Official Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Balance

dodgehopper_ESO

Akimbro wrote: »

SilentFox22 wrote: »

NORD (suggested passives)

• Inc dmg with 2H
• Dmg mit - bump up to 10%
• Inc max Sta or Sta regen or decrease cost of Sta abilities by x
• Inc max Hp

I don't think you understand what's going on with passives. Every race has a "flavour" or "free" passive like the increased experience gained from X. The ones like fall damage etc. that you and others have been deeming "useless" is supposed to be just that. There's no benefit for them in combat, just for lore. Idk why you think you can get 4 passives for combat, where every race has 3 passives for combat.

I think the Orc passive needs work, simply because it has an endgame where it is no longer useful. They could make it so that you learn traits a little faster, as well as get a 5% better chance to get good loot breaking materials down or upgrading them. Something like that. The Breton passive would probably be better if purchasing rewards with AP were 1% cheaper, rather than earning 1% more which could effect leaderboards unfairly. The Bosmer passive for acrobatics is cool, but it makes me realize how much I wish an Athletics, Acrobatics, Unarmored, and Unarmed skill line were available.

rhapsodious

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The Bosmer passive for acrobatics is cool, but it makes me realize how much I wish an Athletics, Acrobatics, Unarmored, and Unarmed skill line were available.

Bring back being able to jump 10 feet in the air without even using the Boots of Springheel Jak and I will be a very happy camper. A happy camper aggressively bunny hopping my way through the world.

Hell, make Bosmer be able to jump higher instead of taking less fall damage. I just want an excuse to bunny hop, really.

dodgehopper_ESO

Junkogen wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

I'll be honest, I kind of gave up caring. I like my character's concept as a Shadowscale, and changing race would just feel so wrong. My intent is to just make the best shadowscale that I can.

Yeah, I don't know why ZOS heavily promotes Shadowscales with DLC and storylines, but then doesn't allow us to actually play one through character design. They keep changing the Argonian passives to be anything but suited for a Shadowscale playstyle. The closest they ever were was at launch. Then they changed all the game systems which then made them tanks and now healers. It's just irritating.

Thematically speaking, I think it is worth noting that even if an Argonian is not a shadowscale, according to theme Argonian males tend toward a skillfulness with stealth and guerrilla warfare. They are excellent hunters and fishermen, and move silently through the bogs. They often fill the ranks of the Thieves guild, and are known for having excellent athletics. The females tended more toward magic use, although as a race and culture they did tend toward strong knowledge of alchemy and restoration magic. What does all of this mean? This means even the non-Shadowscale Argonians have a tendency toward guerrilla warfare skills and what other races consider nonconventional warfare. I picture things like disease, poison darts, blowguns, spears, daggers, etc from silence. Hit and run tactics. In many ways the Orc passives feel more like a male Argonian than an Orc, simply because Orcs were good at burst damage, but got tired. The strength of Argonians has always been that they are essentially tireless, which is WHY I've suggested so many times that the race should just get a strong flat bonus to all Regeneration. Giving them a strong bonus to all regeneration would allow for all build styles, and totally fit the race as a whole, as the jack of all trades that they are.

dodgehopper_ESO

Arato wrote: »

Van_0S wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Why not give Nords a magicka/ spell damage buff? The greatest human mage in the history of Tamriel was a Nord (Shalidor) so this wouldn't exactly be lore breaking. Nord magicka sorcs need some love!

Shalidor being the best mage was not due to him being a nord though, mage is an atypical archetype for Nords, most distrust magic, same as redguards.

It would not be suitable for Nord, Orc, or Redguard to have any kind of magicka bonus or spellcasting bonus.

Just as it would not be suitable for Bretons or Altmer to have any kind of stamina bonus or physical damage bonus.

Races that have always been seen as kind of hybrids capable of doing either are Argonian, Dunmer, Imperial

Khajiit weren't known to be mages all that often but neither were they particularly biased against magicka, so it wasn't common, but it wasn't exceptionally rare either, Bosmer were similar in this regard. They didn't distrust magicka, but they didn't specialize in it either.

