What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

The_Undefined

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

What bothers me most about ZOS is its lack of ethics. We see this in how it knowingly releases updates with major bugs and how Cyrodiil has been largely ignored for two years. This is another example.

What i don't get is how upset people get over these crates, compared to stuff like the latest Elder Scrolls trading card game, a game built around the concept of buying booster packs and hoping you'll get the right cards for your deck. Its so weird seeing the elder scrolls community prasing Bethesda's Tes: Legends while going insane over Zenimaxs crates.

I know I"m just one in a sea of people here, but I don't at all support that trading card game. Also, that's kind of weird to bring in a totally different game in comparison to a game that's been established for 2yrs suddenly changing it's relationship with its players / business practices.

Sorry if I'm sounding like I'm attacking you, I don't mean to.

JD2013

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

elvenmad wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

I don't think that's the case. My understanding was that they'll have random stuff for sale we can buy instead. Not choose what we want.

I think it is, look. They'll be doing these crown crate seasons, where specific items will be available every time. I'm going to assume not all previous time-limited mounts will be avalible every season.

These Gems can be used to purchase other collectible items from the current Crown Crate season that you'd prefer to have instead.

So the article specifically states that these gems can be used to pick another item from that specific crown case season meaning you get to pick whatever's available in it, including that mount you've always wanted.

IF that is the case, and people who really care about limited time seasonal stuff cosmetics and mounts can outright buy it, that's a pretty fair system.

Well, to me that doesn't sound at all like outright buying it. You will need to purchase crates. As far as I have seen, we are only guaranteed to receive a consumable, which will never be considered a duplicate, and therefore you will get 0 gems. Step 2 is that you will need to get non-consumable items that you already own, since an item you don't own will go directly to your collections and there is no option to trade it for gems. Then (this part is a total guess) I'm thinking different items will be worth different amount of gems. So even if you're lucky enough to say, get some "have been removed from CS" costumes that you already own.. they likely will be worth many gems less than if you're lucky enough to score a few "rare/limited" items that you already own. And THEN... that super rare mount is probably going to cost a ridiculous amount of gems.

Outright buying to me is saying "here is X mount. It costs this much". Not gamble and hope for the mount in question, or gamble and hope for enough duplicates to possibly get enough gems to purchase it in the gem store during that season.

One again, this still isn't all the information and there's a TON of guesswork. The trade in value for gems will make a HUGE difference.

This is it, trying to work out statistics without any facts is impossible and pure guesswork and you will never get the statistics

Even if they say for eg, 1 in every 100 sales has a chance of a rare item, you still cant work it out, in the end you could buy 1 million boxes and never see a mount while your friend could buy 4 boxes and get two mounts, it is what it is pure luck

Yes, RNG loot boxes work that way. Luck.

I am sure the conversion likely won't be great. Things like this will always be skewed in favour of the business. Of course it will be.

Working out the statistics will indeed be nigh on impossible. Even the rate you can convert, for example, how often one might get a duplicate rare item to swap for gems. It will always be skewed.

I like that they are allowing for duplicate items like this, but don't mistake that for me ever going to purchase one of these boxes. Not my thing. I would rather they just put stuff in the store, as on very, very, very rare occasions (three times now in 2.5 years or more) there's been something I want.

But I am also guessing these rare mounts will just be reskin after reskin of existing mounts, too. Nothing of great importance.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

elvenmad wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

I don't think that's the case. My understanding was that they'll have random stuff for sale we can buy instead. Not choose what we want.

I think it is, look. They'll be doing these crown crate seasons, where specific items will be available every time. I'm going to assume not all previous time-limited mounts will be avalible every season.

These Gems can be used to purchase other collectible items from the current Crown Crate season that you'd prefer to have instead.

So the article specifically states that these gems can be used to pick another item from that specific crown case season meaning you get to pick whatever's available in it, including that mount you've always wanted.

