What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

elvenmad · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.

I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.

Councillor,

For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.

The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.

Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.

I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.

Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.

I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.

Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.

I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.

Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.

I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.

Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.

As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.

Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.

No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.

Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.

ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.

If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.

ok ...but:

1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,

By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.

You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG

Elsonso · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Evergnar wrote: »

30% ok with it so long as cosmetic only (which we know it won't be)

Just to be clear, when I selected Yes, I had to correct the poll. I know it will also contain the convenience items, and that this is the standard contents of the crates. I do not think it will go beyond that.

MissBizz · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Mercutio wrote: »

This is a little off topic, but could I get a hamburger?

I totally just had a hamburger for lunch.

wayfarerx wrote: »

So at the start of this thread I said:

wayfarerx wrote: »

As long as they:
Only contain cosmetic stuff

Never contain exclusive items

Never contain the tiger mount

then I don't really care. I won't ever buy one but I won't begrudge anyone who wants to gamble for an old limited-time cosmetic.

Today I was chatting in this thread (now closed), defending the idea of lockboxes because I thought my comment above was still accurate. Then @MissBizz linked me this video where, at 8:30, Matt says that there will be exclusive mounts in the lockboxes.

So consider me fully on the lockbox-hate train. Gambling for exclusive stuff is bad, it makes me want to play this game less and detracts from the respect that I have for the developers.

@wayfarerx I'm glad that you received that notification and saw the video. As well there is some reddit posts from folks who were able to be at Gamescom and asked a few questions. Now there is no video evidence of this but I feel it's as trustworthy source for what we have right now. They did state the boxes could contain items from different editions (think - black cat from Japanese ESO) BUT they would not include the imperial edition items, and would not include any of the subscriber loyalty rewards. Just figured if I mentioned about things getting crossed off your list, at least you know some things on your list are still standing.

For reference to some folks, here's the links to a few Reddit posts that were made by an attendee.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4yml68/eso_tavern_update_12_infos_video/
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4yweyl/tavern_day_2_new_infos_crown_store_loot_boxes/

They also have videos of the announcements and whatnot at gamescom there. (which is what I linked Wayfarer) The video where these boxes are announced it the first video, about 7-8 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UcmPeXG7qQ
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4UcmPeXG7qQ&feature=youtu.be

Dominoid was also wonderful and has put any of Gina's statements about the boxes (I believe all from this thread) into one post with the questions and the answer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4ynwr7/say_no_to_gambling_boxes/d6ph6cn

nimander99 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

lordrichter wrote: »

Evergnar wrote: »

30% ok with it so long as cosmetic only (which we know it won't be)

Just to be clear, when I selected Yes, I had to correct the poll. I know it will also contain the convenience items, and that this is the standard contents of the crates. I do not think it will go beyond that.

There will also be "unique items only attainable via the box". Per Firor. So do you still vote yes knowing that there will be cosmetics only attainable via the lockbox?

Myrnhiel · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

nimander99 wrote: »

To sum up, of all the drama over the last couple years this is finally something that I see as a deal breaker. If this is implemented it would be a mistake of epic proportions. This game also has a direct effect on the rest of the Scrolls IP. It is a gem, a precious world with fans that have invested decades into the world that is Tamriel. The marketing team and the developers have this gem in their hands and they can and will destroy it with one word... Greed.

These are exactly my thoughts. The world of TES is wonderful and beautiful, full of loving attention to detail, with a magnificent, brilliantly thought-out lore - and with these boxes they are really starting to destroy it - bit by bit.

I am no friend of theses boxes - last year I played Neverwinter for a couple of months - and it did not take long for me to hate them. The difference to ESO is that in Neverwinter they are dropping everywhere, everytime and all around you. For now, ESO will "only" sell them in the Crown Store - but for how long? How long will it take them to realize that the income they are getting from theses boxes is not enough and they start to spread "incentives" to buy them throughout the game? In the beginning it will be easy to avoid them (you just don't open the Crown Store anymore) - but for how long? Perhaps they will add dropping keys in the game? For each key a special discount on the boxes - bronze, silver and gold keys... ???

I don't know much about MMOs - my experience is limited to Neverwinter (a very, very BAD experience!) and to ESO (which I really enjoyed playing until now) - but the things I read about theses boxes give me a very good idea of what is to be expected of this kind of thing. And I don't like it at all. This is a very cheesy way of making money. I won't got as far as to call it "preying" on people susceptible to gambling, but for me it is still a dishonest way of making money.

The problem is: as long as people buy these boxes, they will have no reason to abandon them. And the players WILL buy them - a lot of them. They did in other games and they will in ESO. And that's why this always works. And I'm pretty sure that ZOS were/are/will be consulting their lawyers about how this is legal in Germany or not - they won't take any chances.