Lorewise it'd make most sense for:

Warriors/Tanks: Orc, Nord, Imperial (which I guess is what's happening but Orc needs a stronger health bonus and I'd say stronger incoming healing bonus, currently they're a weaker version of Argonian prior to these changes)
Mages: Altmer (offensive), Breton (defensive/support)
Thieves/Physical DD: Redguard, Khajiit, Bosmer

Hybrid: Dunmer, Argonian

Dunmer I think is doing the hybrid thing okay, though it is a little leaning towards Magicka but I think they always did lean a little bit towards magic (though they used short blades as a major skill)

Argonian you may as well bite the bullet and complete your ritual of flipping off everyone who ever made an Argonian tank and take away their health bonus and make it a stam bonus instead, just give us all a free race/name change.

Lore wise, Redguard are warriors not thief's.

Khajiit are thief's but bosmer is second to thievery and are more towards everything but are not conquerors.

Obviously my Warrior/Mage/Thief constellation reference went over your head.

Redguards aren't really tanks and were never intended to be tanks is why I put them as thieves rather than warriors. Warriors were for the tank inclined races.

I understood what @arato was saying, but I can see why here was a confusion. Each starsign has a 'style' behind it, particularly when you look at the way this game plays out. Health = Tank = Warrior, Stamina = StDps = Thief, Magic = MDps/Heal = Mage. This does bring up some of my points of view about how the Health/Tank build could use ways to feel more warrior like. (I've offered the suggestion that they make weapon combos for these, and pump up things like regeneration or light/heavy attack damage based on health).

dodgehopper_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

Bosmer's racial passive is a joke. Who cares about fall damage? Why not give Bosmer a bonus to Bow damage? You know, since there's a buff to literally every other form of weapon damage in some racial passives EXCEPT RANGED PHYSICAL.

People say that, and then I think about how many times I've knocked people off of keeps with my aedric spear. I'm not convinced its worthless.

HuawaSepp

Actually it looks like the races are supposed to be forced in an exact role.
Play how you want, but be ready for the punishment if you play wrong.
And even then I have no plan where orc or bosmer fits

The skills also get a mark for dps/tank/heal.
Then people know not to use healing ward as dd for example...

The most of you define "balance of the classes" different how zos does
ZOS gives kahjiit a buff and bosmer nothing.
You recommend to give bosmer a buff and kahjiit nothing.

I mean if we only look at these opinions, something is wrong there.

Another good example was the stam sorc thread that leads to the "buff" to surge.

Argonians were switched from tank to healer,
but why? That has nothing to do with balance.

The change to races is just a buff for some playstyles. Stam DKs now get an additional 6% stam bonus for example.

Are we really supposed to talk about "how good this percentual number looks on this race" or what?

dodgehopper_ESO

HuawaSepp wrote: »

Actually it looks like the races are supposed to be forced in an exact role.
Play how you want, but be ready for the punishment if you play wrong.
And even then I have no plan where orc or bosmer fits

The skills also get a mark for dps/tank/heal.
Then people know not to use healing ward as dd for example...

The most of you define "balance of the classes" different how zos does
ZOS gives kahjiit a buff and bosmer nothing.
You recommend to give bosmer a buff and kahjiit nothing.

I mean if we only look at these opinions, something is wrong there.

Another good example was the stam sorc thread that leads to the "buff" to surge.

Argonians were switched from tank to healer,
but why? That has nothing to do with balance.

The change to races is just a buff for some playstyles. Stam DKs now get an additional 6% stam bonus for example.

Are we really supposed to talk about "how good this percentual number looks on this race" or what?

I'm a broken record on this, but I think the best thing they could do with Attribute/Regeneration bonuses to make them a specific number for a specific character-CP/Level. The whole percent-based bonuses is a big part of why racial passives are a problem in a game with such a high ceiling on damage attributes (ie: no softcap/overcharge).

