Official Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Balance

Enodoc

Apologies if this has been mentioned already.

I seem to be getting 1% more XP on PTS for POI discovery and scripted events on a Breton character than I do on Live (haven't checked other XP sources yet); is that a bug? It supposedly should be High Elf that has a 1% XP bonus.

dodgehopper_ESO

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually Khajiit CURRENTLY has 20% health regen + 20% stam regen. Orc and Nord CURRENTLY have 30% Health regen.

Bosmer still has superior stamina regeneration than Khajiit 21% vs. 10%.

Guess I need a new bookmark... I show the Robust 10/20/30% health regen as applying to Khajiit, Orc, & Nord. And I see Bosmer Vigor as granting "Stamina Recovery by 3/6/9%" so didn't see the 21% you mention. Perhaps the site I read for those values is woefully out-of-date...

I'm having a lot of the same problems with info-sites on the game. When I was looking up information on Enchanting and Alchemy changes over the last six months (I've been too busy to really dig into these like I wanted) I realized that the sites I use to go to are woefully behind, and no longer useful. I was aware of hakeijo, but not of the potency stones and how they related.

Justice31st

Enodoc wrote: »

Apologies if this has been mentioned already.

I seem to be getting 1% more XP on PTS for POI discovery and scripted events on a Breton character than I do on Live (haven't checked other XP sources yet); is that a bug? It supposedly should be High Elf that has a 1% XP bonus.

Yes, those damn Breton! In lore, their ancestors were so crappy in magicka use, they weren't even born with a magicka dmg increase racial passive.

dodgehopper_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

If they did this I would change my Dodge Hopper character to a Nord in a heartbeat. Robust is significantly better than Red Diamond and this would instantly make Nords a better race than Imperials. I was always on the fence on the race choice between the two (he'd be a mix, as someone from the mountain country). They'd need to actually make Imperial Red Diamond worthwhile, and much more reliable like Adrenaline Rush.

Justice31st

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

If they did this I would change my Dodge Hopper character to a Nord in a heartbeat. Robust is significantly better than Red Diamond and this would instantly make Nords a better race than Imperials. I was always on the fence on the race choice between the two (he'd be a mix, as someone from the mountain country). They'd need to actually make Imperial Red Diamond worthwhile, and much more reliable like Adrenaline Rush.

It is basically giving anyone who paid for the Imperial Edition the middle finger.

dodgehopper_ESO

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

What do you think about the changes?

Overall I like them. Seems like most races have fairly equally compelling choices depending on the build.

Are there any that you feel are too strong compared to the others? Too weak?

Bosmer is too weak IMO. Stamina regen is shut off while moving in stealth, sprinting, and blocking, so it is not a particularly desirable a bonus. Bosmer not as good as the Redguard for resource sustain, and Khajiit is now more compelling for stealth attack/gank builds.

I vote for giving Bosmer 3% poison and disease damage.

Nord is also still a little weak.

I would vote for giving the Nord stamina cost reduction, or changing the way resistance is calculated so the Nord gets a true 6% damage reduction before other resistances are applied.

Did you encounter any issues with the new Racial Passive changes?

No.

Are the changes going to make you change your character's race? If so, why?

I am changing my Bosmer Nightblade to an Altmer. Bosmer's passives aren't particularly good for anything other than stamina based ganking, and I like the playstyle of a magicka nightblade better now anyway. I also have a Bosmer Sorcerer that I made for... reasons that I will be changing to a Khajiit or Altmer.

Are the changes going to encourage you to adjust your current build? If so, how?

My Nord Dragon Knight is the only character effected by the changes. I will keep him the same though. Since the changes won't effect how I use him as a tank.

Your comment on the Bosmer is what crushed my hopes of making a Bosmer DK Tank. I still argue that completely 100% shutting off stamina while blocking is a horrible decision, and has moved me away from playing the Tank role. I'd rather play something else more useful that can dodge roll or shield up, and not see my primary attack resource get drained with no means of recovery (outside of being a DK). I still think this is a bad decision and they should have found other ways to solve the issue of blocking.

CromulentForumID

Justice31st wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

If they did this I would change my Dodge Hopper character to a Nord in a heartbeat. Robust is significantly better than Red Diamond and this would instantly make Nords a better race than Imperials. I was always on the fence on the race choice between the two (he'd be a mix, as someone from the mountain country). They'd need to actually make Imperial Red Diamond worthwhile, and much more reliable like Adrenaline Rush.