From now on I will keep a VERY close eye on the development of this game - and I will keep my wallet closed. I did not care about the crafting bag or the costume dying (even though locking them behind ESO+ bars already hinted at the direction this was going) - but this is going way too far for my taste!

I really love the Bosmer created for this game - I love the story I invented for her, I love the memories of the adventures I had with her. But I will not shy from abandoning her, if this game continues going into the cash-grab-we-don't-care-about-our-players-direction. It will hurt, but I will abandon her (and no, you cannot have my stuff

)

One thing about why I think that the comparison to the Kinder Eggs (in Germany we call them "Ü-Eier"

) is not so far off: for children it is about the toys - for a lot of adults it is about the special figurines you have a chance of finding in the eggs. There are collections of figurines once in a while - and there are people who are buying a lot of these eggs in order to get a full set. The rare figurines of the older sets are selling for hundreds, if not sometimes thousands of Euros. For those people the normal toys are the "crap" (like the potions, scrolls etc. in the crown boxes) - they are after the figurines (like the special mounts, costumes etc.) and willing to pay high amounts for the eggs in order to get them - and going kind of weird ways: special ways of shaking the eggs in order to hear what's inside or weighing them. It is said (in the commercials) that you can find a figurine in "every 7th egg" ("In jedem siebten Ei") - but in reality there are special figurines that are very hard to get.

starkerealm · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.

I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.

Councillor,

For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.

The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.

Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.

I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.

Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.

I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.

Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.

I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.

Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.

I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.

Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.

As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.

Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.

No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.

Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.

ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.

If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.

ok ...but:

1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,

By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.

You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG

Yeah, that specific excerpt isn't particularly relevant to... well, much of anything going on right now.

A company can't sidestep gambling regulations by simply renaming things, however, as I've said before, they have taken other steps to slip through actual loopholes the law leaves open. Whether this is malicious, or simply because they're emulating behavior they've seen from other developers, I don't know.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Cazzy wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

and another thing.....

if the mystery items in the loot boxes are otherwise on sale for the same or higher price than the loot box you are not gambling.

you are making a blind purchase...

I'd be totally ok with that. But they've already said some items are only available through the boxes

so what?

provided an equivalent of said item is available at the same or higher price than the box it is still a blind purchase.

I mean no offense or disrespect but you're failing to see the issue a lot of us have. I don't think explaining any more than I have done so, nor you explaining to me, will change our minds. We will just have to agree to disagree

that is fair enough.

i hope you enjoy your new game

what is it by the way? i'm retired now so have plenty of time for games.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Myrnhiel wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

To sum up, of all the drama over the last couple years this is finally something that I see as a deal breaker. If this is implemented it would be a mistake of epic proportions. This game also has a direct effect on the rest of the Scrolls IP. It is a gem, a precious world with fans that have invested decades into the world that is Tamriel. The marketing team and the developers have this gem in their hands and they can and will destroy it with one word... Greed.

These are exactly my thoughts. The world of TES is wonderful and beautiful, full of loving attention to detail, with a magnificent, brilliantly thought-out lore - and with these boxes they are really starting to destroy it - bit by bit.

I am no friend of theses boxes - last year I played Neverwinter for a couple of months - and it did not take long for me to hate them. The difference to ESO is that in Neverwinter they are dropping everywhere, everytime and all around you. For now, ESO will "only" sell them in the Crown Store - but for how long? How long will it take them to realize that the income they are getting from theses boxes is not enough and they start to spread "incentives" to buy them throughout the game? In the beginning it will be easy to avoid them (you just don't open the Crown Store anymore) - but for how long? Perhaps they will add dropping keys in the game? For each key a special discount on the boxes - bronze, silver and gold keys... ???

I don't know much about MMOs - my experience is limited to Neverwinter (a very, very BAD experience!) and to ESO (which I really enjoyed playing until now) - but the things I read about theses boxes give me a very good idea of what is to be expected of this kind of thing. And I don't like it at all. This is a very cheesy way of making money. I won't got as far as to call it "preying" on people susceptible to gambling, but for me it is still a dishonest way of making money.

The problem is: as long as people buy these boxes, they will have no reason to abandon them. And the players WILL buy them - a lot of them. They did in other games and they will in ESO. And that's why this always works. And I'm pretty sure that ZOS were/are/will be consulting their lawyers about how this is legal in Germany or not - they won't take any chances.

From now on I will keep a VERY close eye on the development of this game - and I will keep my wallet closed. I did not care about the crafting bag or the costume dying (even though locking them behind ESO+ bars already hinted at the direction this was going) - but this is going way too far for my taste!

