Please return the milegate scaffolding

Sandman929

God_flakes wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Countless times I've had small (or solo) skirmishes on the third floor of a gate with zergs just rolling by underneath or only bothering to clear the middle floor.

Removing access just pushes everyone closer together.

@God_flakes The tower door changes and the milegate changes effect small man because it provides less opportunity to kite a zerg or shed agro of a larger group, it's not that hard to understand.

Doors are supposed to go both ways. Even small man shouldn't have the advantage of a door delay because what is used by the seemingly valiant small man is in turn abused by the filthy zerg. I don't know why THAT is so hard to understand.

Wasn't Vicious Death supposed to benefit the "small man"? Everything that benefits small groups ridiculously overpowers zergs. I've stepped into a few resource doors to find the 20+ "small man" hiding inside.

Recremen

Yes

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

God_flakes

Taylor_MB wrote: »

It's only a farm if you feed them, @God_flakes. Even with a door they are incredibly easy to break up, only need 1 person to get in and up with oils.

--No Door--
pros:
1) slightly harder to tower farm
2) tower farm can be ignored
cons:
1) provides no escape from a zerg

--Door--
pros:
1) can provide escape from zerg
2) tower farm can be ignored
cons:
1) slightly easier to tower farm

What people are saying is that removing the door will have almost no bearing on tower farming, they will still happen and only be slightly easier to break up (they are already pretty easy). The most significant thing this will effect is small groups or solo kiting a zerg, this becomes significantly more difficult when they can immediately chase you into the resource tower where they also can't get hit by npcs (not as much of a game changer in CP servers).

Tower farm being slightly easier to break up VS significantly harder to escape a zerg

No one is defending a dodgy mechanic that makes tower farming slightly easier (thanks for providing those quotes), we are defending two features that lessen a zergs ability to fight / control an area.

And the farm is only a problem if it is only successful as a result of exploiting a known broken mechanic.

And holding a resource tower of a resource you don't own is not stopping or evading a zerg in any way.

God_flakes

Jules wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Again just proving how ignorant you are to small scale pvp.

Yeah sorry I don't go to gates (known zerg choke points) to small man. Is this why I always see you embedded in a zerg? You think you're small manning within a sea of red? sure it may only be you and German in that Ts but there's a whole lotta Ep in front and behind and beside you. p

Recremen

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Again just proving how ignorant you are to small scale pvp.

Yeah sorry I don't go to gates (known zerg choke points) to small man. Is this why I always see you embedded in a zerg? You think you're small manning within a sea of red? sure it may only be you and German in that Ts but there's a whole lotta Ep in front and behind and beside you. p

I've just about never seen Jules embedded in a zerg. It's almost like people keep existing after we stop looking at them, and that our own experiences don't sum up to the whole of their actions.

umagon

I'm still stuck in a cage of wood and regret, someone please come help me

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

No, I will not retract any part of my statements nor will I make any apologizes. I pay for a product and I expect it to work correctly. The whole idea that people can make subpar products and expect to get monetary compensation for doing so needs to end. With software development it's always the same excuses, some mistakes are understandable but long standing issues are unacceptable.

And yes I very familiar with transistor logic I understand how things work. There are many engineering fields where many outcomes exist yet they are able to create end products with little or no defects. Then comes the software engineers who want a exception to the expectations of creating a commercial end product.

People don't want products that don't function correctly and/or don't function as advertised. And they have right to complain about when they paid for the product. If software engineers don't want complains then create software that executes correctly or don't create software at all and find something else to do.

God_flakes

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Again just proving how ignorant you are to small scale pvp.

Yeah sorry I don't go to gates (known zerg choke points) to small man. Is this why I always see you embedded in a zerg? You think you're small manning within a sea of red? sure it may only be you and German in that Ts but there's a whole lotta Ep in front and behind and beside you. p

I've just about never seen Jules embedded in a zerg. It's almost like people keep existing after we stop looking at them, and that our own experiences don't sum up to the whole of their actions.

Gee, it's almost like if someone doesn't see someone doing something.....they must not (even ever) be doing it.

Recremen

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Again just proving how ignorant you are to small scale pvp.

Yeah sorry I don't go to gates (known zerg choke points) to small man. Is this why I always see you embedded in a zerg? You think you're small manning within a sea of red? sure it may only be you and German in that Ts but there's a whole lotta Ep in front and behind and beside you. p

I've just about never seen Jules embedded in a zerg. It's almost like people keep existing after we stop looking at them, and that our own experiences don't sum up to the whole of their actions.