It is basically giving anyone who paid for the Imperial Edition the middle finger.

How? The Imperial Edition allowed you to play as an Imperial, with a couple of other perks. Nowhere in that edition was it ever promised that Imperial would be the bestest race ever at "X."

Tevalaur

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually Khajiit CURRENTLY has 20% health regen + 20% stam regen. Orc and Nord CURRENTLY have 30% Health regen.

Bosmer still has superior stamina regeneration than Khajiit 21% vs. 10%.

Guess I need a new bookmark... I show the Robust 10/20/30% health regen as applying to Khajiit, Orc, & Nord. And I see Bosmer Vigor as granting "Stamina Recovery by 3/6/9%" so didn't see the 21% you mention. Perhaps the site I read for those values is woefully out-of-date...

I'm having a lot of the same problems with info-sites on the game. When I was looking up information on Enchanting and Alchemy changes over the last six months (I've been too busy to really dig into these like I wanted) I realized that the sites I use to go to are woefully behind, and no longer useful. I was aware of hakeijo, but not of the potency stones and how they related.

I can save you a few hours searching old patch notes (as I just did); I just rushed the page I was already working on and for which I was reading this forum thread: a new racial options page onto my guild's website (we previously had a link to what was apparently a woefully out-of-date outside resource).

We also have up-to-date and quite detailed guides on Enchanting and Alchemy that were publicized with Dark Brotherhood's changes and were very well-received by the community if you'd like to visit Sunshine Daydream's ESO website.

dodgehopper_ESO

Justice31st wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

If they did this I would change my Dodge Hopper character to a Nord in a heartbeat. Robust is significantly better than Red Diamond and this would instantly make Nords a better race than Imperials. I was always on the fence on the race choice between the two (he'd be a mix, as someone from the mountain country). They'd need to actually make Imperial Red Diamond worthwhile, and much more reliable like Adrenaline Rush.

It is basically giving anyone who paid for the Imperial Edition the middle finger.

It is kind of funny too. Imperials were always known as the 'lucky' 'diplomatic' 'intelligent' 'organized soldier' race. On the matter of Lucky, no race had them beat on this one by a long shot. The khajiit get a juicy crit bonus, but I personally think the crit bonus should have gone to Imperial (for magic/stamina though) to represent that good fortune. This would probably a hell of a lot more useful than Red Diamond too. Obviously I'm spitballing here. I think the attributes were proper more or less, since Imperials (when they're not getting fat from being so rich) are a pretty athletic bunch. At any regard, these are more musings on the topic and not any direct suggestion (please don't misunderstand that). Its just an observation on something which always seemed thematically off to me - but was in the realm of acceptable because the health/stam bonuses suited that sense of 'luck' for the race. I've got plenty other concerns about Argonians that go much deeper from a lore perspective.

dodgehopper_ESO

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually Khajiit CURRENTLY has 20% health regen + 20% stam regen. Orc and Nord CURRENTLY have 30% Health regen.

Bosmer still has superior stamina regeneration than Khajiit 21% vs. 10%.

Guess I need a new bookmark... I show the Robust 10/20/30% health regen as applying to Khajiit, Orc, & Nord. And I see Bosmer Vigor as granting "Stamina Recovery by 3/6/9%" so didn't see the 21% you mention. Perhaps the site I read for those values is woefully out-of-date...

I'm having a lot of the same problems with info-sites on the game. When I was looking up information on Enchanting and Alchemy changes over the last six months (I've been too busy to really dig into these like I wanted) I realized that the sites I use to go to are woefully behind, and no longer useful. I was aware of hakeijo, but not of the potency stones and how they related.

I can save you a few hours searching old patch notes (as I just did); I just rushed the page I was already working on and for which I was reading this forum thread: a new racial options page onto my guild's website (we previously had a link to what was apparently a woefully out-of-date outside resource).

We also have up-to-date and quite detailed guides on Enchanting and Alchemy that were publicized with Dark Brotherhood's changes and were very well-received by the community if you'd like to visit Sunshine Daydream's ESO website.

