Official Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Balance

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

This is the official feedback thread for the Racial Passive balance changes coming with Update 11. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• What do you think about the changes?
• Are there any that you feel are too strong compared to the others? Too weak?
• Did you encounter any issues with the new Racial Passive changes?
• Are the changes going to make you change your character's race? If so, why?
• Are the changes going to encourage you to adjust your current build? If so, how?

zerosingularity

See every thread about Khajiits.

Nifty2g

I'll begin

How come this is still not added into the game? I was for sure with this racial rebalance we would be seeing a passive to Altmer or Breton to increase Magic Damage by 3-5%, for the classes of Nightblades and Templars are becoming weaker and weaker due to the fact they just can't keep up with Fire, Frost and Shock Damage bonuses.

From a balance point of view I see no reason why this isn't in the game at the moment. It's still very early into the PTS, I'm hoping it can be made into Live, especially with the recent change to Dunmer including all the Elemental Damage in the world but leaving Altmer or Breton without Magic Damage.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Magic damage should be given to Altmers for obvious lore reasons, Bretons could use some love but I am very against lore discrepancies. Bretons have always been good at mitigating magical damage, rather than controlling it. Their spell resistance passive should have an added bonus where they restore a minor amount of Magicka based on the damage taken from Elemental/Magic (1-3%, with a possible cap of resource return, or even a flat value).

Altmers should then receive the Magic damage amp and see a 1% nerf to all sources (instead of 4% Fire/Ice/Shock, 3% of each + Magic damage).

Poison/Disease damage to Woodelves, as Argonians are already pretty suitable in terms of healers and tanks now. 2-3% Poison+Disease damage, and reduction would be a balanced setup to put them in line but not over the top with other Stamina builds.

The main thing when dealing with racial reworks in gauging them in terms of power for a multitude of specs, rather than just one aspect of game play. For example, Khajiit recently got a 6% Stamina amp, despite being the highest PvE dps in game at the moment. Sure they sacrifice sustain, but good play can alleviate that. Their efficiency severely dipped in terms of PvP due to Poisons (Minor Uncertainty/etc) and Impen/Resiliant stats, making them by far the worst stamina race in that light.

Dracane

The Khajiit changes are overkill. If you buff Khajiit, then you could as well buff Altmer and Breton.
Khajiit has excellent passives and the stamina bonus is too much of a benefit.

I would just remove it entirely.

DHale

No matter what they do you (all) would complain. So now anyone can change their race to khajit or red guard or whatever yet still you all complain. Egads. Ppl say that the devs don't listen unfortunately they do listen. That's a great deal of problem they listen and make changes that a vocal minority ask for. I am happy as no one will discuss further what the best nb will be wood elf or khajit at least.

wayfarerx

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

olsborg

You buffed one of the top stamina races....why? (kahjit)

Shadesofkin

I love the Dunmer changes. Absolutely love them.

ShedsHisTail

Since we have a large muscular tail, I feel as though Argonians, and to a lesser degree, Khajiit should be more balanced than other races.

That's just biology, ya know.

GreenSoup2HoT

Khajiit racial buff was not necessary. Many threads and players agree that they are the TOP race for stamina PVE dps. Additional thoughts about Khajiit inside spoiler.

Here are a list of changes i would have liked to see that did not happen (all my opinion's fellow forum user's). Additional thought's inside.

Imperial
-Increased maximum stamina passive Conditioning to 15%, up from 10%. Renamed this passive to Imperial Discipline.

Red Guard
-Adrenaline Rush - Increased the cooldown of this passive to 5/(X) seconds, up from 3 seconds.

Nord
-Increased Rugged passive to 12%, up from 6%.

I personally believe Imperial's should have 15% maximum stamina for a couple of reason's. Imperial's are a good race but lack sustain. With this buff, i believe they would be a great competitor for PvE dps because you can relie on your group mates for sustained resource assistance. They are also too similar to Redguard, when i picture both race's fighting, i believe Imperial should do more damage but loose on the sustained battle. (Also note Zos this is your Imperial Edition Race)

The increased cooldown to the Red Guard Adrenaline Rush passive is a slight nerf because i believe it is still a little to powerful. Many build's can throw resource recovery out the window and only relie on this passive. This is a slight nerf and i think is justifiable. (This is not the end of the world Red Guard's, just a slight balance tweak).