I really love the Bosmer created for this game - I love the story I invented for her, I love the memories of the adventures I had with her. But I will not shy from abandoning her, if this game continues going into the cash-grab-we-don't-care-about-our-players-direction. It will hurt, but I will abandon her (and no, you cannot have my stuff )

One thing about why I think that the comparison to the Kinder Eggs (in Germany we call them "Ü-Eier" ) is not so far off: for children it is about the toys - for a lot of adults it is about the special figurines you have a chance of finding in the eggs. There are collections of figurines once in a while - and there are people who are buying a lot of these eggs in order to get a full set. The rare figurines of the older sets are selling for hundreds, if not sometimes thousands of Euros. For those people the normal toys are the "crap" (like the potions, scrolls etc. in the crown boxes) - they are after the figurines (like the special mounts, costumes etc.) and willing to pay high amounts for the eggs in order to get them - and going kind of weird ways: special ways of shaking the eggs in order to hear what's inside or weighing them. It is said (in the commercials) that you can find a figurine in "every 7th egg" ("In jedem siebten Ei") - but in reality there are special figurines that are very hard to get.

oh good grief.... someone else misunderstood the kinder egg analogy.

starkerealm · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Myrnhiel wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

To sum up, of all the drama over the last couple years this is finally something that I see as a deal breaker. If this is implemented it would be a mistake of epic proportions. This game also has a direct effect on the rest of the Scrolls IP. It is a gem, a precious world with fans that have invested decades into the world that is Tamriel. The marketing team and the developers have this gem in their hands and they can and will destroy it with one word... Greed.

These are exactly my thoughts. The world of TES is wonderful and beautiful, full of loving attention to detail, with a magnificent, brilliantly thought-out lore - and with these boxes they are really starting to destroy it - bit by bit.

I am no friend of theses boxes - last year I played Neverwinter for a couple of months - and it did not take long for me to hate them. The difference to ESO is that in Neverwinter they are dropping everywhere, everytime and all around you. For now, ESO will "only" sell them in the Crown Store - but for how long? How long will it take them to realize that the income they are getting from theses boxes is not enough and they start to spread "incentives" to buy them throughout the game? In the beginning it will be easy to avoid them (you just don't open the Crown Store anymore) - but for how long? Perhaps they will add dropping keys in the game? For each key a special discount on the boxes - bronze, silver and gold keys... ???

"Fun" trivia: When Cryptic originally introduced lockboxes in Champions and Star Trek, they were, in fact, grab bags. They could drop very rarely in game, but primarily they were purchased. Then both games switched over to the current lockbox system.

starkerealm · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Myrnhiel wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

To sum up, of all the drama over the last couple years this is finally something that I see as a deal breaker. If this is implemented it would be a mistake of epic proportions. This game also has a direct effect on the rest of the Scrolls IP. It is a gem, a precious world with fans that have invested decades into the world that is Tamriel. The marketing team and the developers have this gem in their hands and they can and will destroy it with one word... Greed.

These are exactly my thoughts. The world of TES is wonderful and beautiful, full of loving attention to detail, with a magnificent, brilliantly thought-out lore - and with these boxes they are really starting to destroy it - bit by bit.

I am no friend of theses boxes - last year I played Neverwinter for a couple of months - and it did not take long for me to hate them. The difference to ESO is that in Neverwinter they are dropping everywhere, everytime and all around you. For now, ESO will "only" sell them in the Crown Store - but for how long? How long will it take them to realize that the income they are getting from theses boxes is not enough and they start to spread "incentives" to buy them throughout the game? In the beginning it will be easy to avoid them (you just don't open the Crown Store anymore) - but for how long? Perhaps they will add dropping keys in the game? For each key a special discount on the boxes - bronze, silver and gold keys... ???

I don't know much about MMOs - my experience is limited to Neverwinter (a very, very BAD experience!) and to ESO (which I really enjoyed playing until now) - but the things I read about theses boxes give me a very good idea of what is to be expected of this kind of thing. And I don't like it at all. This is a very cheesy way of making money. I won't got as far as to call it "preying" on people susceptible to gambling, but for me it is still a dishonest way of making money.

The problem is: as long as people buy these boxes, they will have no reason to abandon them. And the players WILL buy them - a lot of them. They did in other games and they will in ESO. And that's why this always works. And I'm pretty sure that ZOS were/are/will be consulting their lawyers about how this is legal in Germany or not - they won't take any chances.

From now on I will keep a VERY close eye on the development of this game - and I will keep my wallet closed. I did not care about the crafting bag or the costume dying (even though locking them behind ESO+ bars already hinted at the direction this was going) - but this is going way too far for my taste!