I knew about Sunshine-Daydream's site, I liked it when it came out, but I couldn't remember anything about it other than that person liked Grateful Dead. I couldn't remember the name of the site, but I did think they did an excellent job of it. I appreciate you bringing it back up because Google seems completely unaware.

rfennell_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

If they did this I would change my Dodge Hopper character to a Nord in a heartbeat. Robust is significantly better than Red Diamond and this would instantly make Nords a better race than Imperials. I was always on the fence on the race choice between the two (he'd be a mix, as someone from the mountain country). They'd need to actually make Imperial Red Diamond worthwhile, and much more reliable like Adrenaline Rush.

Justice31st wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

If they did this I would change my Dodge Hopper character to a Nord in a heartbeat. Robust is significantly better than Red Diamond and this would instantly make Nords a better race than Imperials. I was always on the fence on the race choice between the two (he'd be a mix, as someone from the mountain country). They'd need to actually make Imperial Red Diamond worthwhile, and much more reliable like Adrenaline Rush.

It is basically giving anyone who paid for the Imperial Edition the middle finger.

I suspect the problem is they don't even realize that red diamond heals for such low amounts you could say it's worthless.

Tevalaur

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually Khajiit CURRENTLY has 20% health regen + 20% stam regen. Orc and Nord CURRENTLY have 30% Health regen.

Bosmer still has superior stamina regeneration than Khajiit 21% vs. 10%.

Guess I need a new bookmark... I show the Robust 10/20/30% health regen as applying to Khajiit, Orc, & Nord. And I see Bosmer Vigor as granting "Stamina Recovery by 3/6/9%" so didn't see the 21% you mention. Perhaps the site I read for those values is woefully out-of-date...

I'm having a lot of the same problems with info-sites on the game. When I was looking up information on Enchanting and Alchemy changes over the last six months (I've been too busy to really dig into these like I wanted) I realized that the sites I use to go to are woefully behind, and no longer useful. I was aware of hakeijo, but not of the potency stones and how they related.

I can save you a few hours searching old patch notes (as I just did); I just rushed the page I was already working on and for which I was reading this forum thread: a new racial options page onto my guild's website (we previously had a link to what was apparently a woefully out-of-date outside resource).

We also have up-to-date and quite detailed guides on Enchanting and Alchemy that were publicized with Dark Brotherhood's changes and were very well-received by the community if you'd like to visit Sunshine Daydream's ESO website.

I knew about Sunshine-Daydream's site, I liked it when it came out, but I couldn't remember anything about it other than that person liked Grateful Dead. I couldn't remember the name of the site, but I did think they did an excellent job of it. I appreciate you bringing it back up because Google seems completely unaware.

Thank you for the compliments, that's all my work I'm not sure why Google's not showing our site for you as they do show up early in the list when I search on my pc (probably thanks to how frequently they know I access the site in Chrome as I create/modify the pages, lol).

dodgehopper_ESO

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually Khajiit CURRENTLY has 20% health regen + 20% stam regen. Orc and Nord CURRENTLY have 30% Health regen.

Bosmer still has superior stamina regeneration than Khajiit 21% vs. 10%.

Guess I need a new bookmark... I show the Robust 10/20/30% health regen as applying to Khajiit, Orc, & Nord. And I see Bosmer Vigor as granting "Stamina Recovery by 3/6/9%" so didn't see the 21% you mention. Perhaps the site I read for those values is woefully out-of-date...

I'm having a lot of the same problems with info-sites on the game. When I was looking up information on Enchanting and Alchemy changes over the last six months (I've been too busy to really dig into these like I wanted) I realized that the sites I use to go to are woefully behind, and no longer useful. I was aware of hakeijo, but not of the potency stones and how they related.

I can save you a few hours searching old patch notes (as I just did); I just rushed the page I was already working on and for which I was reading this forum thread: a new racial options page onto my guild's website (we previously had a link to what was apparently a woefully out-of-date outside resource).

We also have up-to-date and quite detailed guides on Enchanting and Alchemy that were publicized with Dark Brotherhood's changes and were very well-received by the community if you'd like to visit Sunshine Daydream's ESO website.

I knew about Sunshine-Daydream's site, I liked it when it came out, but I couldn't remember anything about it other than that person liked Grateful Dead. I couldn't remember the name of the site, but I did think they did an excellent job of it. I appreciate you bringing it back up because Google seems completely unaware.