The Nord Rugged passive need's a buff. With addition to the stamina buff it received in this update, i believe Nord would be a great choice for many play-style's. When compared to Imperials, you will deal less damage but you will have much more damage mitigation. This passive also should not be effected by battle spirit in cryodill.


The changes to Khajiit i think are a little overkill. This race was already the TOP race for stamina dps. With this recent change to Khajiits passives (increased maximum stamina to 6%), they now step into the Bosmer's territory as the "best GANK race" for pvp in cryodill. I do not think Khajiit should have this right and should perform second best in GANK scenario's. Revert the maximum stamina increased to health and i think this is a fine change. This would also retain Bosmer's former glory of "TOP GANK" race and give that race a specialty.



My comments on all the tweak's to Affinity passive's.

I personally think each race should have something specific that buff's what ever Affinity bonus they have.

Breton - Light Armour Affinity - Grants X% more spell penetration with Light Armour (5 pieces or more)
Orc - Heavy Armour Affinity - Grants X% stamina recovery with heavy Armour (5 pieces or more)
Redguard - Shield Affinity - Reduce cost of Bash (Shield equipped)
Imperial - Shield Affinity - Increase damage of Bash (Just something different then Redguard) / (Shield equipped)
Argonian - Restoration Affinity - Reduce time to heavy attack with a Restoration staff
Dunmer - Ambidexterity - Increase Max magicka and stamina by X% with duel wielding
Nord - Two-Handed Weapon Expertise - Increase damage with Two hand by X%
High Elf - Destruction Talent - Increase damage with a Destruction staff by X%
Bosmer - Archery Expertise - Increase damage with a bow by X%
Khajiit - Medium Armor Expertise - Reduce roll/sneak/sprint cost by X% while in 5 medium Armour

JUST EXAMPLES

I think what is currently implemented for the Affinity passive's is pretty lame. I'd much rather see Race's be more powerful with specific weapons/armors.

Toc de Malsvi

Bosmer and Khajit have suffered from sharing the strongest ganking passive in the game, combined with stamina racial bonus'. This made them very comparable, Khajit Crit made it highest performing PVE stamina DPS, but in PVP that crit did not perform as well thus Bosmer had their role. Now with Max stamina on Khajit being 3% higher than Bosmer, there really isn't a good reason to play Bosmer over Khajit.

Kas

tbh i hoped all passives would fall into categories 1/2/3/4, race would be entirely cosmetic and you could unlock and change ANY of the passives throguh quests. too bad so little was changed and while argoians got a huge buff somewhat understandably), kahjit will dominate pve during that patch

James-Wayne

No Breton buff??

Makes sense to move to a Stamina Templar build now, I loved my Magicka Templar.

Neowit

I would honestly like to see the damage bonus from either Wood Elf or Kajiit be changed to something different. This is just because it feels superfluous that they're the same. I would suggest a poison/disease damage buff in Wood Elf, but Dragonknights and Nightblades are pulling plenty of damage as is.

susmitds

I think adding all elemental damage buff to Dunmer is overkill. They are already the top choice for PvE Magicka DPS.

HuawaSepp

Make the race only a cosmetic feature and let us choose the passives seperately.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

suggestion, change some of the passives to where they are useful after you hit the cp cap, i mean the 1percent extra xp in altmer might seem nice, but eventually it will be useless

Shadesofkin

susmitds wrote: »

I think adding all elemental damage buff to Dunmer is overkill. They are already the top choice for PvE Magicka DPS.

shush you! Besides, Altmer get the same thing just more evenly.

Burning_Talons

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Racial Passive balance changes coming with Update 11. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• What do you think about the changes?
• Are there any that you feel are too strong compared to the others? Too weak?
• Did you encounter any issues with the new Racial Passive changes?
  
• Are the changes going to make you change your character's race? If so, why?
• Are the changes going to encourage you to adjust your current build? If so, how?

I smell an agenda

dpencil

What do you think about the changes?

Argonian - Some extra magic is nice. The healing done passive is very good for healers but not so good for tanks.
Suggestion: Keep healing received as well as healing done, and adjust values accordingly.