Gee, it's almost like if someone doesn't see someone doing something.....they must not (even ever) be doing it.

You were trying to imply that Jules doesn't do small-scale PvP just because see them next to other EP. I was merely providing the necessary counterpoint to disprove your assertion. Don't hate.

God_flakes

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Again just proving how ignorant you are to small scale pvp.

Yeah sorry I don't go to gates (known zerg choke points) to small man. Is this why I always see you embedded in a zerg? You think you're small manning within a sea of red? sure it may only be you and German in that Ts but there's a whole lotta Ep in front and behind and beside you. p

I've just about never seen Jules embedded in a zerg. It's almost like people keep existing after we stop looking at them, and that our own experiences don't sum up to the whole of their actions.

Gee, it's almost like if someone doesn't see someone doing something.....they must not (even ever) be doing it.

You were trying to imply that Jules doesn't do small-scale PvP just because see them next to other EP. I was merely providing the necessary counterpoint to disprove your assertion. Don't hate.

I'm sure she does. Let's not argue Jules, ok?

Don't we all at some point run around small man while waiting for groups to get up and organized? I actually love to small man and I recognize it hasn't exactly been rewarded. Large groups can also be fun and have their time and place. I don't think the two need to be fighting about this issue and making it seem as though there are huge disparities between the two. Both playstyles are valid and acceptable in this game. Most people do both and that's also acceptable. Using a broken mechanic again and again every night to "farm" even new and inexperienced people is NOT ok. Can we agree there?

Fyaal

Yes

So no more tower doors, no more 3rd floor of ash milegate.

Guess Haxus and @Hektik_V is going to get inventive with where to farm you now.

Manoekin

Yes

umagon wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

No, I will not retract any part of my statements nor will I make any apologizes. I pay for a product and I expect it to work correctly. The whole idea that people can make subpar products and expect to get monetary compensation for doing so needs to end. With software development it's always the same excuses, some mistakes are understandable but long standing issues are unacceptable.

And yes I very familiar with transistor logic I understand how things work. There are many engineering fields where many outcomes exist yet they are able to create end products with little or no defects. Then comes the software engineers who want a exception to the expectations of creating a commercial end product.

People don't want products that don't function correctly and/or don't function as advertised. And they have right to complain about when they paid for the product. If software engineers don't want complains then create software that executes correctly or don't create software at all and find something else to do.

You expect it to work the way you want it to work. ESO works correctly. It may not work very well in the circumstances that we want it to, but it works. What you're asking for is fast food that looks as good as it does in the commercials. It's just not going to happen.

Recremen

Yes

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Again, just like with the removal of tower doors, this is just one more way to nerf los and the environments in which small scale thrives. Disappointing zos.

Now you're claiming gates are small man?

My sides my sides.

Again just proving how ignorant you are to small scale pvp.

Yeah sorry I don't go to gates (known zerg choke points) to small man. Is this why I always see you embedded in a zerg? You think you're small manning within a sea of red? sure it may only be you and German in that Ts but there's a whole lotta Ep in front and behind and beside you. p

I've just about never seen Jules embedded in a zerg. It's almost like people keep existing after we stop looking at them, and that our own experiences don't sum up to the whole of their actions.

Gee, it's almost like if someone doesn't see someone doing something.....they must not (even ever) be doing it.

You were trying to imply that Jules doesn't do small-scale PvP just because see them next to other EP. I was merely providing the necessary counterpoint to disprove your assertion. Don't hate.

I'm sure she does. Let's not argue Jules, ok?

Don't we all at some point run around small man while waiting for groups to get up and organized? I actually love to small man and I recognize it hasn't exactly been rewarded. Large groups can also be fun and have their time and place. I don't think the two need to be fighting about this issue and making it seem as though there are huge disparities between the two. Both playstyles are valid and acceptable in this game. Most people do both and that's also acceptable. Using a broken mechanic again and again every night to "farm" even new and inexperienced people is NOT ok. Can we agree there?

Yeah, nothing wrong with the above statements. The thing about the door, though, is that not all "tower farmers" even use the broken door mechanics. Still, since this thread is about the gate scaffolding and platforms, it all seems a bit of a moot point. I'm just glad they're reconsidering the decision to remove them.

umagon

I'm still stuck in a cage of wood and regret, someone please come help me

Manoekin wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

No, I will not retract any part of my statements nor will I make any apologizes. I pay for a product and I expect it to work correctly. The whole idea that people can make subpar products and expect to get monetary compensation for doing so needs to end. With software development it's always the same excuses, some mistakes are understandable but long standing issues are unacceptable.