Thank you for the compliments, that's all my work I'm not sure why Google's not showing our site for you as they do show up early in the list when I search on my pc (probably thanks to how frequently they know I access the site in Chrome as I create/modify the pages, lol).

@Tevalaur your site caught my attention initially because of the great information you did on alchemy (Something at the time I knew a lot about). Right now my knowledge on poisons is pretty weak, and I was looking up the sunshine daydream site because I knew it had good information on poisons and how they work. While its probably a mistake I have been stockpiling my poison materials to give myself proper time to think about what poisons I want to use and why, particularly since a lot of my favored characters are undergoing some changes and changes in strategy.

The changes to Argonian are really doing my head in here. I'm somewhat at the point of considering my racial passives as worthless, apart from that occassional burst of attribute regeneration when I pop a potion. I miss my old potion synergy build on my Argo/Nb. It was niche but I understand it. Right now I feel like I'll be playing an Altmer stamina build, but I refuse to change the concept just because the prevailing rules of the game keep changing on me. Thematically I think I'm on good ground with the character. The ZoS development team really should consider making all racial passives a static bonus. This would make people feel a lot more free to play a Weapon wielding Altmer for instance, and not completely kill their build. When the +magic is a flat #, when the +magic regen is a flat #, it makes it easier to work the build toward what you want ultimately. As it stands the races are just being promoted heavily to go a specific way, and I think that is a real shame, and doesn't do the IP justice. I'm beseeching you to consider this @Wrobel and I do not normally bring your name up, in large part because I don't want to be annoying. I think this is an issue worthy of attention though, and could make your job significantly easier in balancing the races.

Xsorus

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Give Bosmer 4% Ranged Damage Bonus similar to Orcs 4% melee Bonus
Bump their stam to 6%/3% Health

Drop Khajitt to 3% stamina Bonus + 20% health Recovery

Bump Argonian to 6% magicka bonus + 10% Stealth Attacks
Change heal bonus to 6% received and 6% done.

Change Nord to 9%health/6% Stamina/6% Magicka Bonus; This gives it a similar bonus to Imperial, but actually unique in that its 3 stats..it also makes them not just a shittier Imperial.

Change Breton Cost Reduction to 12%; This makes them basically the Best Heavy Armor wearer for Magicka users

If they did this I would change my Dodge Hopper character to a Nord in a heartbeat. Robust is significantly better than Red Diamond and this would instantly make Nords a better race than Imperials. I was always on the fence on the race choice between the two (he'd be a mix, as someone from the mountain country). They'd need to actually make Imperial Red Diamond worthwhile, and much more reliable like Adrenaline Rush.

Robust is ass mostly; if you're a tank you're looking at 3% damage mitigation usually..id much rather have a passive heal in both pve and pvp...

Helluin

Some changements seem to be made to force players to change race even more.
Several races should be tuned down and other ones improved.

Helluin wrote: »

It's a quite unrequired buff to Khajiit and detached from the the current PvE situation.
Bosmer should have deserved a bonus to ranged attacks as masters of bow or at least 3% more stamina.
Also Nord and Orcs could have been better.

Breton should get something else instead of 1% more AP and something to be equal to other magicka races.

Silver_Strider

I'm fine with the Argonian changes.
Be it a tank or DPS, I never felt comfortable leaving not having a self heal on my bar (got screwed over too many times for that s***) and since that 9% healing received was often times just causing overhealing to occur more often than wanted, it really isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It was nice but honestly, most encounters were done so quickly that the extra healing really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The extra magic doesn't mean much for my Stamblade but my Magblade will greatly appreciate the 3% extra magic (although I wish it was at least 6% or a 3% to stamina too) as now my attacks deal more damage and my offheals are all the stronger for it, same goes for my Sap Tank.

I honestly think Khajiit don't need more damage. They are already great DPS and giving them even more damage will just make them hands down the best with no real equal, at least in PvE. If anything, I think Bosmer should have gotten the increase to stamina as their measly little 3% stamina isn't quite up to snuff in either PVP or PVE content. Have better sustain due primarily to Adrenaline rush, making the 21% stamina regen on Bosmer meh at best and if Khajiit get that 6% stamina, they'll have even more of an advantage over Bosmer as now they have a greater stamina pool, thus increasing their base damage higher than a Bosmer.

