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What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?
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elvenmad✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.
I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.
Councillor,
For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.
The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.
Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.
I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.
Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.
I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.
Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.
I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.
Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.
I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.
Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.
As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.
Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.
No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.
Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.
ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.
If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.
ok ...but:
1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,
By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.
You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG
Yeah, that specific excerpt isn't particularly relevant to... well, much of anything going on right now.
A company can't sidestep gambling regulations by simply renaming things, however, as I've said before, they have taken other steps to slip through actual loopholes the law leaves open. Whether this is malicious, or simply because they're emulating behavior they've seen from other developers, I don't know.
Yes I agree, my point was more about people mentioning law and legalities and this was to show NOTHING is ever yours, NEVER was and NEVER is going to be, no matter how much money you spend on Crowns, once you buy Crowns your Money is gone and you already have NOTHING for it, what ever you do from then on with your Crowns is irrelevant, they are not really yours and what you exchange them for will not be either.
Back on topic, these RNG boxes are just another way, although personally I think a very scummy way, of making you part with even more money for nothing.
To be fair, the "nothing" is yours bit might be a bit of contract fiction. I can't remember seeing it coherently tested. Closest I can think of are some idiots who sued over getting banned. But, that was just a, "well, you broke the terms of the contract," situation. That said, it's not really something I looked into in detail.
Outside of the US, theft of an digital items has lead to a few cases, though I don't remember the details. None of those involved actions by the company however. We're talking about things like stealing accounts, or hacking accounts and stealing items from them.
Yes I understand your comments and to be honest to sum it all up, the whole gaming industry and virtual goods is all in a very grey area with laws all over the world not only in the US and personally I think it has got out of hand some of the tactics some companies blatantly rob people out of money and get away with it.
Alot of laws have changed in the past 5 years alone concerning virtual goods and microtransactions, but the big problem is they are not being looked into a passed as quickly as they need to be, some gaming companies change there tactics quicker than the laws can keep up with them and at the end of teh day it is all wrong, both morally and ethically but that's how it is.
You know that old *** line? "Write your congressman?" Yeah. A lot of the lack of movement on this subject actually comes from inaction on our part. It's not that laws can't keep up, it's that nobody is pushing for them to change. There are a lot of voters who are affected by this, and the money these companies pull in is far to little to start spending serious cash to lobbying contacts. We're not dealing with major legacy players here. If you want to stop this, you've got some fantastic, "think of the children," or, "illegal gambling," approaches that could actually work.
I know, we have the whole, "write your congressman," thing written off as ineffectual and a gag. Like the "please take a number" attached to a grenade pin gag. But, it is a real option.
the other thing is the 'catch 22 situation' which is in the company's favor, you get people who are angry with something, they know they can do something BUT they love the game and want to continue to play it and they know if they speak out and are noticed they will have their account banned, so in reality they never win, seen that situation so many times in the past alsoEdited by elvenmad on August 23, 2016 8:15PM< PC - EU >0 -
Stiltz✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsThe more I think about it, I'm actually excited for these boxes because I don't really have anything to spend my eso+ crowns on.
The only things I've bought to date is a guar, a pet, and a merchant. I've got 7k crowns right now just sitting there, if boxes were available right now I'd probably buy 5 or 10 for the repair kits and consumables for alts mostly, but the chance to get something rare would at least make it kind of exciting.
I think a lot of us just have crowns sitting there from our subscription, I think ZOS knows this as well.
Most of us are sitting on crowns because we anticipate quality Crown Store content. We didn't buy Crowns hoping for a gambling outlet, we bought them so we could buy good cosmetic items. Instead of gambling boxes, they should just, you know, release more things that people will want to buy. Adding gambling boxes is completely incongruous with solving the "problem" of Crowns sitting around unused.
But those that have eso+ didn't buy any crowns. They come with the subscription and, for me at least, isn't a huge deciding factor in subscribing.
I still don't think it's gambling if they include useful items in the boxes. Whether they will be useful isn't known yet but hopefully ZOS is listening and will make them worth buying on their own just for the base content.Edited by Stiltz on August 23, 2016 8:16PM0 -
The_Undefined✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.To be completely honest, I was pretty against the extreme action of players unsubbing due to lockboxes. There's an entire game behind these lockboxes that has been here for 2 years, focus on that instead. However, I'm inclined to agree with those players now and here's why lockboxes affects that and SHOULD NOT BE ADDED or at the very least COMPROMISED for fairness to the players.
1. ZOS has broken my trust in them: Right, so what? It's a developing market, they have to adapt and change their tactics to keep a competitive edge. You're right, however it doesn't change the fact that they said they didn't plan to add these lockboxes a year ago. They changed their mind, and that unsettles me as a player. HOWEVER, I could keep playing if it were just this issue with the lockboxes. Plenty of developers have broken my trust and I have still played their games.
2. ZOS has shown they will not keep the players best interest in mind: They're a business, how could you expect a business to not keep profit over your best interest? Easily, they've set a track record, imo, of upholding this idea. Sure add the cash shop, but provide massive perks that are totally in favor of the player - ALL DLCs free with sub, crafting bag, 1500crowns with the purchase of sub - that's so completely fair to me. Not only am I provided appropriate items that my money would give me if I was interested in the crown store (1500crowns which is equivalent to 15$) but I'm also given what was promised - the game for my subscription. In all honesty this is more fair than games with sub that make you buy their DLCs! However, lootboxes do not follow this method, thus it is changed. 400crowns for a CHANCE at an item that is no longer available and consumables. You're FORCED to take the CHANCED items you don't like (should you choose to buy these), and these items have a LIMITED run in the loot boxes. That's so incredibly unfair. So what? You don't have to buy them. You're right, but now items that could have been put into the game will now be EXCLUSIVE to these lockboxes / lootboxes / whatever they're called. In either case, this practice is not fair to the players in any way, and ZOS has chosen this despite the fact there are multiple forms of streams of revenue (Buy the base game, subscription, pay for DLC, pay for Crowns).
3. ESO is in its prime of development: Other games either start off with this practice or tack it on. This game is COMPLETELY changing. One Tamriel, the standardization of vet dungeons, lootboxes. This state of unrest puts me at an incredible unease then you throw in the fact that lootboxes are being added. Lootboxes are an entire philosophy on the company's side. It's an ENTIRELY different business model. The fact is, the FUTURE IS UNCERTAIN with the massive changes going and now I'm unable to shake the feeling of what will happen next. That's not an enjoyable feeling to have when playing the game.
