The Impenetrable Trait & Item Sets

baratron

Divinius wrote: »

Remove Prosperous and Training from all drops, from everything, everywhere.
In other words, make Prosperous and Training available only from crafting.

I'm fine with these traits on newbie gear. They're actually useful when you're low level, especially on your very first character.

Wollust

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, any update regarding this?

MopeyHat

Please remove prosperous/training from all 160 set drops.

My guild is pretty casual/pvp oriented, but I lead a trial group once a week. It's already tough convincing people to come along, and then they get a bunch of trash rewards. You shouldn't have to raid once a night to get a set in a decent amount of time.

DRXHarbinger

Just another note, roll something out that changes everyones CP160 gear in these two trash traits to Divines or infused, it's bit of a kick in the nuts to say dw about it go back and grind in peace knowing it's not there anymore.

Mulcibur

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

There has been a longstanding request from some of our players to consider adding the Impenetrable Trait to item sets that drop from end-game PVE content. We’ve read arguments for and against making this change, and have discussed options among the team here. We’d like to share with you what we’re currently considering.

• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop
• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, except those that drop in Trials
• Remove Prosperous and Training as valid Traits from Trial item sets

Thoughts?

Both of these:
* Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop.
* Remove Prosperous and Training as valid Traits from Trial item sets

But instead of removing it from just Trial item sets, remove Prosperous and Training from boss drops (monster masks), undaunted chests and Trials.

Transairion

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Just another note, roll something out that changes everyones CP160 gear in these two trash traits to Divines or infused, it's bit of a kick in the nuts to say dw about it go back and grind in peace knowing it's not there anymore.

Please don't think to speak for everyone, I'd rather have my Prosperous Skoria helm than a poor-man's Divines (Infused) instead. I think it's very unlikely they'll outright convert existing trait/s though to something else, from what I've seen traits have only changed never been converted to another trait entirely.

ZOS wants you to grind/keep playing for gear, it's the whole reason the RNG system is what it is. They don't care if you're grinding happily or unhappily, so long as you're playing.

pecheckler

Adding impenetrable trait to trials drops would provide an unfair PvP advantage for a small segment players. And there should be 160 purple gear options for the training trait.

I for one am wearing a full elegant training set to help gain CP quicker. Buying the pieces was much cheaper than crafting training gear. I would favor training only being available through crafting but the fact is many players who desire to use training gear lack the required traits.

rhapsodious

pecheckler wrote: »

Adding impenetrable trait to trials drops would provide an unfair PvP advantage for a small segment players.

Can you elaborate? I'm curious to know what you mean.

Jaronking

rhapsodious wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

Adding impenetrable trait to trials drops would provide an unfair PvP advantage for a small segment players.

Can you elaborate? I'm curious to know what you mean.

I think he means that trials are difficult and only a few very skilled players are able to complete them or get 12 people together to try.So maybe he thinks certain players will have gear others can't get.

rhapsodious

Jaronking wrote: »

rhapsodious wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

Adding impenetrable trait to trials drops would provide an unfair PvP advantage for a small segment players.

Can you elaborate? I'm curious to know what you mean.

I think he means that trials are difficult and only a few very skilled players are able to complete them or get 12 people together to try.So maybe he thinks certain players will have gear others can't get.

Assuming that is what he means... isn't that.. y'know, kind of the point? That skilled players are rewarded for being skilled? I mean, I'm still stuck on vMA round 9 (admittedly I haven't tried in a bit, but those damned crystals...), but that doesn't mean that it's unfair that people are running around in Cyrodiil with Maelstrom weapons. (Shh, I know you get them from leaderboards too, but that still requires effort.)

If someone wants to PVP with Vicious Ophidian and can run vSO to get gold jewelry and two pieces of impen gear, more power to them, IMO.

Coolio_Wolfus

My TL:DR suggestion, remove prosperous from game, add inpen drops, move +gold from removed prosperous to existing training one.