Nords needed that extra Stamina and I'm fine with the loss of a little health regen for it. Tanks might disagree but at least the stamina is useful for tanks too so it isn't all negative.

Orcs change was not what they needed. Lowering their health regen and replacing it with an alternative form of health recovery doesn't help them at all as the race is fundamentally unchanged. Imperial and Nords will still outperform them as tanks due to their larger health pools as well as their other passives that help with tanking and as far as Stamina DPS go, they'll continue to be average at best. I say let Orcs keep their Health Regen as is and maybe boost there max Health and/or Stamina to 9% instead. They'll be harder hitting tanks than Nords but will lack the mitigation of Nords so it should balance out.

Dunmer change is weird. I know Dunmer have as much as a magical ancestry as Altmer but this change is sort of more in favor of Dunmer overtaking Altmer main thing as best Magic users in ES lore. If they maybe buff Altmer damage numbers to by 5% better at Elemental Damage than the current 4%, it might keep the races different enough without one over taking the other.

Either give Bretons a higher % in cost reduction or add on a 1/2/3% spell crit buff to their Spell resistance stat so Bretons are still a worthwhile race for magic builds. ATM, there is no real reason to role a Breton over an Altmer as the extra Regen on Altmer makes them have greater sustain than a Breton and Altmer already do more damage due to their elemental passive so making it so Breton has greater sustain than an Alter would be a good alternative to the current set up. The Spell crit buff would also work in that it would make it so Bretons could do comparable damage to Altmer without being too grossly overpowered

Junkogen

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I'm fine with the Argonian changes.
Be it a tank or DPS, I never felt comfortable leaving not having a self heal on my bar (got screwed over too many times for that s***) and since that 9% healing received was often times just causing overhealing to occur more often than wanted, it really isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It was nice but honestly, most encounters were done so quickly that the extra healing really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The extra magic doesn't mean much for my Stamblade but my Magblade will greatly appreciate the 3% extra magic (although I wish it was at least 6% or a 3% to stamina too) as now my attacks deal more damage and my offheals are all the stronger for it, same goes for my Sap Tank.

As you said, they should have gotten at least 6% in max magicka. If that means less healing given, then so be it. As it is now, Argonians are too pidgeonholed as healers, which isn't good. There aren't many choices for magicka as it is. If Argonians are to be the much needed fourth option, then they need at least 6% to be competitive.

PlagueMonk

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

For starters yes, the Stamblade community. This patch will nerf far more than it will benefit in any appreciable way.

A nerf (loss of 9% healing received)
- Any stamina player
- Any group player
- Any health potion drinker
- Any magicka non-healer

A slight bonus (+3% magicka which might as well be nothing)
- Any magicka player

A slight bonus (+9% healing)
- Anyone who off/self heals (like Stamina Vigor)

A real bonus (+9% to healing)
- Any magicka healer
- (possibly any sap tank type but hasn't been tested)


There are some give and takes from this and you can belong to multiple categories:

For example I'm a stamblade with vigor so I get a slight bonuses because I can personally heal for more now BUT that also means my health potions won't work as well (a push). But when grouping I now lose 9% of my healing. The pittance of extra magicka is not even worth mentioning (I will gain a WHOLE 330 more mag). If they gave us a 10% mag boost like some other races then I might switch to a magblade but 3% is not even worth the effort.

So basically Non-Healer Argonians will be weaker in groups because we will be harder to keep healthy. We are already a less desirable race because we excel at nothing so to make this change is a negative in general unless you turn healer.

Of course MANY have pointed out that even the worst healer is still doing a good job because of the ability to easily over heal so now Argonians will be better at over healing everyone? /sigh

I am still baffled as to WHY Zenimax insists Argonians are renown healers when lore through ALL of the ES games has shown us historically to be thieves, assassins (we even have our OWN assassin name!), scouts, skirmishers, experts at guerrilla warfare, alchemists, etc. Even the magic skills are oriented towards those choices with mysticism and Illusion.

If they are going to ignore the lore WHY is it always the Argonians? Why not Nord fire mages or High Elf Stamina Tanks?! I am tired of being screwed at each and every turn by a company who seemingly is out to ***** over Argonians. Is the company all run by Dark Elves?!