Sure, 1 of these things isn't enough to unsub, even 2 of these isn't worth unsubbing, but all 3? I'm giving it a few days to let all of this sink in. However, this is what lootboxes does. Agree with it or not. Label me the drama queen, that's fine. Still, the fact is this is a VERY real effect that's affecting players purely due to lootboxes. Seriously, this should be looked at further.Edited by The_Undefined on August 23, 2016 8:19PM13 -
ragespell✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.
No they can't. If all the people could control themselves, ZOS wouldn't even do these boxes.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »and another thing.....
if the mystery items in the loot boxes are otherwise on sale for the same or higher price than the loot box you are not gambling.
you are making a blind purchase...
I'd be totally ok with that. But they've already said some items are only available through the boxes
There's one thing I don't really understand (I'm addressing the "very-very-anti-loot-boxes here).
Gambling/lotteries are based on the system where you spend a little bit of money for a small chance to gain a large or very large amount of money. That's how the expenditure looks insignificant (and people don't realize how low the chance is, because pictures and happy stories of people who have won is thrown in their face all the time).
I can understand that the very large amount of money has a magnetic impact on people and drives them to buy another and another ticket...
But... an exclusive mount ? Is this THAT important ? Is it THAT fascinating that people would buy boxes over and over for that incredible expectation to get an exclusive mount ? Even the most obsessed completionist can live with a missing mount in his collection, can't he ... ???
If you had 1 in 1000 or worse to win the prize you desire, that has no real value outside your small community, would you still spend 4€ for 1 chance?
Ok, there are many many many people out there who can't make this simple reasoning.
The big problem I see about these gambling boxes, is that ZOS want to sell at hundreds of euros what usually you can buy with much much less, in a way that many people don't even understand (not many people understand statistics)
Sorry for my bad english
Edited by ragespell on August 23, 2016 8:15PM9 -
nimander99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.nimander99 wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -
First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.
In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.
This is absolutely hilarious! All this rage and hysteria over ugly costumes and goofy mounts.
Cracking me up!
Ok, I'll explain it from my perspective. I'm a collector of costumes, mounts, pets, styles, and all the other stuff that falls under the collections tab. I've spent countless hours in game earning these items. I've also bought every single mount, pet and costume that has been offered in the CS to complete my collection.
Now there will be cosmetics solely exclusive too the RNG Box. Which means for me to collect these said exclusive items I could potentially have to spend thousands of dollars to get even one...
Up to this point Zenimax has displayed a fair exchange and service, that is good business. Now they are saying, in essence, **** your business and money, we want you to gamble for our very special cosmetics.
Again, you may not care, you may think this is goofy, that I am goofy for enjoying collecting these things. But now Zenimax is encouraging one of the most base impulses in humanity. Gambling. Gambling has been proven to light up the same pleasure centers of the brain that Heroine does...
The dude is just trolling, don't give him the time of day. I mean, he even voted for the "I want p2w items in the lockboxes". Best not to engage with it.
Bah! I didn't catch that, thanks for the heads up. Don't cast pearls before swine an all that
I AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
"Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
"moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
"MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
"MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
"MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
"MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
"MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
"MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
"MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
"MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???
Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP4502 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.SilentRaven1972 wrote: »wayfarerx Gina also said: Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -
First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.
In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.
But what are the odds that the "item of my choice" is not in the choice selection? Lets say someone gets a Nightmare mount, but wanted the Ice Horse...they already own the Nightmare. Will the selection the person really wanted be available? or is it limited? I still think it's all a bad idea and will open a can of maggots that will rot the game. It makes me very sad.
@SilentRaven1972
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3280623/#Comment_3280623ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
It'll automatically be added if you don't already own it.ZOS_GinaBruno What if I get something I really DON'T like but I don't have it in my collection? Would I have the possibility to exchange it for gems, or it added to your collection automatically?
There will be a separate section in the Crown Store where you can spend your Crown Gems, which will contain a special selection of items - it won't include every item from the Crown Store. Items will also be rotated occasionally so it won't be the same things all the time.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -
First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.
In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.
Does this mean there will be a separate store for merchandise ONLY available in the Crown Crates with Crown Gems as the currency instead of regular ole Crown's? For example, if I get enough duplicates where I have around 3k Crown Gems, do I open up a separate store with nothing but the items in the Crown Crates, find the Ultra Rare Mount I've been trying to get but haven't gotten, and buy it right there with all the Crown Gems I've assembled from selling back my duplicates?
I bolded the part that I believe answers your question. Unfortunately alot of information about this all is still very clouded. We do not know how big of a selection the crown gem store will be, how often it's rotated etc.Edited by MissBizz on August 23, 2016 8:22PMLone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.
I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.
Councillor,
For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.
The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.
Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.
I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.
Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.
I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.
Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.
I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.
Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.
I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.
Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.
As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.
Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.
No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.
Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.
ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.
If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.
ok ...but:
1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,
By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.
You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG
Yeah, that specific excerpt isn't particularly relevant to... well, much of anything going on right now.
A company can't sidestep gambling regulations by simply renaming things, however, as I've said before, they have taken other steps to slip through actual loopholes the law leaves open. Whether this is malicious, or simply because they're emulating behavior they've seen from other developers, I don't know.
Yes I agree, my point was more about people mentioning law and legalities and this was to show NOTHING is ever yours, NEVER was and NEVER is going to be, no matter how much money you spend on Crowns, once you buy Crowns your Money is gone and you already have NOTHING for it, what ever you do from then on with your Crowns is irrelevant, they are not really yours and what you exchange them for will not be either.
Back on topic, these RNG boxes are just another way, although personally I think a very scummy way, of making you part with even more money for nothing.
To be fair, the "nothing" is yours bit might be a bit of contract fiction. I can't remember seeing it coherently tested. Closest I can think of are some idiots who sued over getting banned. But, that was just a, "well, you broke the terms of the contract," situation. That said, it's not really something I looked into in detail.
Outside of the US, theft of an digital items has lead to a few cases, though I don't remember the details. None of those involved actions by the company however. We're talking about things like stealing accounts, or hacking accounts and stealing items from them.