Breton - Did the dev team consider the impact of passive AP gain on the PVP leaderboards? 1% isn't much, but it is something and has the potential to make people feel like Bretons are getting an unfair advantage.
Suggestion: Rethink this passive to something less controversial. Maybe a 1% increased chance on rare loot drops. I also think that if AP gain has to stay in, it should go on the Imperial. It makes more sense lore-wise and also makes more sense for a pay-to-play class to have this kind of perk.

Dunmer - "Ashlander" is not a good name and this trait is very poor. There is no utility to it whatsoever, unlike swimming faster or longer food/drink duration. Although those other traits are very small they at least have a some real utility. This passive should go back to the drawing board. The Destructive Ancestory is nice to get the remaining destro elements, but should be 1/2/3% instead of 0/1/2%.
Suggestion: Buff Destructive Ancestory 1% and rework Ashlander. Maybe "Dark Eyed" - Increase the distance you can detect cloaked enemies by 2 meters, and decrease your own detection radius by 2 meters.

High Elf - Excellent trait, probably the strongest passive of all since it will apply to CP gain as well. Less problematic than AP gain.
Suggestion: Include "Magic Damage" in the magic affinity passive, just like how the CP star lumps them together. There should be at least one class wit this. If not, High Elf, give it to the Breton.

Imperial - The Diplomat trait is fine in itself and could stay on the Imperial, but refer to my comments about Breton.
Suggestion: Give Imperials either 1% AP gain or 1% rare loot drop increase and give 1% gold to Bretons.

Khajiit - Cutpurse is ok, I think 10% would be more attractive than 5% and still not be game-breaking. The Robust Constitution passive did not need to be changed, though. As others have said Khajiit are already top stamina dps. They do not need more max stamina.
Suggestion: Switch Khajiit passive with Wood Elf (cat fall damage decrease makes much more sense). Increase pickpocket chance to 10%, whoever gets it. Leave Robust Constitution the way it was or just give it a little extra stamina regen.

Nord, Orc, Redguard - Fine with these, can't really speak to them as I don't have or know much about these races' gameplay and what has been lacking.

Wood Elf - As stated above, I think they should get the pickpocket perk and Khajiit get the fall damage one.

Do these changes make you want to switch races?

I have a lowbie Wood Elf Stam Nightblade because that seemed to be the more suggested race. These changes make me feel like Khajiit has a lot more going for it. So if I was going to do a race change, I might do that.

I also have a lowbie Argonian Mag Templar healer which I made long ago, then got discouraged because I found out they weren't very good healers anymore. So yay! I'll have to get back to leveling him.

My main High Elf Mag Sorc is fine with his race, but wants some love for his class.

Shadesofkin

[*] What do you think about the changes? I like every single one of them.

[*] Are there any that you feel are too strong compared to the others? Too weak? AP gain is weird, and that feels like it's an odd advantage to give that might be too much.

[*] Did you encounter any issues with the new Racial Passive changes? None So Far

[*] Are the changes going to make you change your character's race? If so, why? Not even a little, all my characters benefited directly from the changes in some small way.

[*] Are the changes going to encourage you to adjust your current build? If so, how? I might be more willing to wear the Overwhelming Surge set on my Dunmer now instead of my Altmer.

ADarklore

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bosmer and Khajit have suffered from sharing the strongest ganking passive in the game, combined with stamina racial bonus'. This made them very comparable, Khajit Crit made it highest performing PVE stamina DPS, but in PVP that crit did not perform as well thus Bosmer had their role. Now with Max stamina on Khajit being 3% higher than Bosmer, there really isn't a good reason to play Bosmer over Khajit.

Yes, because everyone only picks a race because of the passives and doesn't care about running around with a flapping tail and looking like a cat. Not everyone is a min/maxer... and it makes me wonder what their own data-mining shows as the most popular race in ESO?!? Perhaps they've seen an imbalance and are adjusting some racials accordingly.

Neowit

dpencil wrote: »

Breton - Did the dev team consider the impact of passive AP gain on the PVP leaderboards? 1% isn't much, but it is something and has the potential to make people feel like Bretons are getting an unfair advantage.
Suggestion: Rethink this passive to something less controversial.

Absolutely correct here. No passive should give even the slightest advantage at getting emperor.