Bonuses/Bonii:

1. training gear's +exp with +gold would be useful for most players (although it may need a rename*)
2. swapping prosperous for inpen, changes drops to give inpen fanatics theirs without affecting others
3. cp160 gear cap may raise in future so why remove training now to restore it later?

Regarding the gear cp level +exp at cp 160 works to raise your cp, which could help anyone not on 501/531(SotH) cp catch up with those capped players. (ZOS has previously stated the cap increase depends on how many players have hit the cap each time, therefore more players at the cap = higher cp cap.)

* replacement training +exp +gold names suggested so far:

• Grinding
• Catchup
• Ketchup - splat, refering to non cp players faceplanting.
• ...

Rainteal

What I know:

Training and Prosperous on end-game gear (Vet Dungeons, Undaunted Chests, Trials, vMA, vDSA) should be removed.

This is only part of the problem though. The layers of RNG and lack of "smart loot" are what turn off many of my friends and me in endgame.

"Smart Loot" first. For weekly rewards, I have gotten 3, yes 3, gold Lightning Staves of Lunar Bastion (One was powered). I got a powered 2-hander for my weekly vMA award yesterday. I have gotten sturdy Robes of the Scathing Mage in vICP. Now I am sure that there is someone, somewhere, who could make the argument for some wacky niche build that would use any of these items, but the VAST majority of players would not want any of these items.

Item sets and available traits should be designed with utilization in mind. Specific tank sets should be the only items that have a chance to drop with sturdy and reinforced. Resto staves should be the only weapons that drop with powered. Master weapons and Maelstrom weapons should not drop with charged. Tank set pieces should not drop on a lightning staff. Healing set should not drop on a dagger.

I know that someone here will make the argument about "playing how they want," but any of these odd-ball, niche setups can be built in the myriad options available though the game's robust crafting system (including prosperous and training {which I love for leveling alts!!!!}) We are talking about end-game players here who are pursuing very specific setups for clearing content. This would at least help to remedy the layered RNG we deal with.

What I don't know:

Obviously, we can't just have all loot drop in divines. Are divines and infused the only truly desirable traits that DPS gear could drop? If prosperous and training were removed, would we be just as mad about getting well-fitted or impen? I suppose this will be addressed to a point with the introduction of trading BoP in the group dungeons.

Impen is a great trait for PvP, but does it belong on a PvE loot table? That is a good question. I know there are sets and items that drop that would be desirable for PvP players, but should PvPers be required to do PvE to get their gear? Again, I don't have an answer to that question. I did not collect impen gear in the past due to inventory issues, but with crafting bags now, I suppose I could put together PvP sets with all of my extra space.


TL;DR

Yes: Remove Prosperous and Training from end-game loot

Ambivalent toward Impen on PvE end-game loot

Waseem

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom can you look into veteran and maelstrom arena drop rates? removing useless traits, CP150 weapons from last chest normal mode and 100% weapon chance on last chest

Own

Impen to trial sets also.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

what everybody else said +1

alkodav

But why we can't obtain these sets in impenetrable bying for ap or tel var stones? seems that it would have more logic..
About Prosperous and Training - it's really useless, remove them pls from hi-end drop.

Also i think that rng is dishonest and need fixes - all sets i droped from trials were Prosperous, Training or Well-Fitted.. Where is divines or infused? Also Monster sets with this traits make all of players really dissapoint.

This is injustice...

Coolio_Wolfus

1. Replace: Prosperous with Impenetrable (Gives the loot table +Impen)
2. Rename combined: Training + Prosperous + Decisive (Gives this combined gear trait a use at all levels*)

* Especially where the gear cap is slated to be increased at some future point, meaning if it is removed now it will need reinstatement later, so why not merge bonus giving traits into one. +exp +gold +ulti

There is a precedent for this with the Well Fitted trait: -Sprint cost, -Dodge Roll cost

This would also effectively mean that 2 traits get removed from the drop table and 1 is added, which should by most calculations increase the chances of any given drop by a few percent %.