I really love the Bosmer created for this game - I love the story I invented for her, I love the memories of the adventures I had with her. But I will not shy from abandoning her, if this game continues going into the cash-grab-we-don't-care-about-our-players-direction. It will hurt, but I will abandon her (and no, you cannot have my stuff )

One thing about why I think that the comparison to the Kinder Eggs (in Germany we call them "Ü-Eier" ) is not so far off: for children it is about the toys - for a lot of adults it is about the special figurines you have a chance of finding in the eggs. There are collections of figurines once in a while - and there are people who are buying a lot of these eggs in order to get a full set. The rare figurines of the older sets are selling for hundreds, if not sometimes thousands of Euros. For those people the normal toys are the "crap" (like the potions, scrolls etc. in the crown boxes) - they are after the figurines (like the special mounts, costumes etc.) and willing to pay high amounts for the eggs in order to get them - and going kind of weird ways: special ways of shaking the eggs in order to hear what's inside or weighing them. It is said (in the commercials) that you can find a figurine in "every 7th egg" ("In jedem siebten Ei") - but in reality there are special figurines that are very hard to get.

oh good grief.... someone else misunderstood the kinder egg analogy.

No, I think he was actually bringing it up independently. I mean, it's a product, it's out there. There's a surprising number of Germans on the boards. Yeah, people know what the Kinder eggs are.

elvenmad · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.

I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.

Councillor,

For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.

The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.

Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.

I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.

Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.

I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.

Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.

I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.

Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.

I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.

Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.

As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.

Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.

No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.

Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.

ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.

If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.

ok ...but:

1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,

By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.

You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG

Yeah, that specific excerpt isn't particularly relevant to... well, much of anything going on right now.

A company can't sidestep gambling regulations by simply renaming things, however, as I've said before, they have taken other steps to slip through actual loopholes the law leaves open. Whether this is malicious, or simply because they're emulating behavior they've seen from other developers, I don't know.

Yes I agree, my point was more about people mentioning law and legalities and this was to show NOTHING is ever yours, NEVER was and NEVER is going to be, no matter how much money you spend on Crowns, once you buy Crowns your Money is gone and you already have NOTHING for it, what ever you do from then on with your Crowns is irrelevant, they are not really yours and what you exchange them for will not be either.

Back on topic, these RNG boxes are just another way, although personally I think a very scummy way, of making you part with even more money for nothing.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Myrnhiel wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

To sum up, of all the drama over the last couple years this is finally something that I see as a deal breaker. If this is implemented it would be a mistake of epic proportions. This game also has a direct effect on the rest of the Scrolls IP. It is a gem, a precious world with fans that have invested decades into the world that is Tamriel. The marketing team and the developers have this gem in their hands and they can and will destroy it with one word... Greed.

These are exactly my thoughts. The world of TES is wonderful and beautiful, full of loving attention to detail, with a magnificent, brilliantly thought-out lore - and with these boxes they are really starting to destroy it - bit by bit.

I am no friend of theses boxes - last year I played Neverwinter for a couple of months - and it did not take long for me to hate them. The difference to ESO is that in Neverwinter they are dropping everywhere, everytime and all around you. For now, ESO will "only" sell them in the Crown Store - but for how long? How long will it take them to realize that the income they are getting from theses boxes is not enough and they start to spread "incentives" to buy them throughout the game? In the beginning it will be easy to avoid them (you just don't open the Crown Store anymore) - but for how long? Perhaps they will add dropping keys in the game? For each key a special discount on the boxes - bronze, silver and gold keys... ???

I don't know much about MMOs - my experience is limited to Neverwinter (a very, very BAD experience!) and to ESO (which I really enjoyed playing until now) - but the things I read about theses boxes give me a very good idea of what is to be expected of this kind of thing. And I don't like it at all. This is a very cheesy way of making money. I won't got as far as to call it "preying" on people susceptible to gambling, but for me it is still a dishonest way of making money.

The problem is: as long as people buy these boxes, they will have no reason to abandon them. And the players WILL buy them - a lot of them. They did in other games and they will in ESO. And that's why this always works. And I'm pretty sure that ZOS were/are/will be consulting their lawyers about how this is legal in Germany or not - they won't take any chances.

From now on I will keep a VERY close eye on the development of this game - and I will keep my wallet closed. I did not care about the crafting bag or the costume dying (even though locking them behind ESO+ bars already hinted at the direction this was going) - but this is going way too far for my taste!

I really love the Bosmer created for this game - I love the story I invented for her, I love the memories of the adventures I had with her. But I will not shy from abandoning her, if this game continues going into the cash-grab-we-don't-care-about-our-players-direction. It will hurt, but I will abandon her (and no, you cannot have my stuff )

One thing about why I think that the comparison to the Kinder Eggs (in Germany we call them "Ü-Eier" ) is not so far off: for children it is about the toys - for a lot of adults it is about the special figurines you have a chance of finding in the eggs. There are collections of figurines once in a while - and there are people who are buying a lot of these eggs in order to get a full set. The rare figurines of the older sets are selling for hundreds, if not sometimes thousands of Euros. For those people the normal toys are the "crap" (like the potions, scrolls etc. in the crown boxes) - they are after the figurines (like the special mounts, costumes etc.) and willing to pay high amounts for the eggs in order to get them - and going kind of weird ways: special ways of shaking the eggs in order to hear what's inside or weighing them. It is said (in the commercials) that you can find a figurine in "every 7th egg" ("In jedem siebten Ei") - but in reality there are special figurines that are very hard to get.

oh good grief.... someone else misunderstood the kinder egg analogy.