IF that is the case, and people who really care about limited time seasonal stuff cosmetics and mounts can outright buy it, that's a pretty fair system.

Well, to me that doesn't sound at all like outright buying it. You will need to purchase crates. As far as I have seen, we are only guaranteed to receive a consumable, which will never be considered a duplicate, and therefore you will get 0 gems. Step 2 is that you will need to get non-consumable items that you already own, since an item you don't own will go directly to your collections and there is no option to trade it for gems. Then (this part is a total guess) I'm thinking different items will be worth different amount of gems. So even if you're lucky enough to say, get some "have been removed from CS" costumes that you already own.. they likely will be worth many gems less than if you're lucky enough to score a few "rare/limited" items that you already own. And THEN... that super rare mount is probably going to cost a ridiculous amount of gems.

Outright buying to me is saying "here is X mount. It costs this much". Not gamble and hope for the mount in question, or gamble and hope for enough duplicates to possibly get enough gems to purchase it in the gem store during that season.

One again, this still isn't all the information and there's a TON of guesswork. The trade in value for gems will make a HUGE difference.

This is it, trying to work out statistics without any facts is impossible and pure guesswork and you will never get the statistics

Even if they say for eg, 1 in every 100 sales has a chance of a rare item, you still cant work it out, in the end you could buy 1 million boxes and never see a mount while your friend could buy 4 boxes and get two mounts, it is what it is pure luck

Well, that isn't true - if the chance is 1% per box - then you can say, the chance to not win anything but consumables with 100 boxes is 0.99^100= 36.6% - that is a rather high chance to not win anything at all by buying those 100 boxes.

There is a difference between luck and probability - luck is when you win something against all odds.

VerboseQuips

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Oh, one more argument against Crown Crates that just popped into my mind.

Before engineers worked on the Crate thingy: Great collectibles are available by paying for them.
After engineers worked on the Crate thingy: Great collectibles are maybe available by paying for them.

I personnally call this an antifeature.

Enough for me tonight, I'll go to bed. Good night, folks!

MarkusLiberty

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

I know I"m just one in a sea of people here, but I don't at all support that trading card game. Also, that's kind of weird to bring in a totally different game in comparison to a game that's been established for 2yrs suddenly changing it's relationship with its players / business practices.

No, I totally get that. But it's interesting to note how different the sub communities are within the elder scrolls community. Elder scrolls online is played by a huge amount of different people from this community, and we need to accept that some things are meant for different customers.

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

If consumables and unwanted non-repeats could be converted to Crown Gems too instead of only repeats, I would be much more likely to accept this system.

JimT722

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

What bothers me most about ZOS is its lack of ethics. We see this in how it knowingly releases updates with major bugs and how Cyrodiil has been largely ignored for two years. This is another example.

What i don't get is how upset people get over these crates, compared to stuff like the latest Elder Scrolls trading card game, a game built around the concept of buying booster packs and hoping you'll get the right cards for your deck. Its so weird seeing the elder scrolls community prasing Bethesda's Tes: Legends while going insane over Zenimax's cosmetic loot crates.

That's because people who play that like trading card games. I don't play it and don't have any desire to. That is the game and people who play it find it fun to build up the perfect deck.

you are missing the point, this is elder scrolls, not a generic mmo milking machine. Look at SWTOR. They rarely release expansions. However, they release previews very often about what is coming in the next cartel pack. They show you flashy pictures of what you might get.

This is what SWTOR focuses on heavily now. Why, because that's what makes them tons of money. This isn't the direction I want to see this game go in. I left SWTOR even though I loved the KOTOR series. I was open to buy 2 play change, now I am beginning to regret that shift as this game is becoming what I don't want.

The_Undefined

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

I know I"m just one in a sea of people here, but I don't at all support that trading card game. Also, that's kind of weird to bring in a totally different game in comparison to a game that's been established for 2yrs suddenly changing it's relationship with its players / business practices.