ZOS could even remove the BoP from the combined (Training + Prosperous + Decisive) trait gear making it TRADEABLE and make it a LEGENDARY gold or EPIC purple drop at the gear max cp level, meaning if no-one wants to buy it for the gear, it would potentially be worth at least the temper value at resale.

---

FAO: @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_MattFiror

xXMichonneXx

Definitely remove prosperous and training from trial drops and add Impen. No one I know wants to work their butts off in a trial and get that junk from drops. thank you for asking!

arkansas_ESO

Remove the concept of random loot altogether and give us a token system. This makes it easier for casual players (which is the audience you guys are after now, right?) to get geared at end-game, and increases the quality of life for hardcore players. You guys already know the current system isn't going to work, otherwise you wouldn't be implementing the tradeable BOP system next patch. Why keep adding onto a flawed system? That's just time you could be spending on working on a new system.

Junkogen

Remove training and prosperous traits from all loot tables everywhere. Make them only craftable traits. It's safe to say the vast majority of players would support that. Please add impenetrable to all loot tables. It's very sought-after in PvP.

Ankael07

I never understood why every item set in the game doesn't have every trait option. Aren't we encouraging players to build in diverse ways?

Phinix1

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

There has been a longstanding request from some of our players to consider adding the Impenetrable Trait to item sets that drop from end-game PVE content. We’ve read arguments for and against making this change, and have discussed options among the team here. We’d like to share with you what we’re currently considering.

• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop
• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, except those that drop in Trials
• Remove Prosperous and Training as valid Traits from Trial item sets

Thoughts?

MORE randomness to the RNG system? No, I don't think that is a good idea at all! Random drops, in random types, with random traits... and you want to multiply the odds of getting anything you want AGAIN?!?

No offense guys, but how many YEARS have people been trying to explain to you the reason why every other game adopts a token system? You cannot have a sustainable game built on an absent guarantee of eventual reward. Yes, the grind is part of an MMO, but it isn't "cruise control for cool."

A rat won't run the maze if it can't smell the cheese. Get it?

SOLUTION:

Create a proper token system already! Alternately (or additionally), allow crafters to re-trait/re-style gear. Create a safety net where even if you NEVER win the slot machine jackpot that is gear progression in this system, you EVENTUALLY save up enough to just buy it outright for tokens in whatever trait you want.

You guys can control how many runs that time takes. You can also control how much mats for re-trait.

Why is this so difficult?

The absence of an eventual guarantee creates burnout.

Period.

Not trying to sound rude but there have been SO many threads talking about this and to my knowledge, the possibility of a token system or crafting re-traiting has NEVER been acknowledged or addressed.

I have rarely seen a system as universally hated as the current RNG system.

GrumpyDuckling

Instead of adding Impenetrable on everything, can you fix PVP critical damage so that Impenetrable isn't a must? If you don't run Impen on your armor you die so insanely fast.

Right now, all those other armor traits go to waste in PVP.

Phinix1

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Instead of adding Impenetrable on everything, can you fix PVP critical damage so that Impenetrable isn't a must? If you don't run Impen on your armor you die so insanely fast.

Right now, all those other armor traits go to waste in PVP.

I actually agree with this as well. Something needs to be done to increase the TTK (time to kill) a bit more. Battle Spirit worked somewhat but that was before all the stamina changes and the burst meta.

As for the token system, I fear it will be ignored because my post wasn't overly positive, though it wasn't overly negative either.

Honestly, it is just a simple safety net against perpetual unluckiness leading to burnout.

Nothing more.

code65536

I would like to take a moment to re-iterate just how useless Prosperous is. So useless that it can't even outperform Impenetrable for mob grinding.

code65536 wrote: »

More data from a classic grind, in response to certain critics who say that I didn't have enough data or that data from trials shouldn't count...

I had a romp today in the Imperial City and Imperial Sewers for a few hours, grossing around 12K stones.