NBrookus

As a magicka race, Bretons are very weak now. Take back the 1% AP bonus and give us a small boost to spell damage or spell crit.

dodgehopper_ESO

I personally wish on Argonian they had given us stealthy, boosted our regeneration, etc. I'm not sure I am so happy about the boosted healing and losing our loss in healing received. This completely changes what this race was and is about purely because people misread the tooltip from the getgo. The bad part about healing received was that it was a tanking trait. It would be like removing nord mitigation and replacing with +to heals. I feel like two of the large elements of what drew me to playing an argonian nightblade are slipping. Seriously ZoS where is the sense that this race is good at guerilla warfare? I still think doing something unique with Argonians and making them the only race with potent regeneration in all fields would have been a really cool way to go about things. I'll be blunt here, I didn't make my Argonian Nightblade to be a healer, I made him to be a shadowscale. I'm sorry I don't envision a shadowscale waving a restoration staff and healing the team. He should be wielding a longspear (which granted we don't have), bow, tomhawks, daggers, etc and jumping from the shadows (or mud/bogs) with swiftly deadly attacks, probably poisoned/diseased ones at that. Currently the way the rules are he was designed to be a tanky nightblade. Now the rules change really push him into being a healer (he'll get less received health). I reckon what should have happened is to display the diversity of the race they should have given across the board regeneration (health/stam/magic). In this way the historic view of the different flavors of lizard folk could be portrayed and useful.

Dark Elves on the other hand seem more awesome than ever, yay for my Telvanni character. I agree with some opinion that perhaps spells with raw magic power could see greater bonuses from the Altmer or Bretons though.

Orc is looking better than ever, and more like what I reckoned an Argonian would be.

The loss in health regeneration is probably going to irk players who had 30% Robust a while back. I can understand the line of thinking that moved this, but I suspect Khajiit tanks might be a little miffed.

All of these changes are great, but I really think you might consider offering us templates for each race that suited the following: Mag Dps/Heals, Tank, Stam DPS. If we had to choose between selection in each of these areas, perhaps this would open up more races to the masses. Its just a thought. This might balance the 'play how you want' with 'you take a huge hit for picking the character model you'd like to'. Each race could still be unique and have unique niches. I wish I could remember who to credit with this idea, but its one I like.

I also think they need to get rid of the whole notion of percentage-based attribute bonuses. This is the alternate to creating different passives for each race-role. By making the bonuses from each race a static, level/CP-based number, you can be an Orc mage without diminishing the bonuses you get from being an Orc. At any regard these are my two solutions to a system that was tainted by a shift from overcharging/soft caps to no caps (which isn't exactly true, damage mitigation is still capped).

ADarklore

NBrookus wrote: »

As a magicka race, Bretons are very weak now. Take back the 1% AP bonus and give us a small boost to spell damage or spell crit.

Well thankfully you'll now be able to change your race to Altmer. But I do think that many Breton players may argue with you about them being very weak... in fact, I've read many statements on how Bretons make the best Magicka Templars... and as we all know, everyone complains about them and their 'Jesus Beam'.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Breton racials need to be looked at, they feel very underwhelming now compared to what other races are getting. A negligible cost reduction and spell resistance don't make Bretons particularly good at anything and other races' pasives outperform Breton's in all traditional magicka roles (heal and dps).

What is the reason people would like to pick a Breton? Here's a few suggestions:

1- Make Bretons excel at magic damage or spell damage. Giving a % increase to either of those stats (following part of Nifty's suggestion). Some people might complain this is not lore friendly, well, a pact between argonians and dunmer was not "lore friendly" until ESO launched either.... (this racial benefit magicka templar, magicka NBs and PVP sorcs).

2- Make Bretons excel at converting damage taken into magic damage or spell damage. In line with this new "opportunist" tittle and similar to how heavy armor passives work. It can either be any damage, or just magic and/or elemental damage. This can be more lore friendly to those lore purists in terms of using Breton's natural spell resistance in their favor. (this racial benefit solo gameplay and PVP).

3- Make Bretons the kings of sustained magicka. Similar to previous suggestion, but in this case convert damage taken to a % or flat amount of magicka back or convert damage done to a % or flat amount of magicka back. With this suggestion the idea is making Bretons the ideal race for long fights relieving a bit the usual stress on resources, which was btw what Bretons did best pre 1.6 (this racial benefit raiding, PVP, especially for healer role).

dodgehopper_ESO

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Breton racials need to be looked at, they feel very underwhelming now compared to what other races are getting. A negligible cost reduction and spell resistance don't make Bretons particularly good at anything and other races' pasives outperform Breton's in all traditional magicka roles (heal and dps).