ShedsHisTail

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

I'm not outraged.
I expect some adaptation will be necessary in the future, but I'm confident I'll be able to remain viable on all three Argonian Nightblades I play; tank, dps, and healer.

rhapsodious

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I'm not outraged.
I expect some adaptation will be necessary in the future, but I expect I'll be able to remain viable on all three Argonian Nightblades I play; tank, dps, and healer.

Amen!

I mean, I only have my one Argonian NB but she's my main and we've gone pretty far. She just might be going magicka because I felt like a change. I don't think this change even affects DPS that much. Healing is better, and tanks will be healed for a bit less but you're usually overhealed in PVE anyway, so uh. Plus your self-heals should still be just as effective.

Don't speak for all of us, please.

wayfarerx

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

@Personofsecrets I love your Orsimer suggestions. I was hoping the revisiting of racials would get me to change from deinstalled to reinstalled but that is very doubtful. For all of 2 months, including the betas I particapted in, I've played orcs. From the start I always felt we were more wood orcs than dragontail orcs and that never sat well with me, I abhor wood orcs.

I've also played magicka and stamina verisions of orcs. My favorite had to be an orc healer, many would recognize that playing an orc healer in relation to orc passives you get little boosts. Prior to the magicka or stam meta I loved the hybrid builds. ZoS seems to forget every orc stronghold has a shaman, they focus on alchemy and some magic.

I always though orcs should get an armor bonus, being natural smiths any armor they pick up can be made better and any armor they craft is better than other races. Not sure of the values but increasing armor but this differs from nords damage resist as armor can still be penetrated. This would also allow orcs to hit the armor cap easier or experiment with 5/1/1 combos or 5/2 combos with less of a penalty. This benefits both orc warriors and shamans.

I also liked the suggestion of orcs being able to penetrate armor easier. I believe @OrphanHelgen brought this up. It fits well within our lore since our weapons are made better and we swing really damn hard.

Non-combat related I think instead of adding a terminal bonus making nodes more plentiful for orc gatherers is excellent, we naturally mine for our smiths this is perfect. Sorry forgot who suggested this!

From the start orcs have always been limited, even the change to increase damage applies to specific situtations while other races have bonuses applied to many situtations. It would be nice for orcs to finally move out of the hyper specific mold into passives that have a greater breadth. It saddens me the limited orc discussion in this thread.

Thanks for reading a rather long post but Orsimer culture is a passion of mine.

PS restore our original sprint bonus

ShedsHisTail

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

Does the bonus to healing include healing done upon yourself?
Because if so, I'm pretty sure my Sap tank will be fine.

wayfarerx

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

Does the bonus to healing include healing done upon yourself?
Because if so, I'm pretty sure my Sap tank will be fine.

Yeah healing done is any healing that occurs because you pushed a button, so Strife / Sap Essence should work just the same as before (or even better with the magicka buff). The only difference is that the heals you get from your healer will not be quite as strong.

ShedsHisTail

wayfarerx wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

Does the bonus to healing include healing done upon yourself?
Because if so, I'm pretty sure my Sap tank will be fine.

Yeah healing done is any healing that occurs because you pushed a button, so Strife / Sap Essence should work just the same as before (or even better with the magicka buff). The only difference is that the heals you get from your healer will not be quite as strong.

Which just means I gotta hit the button a little more often.

Akimbro

SilentFox22 wrote: »

Akimbro wrote: »

SilentFox22 wrote: »

NORD (suggested passives)

• Inc dmg with 2H
• Dmg mit - bump up to 10%
• Inc max Sta or Sta regen or decrease cost of Sta abilities by x
• Inc max Hp

I don't think you understand what's going on with passives. Every race has a "flavour" or "free" passive like the increased experience gained from X. The ones like fall damage etc. that you and others have been deeming "useless" is supposed to be just that. There's no benefit for them in combat, just for lore. Idk why you think you can get 4 passives for combat, where every race has 3 passives for combat.