Yes I understand your comments and to be honest to sum it all up, the whole gaming industry and virtual goods is all in a very grey area with laws all over the world not only in the US and personally I think it has got out of hand some of the tactics some companies blatantly rob people out of money and get away with it.
Alot of laws have changed in the past 5 years alone concerning virtual goods and microtransactions, but the big problem is they are not being looked into a passed as quickly as they need to be, some gaming companies change there tactics quicker than the laws can keep up with them and at the end of teh day it is all wrong, both morally and ethically but that's how it is.
You know that old *** line? "Write your congressman?" Yeah. A lot of the lack of movement on this subject actually comes from inaction on our part. It's not that laws can't keep up, it's that nobody is pushing for them to change. There are a lot of voters who are affected by this, and the money these companies pull in is far to little to start spending serious cash to lobbying contacts. We're not dealing with major legacy players here. If you want to stop this, you've got some fantastic, "think of the children," or, "illegal gambling," approaches that could actually work.
I know, we have the whole, "write your congressman," thing written off as ineffectual and a gag. Like the "please take a number" attached to a grenade pin gag. But, it is a real option.
the other thing is the 'catch 22 situation' which is in the company's favor, you get people who are angry with something, they know they can do something BUT they love the game and want to continue to play it and they know if they speak out and are noticed they will have their account banned, so in reality they never win, seen that situation so many times in the past also
A company that started banning players for that would come under far more scrutiny.1 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsI must admit that I only scrolled through the last 10 pages or so, because it already took me a very long time to read all the posts in this thread - and the kinder eggs just caught my eye.
But I think you are referring to this:jedtb16_ESO wrote: »good grief....
Hand_Bacons comment was related to the fact that some posters were getting carried away with the idea that the random box may contain nothing. he pointed out that they would in fact contain something. i then made the analogy with kinder eggs.
i.e. you are not buying a chance at something. you are buying something. there will be something in the box, or egg.... you just don't know what it is. it is a blind purchase. are you managing to keep up so far?
you are being sold something. it is not an empty box, or egg for that matter. you just don't know what is in the box, or the egg.. clear so far?
so to summarize.....
my comment made no mention of the contents of the box or the egg. it was about the fact, yes the fact, that there would be something rather than nothing in the box, or egg.
to be honest i could not give a flying *************** what is in either the box
or the egg.
now that is cleared up could we move on to something completely different?
or even interesting?
If yes, I am indeed not referring particularly to your "analogy" - I was comparing those two things in general. I know that you are buying "something" - crown boxes or kinder eggs - you are not buying a box of nothing. I didn't say that and I didn't mean that. That's where you get me wrong.
I was referring to the "super special items" that can be found in theses boxes/eggs and how far people are willing to go to get these items. In this context, boxes and eggs are alike.
in that case please accept my apology i thought you had misconstrued my analogy in the same manner that some others had.0 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »It really bothers me to see 'Exclusive Mounts' (or exclusive anything) hidden behind a real world cash wall. It certainly puts players with a low-or-no budget at a severe disadvantage. People with deep pockets will be more than happy to drop their cash on this gamble so they can rub their fancy mount in the faces of those less fortunate. It's simply not fair.
I have a large amount of disposable income and am actually furious with this monetization strategy. I don't want to rub money in people's faces, I want people to be able to make their own determination about if the price of a good is consistent with what they're willing to pay for it. I'M not even able to make that determination if things are used to incentivize the gambling boxes, though, because there is no guarantee I'll ever get the thing I want, regardless of how much I spend on it. It's a total trap unless what they'r really selling is the "entertainment value" of gambling, and if all they're really selling is the "entertainment value" of gambling, then they are downright in the wrong business. Nobody came to ESO wanting to gamble, that has flat out NEVER been the draw of the game.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster12 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Would people rather buy a wild hunt mount at 20$ or for an unknown price. Let's be honest, no one cares about anything other then the cosmetics. People will buy tons of these for a slight chance and that is why these work. If you support these tactics then soon every game is going to include them.
Is this what people really want?
3 -
The_Undefined✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »It really bothers me to see 'Exclusive Mounts' (or exclusive anything) hidden behind a real world cash wall. It certainly puts players with a low-or-no budget at a severe disadvantage. People with deep pockets will be more than happy to drop their cash on this gamble so they can rub their fancy mount in the faces of those less fortunate. It's simply not fair.
I have a large amount of disposable income and am actually furious with this monetization strategy. I don't want to rub money in people's faces, I want people to be able to make their own determination about if the price of a good is consistent with what they're willing to pay for it. I'M not even able to make that determination if things are used to incentivize the gambling boxes, though, because there is no guarantee I'll ever get the thing I want, regardless of how much I spend on it. It's a total trap unless what they'r really selling is the "entertainment value" of gambling, and if all they're really selling is the "entertainment value" of gambling, then they are downright in the wrong business. Nobody came to ESO wanting to gamble, that has flat out NEVER been the draw of the game.
Thanks for this post, I really find it constructive! I often see these unfair cashgrab systems directed towards players with deep pockets. I never think to consider how those players would feel, b/c who cares they have the money. Not only that, but players typically rub it in on the forums when they do have deep pockets. However, what you said is totally right. First of all, players with deep pockets aren't stupid, and I would make the argument that players with deep pockets aren't even the ones mostly affected by this system. Players with addiction problems are affected. It doesn't matter how much money you make, everyone is capable of making an informed decision and choose not to buy these. The only players that can't are those that are addicted to gambling.
Straight up, this was not a gambling game and when these items are featured, it will be. It may be cosmetic, but it changes the focus of the game. People keep saying profits are king your happiness isn't what's important just strengthens the argument that this will affect the entire game. Developers will be more concerned about making items for these lootboxes for profit instead of good content in the game for player enjoyment.5 -
clayandaudrey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.When cheating was the thing a certain crowd didn't want to support the efforts to get ZoS to do anything. "I only pve" or "it doesn't affect me so who cares" posts were everywhere.
But now the same crowd of apathy to that want to tear the house down over lockboxes. I don't want them either but seriously get over yourselves. This is coming. There is nothing you can do about it. Don't give them any money.
And next time an issue pops up that a certain crowd is against hop on board instead of not giving a crap. That way you may effect a change and when your next issue pops up you may have even more support.