And yes I very familiar with transistor logic I understand how things work. There are many engineering fields where many outcomes exist yet they are able to create end products with little or no defects. Then comes the software engineers who want a exception to the expectations of creating a commercial end product.

People don't want products that don't function correctly and/or don't function as advertised. And they have right to complain about when they paid for the product. If software engineers don't want complains then create software that executes correctly or don't create software at all and find something else to do.

You expect it to work the way you want it to work. ESO works correctly. It may not work very well in the circumstances that we want it to, but it works. What you're asking for is fast food that looks as good as it does in the commercials. It's just not going to happen.

No, I do not expect the game to work how I want I never stated such. I expect it to function correctly and/or as advertised. If it functioned correctly there would not be bug fixes in the update patches; so no it does not function correctly. The fast food comparison is incorrect as you are making a comparison that is based on aesthetics and what I am discussing is functionality. The two are completely different subjects.

wayfarerx

umagon wrote: »

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HA, haha... haha... okay... whew! One sec...








HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

* cries *

OMG

We just have to send the correct instructions guys! Why did we not think of that?! It's obvious now that I hear someone say it! We just... have to send...





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, couldn't help myself

Sandman929

wayfarerx wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HA, haha... haha... okay... whew! One sec...








HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

* cries *

OMG

We just have to send the correct instructions guys! Why did we not think of that?! It's obvious now that I hear someone say it! We just... have to send...





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, couldn't help myself

With this knowledge, I think we can all be better engineers now.

Recremen

Yes

umagon wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

No, I will not retract any part of my statements nor will I make any apologizes. I pay for a product and I expect it to work correctly. The whole idea that people can make subpar products and expect to get monetary compensation for doing so needs to end. With software development it's always the same excuses, some mistakes are understandable but long standing issues are unacceptable.

And yes I very familiar with transistor logic I understand how things work. There are many engineering fields where many outcomes exist yet they are able to create end products with little or no defects. Then comes the software engineers who want a exception to the expectations of creating a commercial end product.

People don't want products that don't function correctly and/or don't function as advertised. And they have right to complain about when they paid for the product. If software engineers don't want complains then create software that executes correctly or don't create software at all and find something else to do.

ESO is actually above-par in all regards I can think of, so I don't even know what you're complaining about. If the scant mechanics that are imbalanced or dysfunctional are too much for you to bear, then you're free to discontinue the use of the service, but the rest of us who are having loads of fun are going to keep supporting the product we enjoy.

Understanding transistor logic is so far removed from understanding the actual programming of a product that I honestly don't know why you even brought it up. Code development is invariably done in higher-level languages like C++, Python, Java, etc. That is because those languages have interpreters implemented on the vast majority of consumer-level computers, and the interpreters are more or less what gets you to the actual transistor-level code for your specific machine. Just at that level, there's plenty of room for code to behave in undesirable ways, and that's completely out of the hands of the developers. When you then add the nearly uncountable combinations of system interactions between UI, keyboard/mouse/controller input, video and sound output, client-server communication, decades-out-of-date internet infrastructure, and all the rest, it becomes absolutely ridiculous to expect a product that will be flawless.

Moreover, other engineers make products which fail all the time. I can't think of a single product that doesn't behave unexpectedly when the user mishandles it. For example, something as simple as a wrench is going to behave wonky when you try to use it as a hammer. Commercial hardware fails constantly when used in unintended or unexpected ways. We don't exactly expect a car to fill itself with gas when the user forgets, for instance. We also can't predict the exact moment it will cease moving when it eventually runs out of gas because there are too many variables to account for. When something is as user-driven as an MMO, these problems are exacerbated by orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude.

You don't need to withdraw your statement and apologize, but at least everyone following the conversation is going to know it's purely out of stubbornness and not grounded in any kind of coherent, logical rationale.

Recremen

Yes

Fyaal wrote: »

So no more tower doors, no more 3rd floor of ash milegate.

Guess Haxus and @Hektik_V is going to get inventive with where to farm you now.

I hope you're not talking about me specifically, darling.

God_flakes

Fyaal wrote: »

So no more tower doors, no more 3rd floor of ash milegate.