What is the reason people would like to pick a Breton? Here's a few suggestions:

1- Make Bretons excel at magic damage or spell damage. Giving a % increase to either of those stats (following part of Nifty's suggestion). Some people might complain this is not lore friendly, well, a pact between argonians and dunmer was not "lore friendly" until ESO launched either.... (this racial benefit magicka templar, magicka NBs and PVP sorcs).

2- Make Bretons excel at converting damage taken into magic damage or spell damage. In line with this new "opportunist" tittle and similar to how heavy armor passives work. It can either be any damage, or just magic and/or elemental damage. This can be more lore friendly to those lore purists in terms of using Breton's natural spell resistance in their favor. (this racial benefit solo gameplay and PVP).

3- Make Bretons the kings of sustained magicka. Similar to previous suggestion, but in this case convert damage taken to a % or flat amount of magicka back or convert damage done to a % or flat amount of magicka back. With this suggestion the idea is making Bretons the ideal race for long fights relieving a bit the usual stress on resources, which was btw what Bretons did best pre 1.6 (this racial benefit raiding, PVP, especially for healer role).

Bear in mind not everyone wants to win the DPS contest. Part of what is great about Breton is their spell resistance, and that should not change. (I think the poison/disease resistance on a Bosmer/Argonian however need serious looking at, the #'s are way way too low to even matter). Where I can agree with you is that the cost reduction from being Breton is not enough, and should either come with additional regeneration or cost reduction. When it comes to spells that do raw magicka in this game, a Breton is actually superior to a Dunmer, and equal with an Altmer. Its a moderate difference of 1% but still a difference.

Valencer

What do you think about the changes?
Nice to see some of the weaker races buffed up a bit to be competitive

Are there any that you feel are too strong compared to the others? Too weak?
Redguards are still going to be THE stamina meta for PvP now. Was hoping they would finally do something about Adrenaline Rush but it seems that this is the intended balance. There's just no passive like it that provides a huge boost to sustain through stacking max stamina.

Seen some concerns about Khajiit. It's maybe slightly much, but doesnt seem particularly overwhelming in a PvP setting.

Did you encounter any issues with the new Racial Passive changes?
-

Are the changes going to make you change your character's race? If so, why?
Currently an imperial stamina dragonknight. Seriously considering changing my race to redguard because redguards' adrenaline rush passive just makes them so much more sustainable. Easily 800+ "free" stamina regen from that passive alone if you have close to 40k max stamina and put constant pressure on a target. The Red Diamond passive is effectively irrelevant compared to this and after a decent amount of duelling I really don't think imperials are even remotely competitive to redguards in a PvP environment. For PvE, I think the free sustain is amazing for sustained DPS during tough encounters in trials and the like too.

Would really rather play my character the way I created her and have grown to love her but I don't think there's much of a choice here. At least I can change my race now, eh...

Are the changes going to encourage you to adjust your current build? If so, how?
Will switch to more offensive gear sets that provide more max stamina and weapon damage since I no longer need much recovery at all after the switch to redguard.

Toc de Malsvi

ADarklore wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bosmer and Khajit have suffered from sharing the strongest ganking passive in the game, combined with stamina racial bonus'. This made them very comparable, Khajit Crit made it highest performing PVE stamina DPS, but in PVP that crit did not perform as well thus Bosmer had their role. Now with Max stamina on Khajit being 3% higher than Bosmer, there really isn't a good reason to play Bosmer over Khajit.

Yes, because everyone only picks a race because of the passives and doesn't care about running around with a flapping tail and looking like a cat. Not everyone is a min/maxer... and it makes me wonder what their own data-mining shows as the most popular race in ESO?!? Perhaps they've seen an imbalance and are adjusting some racials accordingly.

Yes not everyone does but it only makes you feel worse when you play a Bosmer and know that you could perform your roles better if you just race changed..

WreckfulAbandon

I was under the impression that unlimited resources were a bad thing, why is Redguard Adrenaline Rush still in the game?

Other than that, pretty happy overall with changes, nothing too alarming other than Khajiit ganker potential getting better