Buy this is not a fight you are going to win. It is a done deal as far as ZOS is concerned.Edited by clayandaudrey_ESO on August 23, 2016 8:29PM3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.The_Undefined wrote: »To be completely honest, I was pretty against the extreme action of players unsubbing due to lockboxes. There's an entire game behind these lockboxes that has been here for 2 years, focus on that instead. However, I'm inclined to agree with those players now and here's why lockboxes affects that and SHOULD NOT BE ADDED or at the very least COMPROMISED for fairness to the players.
1. ZOS has broken my trust in them: Right, so what? It's a developing market, they have to adapt and change their tactics to keep a competitive edge. You're right, however it doesn't change the fact that they said they didn't plan to add these lockboxes a year ago. They changed their mind, and that unsettles me as a player. HOWEVER, I could keep playing if it were just this issue with the lockboxes. Plenty of developers have broken my trust and I have still played their games.
2. ZOS has shown they will not keep the players best interest in mind: They're a business, how could you expect a business to not keep profit over your best interest? Easily, they've set a track record, imo, of upholding this idea. Sure add the cash shop, but provide massive perks that are totally in favor of the player - ALL DLCs free with sub, crafting bag, 1500crowns with the purchase of sub - that's so completely fair to me. Not only am I provided appropriate items that my money would give me if I was interested in the crown store (1500crowns which is equivalent to 15$) but I'm also given what was promised - the game for my subscription. In all honesty this is more fair than games with sub that make you buy their DLCs! However, lootboxes do not follow this method, thus it is changed. 400crowns for a CHANCE at an item that is no longer available and consumables. You're FORCED to take the CHANCED items you don't like (should you choose to buy these), and these items have a LIMITED run in the loot boxes. That's so incredibly unfair. So what? You don't have to buy them. You're right, but now items that could have been put into the game will now be EXCLUSIVE to these lockboxes / lootboxes / whatever they're called. In either case, this practice is not fair to the players in any way, and ZOS has chosen this despite the fact there are multiple forms of streams of revenue (Buy the base game, subscription, pay for DLC, pay for Crowns).
3. ESO is in its prime of development: Other games either start off with this practice or tack it on. This game is COMPLETELY changing. One Tamriel, the standardization of vet dungeons, lootboxes. This state of unrest puts me at an incredible unease then you throw in the fact that lootboxes are being added. Lootboxes are an entire philosophy on the company's side. It's an ENTIRELY different business model. The fact is, the FUTURE IS UNCERTAIN with the massive changes going and now I'm unable to shake the feeling of what will happen next. That's not an enjoyable feeling to have when playing the game.
Sure, 1 of these things isn't enough to unsub, even 2 of these isn't worth unsubbing, but all 3? I'm giving it a few days to let all of this sink in. However, this is what lootboxes does. Agree with it or not. Label me the drama queen, that's fine. Still, the fact is this is a VERY real effect that's affecting players purely due to lootboxes. Seriously, this should be looked at further.
It's probably worth pointing out, for a lot of us, this isn't our first exposure to this business model. We've seen this exact behavior, with these promises from other developers in the past. At that point, the knee jerk reaction becomes a lot more understandable.
I mean, when I say things like, "these things will slow the development of the game, and will mean we'll get less new content, and what comes will be of lower quality," or that "bug fixes will actually become less frequent," it may sound like I'm just being hysterical. But, no, I've actually watched the consequences of this business model across multiple games in the past, and these behaviors have been predictable consequences.
When I say these choke off communities, it sounds demented. How can that happen? It happens when the developers stop making a game for everyone, and start making one for the 0.2% of their community that are blowing insane amounts of money on these boxes and accounting for over half the game's take. At that point, that handful become far more important than your input or mine. Again, I've watched this happen before. "Game breaking bugs that mean you can't advance through the story? Yeah, that's not a problem. But a glitch with the bags? Yeah, we need to hotfix that right now!"
It's just really unfortunate, because I did love this game.10 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.The more I think about it, I'm actually excited for these boxes because I don't really have anything to spend my eso+ crowns on.
The only things I've bought to date is a guar, a pet, and a merchant. I've got 7k crowns right now just sitting there, if boxes were available right now I'd probably buy 5 or 10 for the repair kits and consumables for alts mostly, but the chance to get something rare would at least make it kind of exciting.
I think a lot of us just have crowns sitting there from our subscription, I think ZOS knows this as well.
Most of us are sitting on crowns because we anticipate quality Crown Store content. We didn't buy Crowns hoping for a gambling outlet, we bought them so we could buy good cosmetic items. Instead of gambling boxes, they should just, you know, release more things that people will want to buy. Adding gambling boxes is completely incongruous with solving the "problem" of Crowns sitting around unused.
But those that have eso+ didn't buy any crowns. They come with the subscription and, for me at least, isn't a huge deciding factor in subscribing.
I still don't think it's gambling if they include useful items in the boxes. Whether they will be useful isn't known yet but hopefully ZOS is listening and will make them worth buying on their own just for the base content.
@Stiltz You don't seem to understand, paying for ESO+ IS buying Crowns, there's no two ways about it. The subscription comes with Crowns, it is a part of what you are buying. Further, many people with ESO+ are buying excess Crowns in addition to what comes with their subscription because they want more than what they can afford only with the subscription. Either way, people with ESO+ are absolutely buying crowns, and so are people who don't have ESO+.
The fact that it's gambling is also not up for debate except in a legal context. Even if they always come with "useful" items and only have a chance at a mount, pet, or costume, it's still a risk-based purchase. You don't know what consumable item you're getting, and if you DID just want a consumable, you'd have purchased it via the normal Crown Store. Unless you think there's a chance to get more of them if you buy the gambling box, in which case, guess what, that's a gamble! The chance for old mounts, the chance for exclusive mounts, the guaranteed consumable item, and even the Crown Gems for duplicate items are all merely bidder confidence-increasing strategies meant to entice higher bids on the gambling game!Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster3 -
The_Undefined✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »When cheating was the thing a certain crowd didn't want to support the efforts to get ZoS to do anything. "I only pve" or "it doesn't affect me so who cares" posts were everywhere.
But now the same crowd of apathy to that want to tear the house down over lockboxes. I don't want them either but seriously get over yourselves. This is coming. There is nothing you can do about it. Don't give them any money.
And next time an issue pops up that a certain crowd is against hop on board instead of not giving a crap. That way you may effect a change and when your next issue pops up you may have even more support.
