tired of it too. If only it were small man there it might be fun.

Enodoc

Sanct16 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Here is a picture of the Ash Milegate as it appears on PTS. No third-floor access, way less fun.

Have you got a picture from Live? I can't work out what's missing

There is no stairs on 3rd floor and wooden platfroms on 3rd floor to travel from one tower to another.

Where though? I have this old picture from Live and I don't see anything different (unless it's behind the tree). Or did it get added some time after this picture was taken? If so, they're only removing something that didn't exist in the first place.

Yes they added it with Thieves Guild.

While we are at removing stuff that didn't exist in the first place, can we please remove all Trials, Craglorn, Hew's Bane and whatever other pve stuff got implemented since launch?

Not what I meant. Point being, they must have added them for a reason. What was the reason they added them? Why is that no longer valid? We need to convince ZOS that the reason they added them outweighs the reason they removed them. And if that doesn't work, the reason they removed them needs to be addressed so that the reason they added them remains the only contributing factor.

Sugaroverdose

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

Recremen

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

They can be. It depends on who's on them at the time, same as anywhere else. The tight confines and distance from objectives makes them pretty good for it, actually!

What we hope isn't what actually is. Gates are rarely small man. More often than not they're two factions running headlong into one another. Idk how many times a night I beg DC to stop zerging chal gate. It's so repetitive. I'm sure many Ep are tired of it too. If only it were small man there it might be fun.

The original claim Jules made was that small scale thrives at the gates.

I supported the claim by offering reasons why it thrives.

You support the claim by saying "Gates are rarely small man", which implies that gates are sometimes small man.

Gates are small man. QED

For real though, while the gates can be and are utilized by larger groups, they also can be and are utilized for small-scale fights. I saw Jules herself rocking it with like, two other people just a few weeks ago. There are few places where that can happen well, and the gates are one of them.

Recremen

Yes

Enodoc wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Here is a picture of the Ash Milegate as it appears on PTS. No third-floor access, way less fun.

Have you got a picture from Live? I can't work out what's missing

There is no stairs on 3rd floor and wooden platfroms on 3rd floor to travel from one tower to another.

Where though? I have this old picture from Live and I don't see anything different (unless it's behind the tree). Or did it get added some time after this picture was taken? If so, they're only removing something that didn't exist in the first place.

Yes they added it with Thieves Guild.

While we are at removing stuff that didn't exist in the first place, can we please remove all Trials, Craglorn, Hew's Bane and whatever other pve stuff got implemented since launch?

Not what I meant. Point being, they must have added them for a reason. What was the reason they added them? Why is that no longer valid? We need to convince ZOS that the reason they added them outweighs the reason they removed them. And if that doesn't work, the reason they removed them needs to be addressed so that the reason they added them remains the only contributing factor.

Addendum: the scaffolding and stairs were added with Imperial City patch.

For me, on of the most important things about the gates is the stacked, vertical terrain with multiple ways to go up or down. Especially down. I remember running around with Decibel doing jumps to different levels from positions nobody was expecting. We were outnumbered and had people trying to camp the stairs but we found The Ways to bypass and come up behind the groups trying to sandwich us. Did some of that with Rage as well, and now I'm starting to do it with Fantasia. Good times to be had by all.

God_flakes

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

They can be. It depends on who's on them at the time, same as anywhere else. The tight confines and distance from objectives makes them pretty good for it, actually!

What we hope isn't what actually is. Gates are rarely small man. More often than not they're two factions running headlong into one another. Idk how many times a night I beg DC to stop zerging chal gate. It's so repetitive. I'm sure many Ep are tired of it too. If only it were small man there it might be fun.

The original claim Jules made was that small scale thrives at the gates.

I supported the claim by offering reasons why it thrives.

You support the claim by saying "Gates are rarely small man", which implies that gates are sometimes small man.

Gates are small man. QED

For real though, while the gates can be and are utilized by larger groups, they also can be and are utilized for small-scale fights. I saw Jules herself rocking it with like, two other people just a few weeks ago. There are few places where that can happen well, and the gates are one of them.

So let me see if I have this straight. Gates are occasionally small man....so the removal of stairs and scaffolding on the gates is a smack in the face to small man? Yeah, again not buying it.