Thank you for being constructive with your criticism. : )

Ideally, I'd really like to see all passives become useless flavor traits so it won't matter what race you choose. I'd also like to see all class abilities removed and mainstreamed for any class/race combination. Would keeping classes in place with appropriate themed passives, but removing class abilities be as difficult as removing classes altogether? If class abilities were more mainstreamed, would that not itself minimize the need for so much class balancing for the developer? I feel like popular builds would create counter-popular builds would create counter builds to that and so on more naturally - with players themselves maintaining a balance, leaving ZoS to focus more on bug fixes, new content and such. (A gal can dream)

Yes it would make it more balanced so every class would essentially be the same. But by doing so, you would be removing the uniqueness that each class has to offer and the different playstyles. At that point, there would be no point to play more than one character, since every class would have the same (or similar) damage, cc, defensive, and healing skills, just with a different name and animation. I agree balance is important, but not at the expense of differentiation.

wayfarerx

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

Does the bonus to healing include healing done upon yourself?
Because if so, I'm pretty sure my Sap tank will be fine.

Yeah healing done is any healing that occurs because you pushed a button, so Strife / Sap Essence should work just the same as before (or even better with the magicka buff). The only difference is that the heals you get from your healer will not be quite as strong.

Which just means I gotta hit the button a little more often.

Exactly. I'm only really seeing the Argonian changes as a nerf to stamina tanks and, to a lesser extent, stamina DDs. With the amount of overhealing that happens in this game, however, it doesn't seem like it's going to be that big of a deal, but then again I don't play any Argonian stamina builds.

Akimbro

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Akimbro wrote: »

SilentFox22 wrote: »

NORD (suggested passives)

• Inc dmg with 2H
• Dmg mit - bump up to 10%
• Inc max Sta or Sta regen or decrease cost of Sta abilities by x
• Inc max Hp

I don't think you understand what's going on with passives. Every race has a "flavour" or "free" passive like the increased experience gained from X. The ones like fall damage etc. that you and others have been deeming "useless" is supposed to be just that. There's no benefit for them in combat, just for lore. Idk why you think you can get 4 passives for combat, where every race has 3 passives for combat.

I think the Orc passive needs work, simply because it has an endgame where it is no longer useful. They could make it so that you learn traits a little faster, as well as get a 5% better chance to get good loot breaking materials down or upgrading them. Something like that. The Breton passive would probably be better if purchasing rewards with AP were 1% cheaper, rather than earning 1% more which could effect leaderboards unfairly. The Bosmer passive for acrobatics is cool, but it makes me realize how much I wish an Athletics, Acrobatics, Unarmored, and Unarmed skill line were available.

I agree the Orc flavour passive could use a secondary effect. Reduce trait research is a good suggestion but again, that would have an end to its use as well. In the end, I think people are focusing on these flavour passives a bit too much, as they're just supposed to be fun, lore-friendly additions.

ShedsHisTail

wayfarerx wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

Does the bonus to healing include healing done upon yourself?
Because if so, I'm pretty sure my Sap tank will be fine.

Yeah healing done is any healing that occurs because you pushed a button, so Strife / Sap Essence should work just the same as before (or even better with the magicka buff). The only difference is that the heals you get from your healer will not be quite as strong.

Which just means I gotta hit the button a little more often.

Exactly. I'm only really seeing the Argonian changes as a nerf to stamina tanks and, to a lesser extent, stamina DDs. With the amount of overhealing that happens in this game, however, it doesn't seem like it's going to be that big of a deal, but then again I don't play any Argonian stamina builds.

Well... If you're Stam-Tanking as a Nightblade, you've chosen to play hard-mode anyway, so...
I mean, Sap tanking is like cruise-control by comparison.

Tevalaur

At present the health recovery boost of up to 30% applies to Khajiit (AD), Orc (DC), & Nord (EP). Although Orc & Nord health recovery rates will drop to 20%, after this "balance" there will be no race within AD that will have improved health recovery passives. Seems less like "balance" and more like you're trying to kill off AD players.

Also, this makes Bosmer & Khajiit too similar. Why would anyone ever choose a Bosmer over a Khajiit after these changes?

dodgehopper_ESO

Tevalaur wrote: »

At present the health recovery boost of up to 30% applies to Khajiit (AD), Orc (DC), & Nord (EP). Although Orc & Nord health recovery rates will drop to 20%, after this "balance" there will be no race within AD that will have improved health recovery passives. Seems less like "balance" and more like you're trying to kill off AD players.