No, I totally get that. But it's interesting to note how different the sub communities are within the elder scrolls community. Elder scrolls online is played by a huge amount of different people from this community, and we need to accept that some things are meant for different customers.

But it's not for any customer. There is nothing in this system that is good for anyone other than ZOS. Hey, do you want one of those senche mounts? Wouldn't it be better for you to be able to buy it? How is a chance a good thing for you? You're losing money.

There are business laws set in place to protect people from predatory practices. Sure, there were people back in the day that argued against them, but seriously if we didn't have these laws in place we'd be worse off than we are now with the economy.

Look I know that's a huge leap, but if people stop thinking antagonistically against those they disagree with purely for the sake of disagreement or making this situation not seem so bad and actually look at this system, there isn't ANYTHING positive for the player. The ONLY thing good that comes out of this is for gamble addicts to get a quick fix and that is only good for the addict, which isn't good at all since they're hurting themselves.

Hand_Bacon

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

VerboseQuips wrote: »

When the passionnate crowd gets mad about lootboxes, it is because they are realizing that financial people are trying to use their passion, one of the spices of their lives, in order to make profit in a way that not only lacks any consideration and respect for the said passion, but actually harms it. Seeing one's passion turned into a vulgar money sink is the kind of stuff that is likely to detract from the very vitality of this passion.

The object of the passion was created by those financial people for the purpose of making money. So the initial investment was simply a case of passion defeating the obvious?

If passion must rule the day lets let each individual's passion decide their own level of delusion instead of other people's perception of passion dictating whats in my game.

Hand_Bacon

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

The_Undefined wrote: »

Look I know that's a huge leap, but if people stop thinking antagonistically against those they disagree with purely for the sake of disagreement or making this situation not seem so bad and actually look at this system, there isn't ANYTHING positive for the player. The ONLY thing good that comes out of this is for gamble addicts to get a quick fix and that is only good for the addict, which isn't good at all since they're hurting themselves.

Other than the items in the box and a chance for an item they'd have no chance to get otherwise. Legally this is not predatory or gambling.

JimT722

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

The_Undefined wrote: »

Look I know that's a huge leap, but if people stop thinking antagonistically against those they disagree with purely for the sake of disagreement or making this situation not seem so bad and actually look at this system, there isn't ANYTHING positive for the player. The ONLY thing good that comes out of this is for gamble addicts to get a quick fix and that is only good for the addict, which isn't good at all since they're hurting themselves.

Other than the items in the box and a chance for an item they'd have no chance to get otherwise. Legally this is not predatory or gambling.

Just go look at SWTOR. The only thing about that game expanding often is the cartel packs. The focus on that heavily because it makes tons of money. They advertise the rare new items with pictures constantly. It is to trigger you. Sound predatory to me.

Do you want ZoS to focus on this or expanding the universe we have come to love.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

I will give another example to show, why ZOS is pushing this forward - I will again use a 5% chance to win something and I will for the sake of simplicity assume a crowd of 3000 people who buy 14 boxes each to have a 50% chance to win anything. So let's see how this turns out:

1500 of these people will not win anything - that is the flip coin chance which comes with those 14 boxes gone wrong.
1000 will have won 1 item (it is always about 1/3 which is near to the "average")
500 will have won more than 1 item (2.2 in average)

ZOS would have to give out 14x3000x0.05 = 2100 special items. They got from box sales 14x3000x400 = 16.8 million crowns and this means that they made in average 8000 crowns with every special item they had to give out - voila profit like never before - and this already with 5% chance - it will most likely be much less what they offer and this is why they do this.

Lylith

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

just remember, the house always wins.

Hand_Bacon

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

JimT722 wrote: »

They advertise the rare new items with pictures constantly. It is to trigger you. Sound predatory to me.

Where do you draw the line between regular commerce and predatory? That sounds like regular commercial practice to me.

JimT722

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

They advertise the rare new items with pictures constantly. It is to trigger you. Sound predatory to me.