Guess Haxus and @Hektik_V is going to get inventive with where to farm you now.

And maybe the devs will get more inventive about stymying them.

umagon

I'm still stuck in a cage of wood and regret, someone please come help me

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

No, I will not retract any part of my statements nor will I make any apologizes. I pay for a product and I expect it to work correctly. The whole idea that people can make subpar products and expect to get monetary compensation for doing so needs to end. With software development it's always the same excuses, some mistakes are understandable but long standing issues are unacceptable.

And yes I very familiar with transistor logic I understand how things work. There are many engineering fields where many outcomes exist yet they are able to create end products with little or no defects. Then comes the software engineers who want a exception to the expectations of creating a commercial end product.

People don't want products that don't function correctly and/or don't function as advertised. And they have right to complain about when they paid for the product. If software engineers don't want complains then create software that executes correctly or don't create software at all and find something else to do.

ESO is actually above-par in all regards I can think of, so I don't even know what you're complaining about. If the scant mechanics that are imbalanced or dysfunctional are too much for you to bear, then you're free to discontinue the use of the service, but the rest of us who are having loads of fun are going to keep supporting the product we enjoy.

Understanding transistor logic is so far removed from understanding the actual programming of a product that I honestly don't know why you even brought it up. Code development is invariably done in higher-level languages like C++, Python, Java, etc. That is because those languages have interpreters implemented on the vast majority of consumer-level computers, and the interpreters are more or less what gets you to the actual transistor-level code for your specific machine. Just at that level, there's plenty of room for code to behave in undesirable ways, and that's completely out of the hands of the developers. When you then add the nearly uncountable combinations of system interactions between UI, keyboard/mouse/controller input, video and sound output, client-server communication, decades-out-of-date internet infrastructure, and all the rest, it becomes absolutely ridiculous to expect a product that will be flawless.

Moreover, other engineers make products which fail all the time. I can't think of a single product that doesn't behave unexpectedly when the user mishandles it. For example, something as simple as a wrench is going to behave wonky when you try to use it as a hammer. Commercial hardware fails constantly when used in unintended or unexpected ways. We don't exactly expect a car to fill itself with gas when the user forgets, for instance. We also can't predict the exact moment it will cease moving when it eventually runs out of gas because there are too many variables to account for. When something is as user-driven as an MMO, these problems are exacerbated by orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude.

You don't need to withdraw your statement and apologize, but at least everyone following the conversation is going to know it's purely out of stubbornness and not grounded in any kind of coherent, logical rationale.

My complains are clearly stated, the rationale is coherent and it stems from dissatisfaction of the level of functionality of a product I paid for has. Stubbornness has nothing to do with it, I will always criticize products that I paid for that do not functioning correctly especially for extended periods of time. If you don't like it then you can just ignore and not respond to my comments. But don't respond and expect me to grovel and submit to your request.

zyk

While it may be true that all software is buggy at some level, that is not a blanket excuse for buggy software. There is no excuse for poor quality controls and a lack of due diligence. By my standards, ZOS has a very poor history for each of these items.

I do not blame ZOS coders. However, I do blame ZOS execs for poor management. ZOS has a long history of pushing out updates before they are ready with known severe issues. This was especially true during 2.2 and 2.3. We still deal with a 30-50% FPS drop bug and an LOD terrain bug in Cyrodiil introduced in Nov 2015.

I am a poor programmer, but I have coded professionally, and I think I can identify many of the bugs we deal with in ESO as the result of rushed coding. IMO, ZOS is too focused on new features and does not allocate enough resources to tracking and fixing bugs -- especially before an update is released.

The bugs and slow time to fix effects not only core engine functions, but also gameplay code and the implementation of items. We should not have to contend with broken sets and traits for months as we often do. These are not complicated programming issues. What is required is the will from management to allocate the necessary resources to fix these issues sooner.

Manoekin

Yes

umagon wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

No, I will not retract any part of my statements nor will I make any apologizes. I pay for a product and I expect it to work correctly. The whole idea that people can make subpar products and expect to get monetary compensation for doing so needs to end. With software development it's always the same excuses, some mistakes are understandable but long standing issues are unacceptable.

And yes I very familiar with transistor logic I understand how things work. There are many engineering fields where many outcomes exist yet they are able to create end products with little or no defects. Then comes the software engineers who want a exception to the expectations of creating a commercial end product.