Also, this makes Bosmer & Khajiit too similar. Why would anyone ever choose a Bosmer over a Khajiit once the Khajiit gets more maximum stamina & stamina recovery than a Bosmer?

Actually Khajiit CURRENTLY has 20% health regen + 20% 10% stam regen. Orc and Nord CURRENTLY have 30% Health regen.

Bosmer still has superior stamina regeneration than Khajiit 21% vs. 10%.

Bosmer/Argonian disease and poison resists are currently too low to make a difference, and I agree this does create a problem with the differences between Khajiit and Bosmer.

I still make the case that any attribute bonuses should be a static amount, and not a percentage, otherwise race will always annoyingly funnel players into the role for which they are cast. If you get vastly less out of your race for not diving all in on that races' favored attribute, you're getting hit twice. Its a mistake they really should correct.

Edited: Because I mistyped the stamina regeneration portion, and I wanted to clarify it. I don't want to spread misinformation. It was clarified when I compared Bosmer/Khajiit, but for the sake of clarity I've edited this post.

CP5

Tevalaur wrote: »

At present the health recovery boost of up to 30% applies to Khajiit (AD), Orc (DC), & Nord (EP). Although Orc & Nord health recovery rates will drop to 20%, after this "balance" there will be no race within AD that will have improved health recovery passives. Seems less like "balance" and more like you're trying to kill off AD players.

Also, this makes Bosmer & Khajiit too similar. Why would anyone ever choose a Bosmer over a Khajiit once the Khajiit gets more maximum stamina & stamina recovery than a Bosmer?

Exactly these, 2 AD races are so much alike why bother having a difference, and no AD race offers help to health regen builds. If they reverted the khajiit passive change than every faction would have a +20% health regen and something else race to pick if someone wanted to build toward that. Now AD characters have 2 flavors of bonus stam/stam recovery and no health based race at all.

Tevalaur

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually Khajiit CURRENTLY has 20% health regen + 20% stam regen. Orc and Nord CURRENTLY have 30% Health regen.

Bosmer still has superior stamina regeneration than Khajiit 21% vs. 10%.

Guess I need a new bookmark... I show the Robust 10/20/30% health regen as applying to Khajiit, Orc, & Nord. And I see Bosmer Vigor as granting "Stamina Recovery by 3/6/9%" so didn't see the 21% you mention. Perhaps the site I read for those values is woefully out-of-date...

Footfalls

To summarize Argonian changes:
People who are happy: magicka builds, builds that heal others (sap tanks)
People who are not happy: stam builds, tanks that like getting healed

Also, lore! When I think Argonians I think resilient, sneaky, stealthy, guerilla warfare, poison darts, scouting and skirmishing. Not "good at healing others". Or even magicka, I maintain they should be more stamina based and dark elfs be more magicka based.

Or one day in the future, allow racial passive morphs so players can choose what kind of build they want to go.

Footfalls

My ideal solution to this Argonian passive change would be 3% more magicka and stamina, and 6% more healing received and healing done (or whatever percentage healing would be balanced).

Nirnroot

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Greetings @ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @Wrobel ,

First and foremost, thank you for taking a look at this feedback. I hope to have a short and simple discussion with you as to why Orcs should further change so that they don't end up as just a shadow of the other classes. The reason that you should take my suggestions into account is because I have played as an Orc, almost exclusively, since I started playing during early patch 1.3.

I do want to give some credit to the designer of the Orc passives because it is unique in a sense. I see many Orc players who want to feel like a rough and tumble individual who can take a beating and dish out a beating too. That being said I will be focusing on the drawbacks of the current Orc, the drawbacks of the future Orc, and how Orc can be improved to be more in line with the other strong races.

A. Current

The current issue with the Orc is that, though unique in it's abilities to run fast and deal extra damage with physical attacks, those passive effects are extremely limited.