Buy this is not a fight you are going to win. It is a done deal as far as ZOS is concerned.
First of all, I wasn't even here during those instances, so to blanket label everyone here attempting to stand up against this business practice is really unfair of you to do. Secondly, I agree with you. It is a done deal, but to sit around and not say anything is subscribing to the very thing it seems your post is against. Showing apathy just b/c it's a done deal is accepting and supporting the practice. It is not implemented. It will be FAR more difficult to change this after it is implemented than now. Sure it may come, but at the very least they could change the way it works so it is more fair for us, and us speaking out and showing our disagreement definitely is what supports that change.3 -
JahneeO✭✭✭Holy Good God people.
I have never seen such outrage over something sold in a game. All this talk about business models and this game did this and then that happened, and what about those with gambling problems, what should we do?
It's. A. Game.
A good game. And one, need I remind you, that you can play for as long as you would like without ever entering the crown store.
Think rationally for a second, does a recovering alcoholic not go into a supermarket because they have a beer aisle?
No.
They still shop there because 85% of the store is food. Food is good.
If what ZoS is doing with their game is just something you can't take anymore? Do me a favor: Go take a walk, get outside and breathe some fresh air.
ESO is a game, your life is your life.
Life is good.3 -
VerboseQuips✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.33.6k views
1.6k responses
67% don't want/like it.
30% ok with it so long as cosmetic only (which we know it won't be)
Might want to rethink this one Zos.
Alas, this also means that 32k players among the 33.6k possibly haven't made up their mind about it, or don't care at all.
The players who are the more vehemently against these greedy practices are probably the ones who will feel compelled to fight against them for the salvation of TES, and come to the forum, explaining in a lapidary or detailed way why it is, in their opinion, a very bad move.
The worst thing with this new business model is that it will possibly succeed in
1. making quick money
2. drag TESO in the murky swamps of mobile junk-games practices,
3. compromise the future of the series by upsetting and severly disappointing the faithful and dedicated fanbaseVerboseQuips wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Some good ideas being posted now to deal with this . The limited time exclusive to lockbox then crown store later deal is better then nothing . The idea of keeping exclusive items out of RNG boxes is best idea if we have to have these . Hope ZOS_MattFiror ZOS_GinaBruno and ZOS_JessicaFolsom are reading those posts from MAdkat124b14_ESO and others like MissBizz put in her good video .
Yeah I think putting items up for sale after a chance of them in the grab bag wouldn't be too bad. That was people can still choose to buy an item and make an informed decision on what exactly they are purchasing. Link to my video if anyone was wondering.
Thank you for this video, it is awesome. You could really well put words on the feelings I too share about this (and I think those feelings are shared by many people in the fanbase). I don't mind people having cheap access to what I paid for - good for them. I do mind having only a random and unlikely access to things into which I am interested - this is unrespectful from Zenimax.
I realized, while typing the word 'access' in this post that I was on something important. That is, something important for me, but I think many people would not consider it so important for themselves. Yet some other people might relate to this feeling so I will try to express it clearly - and most probably will fail.
There is a reason why I always buy all the DLCs for the games I love, and it is not only because I find them fun, it is also because I consider that the fictional universes they describe do 'exist' somewhere outside of the physical space occupied by the computers which run them or the books which talk about them. Where the fictional beings thrive, I don't know. Call it Meinong's Jungle if you want.
I must say, at this point, that I have no education in philosophy, I just read very little on such topics, but that little resonnated in me somehow. This also means I am in no position to talk seriously about the ontology of fictionnal beings. I haven't thoroughly thought about such questions to build myself a firm mental ground, I am just trying to describe a vague stance and an attitude I generally adopt towards fictional stuff.
Anyways, behaving as if those fictional universes did have some form of existence exterior and independant of their physical location allows me to consider that two different games refer to the same universe.
In this mind frame, the games and books become epistemological accesses to this universe. Or, if you prefer it rephrased, I cannot go in my garden and measure a guar's tail because the fictional universe does not exist within our physical realm, but I adopt the stance that a valid access to knowledge about this universe is conveyed through the games and book.
Now add to this the type of very curious and open-minded personnality that likes to discover and gather new knowledge. In this context, buying all the DLCs is the only way to obtain the broadest and most unhindered access to the universe I want to know about.
This is also, I think, a reason why I bought all the Crown collectibles: to have a full game, which means the fullest epistemological access to Tamriel currently possible.
This is also why I don't mind not having some of the pets available in-game: if I really wanted to play the PvP thing, I could probably get that Scamp. I still have an access to it.
And also, this is probably the reason I am so upset due to the RNG lootboxes. From now on, my game will not be complete anymore. There are things I will not have access to.
(Please don't send me to Sheogorath after I wrote this)
And finally, I will quote myself once again, because I think that what I wrote in another thread is very relevant to this debate, and it is better to make everything available in one place:VerboseQuips wrote: »I did not participate in the poll because I don't intend to buy any lootbox. As I said in another topic, the day they put collectibles behind a RNG wall is the day I cease collecting them.
I like the way you phrased your question, though, because it allows to illustrate a notion that is very relevant to this awful gambling: the price of giving up.
You ask how far we were willing to go before giving up. An element of answer is that the further we go, the more expensive it gets to give up.
Let's say they make an awesome mount exclusive to the RNG system and you really want this mount.
If you buy one lootbox, but don't get it and you give up, well, you wasted 400 Crowns. Not a very big deal.
Now let's say you buy 10 lootboxes in hope that one of them would contain it (which will still, probably, remain unlikely), but you don't get your awesome mount. Well, you invested 4000 Crowns in vain - the equivalent of a Sar-m'Athra. Should you give up then? Giving up then would be accepting you wasted the 4000 Crowns for nothing, which is the equivalent of throwing 4000 Crowns into the garbage bin, while continuing would cost only 400 more Crowns, for a chance that the total of 4400 Crowns would not be wasted. At this point, giving up does cost ten times as much as continuing, on a psychological level.
And this is the goal of these lootboxes: getting the players - maybe not all, but due to low likelihood of success, most of them - to the point where the psychological cost of giving up outweighs the actual cost of continuing. This is an infinite money sink, which is addictive by design, intrinsically dishonnest and predatory.