Where do you draw the line between regular commerce and predatory? That sounds like regular commercial practice to me.

I would agree with you if what your buying wasn't random. why not sell directly? because there are plenty of fools out there.

NateAssassin

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Update 13: Adds new special weapon chests that drop dyed weapons! To get a gilded key to open your weapon chest, you need to buy it from the crown store for 500 crowns. Rare drops include special "unusual" effects, and strange kill tracking weapons that track your kills in PvP!

MarkusLiberty

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

why not sell directly? because there are plenty of fools out there.

Look, let's not pretend like there wouldn't be major outraged if Zenimax started selling previously time-limites mounts as reoccurring items in the crown store. The reason me and others are excited about this system is that it seems like a good compromise for keeping these mounts rare, while still giving people a chance at obtaining them.

Could anyone suggest a system that wouldn't upset people?

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

NateAssassin wrote: »

Update 13: Adds new special weapon chests that drop dyed weapons! To get a gilded key to open your weapon chest, you need to buy it from the crown store for 500 crowns. Rare drops include special "unusual" effects, and strange kill tracking weapons that track your kills in PvP!

The problem I see with this move to RNG boxes is, that the temptation for ZOS is high to focus on exclusive items for the boxes instead to bring large DLCs - why would they bother with a large DLC, which they might be able to sell for 4000 crowns, if they can just sell any item they had so far - from 400 crowns to 4500 crowns, for an average price of 8000 crowns via those boxes - (I take the numbers from that example I made above, based on a 5% chance to win something special per box) - even with a "generous" win chance, this would be so much better profit for ZOS than doing actual quality content - and this is what is extremely worrisome seen from a gameplay perspective. The game might extremely suffer from those boxes.

Tib

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example to show, why ZOS is pushing this forward - I will again use a 5% chance to win something and I will for the sake of simplicity assume a crowd of 3000 people who buy 14 boxes each to have a 50% chance to win anything. So let's see how this turns out:

1500 of these people will not win anything - that is the flip coin chance which comes with those 14 boxes gone wrong.
1000 will have won 1 item (it is always about 1/3 which is near to the "average")
500 will have won more than 1 item (2.2 in average)

ZOS would have to give out 14x3000x0.05 = 2100 special items. They got from box sales 14x3000x400 = 16.8 million crowns and this means that they made in average 8000 crowns with every special item they had to give out - voila profit like never before - and this already with 5% chance - it will most likely be much less what they offer and this is why they do this.

You've just effectively shown that ZOS will make good profit without having to prey on the weak and addicted gamblers. 14 boxes is really not a catastrophic amount is it

It's also likely that this is how they reason, meaning they do not target true gamblers per se.

Thanks!

elvenmad

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

They advertise the rare new items with pictures constantly. It is to trigger you. Sound predatory to me.

Where do you draw the line between regular commerce and predatory? That sounds like regular commercial practice to me.

they are predatory, any form of gambling or chance system is predentary by design.

ZoS themselves clearly state this system they designed so players who wanted a certain mount or old stock item could obtain it, thats why they are doing it and by there own admission they target the system to players who want certain items but missed the chance in the past, but to make it even worse they say here is a 'chance' to get it but you have to gamble for it.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

nurrtibub16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example to show, why ZOS is pushing this forward - I will again use a 5% chance to win something and I will for the sake of simplicity assume a crowd of 3000 people who buy 14 boxes each to have a 50% chance to win anything. So let's see how this turns out:

1500 of these people will not win anything - that is the flip coin chance which comes with those 14 boxes gone wrong.
1000 will have won 1 item (it is always about 1/3 which is near to the "average")
500 will have won more than 1 item (2.2 in average)

ZOS would have to give out 14x3000x0.05 = 2100 special items. They got from box sales 14x3000x400 = 16.8 million crowns and this means that they made in average 8000 crowns with every special item they had to give out - voila profit like never before - and this already with 5% chance - it will most likely be much less what they offer and this is why they do this.