That extra speed almost doesn't matter in PVE and even in PVP, trying to catch someone with that extra running speed can almost feel like a trap because running to catch someone can leave the Orc who is in pursuit with no resources left to deal damage.

The extra damage done with physical attacks is also SEVERELY limited. Because of the many criteria that the type of physical attack must fall under in order to get the passive Orc buff it becomes true that only a small minority of stamina cost abilities are buffed by the Orc: attacks must be 5 meters or less, single target, and those limitations are very restricting. Comparing this passive to the Khajiit passive of increased critical damage and we will see how Khajiit gets a great amount of extra damage via it's bow attacks, dots, AOE attacks, single target attacks that are more than 5 meters in rang, and even the so-called Orc specialty of single target attacks that are less than 5 meters in range,

If we add the health regen passive that Orcs have on top of this, then we still basically don't have very much. The health regen Orc passive has always been only a small step above swimming speed and that is especially so today when players are trying to enjoy being a vampire. That means that current and future metas directly contradict any beneficial aspect that Orcs may receive from having extra health regeneration.

B. Future Issue

In the future, the major change for Orcs will be to gain healing received. If we keep in mind how Orcs currently rank, then we will understand how Orcs will still not be that special, power level wise, in the future. Giving Orcs a passive effect of healing received, a passive that was bad enough to be taken away from the Argonian race this very same update, does not only make Orcs no more desirable, but no more powerful in the future.

I'd like to add to the above that this healing received, similar to the run speed dilemma and health regen issues, just isn't a useful stat. The game has evolved to the point where healing received is boring and not useful. During 1.3 or against 1.5 Mantikora, I would have been thrilled to have extra healing received on the burn phases that required big healing ticks, but because of changes to the Champion Point system with regards to damage mitigation, it is likely that anything which kills a PVE player was a one shot. Healing received just doesn't work in this and the future meta that we will have.

Additionally, but on a smaller note, the increased inspiration amount is not exciting. It makes sense as to why Orcs gain crafting inspiration, but compared to other races, extra inspiration gained is not inspiring at all. The reason for this notion is because some passives, such as increased gold gain or increased chance to pickpocket will always be useful, but increased inspiration gain is not useful for anyone that completes their crafting levels.

C. My Proposed Solution

I have thought hard and long about these solutions. I have played as an Orc tank who can PVP as a tanky DPS for years. I talk to the players who have rolled Orc just for fun and even tried to make an Orc only guild at one point. I really want this race to be better for, lack of better phrase, the long term health of the game.

I also look to other common themes in the Elder Scrolls to draw inspiration as to what an Orc is and what feels cool. It is safe to say that I have thought quite a bit about the Orc passives and how to make them better - I even tried to have this conversation with @ZOS_GinaBruno when Imperial City was due for release.

1. First Bad Issue

I understand why Orcs have extra damage done and running speed. Orcs are into athletics and, like I alluded to earlier, can hold their own in a bar fight. That being said, it isn't very fair for Orcs if their passives can't work most of the time just like how the Khajiit racial passive benefits Khajiits no matter what type of attack that they are trying to dish out damage with.

2. Second Bad Issue

I understand why Orcs have health recovery and healing received. Orcs can take a beating, get back up, take another beating, and get back up again. It just isn't very fair for Orcs that they get these passives when the Imperial race will be consistently better at not getting Knocked out cold for just having a bigger stat pool. The nature of this game just does not allow for racial passives that deal with health recover and healing received to be that useful.

I am not saying that the Orc has to be a Khajiit and Imperial to be good or even interesting, but there is something wrong and not fair to Orc players when the Orc race get's easily outclassed by other Races in terms of damage and survivability because of how game mechanics work. How I would re-imagine the Orc follows.

3. First Good Solution

What is a stat that deals with taking a beating which Orcs, traditionally in Elder Scrolls games, have? Well I imagine that this passive that I am thinking of involves the ultimate generating system. In Skyrim Orc's had the ability to berserk. Like ultimate abilities in ESO, Orcs had to bide their time before being able to berserk and also like using an ultimate orcs would deal more damage after berserking. Biding time is synonymous with gaining ultimate, taking a beating, berserking, dealing big berserk damage, and, lets just be honest, being an Orc.