I will not condone that as a fan of Elder Scrolls. TES fans deserve better than that, and TES can, and should, do better.Edited by VerboseQuips on August 23, 2016 8:44PMMy characters:Main and crafter: A Breton magicka templar named Erwann Sorril
Alt 1: A Bosmer sorcerer named Tuuneleg
Alt 2: An Imperial dragonknight named Gaius Tullius Hastifer
Alt 3: An Argonian vampire/nightblade named Observe-le-Xanmeer
Alt 4: A Nord werewolf/dragonknight named Sigurd Hurlevent
Alt 5: A Breton sorcerer named Gilian Sorril (he's Erwann's younger brother)
Alt 6: A Khajiit nightblade named Jolan-dar
Alt 7: A Nord warden named Sigurmar Hurlevent (he's Sigurd's younger brother)
Alt 8: An Altmer templar named Oioriel
Alt 9: An Argonian stamina Warden named Danse-avec-les-Rainettes
Alt 10: A Redguard templar named Neemokh af-Corelanya
Alt 11: A Nord stamina sorcerer named Olga Écoute-Vent
Alt 12: A Breton magicka Warden named Ian Sorril
Alt 13: A Dunmer magicka necromancer named Ilmoran Dren
Alt 14: An Orc stamina necromancer named Norgol gro-Borziel
Alt 15: A Nord magicka necromancer named Thorgen Givresang
Alt 16: An Imperial magicka dragonknight named Publius Valeirus Hastifer (Just call him "Valerio" - he's Gaius younger troublemaker of a brother)
Main in NA (For collaborative events): A Breton magicka nightblade named Titouan Sorril (long-lost brother of Erwann and Gilian)8 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Toward the end of November, we'll be giving you a chance to receive some very special items with the introduction of Crown Crates. These Crates, available in the Crown Store for just 400 crowns, will contain a randomized selection of useful consumables, and offer a chance to obtain rare and unique cosmetic items or mounts, including some previously-retired mounts, costumes, pets, and limited-time offers that are no longer available in the Crown Store. Crates will have different themes throughout the year, giving you the chance to obtain new, extremely rare items.
In the event you receive a mount, pet, costume or personality that you already own, you'll be awarded special Crown Gems in its place. These Gems can be used to purchase other collectible items from the current Crown Crate season that you'd prefer to have instead.
Info about crown crates from the official ESO article found hereLone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord2 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.the other thing is the 'catch 22 situation' which is in the company's favor, you get people who are angry with something, they know they can do something BUT they love the game and want to continue to play it and they know if they speak out and are noticed they will have their account banned, so in reality they never win, seen that situation so many times in the past also
Proof ??
That's pure slander. ZOS never banned anyone for expressing negative opinions about the game, or the company. You're all getting completely paranoid.
2 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Holy Good God people.
I have never seen such outrage over something sold in a game. All this talk about business models and this game did this and then that happened, and what about those with gambling problems, what should we do?
It's. A. Game.
A good game. And one, need I remind you, that you can play for as long as you would like without ever entering the crown store.
Think rationally for a second, does a recovering alcoholic not go into a supermarket because they have a beer aisle?
No.
They still shop there because 85% of the store is food. Food is good.
If what ZoS is doing with their game is just something you can't take anymore? Do me a favor: Go take a walk, get outside and breathe some fresh air.
ESO is a game, your life is your life.
Life is good.
This outside you speak of , does it have crown store Senche Mount ? I don't like walking . Takes too long to finish Grocery Questline .7 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.The more I think about it, I'm actually excited for these boxes because I don't really have anything to spend my eso+ crowns on.
The only things I've bought to date is a guar, a pet, and a merchant. I've got 7k crowns right now just sitting there, if boxes were available right now I'd probably buy 5-10 for the repair kits and consumables for alts mostly, but the chance to get something rare would at least make it kind of exciting.
I think a lot of us just have crowns sitting there from our subscription, I think ZOS knows this as well.
Of course they know it, and they want you to spend them now, so that you have none left when housing is coming out and you will have to buy new crowns to get a home.4 -
Chalinal✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Adding the Crown Store RNG box is a tremendous slap in the face. I have been playing (and subscribed) to ESO since launch day. I have collected every mount and pet the Crown Store has had to offer, limited time mounts and pets included. A lot of time and money has gone into making sure that I was always aware of these limited time offers and able to make the purchases. I wanted to collect all of the LIMITED TIME mounts and pets because they would only be offered for a LIMITED TIME, and it is cool to have something that others do not have and can no longer get. It shows loyalty to the game and being around when those items were made available, for a limited time only.
These soon-to-be-added Crown Store RNG boxes are a slap in the face to players like me that have collected and continue to collect all of these LIMITED TIME mounts and pets. Making the limited time mounts and pets available once again, to players that missed it, or were not even playing the game when they came out, is an insult.
To add insult to injury, there will also be "very rare" mounts and pets that are ONLY obtainable through these Crown Store RNG boxes. So people like me that paid for and collected all the limited time mounts and pets must buy these Crown Store RNG boxes to unlock the "very rare" Crown Store RNG box-locked only mounts and pets. This is completely unfair to collectors and is a predatory source of revenue.
It was also mentioned at the ESO Tavern event that these Crown Store RNG boxes would be a "low crown cost." As enticing as this will sound to all those already drooling over the addition of these to the Crown Store, think about the additional insult added here. The LIMITED TIME ONLY mounts and pets were available, for a limited time only, at a high crown cost, because that was supposed to be the only time they were available, so you have to pay that high price if you wanted that LIMITED TIME mount or pet. So, now you are telling me that not only will these limited time mounts and pets not actually be limited time, but they will also be cheaper to obtain via the Crown Store RNG box than they were when I bought them, for a limited time only? Yes, I understand that it might take you more than one box to get the mount or pet that you are aiming for, but either way, the one you get will still have cost less than it originally did, when it was only for a limited time.
The Crown Gem system is a weak solution to the bigger problem, and an attempt to lessen the outrage that the Crown Store RNG boxes bring. The bigger problem being: Collectors do not want the Crown Store RNG box to ever be implemented. What if the only thing I want out of the Crown Store RNG box are the "very rare" Crown Store RNG box-locked only mounts and pets (because I have all the other "limited time" mounts and pets already)? So I will be spending a TON of real money to buy crowns to try my luck at getting these "very rare" Crown Store RNG box-locked only mounts and pets, only to be getting Crown Gems. These new "very rare" Crown Store box-locked only mounts and pets are likely to be "too rare" to be made available for direct purchase through Crown Gems. So I will just be throwing money at the Crown Store RNG box, and collecting thousands of useless Crown Gems and losing real money. This gamble is unfair and cruel to collectors.