No, I think he was actually bringing it up independently. I mean, it's a product, it's out there. There's a surprising number of Germans on the boards. Yeah, people know what the Kinder eggs are.

re-read the last paragraph 'One thing about why I think that the comparison to the Kinder Eggs (in Germany we call them "Ü-Eier"

) is not so far off'

and yeah the point of the analogy was missed...

starkerealm · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.

I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.

Councillor,

For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.

The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.

Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.

I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.

Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.

I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.

Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.

I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.

Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.

I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.

Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.

As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.

Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.

No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.

Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.

ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.

If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.

ok ...but:

1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,

By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.

You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG

Yeah, that specific excerpt isn't particularly relevant to... well, much of anything going on right now.

A company can't sidestep gambling regulations by simply renaming things, however, as I've said before, they have taken other steps to slip through actual loopholes the law leaves open. Whether this is malicious, or simply because they're emulating behavior they've seen from other developers, I don't know.

Yes I agree, my point was more about people mentioning law and legalities and this was to show NOTHING is ever yours, NEVER was and NEVER is going to be, no matter how much money you spend on Crowns, once you buy Crowns your Money is gone and you already have NOTHING for it, what ever you do from then on with your Crowns is irrelevant, they are not really yours and what you exchange them for will not be either.

Back on topic, these RNG boxes are just another way, although personally I think a very scummy way, of making you part with even more money for nothing.

To be fair, the "nothing" is yours bit might be a bit of contract fiction. I can't remember seeing it coherently tested. Closest I can think of are some idiots who sued over getting banned. But, that was just a, "well, you broke the terms of the contract," situation. That said, it's not really something I looked into in detail.

Outside of the US, theft of an digital items has lead to a few cases, though I don't remember the details. None of those involved actions by the company however. We're talking about things like stealing accounts, or hacking accounts and stealing items from them.

elvenmad · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.

I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.

Councillor,

For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.

The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.

Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.

I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.

Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.

I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.

Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.

I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.

Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.

I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.

Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.

As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.

Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.

No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.

Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.

ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.

If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.

ok ...but:

1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,

By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.

You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG

Yeah, that specific excerpt isn't particularly relevant to... well, much of anything going on right now.

A company can't sidestep gambling regulations by simply renaming things, however, as I've said before, they have taken other steps to slip through actual loopholes the law leaves open. Whether this is malicious, or simply because they're emulating behavior they've seen from other developers, I don't know.

Yes I agree, my point was more about people mentioning law and legalities and this was to show NOTHING is ever yours, NEVER was and NEVER is going to be, no matter how much money you spend on Crowns, once you buy Crowns your Money is gone and you already have NOTHING for it, what ever you do from then on with your Crowns is irrelevant, they are not really yours and what you exchange them for will not be either.

Back on topic, these RNG boxes are just another way, although personally I think a very scummy way, of making you part with even more money for nothing.

To be fair, the "nothing" is yours bit might be a bit of contract fiction. I can't remember seeing it coherently tested. Closest I can think of are some idiots who sued over getting banned. But, that was just a, "well, you broke the terms of the contract," situation. That said, it's not really something I looked into in detail.

Outside of the US, theft of an digital items has lead to a few cases, though I don't remember the details. None of those involved actions by the company however. We're talking about things like stealing accounts, or hacking accounts and stealing items from them.

Yes I understand your comments and to be honest to sum it all up, the whole gaming industry and virtual goods is all in a very grey area with laws all over the world not only in the US and personally I think it has got out of hand some of the tactics some companies blatantly rob people out of money and get away with it.

Alot of laws have changed in the past 5 years alone concerning virtual goods and microtransactions, but the big problem is they are not being looked into a passed as quickly as they need to be, some gaming companies change there tactics quicker than the laws can keep up with them and at the end of teh day it is all wrong, both morally and ethically but that's how it is.

elvenmad · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

edit- double post my bad, broke the forum now

Graydon · August 2016

Yes but I just want it to be pay to win items, plus cosmetics

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -

First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.

In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.

This is absolutely hilarious! All this rage and hysteria over ugly costumes and goofy mounts.

Cracking me up!

Lysette · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

deleted - double post

Lysette · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

Not exactly you pay for a pack of x amount of cards, you receive x amount of cards, contract complete... law ends.