People don't want products that don't function correctly and/or don't function as advertised. And they have right to complain about when they paid for the product. If software engineers don't want complains then create software that executes correctly or don't create software at all and find something else to do.

You expect it to work the way you want it to work. ESO works correctly. It may not work very well in the circumstances that we want it to, but it works. What you're asking for is fast food that looks as good as it does in the commercials. It's just not going to happen.

No, I do not expect the game to work how I want I never stated such. I expect it to function correctly and/or as advertised. If it functioned correctly there would not be bug fixes in the update patches; so no it does not function correctly. The fast food comparison is incorrect as you are making a comparison that is based on aesthetics and what I am discussing is functionality. The two are completely different subjects.

Functionality? What function does ESO do? You can play the game, yes? Then it is functional. When you bring in "correctly" you are bringing in your opinion of how it should be. When you bring up "as advertised" I bring up the fast food reference. I pay for a burger thinking it's going to be a real nice juicy burger, but instead it's *** on a bun. You buy a game expecting it to be completely bug free (which is just as asinine as assuming the food you see in commercials is what you will get), but instead you get a game with bugs.

Darnathian

Fyaal wrote: »

So no more tower doors, no more 3rd floor of ash milegate.

Guess Haxus and @Hektik_V is going to get inventive with where to farm you now.

Lol. Impossible they play objectives

Recremen

Yes

umagon wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We hear you and will be looking at this change gang!

Old Russian proverb:
"How to make people happy? Make everything as bad as possible and then return things back as they was"
When the heck game will get real fixes?

It never will. Software developers' workflow tends to be: get paid to program > make inefficient software > get paid to fix inefficient software that they just made > get paid to program another piece of software to replace the previous inefficient software. The cycle repeats because management doesn't understand at the core of things the programmers are just sending instruction sets to the cpu/gpu; and if done correctly there would rarely be any problems.

If they know what the end result should be then they should able to send the correct instructions to achieve that end result. And if they don't know how to then they cant really be called programmers in the first place. So it could be concluded they do things incorrectly for job security. Or they are really bad "programmers" and probably should not refer to themselves as programmers.

As a programmer (not on this game, but as a profession), I'd appreciate it if you fully retracted this statement and apologized to the developers. What you are describing is literally impossible to do. There is no way to program, not even for a single operating system, such that you can guarantee that all inputs will result in clean execution. You can limit the types of input accepted, and you can engineer it so that you minimize areas where the program can behave unexpectedly, but you absolutely cannot create, or even test, that a program will execute without error. This becomes a more profound issue as your program becomes more complex. Do you have several billion-billion years (just lowballing it here) to test ESO against every possible input combination? Because the devs sure don't.

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window, but demanding that all programmers make bug-free code, especially with regards to a game this complex, is asinine.

No, I will not retract any part of my statements nor will I make any apologizes. I pay for a product and I expect it to work correctly. The whole idea that people can make subpar products and expect to get monetary compensation for doing so needs to end. With software development it's always the same excuses, some mistakes are understandable but long standing issues are unacceptable.

And yes I very familiar with transistor logic I understand how things work. There are many engineering fields where many outcomes exist yet they are able to create end products with little or no defects. Then comes the software engineers who want a exception to the expectations of creating a commercial end product.

People don't want products that don't function correctly and/or don't function as advertised. And they have right to complain about when they paid for the product. If software engineers don't want complains then create software that executes correctly or don't create software at all and find something else to do.

ESO is actually above-par in all regards I can think of, so I don't even know what you're complaining about. If the scant mechanics that are imbalanced or dysfunctional are too much for you to bear, then you're free to discontinue the use of the service, but the rest of us who are having loads of fun are going to keep supporting the product we enjoy.

Understanding transistor logic is so far removed from understanding the actual programming of a product that I honestly don't know why you even brought it up. Code development is invariably done in higher-level languages like C++, Python, Java, etc. That is because those languages have interpreters implemented on the vast majority of consumer-level computers, and the interpreters are more or less what gets you to the actual transistor-level code for your specific machine. Just at that level, there's plenty of room for code to behave in undesirable ways, and that's completely out of the hands of the developers. When you then add the nearly uncountable combinations of system interactions between UI, keyboard/mouse/controller input, video and sound output, client-server communication, decades-out-of-date internet infrastructure, and all the rest, it becomes absolutely ridiculous to expect a product that will be flawless.