I understand that they might also contain costumes (which I do not care to collect, as there are far too many). So will I instead be buying the Crown Store RNG boxes, trying to get the new Crown Store RNG box-locked only mounts and pets, and getting tons of costumes that I do not want?
The Crown Store RNG box is something that I do not want to ever see in the Crown Store and in-game, I am sure that there are thousands of others that would agree. From what the poll has shown, there are many that do not want this implemented.Edited by Chalinal on August 23, 2016 9:19PM- @Chalinal
- PC - NA
- Guildmaster of <Tamriel Emporium> crafting guild
- J'Kharj - magicka Nightblade
- Master Crafter in all professions with 9 traits and all styles
- Furniture Crafting: Only missing a couple recipes
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jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsToward the end of November, we'll be giving you a chance to receive some very special items with the introduction of Crown Crates. These Crates, available in the Crown Store for just 400 crowns, will contain a randomized selection of useful consumables, and offer a chance to obtain rare and unique cosmetic items or mounts, including some previously-retired mounts, costumes, pets, and limited-time offers that are no longer available in the Crown Store. Crates will have different themes throughout the year, giving you the chance to obtain new, extremely rare items.
In the event you receive a mount, pet, costume or personality that you already own, you'll be awarded special Crown Gems in its place. These Gems can be used to purchase other collectible items from the current Crown Crate season that you'd prefer to have instead.
Info about crown crates from the official ESO article found here
thanks for that.
read it twice.... like everything i saw there.2 -
clayandaudrey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.The_Undefined wrote: »clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »When cheating was the thing a certain crowd didn't want to support the efforts to get ZoS to do anything. "I only pve" or "it doesn't affect me so who cares" posts were everywhere.
But now the same crowd of apathy to that want to tear the house down over lockboxes. I don't want them either but seriously get over yourselves. This is coming. There is nothing you can do about it. Don't give them any money.
And next time an issue pops up that a certain crowd is against hop on board instead of not giving a crap. That way you may effect a change and when your next issue pops up you may have even more support.
Buy this is not a fight you are going to win. It is a done deal as far as ZOS is concerned.
First of all, I wasn't even here during those instances, so to blanket label everyone here attempting to stand up against this business practice is really unfair of you to do. Secondly, I agree with you. It is a done deal, but to sit around and not say anything is subscribing to the very thing it seems your post is against. Showing apathy just b/c it's a done deal is accepting and supporting the practice. It is not implemented. It will be FAR more difficult to change this after it is implemented than now. Sure it may come, but at the very least they could change the way it works so it is more fair for us, and us speaking out and showing our disagreement definitely is what supports that change.
You mean the instance that is still stickied at the top of the forum? When did you start playing today?
Think you need to reread my posts plural in this thread. I am not being apathetic. But I find it infuriating that the same people who could have cared less for another serious problem still in this game are so he'll bent on getting this stopped.
This thread can be 100000 pages long and it is not going to stop it.
Edited by clayandaudrey_ESO on August 23, 2016 9:05PM0 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Holy Good God people.
I have never seen such outrage over something sold in a game. All this talk about business models and this game did this and then that happened, and what about those with gambling problems, what should we do?
It's. A. Game.
A good game. And one, need I remind you, that you can play for as long as you would like without ever entering the crown store.
Think rationally for a second, does a recovering alcoholic not go into a supermarket because they have a beer aisle?
No.
They still shop there because 85% of the store is food. Food is good.
If what ZoS is doing with their game is just something you can't take anymore? Do me a favor: Go take a walk, get outside and breathe some fresh air.
ESO is a game, your life is your life.
Life is good.
So you want all the people who care about the game to take a walk? That's exactly what I fear will happen.
My brother doesn't play mmo games, f2p or otherwise. He tried this one for a few months and was laughing at me when I told him about this. My dad even recognized the aim of these and he doesn't game at all. Wake up and realize the intent of this product. It doesn't belong in a game.
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elvenmad✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »the other thing is the 'catch 22 situation' which is in the company's favor, you get people who are angry with something, they know they can do something BUT they love the game and want to continue to play it and they know if they speak out and are noticed they will have their account banned, so in reality they never win, seen that situation so many times in the past also
Proof ??
That's pure slander. ZOS never banned anyone for expressing negative opinions about the game, or the company. You're all getting completely paranoid.
not in this game but in others I have, not been here very long to be honest, but have over 20 years experience with online games and gaming, including professionally for 6 years
They have the right to cease access to their service at any time and without reason.
14. TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT BY ZENIMAX
Subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), ZeniMax reserves the right to restrict, suspend or terminate these Terms of Service and Your Account as provided in these Terms of Service including without limitation restricting, suspending or terminating any licenses, and/or access to one or more of the Services.
In addition, ZeniMax reserves the right to restrict, suspend or terminate these Terms of Service and Your Account immediately and without notice to You if (i) You breach these Terms of Service, (ii) infringe or violate any third party rights, including without limitation third party intellectual rights, (iii) if ZeniMax is unable to verify or authenticate any information You provide to ZeniMax, or (iv) upon Your use of Services, for any other activity whatsoever that is, in ZeniMax's sole discretion, unlawful, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of these Terms of Service or a Service, including without limitation Your actions in a Game(s) or forums.
Edited by elvenmad on August 23, 2016 9:10PM< PC - EU >2 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.
@JahneeOHoly Good God people.
I have never seen such outrage over something sold in a game. All this talk about business models and this game did this and then that happened, and what about those with gambling problems, what should we do?
It's. A. Game.
A good game. And one, need I remind you, that you can play for as long as you would like without ever entering the crown store.
Think rationally for a second, does a recovering alcoholic not go into a supermarket because they have a beer aisle?
No.
They still shop there because 85% of the store is food. Food is good.
If what ZoS is doing with their game is just something you can't take anymore? Do me a favor: Go take a walk, get outside and breathe some fresh air.
ESO is a game, your life is your life.
Life is good.