I think that's where people are getting tripped up a little. You aren't purchasing a chance of loot, you are purchasing loot. Just like the cards, you don't know what loot is inside, but there is loot. Contract still complete regardless of what the buyer is hoping to get out of the crate.

exactly...... kinder eggs anyone?

Kinder eggs guarantee you a toy of low production value - if a certain toy has a higher collectors value later, that is not part of the deal, you get a low production value toy with the egg.

starkerealm · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I get really indecisive when I see law debates here because, as a lawyer, I do want to participate on it. But, because I know the law is different everywhere, I also know that it doesn't matter much if I participate on it lol
Note: Although there are no ZOS servers here in Brazil, for any company to offer their services here, they must follow our law. Since there are Brazilian costumers, I decided to weight in.

I don't think that, here, this would be considered gambling - which is forbidden, lotteries being a monopoly of the government and any other kind of raffle needing to be authorized first - for two reasons:
1 - Crowns wouldn't be considered legitimate currency, but something that you buy within a game for legitimate currency - and you always get the exact number of Crowns you paid for.
2 - The definition of a gambling game in my country's Criminal Law is "A game on which winning or losing depend exclusively or mainly on luck". When you open a box, you won't find an empty box. Ever. Therefore, I doubt any judge will consider "losing" if you only get consumables. I don't think they would even consider opening the box "a game"; more like buying consumables and having a chance of getting something extra - and this is allowed.

Councillor,

For your review. https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2010/fil10035a.pdf for overveiw. For US statute, see 31 USC 5361 - 5366, 12 CFR Part 233, and 31 CFR Part 32 (Treasury) called out in the overview referenced above. This Act does have specifics for "Cross Border" included. The definitions seem to be broad and the term "Due Diligence" is used more than once. You can read the overview/Statute and gain a opinion if such would be included. There are cases filed, by State Atty Generals now per this Act and they are making their way thru the Courts at his moment under authority of the UIGE.

The problem I see here, is customers making complaints v gaming companies to " transaction companies" with which "Due Diligence" would then be required and/or a State/Fed Atty General looking for another trial case.

Civil Tort is also being used, in fact now v a gaming company where customers are asking the Courts for relief. http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal-gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve and this article included the actual complaint, which is why I linked the article and not the case, itself.

I have also refrained from offering legal opinions on a gaming forum altho I now have one. I have reviewed other legal opinions on Martindale, etc. You are free to make your own conclusions.

Thank you for the information, I will certainly give it a read.

I love studying international law, although Consumer Rights isn't really my area. I work with Criminal Justice - In fact, my final presentation on College was an analysis of the evolution of age of majority and of criminal responsibility in England and Wales, in light of the recent discussion about lowering the age of criminal responsibility in Brazil.

Law in the USA is heavily based on legal precedents, which makes this very interesting to study because it is so different from here. Here, what a judge decides doesn't stop other judges for deciding differently, unless we are talking about the Supreme Court and they specifically say "That's how it is decided from now on". Yes, two cases that are identical can have completely different outcomes here, even in the same city.

I'll be sure to accompany the development of that case.

Game companies get around this by making us buy in game currency i.e Crowns. So the service we are purchasing is Crowns, what we do with them is not protected by the many anti internet gambling laws across EU. Its why games like TERA and Neverwinter get away with selling their gambling boxes.

I've been so excited for the future of this game, One Tamriel is right around the corner. Holiday events are coming up. Vvardenfel etc. But this has really taken the wind out of my sails.

Again, people keep bringing that up. And, it honestly wouldn't surprise me of some of the people in said companies think it's enough. It might actually be an effective screen in other countries, but in the US, gambling regulations can attach when betting occurs using tokens that have been purchased with actual money.

As I recall, one of the original purposes of casino chips was an attempt to skirt around existing laws regulating gambling. Rather obviously, that loophole got closed a long time ago.

Fair enough, I live in the U.S myself. I have yet to see a single gaming company successfully sued in court for this practice. Hence: TERA, Neverwinter, B&S... And soon to be ESO. The list goes on. The reason these aren't won in court is because gamer's aren't winning $money$, they are winning pixels. So the courts look at it for what it is... Idiots being parted with their money.

No, the reason the existing lawsuits haven't gone anywhere is because the cases have been horribly managed. Most of the lawsuits in the US that actually went to trial were by lunatics representing themselves. The CSGO betting scene is the first one likely to actually get there because the money's too good.

Additionally, check your terms of service, you might not actually be allowed to sue ZOS, or Cryptic, or... you get the idea. Since a EULA that stipulates use of third party arbitration is legally binding here.

ToS are only an agreement between you and the company, they are NOT a legal agreement, they can write whatever they want in ToS, legally they mean NOTHING. at the very worse they can do is ban you from using their service thats it.