Moreover, other engineers make products which fail all the time. I can't think of a single product that doesn't behave unexpectedly when the user mishandles it. For example, something as simple as a wrench is going to behave wonky when you try to use it as a hammer. Commercial hardware fails constantly when used in unintended or unexpected ways. We don't exactly expect a car to fill itself with gas when the user forgets, for instance. We also can't predict the exact moment it will cease moving when it eventually runs out of gas because there are too many variables to account for. When something is as user-driven as an MMO, these problems are exacerbated by orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude.

You don't need to withdraw your statement and apologize, but at least everyone following the conversation is going to know it's purely out of stubbornness and not grounded in any kind of coherent, logical rationale.

My complains are clearly stated, the rationale is coherent and it stems from dissatisfaction of the level of functionality of a product I paid for has. Stubbornness has nothing to do with it, I will always criticize products that I paid for that do not functioning correctly especially for extended periods of time. If you don't like it then you can just ignore and not respond to my comments. But don't respond and expect me to grovel and submit to your request.

Sweety you went from "understanding transistor logic" to making incredibly vapid claims about the production pipeline in like, zero seconds, you are about as coherent as a yodeling seagull at an auction house. It might makes sense from your incredibly limited understanding of the field, but that doesn't make it logical in the face of a mountain of counter-evidence. You can feel free to criticize the game and argue that you don't feel you're getting your money's worth, that's a subjective consumer experience and subject to your own determination, but your claims about intentionally sabotaging code to keep job security stem from pure ignorance on the topic. That is what I was saying you would be stubborn to hold on to.

Recremen

Yes

zyk wrote: »

While it may be true that all software is buggy at some level, that is not a blanket excuse for buggy software. There is no excuse for poor quality controls and a lack of due diligence. By my standards, ZOS has a very poor history for each of these items.

I do not blame ZOS coders. However, I do blame ZOS execs for poor management. ZOS has a long history of pushing out updates before they are ready with known severe issues. This was especially true during 2.2 and 2.3. We still deal with a 30-50% FPS drop bug and an LOD terrain bug in Cyrodiil introduced in Nov 2015.

I am a poor programmer, but I have coded professionally, and I think I can identify many of the bugs we deal with in ESO as the result of rushed coding. IMO, ZOS is too focused on new features and does not allocate enough resources to tracking and fixing bugs -- especially before an update is released.

The bugs and slow time to fix effects not only core engine functions, but also gameplay code and the implementation of items. We should not have to contend with broken sets and traits for months as we often do. These are not complicated programming issues. What is required is the will from management to allocate the necessary resources to fix these issues sooner.

I mean, I never even said that you should throw all expectations out the window when it comes to the quality of code. Indeed, I said quite the oposite, let me find it.

Recremen wrote: »

I'm not saying that you should throw all expectations out the window

Ah, there it is.

Anyway, as to your specific concerns, there is no way to prove that any of the issues we face are the result of rushed coding. They have bots that they use to try and test FPS and server performance, but there is only so much they can simulate. Some of those issues only come out of the woodwork once they hit production. It sucks, but it's not something a little more time and testing was necessarily going to fix. The LOD bug (I myself am quite displeased with this), if I recall correctly, occurred not when ZOS changed something, but when AMD put out a new version of their driver for certain video cards. I hope they fix the issue soon, but that was quite out of ZOS's hands. Heck, they might not even have anyone on their team with the expertise to fix that. I don't know how long they keep those kind of engineers once the game's already been built.

As for broken sets or traits, those are not always going to be easy fixes. To be fair on this point, they may not have done everything they could to ensure that things like damage calculation code was consistent and reusable by multiple parts of the system. I've never looked at the code, but the way some of the problems have been described makes me think this is actually a possibility, but it's also one that they've made clear they're actively working on. Beyond that, though, things like bugged set bonuses are also going to be an issue. Many of final bonuses to sets have very unique functionality, and they way that interfaces with the rest of their systems is not always going to be easy to track down, and certainly isn't going to be possible to test for every combination of interactions.

Now, with all that said, I do agree that management should always be willing to allocate adequate resources to the continuous development and debugging of code. Hopefully some of the feedback we give as players will encourage them to do so!

danno8

Yes

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Why did you do this ? If you are trying to eliminate battles away from keeps and resources , why not remove Dolmans and PvE quests instead ? I don't understand your direction with PvP anymore . If you are trying to make people fight only at keeps and eliminate small scale fight areas or just against elevated fight platforms in general . You're removing things people enjoy .