You've just effectively shown that ZOS will make good profit without having to prey on the weak and addicted gamblers. 14 boxes is really not a catastrophic amount is it

It's also likely that this is how they reason, meaning they do not target true gamblers per se.

Thanks!

it works of course with common Joe - and when you look at my example, 5 out of 6 who use these boxes will be screwed over, either because they did get nothing at all or items, which are far less worth than what they paid for - just 1 out of 6 has a slight chance to get something "cheaper", but not necessarily that, what he wanted - so in the end pretty much anyone is screwed over who is using these boxes - especially when ZOS will not go for 5% chance but much less than that.

But this does not mean, that gambling addicts and ICD people would not be even more screwed over than common Joe. It will not effect normal people, who are not using those boxes at all - those are the only winners in the end - who refuse to buy them. Well, they and ZOS of course, ZOS will make a nice profit - ... but they might run the game into the ground, so maybe it will not pay off for them in the end.

NateAssassin

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Update 13: Adds new special weapon chests that drop dyed weapons! To get a gilded key to open your weapon chest, you need to buy it from the crown store for 500 crowns. Rare drops include special "unusual" effects, and strange kill tracking weapons that track your kills in PvP!

The problem I see with this move to RNG boxes is, that the temptation for ZOS is high to focus on exclusive items for the boxes instead to bring large DLCs - why would they bother with a large DLC, which they might be able to sell for 4000 crowns, if they can just sell any item they had so far - from 400 crowns to 4500 crowns, for an average price of 8000 crowns via those boxes - (I take the numbers from that example I made above, based on a 5% chance to win something special per box) - even with a "generous" win chance, this would be so much better profit for ZOS than doing actual quality content - and this is what is extremely worrisome seen from a gameplay perspective. The game might extremely suffer from those boxes.

This game will attract the worst type of cancer known to man: CS:GO and TF2 players. That's what I am worried about.

elvenmad

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

why not sell directly? because there are plenty of fools out there.

Look, let's not pretend like there wouldn't be major outraged if Zenimax started selling previously time-limites mounts as reoccurring items in the crown store. The reason me and others are excited about this system is that it seems like a good compromise for keeping these mounts rare, while still giving people a chance at obtaining them.

Could anyone suggest a system that wouldn't upset people?

whats wrong with buying them outright, like you do with everything in normal real life. it seems to have been the fair system for 1000's of years

Who cares how rare they are, they are only reskins, I'm sure the graphics dept could recolour awesome new skins every day, its only colour

Chalinal

No, don't ever add these into the game.

I wanted to add that the only way I could see this Crown Crate idea not destroy half the player base would be to amend it.

IF the idea of Crown-Crate-Only obtainable items, namely mounts and pets- was to be taken out, I could see this not being a TOTALLY corrupted idea. That way the collectors (such as myself and thousands of others) would not be forced to buy the gamble boxes in attempts to get the Crown-Crate-Only mounts and pets. In my opinion, the LIMITED TIME ONLY mounts and pets should remain as such, but I know there are players out there that have been begging for a way to get these mounts and pets that they missed the window of opportunity for. I know that was the original intention of the Crown Crates, but the new addition of Crown-Crate-Only items (especially mounts and pets) is very cruel and predatory. I am sure those with gambling addictions, or just plain collectors such as myself, will have a continued issue with the Crown Crates. Since I know there is 0 chance of ZOS taking this idea out before live, I just hope that someone actually reads this and amends the Crown Crate as mentioned. The Crown Gem solution is a Band-Aid, the thing that really needs to be removed is the Crown-Crate-Only section.


Ideas like this Crown Crate one really make me wish ZOS was in California, so that I could work there and be a part of decisions such as this one. This is a very poor business decision ZOS. The outrage of this one idea will cause many players to turn away from ESO. I love this game and am very passionate about it- things like this nearly bring me to tears. I am not exaggerating.