If you're in the United States, a contract that stipulates any dispute must first pass through third party arbitration prior to any court action is, in fact, legally binding. And, can, in fact, prevent you from suing a company over a tort.

ok ...but:

1. SERVICES; YOUR ACCOUNT(S)
ZeniMax offers a range of services on PC, Mac,

By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.

You agreed to that
so re these boxes: you log their account, you buy their currency, you use their store and purchase one of their boxes and add it to their account, you open it, and if lucky add something nice to their account GG

Yeah, that specific excerpt isn't particularly relevant to... well, much of anything going on right now.

A company can't sidestep gambling regulations by simply renaming things, however, as I've said before, they have taken other steps to slip through actual loopholes the law leaves open. Whether this is malicious, or simply because they're emulating behavior they've seen from other developers, I don't know.

Yes I agree, my point was more about people mentioning law and legalities and this was to show NOTHING is ever yours, NEVER was and NEVER is going to be, no matter how much money you spend on Crowns, once you buy Crowns your Money is gone and you already have NOTHING for it, what ever you do from then on with your Crowns is irrelevant, they are not really yours and what you exchange them for will not be either.

Back on topic, these RNG boxes are just another way, although personally I think a very scummy way, of making you part with even more money for nothing.

To be fair, the "nothing" is yours bit might be a bit of contract fiction. I can't remember seeing it coherently tested. Closest I can think of are some idiots who sued over getting banned. But, that was just a, "well, you broke the terms of the contract," situation. That said, it's not really something I looked into in detail.

Outside of the US, theft of an digital items has lead to a few cases, though I don't remember the details. None of those involved actions by the company however. We're talking about things like stealing accounts, or hacking accounts and stealing items from them.

Yes I understand your comments and to be honest to sum it all up, the whole gaming industry and virtual goods is all in a very grey area with laws all over the world not only in the US and personally I think it has got out of hand some of the tactics some companies blatantly rob people out of money and get away with it.

Alot of laws have changed in the past 5 years alone concerning virtual goods and microtransactions, but the big problem is they are not being looked into a passed as quickly as they need to be, some gaming companies change there tactics quicker than the laws can keep up with them and at the end of teh day it is all wrong, both morally and ethically but that's how it is.

You know that old *** line? "Write your congressman?" Yeah. A lot of the lack of movement on this subject actually comes from inaction on our part. It's not that laws can't keep up, it's that nobody is pushing for them to change. There are a lot of voters who are affected by this, and the money these companies pull in is far to little to start spending serious cash to lobbying contacts. We're not dealing with major legacy players here. If you want to stop this, you've got some fantastic, "think of the children," or, "illegal gambling," approaches that could actually work.

I know, we have the whole, "write your congressman," thing written off as ineffectual and a gag. Like the "please take a number" attached to a grenade pin gag. But, it is a real option.

Lysette · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Cazzy wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

Not exactly you pay for a pack of x amount of cards, you receive x amount of cards, contract complete... law ends.

I think that's where people are getting tripped up a little. You aren't purchasing a chance of loot, you are purchasing loot. Just like the cards, you don't know what loot is inside, but there is loot. Contract still complete regardless of what the buyer is hoping to get out of the crate.

exactly...... kinder eggs anyone?

Kinder Egg never started as just chocolate then charged people for a "chance" of getting chocolate xD

eh what?- what kind of strange Kinder eggs do you have - in germany there is always this chocolate hull with a toy of low production value inside, which you have to assemble by yourself -- or it is a figure of some kind.

Edit: argh sorry, I misread.

Stiltz · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

The more I think about it, I'm actually excited for these boxes because I don't really have anything to spend my eso+ crowns on.

The only things I've bought to date is a guar, a pet, and a merchant. I've got 7k crowns right now just sitting there, if boxes were available right now I'd probably buy 5-10 for the repair kits and consumables for alts mostly, but the chance to get something rare would at least make it kind of exciting.

I think a lot of us just have crowns sitting there from our subscription, I think ZOS knows this as well.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

Not exactly you pay for a pack of x amount of cards, you receive x amount of cards, contract complete... law ends.

I think that's where people are getting tripped up a little. You aren't purchasing a chance of loot, you are purchasing loot. Just like the cards, you don't know what loot is inside, but there is loot. Contract still complete regardless of what the buyer is hoping to get out of the crate.

exactly...... kinder eggs anyone?

Kinder eggs guarantee you a toy of low production value - if a certain toy has a higher collectors value later, that is not part of the deal, you get a low production value toy with the egg.

please see the previous responses to similar misunderstandings. the analogy is not about the contents per se.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

deleted double post

jedtb16_ESO · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

deleted triple post.... everything went a bit weird there for a minute

Recremen · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Stiltz wrote: »

The more I think about it, I'm actually excited for these boxes because I don't really have anything to spend my eso+ crowns on.