Addendum....Just thought I would visit the ESO website and guess what the Argonian race description says? (straight from the site)

Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers

Not a single word about being Tamriel's greatest healers. Where are these supposed expert abilities manifesting in our racials Zenimax?

Junkogen

PlagueMonk wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

For starters yes, the Stamblade community. This patch will nerf far more than it will benefit in any appreciable way.

A nerf (loss of 9% healing received)
- Any stamina player
- Any group player
- Any health potion drinker
- Any magicka non-healer

A slight bonus (+3% magicka which might as well be nothing)
- Any magicka player

A slight bonus (+9% healing)
- Anyone who off/self heals (like Stamina Vigor)

A real bonus (+9% to healing)
- Any magicka healer
- (possibly any sap tank type but hasn't been tested)


There are some give and takes from this and you can belong to multiple categories:

For example I'm a stamblade with vigor so I get a slight bonuses because I can personally heal for more now BUT that also means my health potions won't work as well (a push). But when grouping I now lose 9% of my healing. The pittance of extra magicka is not even worth mentioning (I will gain a WHOLE 330 more mag). If they gave us a 10% mag boost like some other races then I might switch to a magblade but 3% is not even worth the effort.

So basically Non-Healer Argonians will be weaker in groups because we will be harder to keep healthy. We are already a less desirable race because we excel at nothing so to make this change is a negative in general unless you turn healer.

Of course MANY have pointed out that even the worst healer is still doing a good job because of the ability to easily over heal so now Argonians will be better at over healing everyone? /sigh

I am still baffled as to WHY Zenimax insists Argonians are renown healers when lore through ALL of the ES games has shown us historically to be thieves, assassins (we even have our OWN assassin name!), scouts, skirmishers, experts at guerrilla warfare, alchemists, etc. Even the magic skills are oriented towards those choices with mysticism and Illusion.

If they are going to ignore the lore WHY is it always the Argonians? Why not Nord fire mages or High Elf Stamina Tanks?! I am tired of being screwed at each and every turn by a company who seemingly is out to ***** over Argonians. Is the company all run by Dark Elves?!

^QFT

Preach, brother!

Silver_Strider

PlagueMonk wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

For starters yes, the Stamblade community. This patch will nerf far more than it will benefit in any appreciable way.

A nerf (loss of 9% healing received)
- Any stamina player
- Any group player
- Any health potion drinker
- Any magicka non-healer

A slight bonus (+3% magicka which might as well be nothing)
- Any magicka player

A slight bonus (+9% healing)
- Anyone who off/self heals (like Stamina Vigor)

A real bonus (+9% to healing)
- Any magicka healer
- (possibly any sap tank type but hasn't been tested)


There are some give and takes from this and you can belong to multiple categories:

For example I'm a stamblade with vigor so I get a slight bonuses because I can personally heal for more now BUT that also means my health potions won't work as well (a push). But when grouping I now lose 9% of my healing. The pittance of extra magicka is not even worth mentioning (I will gain a WHOLE 330 more mag). If they gave us a 10% mag boost like some other races then I might switch to a magblade but 3% is not even worth the effort.

So basically Non-Healer Argonians will be weaker in groups because we will be harder to keep healthy. We are already a less desirable race because we excel at nothing so to make this change is a negative in general unless you turn healer.

Of course MANY have pointed out that even the worst healer is still doing a good job because of the ability to easily over heal so now Argonians will be better at over healing everyone? /sigh

I am still baffled as to WHY Zenimax insists Argonians are renown healers when lore through ALL of the ES games has shown us historically to be thieves, assassins (we even have our OWN assassin name!), scouts, skirmishers, experts at guerrilla warfare, alchemists, etc. Even the magic skills are oriented towards those choices with mysticism and Illusion.

If they are going to ignore the lore WHY is it always the Argonians? Why not Nord fire mages or High Elf Stamina Tanks?! I am tired of being screwed at each and every turn by a company who seemingly is out to ***** over Argonians. Is the company all run by Dark Elves?!

Well, since it's so easy to overheal anyways, does it honestly matter if we lose out on 9% extra healing received? It only ever amounted to 1-2k extra on heals for the most part and that would only ever make up for the fact that we would have more health than most other races anyways. Regardless, I wouldn't say we are in any worse a position we've been in since the game started.