Please give Orcs the ability to gain extra Ultimate when the are struck and take damage. This type of an effect will not only be in line with Orcs of passed Elder Scrolls games, but it will also be very flavorful, and put Orcs in a very unique spot as damage takers who you better not think about crossing.

4. Second Good Solution

What is a way to make Orcs damage dealing capabilities more consistent? Well, the short and simple way would be to give Orcs and percentage increase to their weapon damage. This would make sure that Orcs are good at stamina based battle, that is in line with their athleticism, and also in line with the other classes who benefit from their passives consistently
.

Overall, the Health Recovery/Healing gained and the Swift passive could be totally lost and very little of value would be lost. If these passives that I suggest where to be added to Orcs, dealing with Ultimate gained per hit and % increase of weapon damage, then I think Orcs would be in a great spot.

Again, I want to finally feel good as an orc and I never have. Please take it from me, an expert Orc, that I know what I want, am suggesting things that are fair which would make Orc players happy, and that I thinking of changes which are in line with the Elder Scrolls brand and, especially, the Elder Scrolls Online as a whole.

Thank you,

LT

I totally agree. Orc were badly treated in this update with respect to such Argonians's or Khajiit's. I recall that, according to all statistics Orc are the rarest race of choice - should not, therefore, their "passive skills" to attract more players?

Xsorus

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

Justice31st

[*] Are the changes going to make you change your character's race? If so, why?


You guys still don't get it do you lol. ZOS wants the race changes to make you pay for a crown store race change. There is no point on complaining. This is their business model.

kojou

What do you think about the changes?

Overall I like them. Seems like most races have fairly equally compelling choices depending on the build.

Are there any that you feel are too strong compared to the others? Too weak?

Bosmer is too weak IMO. Stamina regen is shut off while moving in stealth, sprinting, and blocking, so it is not a particularly desirable a bonus. Bosmer not as good as the Redguard for resource sustain, and Khajiit is now more compelling for stealth attack/gank builds.

I vote for giving Bosmer 3% poison and disease damage.

Nord is also still a little weak.

I would vote for giving the Nord stamina cost reduction, or changing the way resistance is calculated so the Nord gets a true 6% damage reduction before other resistances are applied.

Did you encounter any issues with the new Racial Passive changes?

No.

Are the changes going to make you change your character's race? If so, why?

I am changing my Bosmer Nightblade to an Altmer. Bosmer's passives aren't particularly good for anything other than stamina based ganking, and I like the playstyle of a magicka nightblade better now anyway. I also have a Bosmer Sorcerer that I made for... reasons that I will be changing to a Khajiit or Altmer.

Are the changes going to encourage you to adjust your current build? If so, how?

My Nord Dragon Knight is the only character effected by the changes. I will keep him the same though. Since the changes won't effect how I use him as a tank.

Junkogen

Footfalls wrote: »

To summarize Argonian changes:
People who are happy: magicka builds, builds that heal others (sap tanks)
People who are not happy: stam builds, tanks that like getting healed

Also, lore! When I think Argonians I think resilient, sneaky, stealthy, guerilla warfare, poison darts, scouting and skirmishing. Not "good at healing others". Or even magicka, I maintain they should be more stamina based and dark elfs be more magicka based.

Or one day in the future, allow racial passive morphs so players can choose what kind of build they want to go.

I would be in the camp that feels they didn't get enough of a boost in magicka to matter at 3%. What is that like 300 extra magicka? Not even a glyph's worth. I think ZOS and some players overvalue the current Argonian passives. At minimum, Argonians should have gotten either 6% boost to magicka or stamina with this update, especially with the change to healing received, which hurts our survivability. The potion passive is just bad. A 45 second cooldown and no way to reduce it? That passive is pretty weak, flat passive regeneration would be much better. Argonians are still in a rough spot.

MrTarkanian48

In order to make Bosmer a competitive option.

Either bump their stamina to a 6% increase to be in line with Khajiit

OR

Give them a 3-5% increased range/bow damage increase