The only things I've bought to date is a guar, a pet, and a merchant. I've got 7k crowns right now just sitting there, if boxes were available right now I'd probably buy 5 or 10 for the repair kits and consumables for alts mostly, but the chance to get something rare would at least make it kind of exciting.

I think a lot of us just have crowns sitting there from our subscription, I think ZOS knows this as well.

Most of us are sitting on crowns because we anticipate quality Crown Store content. We didn't buy Crowns hoping for a gambling outlet, we bought them so we could buy good cosmetic items. Instead of gambling boxes, they should just, you know, release more things that people will want to buy. Adding gambling boxes is completely incongruous with solving the "problem" of Crowns sitting around unused.

nimander99 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Graydon wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -

First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.

In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.

This is absolutely hilarious! All this rage and hysteria over ugly costumes and goofy mounts.

Cracking me up!

Ok, I'll explain it from my perspective. I'm a collector of costumes, mounts, pets, styles, and all the other stuff that falls under the collections tab. I've spent countless hours in game earning these items. I've also bought every single mount, pet and costume that has been offered in the CS to complete my collection.

Now there will be cosmetics solely exclusive too the RNG Box. Which means for me to collect these said exclusive items I could potentially have to spend thousands of dollars to get even one...

Up to this point Zenimax has displayed a fair exchange and service, that is good business. Now they are saying, in essence, **** your business and money, we want you to gamble for our very special cosmetics.

Again, you may not care, you may think this is goofy, that I am goofy for enjoying collecting these things. But now Zenimax is encouraging one of the most base impulses in humanity. Gambling. Gambling has been proven to light up the same pleasure centers of the brain that Heroine does...

SilentRaven1972 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Cazzy wrote: »

@wayfarerx Gina also said: Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -

First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.

In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.

But what are the odds that the "item of my choice" is not in the choice selection? Lets say someone gets a Nightmare mount, but wanted the Ice Horse...they already own the Nightmare. Will the selection the person really wanted be available? or is it limited? I still think it's all a bad idea and will open a can of maggots that will rot the game. It makes me very sad.

Myrnhiel · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

I must admit that I only scrolled through the last 10 pages or so, because it already took me a very long time to read all the posts in this thread - and the kinder eggs just caught my eye.
But I think you are referring to this:

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

good grief....

Hand_Bacons comment was related to the fact that some posters were getting carried away with the idea that the random box may contain nothing. he pointed out that they would in fact contain something. i then made the analogy with kinder eggs.

i.e. you are not buying a chance at something. you are buying something. there will be something in the box, or egg.... you just don't know what it is. it is a blind purchase. are you managing to keep up so far?

you are being sold something. it is not an empty box, or egg for that matter. you just don't know what is in the box, or the egg.. clear so far?

so to summarize.....

my comment made no mention of the contents of the box or the egg. it was about the fact, yes the fact, that there would be something rather than nothing in the box, or egg.

to be honest i could not give a flying *************** what is in either the box

or the egg.

now that is cleared up could we move on to something completely different?

or even interesting?

If yes, I am indeed not referring particularly to your "analogy" - I was comparing those two things in general. I know that you are buying "something" - crown boxes or kinder eggs - you are not buying a box of nothing. I didn't say that and I didn't mean that. That's where you get me wrong.

I was referring to the "super special items" that can be found in theses boxes/eggs and how far people are willing to go to get these items. In this context, boxes and eggs are alike.

Recremen · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

nimander99 wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -

First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.

In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.

This is absolutely hilarious! All this rage and hysteria over ugly costumes and goofy mounts.

Cracking me up!

Ok, I'll explain it from my perspective. I'm a collector of costumes, mounts, pets, styles, and all the other stuff that falls under the collections tab. I've spent countless hours in game earning these items. I've also bought every single mount, pet and costume that has been offered in the CS to complete my collection.

Now there will be cosmetics solely exclusive too the RNG Box. Which means for me to collect these said exclusive items I could potentially have to spend thousands of dollars to get even one...

Up to this point Zenimax has displayed a fair exchange and service, that is good business. Now they are saying, in essence, **** your business and money, we want you to gamble for our very special cosmetics.

Again, you may not care, you may think this is goofy, that I am goofy for enjoying collecting these things. But now Zenimax is encouraging one of the most base impulses in humanity. Gambling. Gambling has been proven to light up the same pleasure centers of the brain that Heroine does...

The dude is just trolling, don't give him the time of day. I mean, he even voted for the "I want p2w items in the lockboxes". Best not to engage with it.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

It really bothers me to see 'Exclusive Mounts' (or exclusive anything) hidden behind a real world cash wall. It certainly puts players with a low-or-no budget at a severe disadvantage. People with deep pockets will be more than happy to drop their cash on this gamble so they can rub their fancy mount in the faces of those less fortunate. It's simply not fair.