Once two or three start fighting at chal gate and the pugs see crossed swords it becomes an all out two faction mash at the gate. Maybe small man minded people need to start mutually agreeing to fight at the less popular northern gate between DC and KC. Nobody is EVER there. I think small man people (myself including) should start getting creative and stop expecting to have small man in popular AvA places.

Recremen

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

They can be. It depends on who's on them at the time, same as anywhere else. The tight confines and distance from objectives makes them pretty good for it, actually!

What we hope isn't what actually is. Gates are rarely small man. More often than not they're two factions running headlong into one another. Idk how many times a night I beg DC to stop zerging chal gate. It's so repetitive. I'm sure many Ep are tired of it too. If only it were small man there it might be fun.

The original claim Jules made was that small scale thrives at the gates.

I supported the claim by offering reasons why it thrives.

You support the claim by saying "Gates are rarely small man", which implies that gates are sometimes small man.

Gates are small man. QED

For real though, while the gates can be and are utilized by larger groups, they also can be and are utilized for small-scale fights. I saw Jules herself rocking it with like, two other people just a few weeks ago. There are few places where that can happen well, and the gates are one of them.

So let me see if I have this straight. Gates are occasionally small man....so the removal of stairs and scaffolding on the gates is a smack in the face to small man? Yeah, again not buying it.

Once two or three start fighting at chal gate and the pugs see crossed swords it becomes an all out two faction mash at the gate. Maybe small man minded people need to start mutually agreeing to fight at the less popular northern gate between DC and KC. Nobody is EVER there. I think small man people (myself including) should start getting creative and stop expecting to have small man in popular AvA places.

I think you misunderstand, small-group play and faction stacking are not permanent qualities of an area, they are dynamic systems subject to change. So yes, if an actually-persistent property of an area gets taken away, and if that property had been conducive to small-group play, then it necessarily impacts small-group play.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect small-group play at the gates, it is just not reasonable to expect that the area will always be conducive to small-group play. It's going to depend on how many people are at the gate at a given time. If you and three buddies are fighting a steady stream of players for 5 minutes and then suddenly two giant guilds show up and start duking it out, those 5 minutes of small-group play don't magically disappear from time and space. You had your small-group fights, and then it turned into large-group fights.

Incidentally, that's why it's not a good idea to go to less-traveled areas looking for small-group fights. I mean, unless you're organizing with other small groups from other factions, when people talk about "small-group fighting" they usually are relying on a steady stream of random enemies. That means, if you want to ever actually fight people, you need to go to higher-traffic areas and wait for the right opportunity. If it's a high-traffic area, you're more likely to find smaller groups rolling through trying to get to an objective, such as Chalman, Aleswell, Ash, Bleakers, or Nikel. You might also see large groups rolling through, but it's not like that 100% of the time.

God_flakes

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

They can be. It depends on who's on them at the time, same as anywhere else. The tight confines and distance from objectives makes them pretty good for it, actually!

What we hope isn't what actually is. Gates are rarely small man. More often than not they're two factions running headlong into one another. Idk how many times a night I beg DC to stop zerging chal gate. It's so repetitive. I'm sure many Ep are tired of it too. If only it were small man there it might be fun.

The original claim Jules made was that small scale thrives at the gates.

I supported the claim by offering reasons why it thrives.

You support the claim by saying "Gates are rarely small man", which implies that gates are sometimes small man.

Gates are small man. QED

For real though, while the gates can be and are utilized by larger groups, they also can be and are utilized for small-scale fights. I saw Jules herself rocking it with like, two other people just a few weeks ago. There are few places where that can happen well, and the gates are one of them.

So let me see if I have this straight. Gates are occasionally small man....so the removal of stairs and scaffolding on the gates is a smack in the face to small man? Yeah, again not buying it.

Once two or three start fighting at chal gate and the pugs see crossed swords it becomes an all out two faction mash at the gate. Maybe small man minded people need to start mutually agreeing to fight at the less popular northern gate between DC and KC. Nobody is EVER there. I think small man people (myself including) should start getting creative and stop expecting to have small man in popular AvA places.