Total gold from kills: 1128g
Total gold from vendorables: 8395g
Total repair bills (with 5p Impen): 971g

(Vendorables are white/green trash armor/weapons. I deconned my glpyhs and also deconned any non-ornate ancestor silk and rubedo leather pieces, and those were not counted towards the vendor total.)

1. Yes, Impen does work. During one of my repair sessions, my Impen gear had around 50g each in repair costs, while my non-Impen gear had around 100g in repair costs.
2. Impen saved me around 50% in repair costs on 5 of 7 pieces of armor. If I had no Impen gear, my repair costs would've extrapolated to around 1510g. Wearing 5p Impen saved me around 539g.
3. If I had instead worn 5p Prosperous, I would've gained 35% more gold, or 395g.
4. So, when grinding PvE mobs in the Imperial Sewers and City, 5p Impen outperformed a hypothetical 5p Prosperous by 144g. Oh, and Impen also helped keep me (mostly) alive during the few player encounters I had.
5. Of course, the big elephant in the room is that 88% of my gold gain during this session didn't come from gold drops at all--it came from all the dropped trash loot that I vendored--the value of the vendorables so greatly overshadow gold drops that even if Prosperous could outperform Impenetrable, it would still be irrelevant.

ZOS going out of their way to remove Impenetrable from the Sanctum and Undaunted loot tables (yes, it was possible to get Impen monster gear and Impen Sanctum trials gear before Dark Brotherhood) and adding in Prosperous shows just how out of touch they are with what players want or even how the math works in their own game. Their move last patch to replace Impenetrable with Prosperous in the loot tables was, frankly, an insult--an unintended one, but one nonetheless. And it absolutely needs to be reverted.

PurifedBladez

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

There has been a longstanding request from some of our players to consider adding the Impenetrable Trait to item sets that drop from end-game PVE content. We’ve read arguments for and against making this change, and have discussed options among the team here. We’d like to share with you what we’re currently considering.

• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop
• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, except those that drop in Trials
• Remove Prosperous and Training as valid Traits from Trial item sets

Thoughts?

You should remove prosperous and training from all end game loot tables. How do you guys not understand that?

And while your at it the useless traits on maelstrom weapons should be removed. Back to sharpened, precise, and defending.

LEGENDARYYY

I would like to see:

- Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop

- Remove Training and Prosperous as valid Trait from all cp160 gear that drops in the game, yes, I don't think people want monster sets with those traits either.....

- Fix prosperous trait, right now you gain nearly nothing by using it under normal play as explained here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/273766/why-prosperous-is-preposterous#latest


I would like to see prosperous trait revamped as a farming set like this (Per piece, in values in white, green, blue, purple, legendary quality):

- Increases gold gained from killis by 10/20/30/40/50% and a 1/2/3/4/5% chance of double the harvest from nodes.


A legendary prosperous item would then give 50% gold gained from kills and a 5% extra chance of double harvest from nodes.

Full legendary set of prosperous would give 350% gold increase from kills and 35% extra chance of double harvest nodes. Pretty balanced right, and useful for farming or while questing and exploring? I guess with some tweaking of these numbers you can easily balance it while still making it useful.

I trust you to figure this out ZOS @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

DRXHarbinger

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom to piggy back on this.

Can cp150 wrothgar dailies be removed too? From cp160 toon onwards. They are as useless to us. The cp150 briarheart inferno I got yesterday was well....a kick in the face whilst being trolled by the orc that gave it to me.

Removal from chests would be good too 9 months down the line and some people don't have a full max level set yet.

Can I get some agrees?

Dubhliam

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom , this is the last week of PTS, and there is still no change in Tel Var sets.
Old Tel Var sets are unavailable in Sturdy.
These include:
Phoenix
Meritorious Service
Powerfull Assault
Shield Breaker
Black Rose
Reactive Armor

Can you give us some insight about this?
Is this intended?
And if not, why is it still not fixed?

Ashtaris

Remove training and prosperous from all CP160 dropped sets, add impen. That's it.