ADarklore

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

59 pages and still NOTHING from ZOS even acknowledging the results of this thread! Instead we get the 'recap' announcement which includes references to the 'lottery boxes'. Yeah, ZOS listens to their players... RIGHT. Apparently only when it's financially convenient to 'listen'.

Holycannoli

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

why not sell directly? because there are plenty of fools out there.

Look, let's not pretend like there wouldn't be major outraged if Zenimax started selling previously time-limites mounts as reoccurring items in the crown store. The reason me and others are excited about this system is that it seems like a good compromise for keeping these mounts rare, while still giving people a chance at obtaining them.

Could anyone suggest a system that wouldn't upset people?

Selling them directly. I would much rather upset the people that already bought them than deal with a gambling box.

Literally the only item I never want to see sold is the tiger mount, because that's for those of us that subbed the year before it went b2p. Every other item can be brought back and it wouldn't bother me at all, and I've bought a few of those "limited" items. Bring them back! Keep them for sale forever IMO. I'm not buying them because they're limited, I'm buying them because I want them.

If you bought a limited item solely to be a special snowflake, then I have a middle finger that might be appropriate.

Bouldercleave

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

If you bought a limited item solely to be a special snowflake, then I have a middle finger that might be appropriate.

This is really the only post on this entire thread (including some of my own) that I can agree with 100%

Hand_Bacon

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Lysette wrote: »

The problem I see with this move to RNG boxes is, that the temptation for ZOS is high to focus on exclusive items for the boxes instead to bring large DLCs - why would they bother with a large DLC, which they might be able to sell for 4000 crowns, if they can just sell any item they had so far - from 400 crowns to 4500 crowns, for an average price of 8000 crowns via those boxes - (I take the numbers from that example I made above, based on a 5% chance to win something special per box) - even with a "generous" win chance, this would be so much better profit for ZOS than doing actual quality content - and this is what is extremely worrisome seen from a gameplay perspective. The game might extremely suffer from those boxes.

I believe they've stated before in an old live episode that there are distinct teams responsible for different things. By committing to these boxes they are seeing the profit potential and part of that is making the vehicle extremely easy for them to roll out new items. They aren't going to put a system in place that is going to be a further ongoing investment or drain on an already limited workforce. As somebody else stated, they're just reskins.

NateAssassin wrote: »

This game will attract the worst type of cancer known to man: CS:GO and TF2 players. That's what I am worried about.

I could be wrong, but I don't see the implementation of these boxes as a reason for swarms of new players to enter the game. Comparing this game to others like those you mentioned and SWTOR based solely on this one item becoming available is a little over the top, especially when this is just cosmetic.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

ADarklore wrote: »

59 pages and still NOTHING from ZOS even acknowledging the results of this thread! Instead we get the 'recap' announcement which includes references to the 'lottery boxes'. Yeah, ZOS listens to their players... RIGHT. Apparently only when it's financially convenient to 'listen'.

My guess is, they will not listen - I for one have already closed this chapter, ESO is no longer that game which I can enjoy. I will still login from time to time to do sightseeing - I wanted to see Tamriel and I will do this - and when I have seen enough and my ESO+ runs out, I will turn away from this game and never look back - Zenimax games are off limits for me then, no TES VI, nor any Bethesda game, no Arcane game nor any game coming from the Zenimax group - nothing like this anymore - I will not support this kind of business model with my money.

elvenmad

No, don't ever add these into the game.

ADarklore wrote: »

59 pages and still NOTHING from ZOS even acknowledging the results of this thread! Instead we get the 'recap' announcement which includes references to the 'lottery boxes'. Yeah, ZOS listens to their players... RIGHT. Apparently only when it's financially convenient to 'listen'.

Same happened in other mmo's after they announced RNG boxes, If I remember correctly in Archeage there was zero word from Trion at all for 2 weeks, the forums were in chaos and I'm not sure if it was Neverwinter or another they froze the forums.