I think you misunderstand, small-group play and faction stacking are not permanent qualities of an area, they are dynamic systems subject to change. So yes, if an actually-persistent property of an area gets taken away, and if that property had been conducive to small-group play, then it necessarily impacts small-group play.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect small-group play at the gates, it is just not reasonable to expect that the area will always be conducive to small-group play. It's going to depend on how many people are at the gate at a given time. If you and three buddies are fighting a steady stream of players for 5 minutes and then suddenly two giant guilds show up and start duking it out, those 5 minutes of small-group play don't magically disappear from time and space. You had your small-group fights, and then it turned into large-group fights.

Incidentally, that's why it's not a good idea to go to less-traveled areas looking for small-group fights. I mean, unless you're organizing with other small groups from other factions, when people talk about "small-group fighting" they usually are relying on a steady stream of random enemies. That means, if you want to ever actually fight people, you need to go to higher-traffic areas and wait for the right opportunity. If it's a high-traffic area, you're more likely to find smaller groups rolling through trying to get to an objective, such as Chalman, Aleswell, Ash, Bleakers, or Nikel. You might also see large groups rolling through, but it's not like that 100% of the time.

I think you're not understanding me, either. And I'm getting a little tired of all the small man people griping that all the changes affect them more. Isn't this a tad narcissistic? The changes affect anyone who plays, really, and in different ways. Removing stairs and doors isn't hurting small man in any way shape or form. Small man will still be viable. So this claim is silly. Everyone can crouch and stealth up through a gate of they're advancing towards an objective on the other side. I guess I'm willing to wait and see how exactly these changes impact groups, rather than knee jerk claiming they're an offense to one size group.

Recremen

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

They can be. It depends on who's on them at the time, same as anywhere else. The tight confines and distance from objectives makes them pretty good for it, actually!

What we hope isn't what actually is. Gates are rarely small man. More often than not they're two factions running headlong into one another. Idk how many times a night I beg DC to stop zerging chal gate. It's so repetitive. I'm sure many Ep are tired of it too. If only it were small man there it might be fun.

The original claim Jules made was that small scale thrives at the gates.

I supported the claim by offering reasons why it thrives.

You support the claim by saying "Gates are rarely small man", which implies that gates are sometimes small man.

Gates are small man. QED

For real though, while the gates can be and are utilized by larger groups, they also can be and are utilized for small-scale fights. I saw Jules herself rocking it with like, two other people just a few weeks ago. There are few places where that can happen well, and the gates are one of them.

So let me see if I have this straight. Gates are occasionally small man....so the removal of stairs and scaffolding on the gates is a smack in the face to small man? Yeah, again not buying it.

Once two or three start fighting at chal gate and the pugs see crossed swords it becomes an all out two faction mash at the gate. Maybe small man minded people need to start mutually agreeing to fight at the less popular northern gate between DC and KC. Nobody is EVER there. I think small man people (myself including) should start getting creative and stop expecting to have small man in popular AvA places.

I think you misunderstand, small-group play and faction stacking are not permanent qualities of an area, they are dynamic systems subject to change. So yes, if an actually-persistent property of an area gets taken away, and if that property had been conducive to small-group play, then it necessarily impacts small-group play.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect small-group play at the gates, it is just not reasonable to expect that the area will always be conducive to small-group play. It's going to depend on how many people are at the gate at a given time. If you and three buddies are fighting a steady stream of players for 5 minutes and then suddenly two giant guilds show up and start duking it out, those 5 minutes of small-group play don't magically disappear from time and space. You had your small-group fights, and then it turned into large-group fights.

Incidentally, that's why it's not a good idea to go to less-traveled areas looking for small-group fights. I mean, unless you're organizing with other small groups from other factions, when people talk about "small-group fighting" they usually are relying on a steady stream of random enemies. That means, if you want to ever actually fight people, you need to go to higher-traffic areas and wait for the right opportunity. If it's a high-traffic area, you're more likely to find smaller groups rolling through trying to get to an objective, such as Chalman, Aleswell, Ash, Bleakers, or Nikel. You might also see large groups rolling through, but it's not like that 100% of the time.

I think you're not understanding me, either. And I'm getting a little tired of all the small man people griping that all the changes affect them more. Isn't this a tad narcissistic? The changes affect anyone who plays, really, and in different ways. Removing stairs and doors isn't hurting small man in any way shape or form. Small man will still be viable. So this claim is silly. Everyone can crouch and stealth up through a gate of they're advancing towards an objective on the other side. I guess I'm willing to wait and see how exactly these changes impact groups, rather than knee jerk claiming they're an offense to one size group.