Imagine the supermarket started only selling ramen and rice and everything else was just a chance drop from a gambling box. You'd be guaranteed to at least get some quantity of ramen and/or rice from the gambling box, but maybe you'd also get an apple, or maybe month-old sausages that you already rejected last time they were in the store! But mostly it's just ramen and rice from the gambling box, and not even as much as if you'd just bought the ramen and rice. And regardless of how much you spend on the gambling boxes, you know that someone is mathematically certain to only ever get ramen and rice out of it.
That's what we're dealing with here. We LIKE that ZOS is coming out with new things to buy, but the manner in which we can purchase them, or in this case gamble on them, is extremely important.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster3 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsThe more I think about it, I'm actually excited for these boxes because I don't really have anything to spend my eso+ crowns on.
The only things I've bought to date is a guar, a pet, and a merchant. I've got 7k crowns right now just sitting there, if boxes were available right now I'd probably buy 5-10 for the repair kits and consumables for alts mostly, but the chance to get something rare would at least make it kind of exciting.
I think a lot of us just have crowns sitting there from our subscription, I think ZOS knows this as well.
Of course they know it, and they want you to spend them now, so that you have none left when housing is coming out and you will have to buy new crowns to get a home.
and of course we are all so weak willed and par-blind that that is what we will do right?Edited by jedtb16_ESO on August 23, 2016 9:08PM0 -
ragespell✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Adding the Crown Store RNG box is a tremendous slap in the face. I have been playing (and subscribed) to ESO since launch day. I have collected every mount and pet the Crown Store has had to offer, limited time mounts and pets included. A lot of time and money has gone into making sure that I was always aware of these limited time offers and able to make the purchases. I wanted to collect all of the LIMITED TIME mounts and pets because they would only be offered for a LIMITED TIME, and it is cool to have something that others do not have and can no longer get. It shows loyalty to the game and being around when those items were made available, for a limited time only.
These soon-to-be-added Crown Store RNG boxes are a slap in the face to players like me that have collected and continue to collect all of these LIMITED TIME mounts and pets. Making the limited time mounts and pets available once again, to players that missed it, or were not even playing the game when they came out, is an insult.
To add insult to injury, there will also be "very rare" mounts and pets that are ONLY obtainable through these Crown Store RNG boxes. So people like me that paid for and collected all the limited time mounts and pets must buy these Crown Store RNG boxes to unlock the "very rare" Crown Store RNG box-locked only mounts and pets. This is completely unfair to collectors and is a predatory source of revenue.
It was also mentioned at the ESO Tavern event that these Crown Store RNG boxes would be a "low crown cost." As enticing as this will sound to all those already drooling over the addition of these to the Crown Store, think about the additional insult added here. The LIMITED TIME ONLY mounts and pets were available, for a limited time only, at a high crown cost, because that was supposed to be the only time they were available, so you have to pay that high price if you wanted that LIMITED TIME mount or pet. So, now you are telling me that not only will these limited time mounts and pets not actually be limited time, but they will also be cheaper to obtain via the Crown Store RNG box than they were when I bought them, for a limited time only? Yes, I understand that it might take you more than one box to get the mount or pet that you are aiming for, but either way, the one you get will still have cost less than it originally did, when it was only for a limited time.
Will there be some sort of way that your collections are scanned prior to opening the Crown Store RNG box so that you will not be getting mounts and pets that you already own (since I will have them all), or will I be paying for duplicates that are useless?
I understand that they might also contain costumes (which I do not care to collect, as there are far too many). So will I instead be buying the Crown Store RNG boxes, trying to get the new Crown Store RNG box-locked only mounts and pets, and getting tons of costumes that I do not want?
The Crown Store RNG box is something that I do not want to ever see in the Crown Store and in-game, I am sure that there are thousands of others that would agree. From what the poll has shown, there are many that do not want this implemented.
In bold there is exactly what ZOS want us to think: it will be cheap, even cheaper than buy directly.
maybe will be like that...but every game with lootboxes I have seen in these years have really tiny chance to win something worth.
You will end up, before you'll even realize you have paid 50€, with a bunch of overprized potions.
All this is about making people pay and pay hard for few pixel8 -
The_Undefined✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »The_Undefined wrote: »clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »When cheating was the thing a certain crowd didn't want to support the efforts to get ZoS to do anything. "I only pve" or "it doesn't affect me so who cares" posts were everywhere.
But now the same crowd of apathy to that want to tear the house down over lockboxes. I don't want them either but seriously get over yourselves. This is coming. There is nothing you can do about it. Don't give them any money.
And next time an issue pops up that a certain crowd is against hop on board instead of not giving a crap. That way you may effect a change and when your next issue pops up you may have even more support.
Buy this is not a fight you are going to win. It is a done deal as far as ZOS is concerned.
First of all, I wasn't even here during those instances, so to blanket label everyone here attempting to stand up against this business practice is really unfair of you to do. Secondly, I agree with you. It is a done deal, but to sit around and not say anything is subscribing to the very thing it seems your post is against. Showing apathy just b/c it's a done deal is accepting and supporting the practice. It is not implemented. It will be FAR more difficult to change this after it is implemented than now. Sure it may come, but at the very least they could change the way it works so it is more fair for us, and us speaking out and showing our disagreement definitely is what supports that change.
You mean the instance that is still stickied at the top of the forum? When did you start playing today?
Think you need to reread my posts plural in this thread. I am not being apathetic. But I find it infuriating that the same people who could have cared less for another serious problem still in this game are so he'll bent on getting this stopped.
This thread can be 100000 pages long and it is not going to stop it.
I started playing 2 months ago, and I very rarely ever come to the forums. In all honesty, I thought those stickies were just about past maintenance or something lol. I didn't even realize what they were about.
I didn't read all of your posts. I would be so incredibly upset too if I were in your shoes. I can't stand it when people take apathetic stances. I would rather someone strongly disagree with me than not care at all. When you stand for nothing you'll fall for anything.
Still, not everyone here deserves your anger. Also, like I said, it may not stop it, but our response could make a change to how it is conducted. Surely, ZOS anticipated a backlash. I'm sure they're of the mind that we'll settle down and just take it, but if we're able a forum to speak then we should use it. At this point, I'm not trying to support the complete shutdown in implementation. I'm fighting for this to be adjust for fairness. ZOS has shown a track record of fair dealings, at least for me, when it comes to monetization until these lootboxes came into play.1
This discussion has been closed.