Why not fix the wall heights so gap closers can't get up instead ? Somethings we asked for instead of spots that make fights interesting away from keeps . Are you going to remove scaffolding at resources too ? Please enlighten us that don't understand what is going on in Cyrodiil with these changes .

The same reason they took doors off towers, bad players get farmed because they are bad but getting good is not reasonable apparently. Cyrodiil needs to be more accessible for care bears after all!

It would be more like if they bricked up the doors to the towers simply not allowing any access at all. You can still tower farm if you want to.

Weird change. Not sure why they would bother.

Poxheart

Here's a question: who died and made Jauriel the queen of deciding what is/isn't an appropriate location for "small scale" combat?

zyk

The Cyrodiil Terrain LOD bug is not an AMD driver issue.

I disagree with you completely on the subject of gameplay code. I believe very strongly that it is rudimentary and easily fixed if properly prioritized. We see this with some bugs such as the recent WW set bug. Many games have published gameplay code over the years. Check out the Source and Unity engines for examples. This isn't rocket science, so to speak.

Game development was once a voodoo science full of mysticism back when John Carmack was considered a diety. Now, it is largely standardized. It does not take a very skilled programmer to write solid gameplay code. In many studios, gameplay designers are expected to code it themselves.

ZOS has a well-earned reputation for pushing out major updates with major bugs. You may recall 2.3 was disastrous in terms of QA. The majority of bugs were well-represented in PTS. This wasn't an accident. ZOS management made a decision to publish the update with so many bugs rather than delay. We see this every patch. The degree to which ESO is buggy is a choice that ZOS makes. We need to hold it accountable for that.

danno8

Yes

Fyaal wrote: »

So no more tower doors, no more 3rd floor of ash milegate.

Guess Haxus and @Hektik_V is going to get inventive with where to farm you now.

They do just fine at those spiral towers out in the wild. No doors on those and yet they somehow manage to hold off a much larger zerg for a long time. So long in fact I have just walked away after 10 minutes of trying, lol. Also, that farmhouse near Faregyl.

No doors should be no big deal for the good groups out there. Just the bad ones.

Recremen

Yes

zyk wrote: »

The Cyrodiil Terrain LOD bug is not an AMD driver issue.

I disagree with you completely on the subject of gameplay code. I believe very strongly that it is rudimentary and easily fixed if properly prioritized. We see this with some bugs such as the recent WW set bug. Many games have published gameplay code over the years. Check out the Source and Unity engines for examples. This isn't rocket science, so to speak.

Game development was once a voodoo science full of mysticism back when John Carmack was considered a diety. Now, it is largely standardized. It does not take a very skilled programmer to write solid gameplay code. In many studios, gameplay designers are expected to code it themselves.

ZOS has a well-earned reputation for pushing out major updates with major bugs. You may recall 2.3 was disastrous in terms of QA. The majority of bugs were well-represented in PTS. This wasn't an accident. ZOS management made a decision to publish the update with so many bugs rather than delay. We see this every patch. The degree to which ESO is buggy is a choice that ZOS makes. We need to hold it accountable for that.

You can disagree, but what exactly is your reason for thinking it's rudimentary to fix? Have you seen the code, checked all possible interactions, and calculated the testing time required to verify that some fix won't cause problems down the line? Are you sure the WW set bug wasn't "hastily fixed" due to it affecting leaderboards? Are you sure they didn't prioritize a gamebreaking hotfix over potential problems caused by that hotfix? Why can throwing money at the code solve all the problems? Unless you're hiring programmers just to increase code-checking redundancy, I can't really see that being useful. Moreover, why would a company as prolific as ZOS not be using these standards you claim are in place?

As I've previously stated, it's fine to criticize the bugs as a consumer and demand they be focused, but making assumptions about production is totally inappropriate.

EDIT: and as for rocket science and voodoo, coders may have developed sets of "best practices", but with something so user-driven as gaming, especially something as complex as an MMO utilizing emergent server technology, it speaks volumes to the developers' skills that it hasn't been a complete crudshoot.

God_flakes

Poxheart wrote: »

Here's a question: who died and made Jauriel the queen of deciding what is/isn't an appropriate location for "small scale" combat?

What are you even talking about? I never insinuated anything of the sort. I merely pointed out the obvious map trends. Small scale usually doesn't happen at gates. Especially chal gate. And even if it does, once a zerg forms it ends pretty quickly.