If you take away a feature that makes small-group play more fun/viable in a certain area, then yes, you are definitely hurting small-group play disproportionately. That's just math. The set of areas conducive to small-group play has a size smaller than the set of areas conducive to large-group play because every area on the map can be used well by large groups whereas only some areas of the map have features that let small groups draw people into choke points, behind line-of-sight, etc. Since all areas conducive to small-scale are contained within the set of areas conducive to large-scale, we can call the small-scale set a subset of the large-scale set. Taking away an element from the small-scale set necessarily takes away an element from the large-scale set.

Let us remove an element from the small-scale set. Then the same element is removed from the large-scale set. This action decreases the size of both sets by one. Since the small-scale set is smaller than the large-scale set, the small-scale set is decreased by a larger percentage than the large-scale set. Thus, it is accurate to say that small-scale combat is hurt disproportionately more than large-scale combat by the removal of an element conducive to small-scale. It's not narcissistic, it's a provable fact.

Taylor_MB

Countless times I've had small (or solo) skirmishes on the third floor of a gate with zergs just rolling by underneath or only bothering to clear the middle floor.

Removing access just pushes everyone closer together.

@God_flakes The tower door changes and the milegate changes effect small man because it provides less opportunity to kite a zerg or shed agro of a larger group, it's not that hard to understand.

God_flakes

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Countless times I've had small (or solo) skirmishes on the third floor of a gate with zergs just rolling by underneath or only bothering to clear the middle floor.

Removing access just pushes everyone closer together.

@God_flakes The tower door changes and the milegate changes effect small man because it provides less opportunity to kite a zerg or shed agro of a larger group, it's not that hard to understand.

Doors are supposed to go both ways. Even small man shouldn't have the advantage of a door delay because what is used by the seemingly valiant small man is in turn abused by the filthy zerg. I don't know why THAT is so hard to understand.

Taylor_MB

Was anyone defending the door delay? Did literally anyone say that is a good thing? Please quote anyone who said that.

The best solution would be keeping the door but not having your weapons put away when entering, or the door vanishes (opens) when the flag is capped. ZoS will never do either of these things, which is why people are defending the door in its current state, better then no door for shedding agro.

God_flakes

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Was anyone defending the door delay? Did literally anyone say that is a good thing? Please quote anyone who said that.

The best solution would be keeping the door but not having your weapons put away when entering, or the door vanishes (opens) when the flag is capped. ZoS will never do either of these things, which is why people are defending the door in its current state, better then no door for shedding agro.

So people exploiting a broken mechanic to farm other players is preferable to no door. Mmmmmmmk.

Ghostbane

Yes

If the resource does not belong to you => No usable entrance
If the resource belongs to you => Open Doorway

#noDoors
#everyoneHappy

umagon

I'm still stuck in a cage of wood and regret, someone please come help me

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

Taylor_MB

It's only a farm if you feed them, @God_flakes. Even with a door they are incredibly easy to break up, only need 1 person to get in and up with oils.

--No Door--
pros:
1) slightly harder to tower farm
2) tower farm can be ignored
cons:
1) provides no escape from a zerg

--Door--
pros:
1) can provide escape from zerg
2) tower farm can be ignored
cons:
1) slightly easier to tower farm

What people are saying is that removing the door will have almost no bearing on tower farming, they will still happen and only be slightly easier to break up (they are already pretty easy). The most significant thing this will effect is small groups or solo kiting a zerg, this becomes significantly more difficult when they can immediately chase you into the resource tower where they also can't get hit by npcs (not as much of a game changer in CP servers).

Tower farm being slightly easier to break up VS significantly harder to escape a zerg

No one is defending a dodgy mechanic that makes tower farming slightly easier (thanks for providing those quotes), we are defending two features that lessen a zergs ability to fight / control an area.

Jules

Yes

Ghostbane wrote: »

If the resource does not belong to you => No usable entrance
If the resource belongs to you => Open Doorway

#noDoors
#everyoneHappy

I'm fine with this. It requires the small group to pass through a force field of sorts and zerglings chasing them will be stopped unless they own the resource.

Basically, it's a door anyway.

Jules

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Again just proving how ignorant you are to small scale pvp.