Lore wise, Argonian HAVE been known to be renowned Healers as well as everything you stated so it isn't entirely lore breaking to make them somewhat more competent healers, although I do wish the rest of their Lore would be equally represented, either thru a stealth bonus akin to Bosmer/Khajiit, Poison/Disease Damage, extra stamina or something along those lines.

Protheos

In my opinion the stamina meta is still a big thing. Redguards are kinda the meta right now. Are they getting nerfed? No.
Instead one of the other potential good stamina races (khajiit) is getting buffed which will make them comparable. So what about bosmer and imperial? Less fall damage and and more gold - seriously?!
To make them comparable aswell there 2 options in my opinion: nerf the other 2 ones or buff them
Nerfing them (especially thinking about redguars right now) would probably destroy many common builds and of course annoy people who actual playing this race. I'd prefer to slightly buff bosmers and imperials instead, like increasing the bosmers max. stamina to 6, maybe 9%(?), increasing their weapon damage by 3-5% or to make it just more lorefriendly to increase their attack speed and for imperials to either make "red diamont" compareable to "adrenaline rush" (maybe half health half stamina) or increase just their stamina (and maybe also health) recovery sligthy.

Footfalls

PlagueMonk wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

For starters yes, the Stamblade community. This patch will nerf far more than it will benefit in any appreciable way.

A nerf (loss of 9% healing received)
- Any stamina player
- Any group player
- Any health potion drinker
- Any magicka non-healer

A slight bonus (+3% magicka which might as well be nothing)
- Any magicka player

A slight bonus (+9% healing)
- Anyone who off/self heals (like Stamina Vigor)

A real bonus (+9% to healing)
- Any magicka healer
- (possibly any sap tank type but hasn't been tested)


There are some give and takes from this and you can belong to multiple categories:

For example I'm a stamblade with vigor so I get a slight bonuses because I can personally heal for more now BUT that also means my health potions won't work as well (a push). But when grouping I now lose 9% of my healing. The pittance of extra magicka is not even worth mentioning (I will gain a WHOLE 330 more mag). If they gave us a 10% mag boost like some other races then I might switch to a magblade but 3% is not even worth the effort.

So basically Non-Healer Argonians will be weaker in groups because we will be harder to keep healthy. We are already a less desirable race because we excel at nothing so to make this change is a negative in general unless you turn healer.

Of course MANY have pointed out that even the worst healer is still doing a good job because of the ability to easily over heal so now Argonians will be better at over healing everyone? /sigh

I am still baffled as to WHY Zenimax insists Argonians are renown healers when lore through ALL of the ES games has shown us historically to be thieves, assassins (we even have our OWN assassin name!), scouts, skirmishers, experts at guerrilla warfare, alchemists, etc. Even the magic skills are oriented towards those choices with mysticism and Illusion.

If they are going to ignore the lore WHY is it always the Argonians? Why not Nord fire mages or High Elf Stamina Tanks?! I am tired of being screwed at each and every turn by a company who seemingly is out to ***** over Argonians. Is the company all run by Dark Elves?!

Addendum....Just thought I would visit the ESO website and guess what the Argonian race description says? (straight from the site)

Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers

Not a single word about being Tamriel's greatest healers. Where are these supposed expert abilities manifesting in our racials Zenimax?

Eloquently put, these are my feelings exactly.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

Unfortunately the Argonian tank community are far from happy.

The um, Argonian NB community are on the outraged side as well. (and for good reason)

If you are not an Argonian healer come this patch you will get a HUGE assed nerf.

@PlagueMonk do you mean the Argonian stamblade community? It seems to me the max magicka is a straight buff to mageblades and the healing received / done change seems like a wash for mageblades unless they are tanking. Admittedly my Argonian mageblade is still in level 3 mule mode so I may be missing something.

For starters yes, the Stamblade community. This patch will nerf far more than it will benefit in any appreciable way.

A nerf (loss of 9% healing received)
- Any stamina player
- Any group player
- Any health potion drinker
- Any magicka non-healer

A slight bonus (+3% magicka which might as well be nothing)
- Any magicka player

A slight bonus (+9% healing)
- Anyone who off/self heals (like Stamina Vigor)

A real bonus (+9% to healing)
- Any magicka healer
- (possibly any sap tank type but hasn't been tested)


There are some give and takes from this and you can belong to multiple categories:

For example I'm a stamblade with vigor so I get a slight bonuses because I can personally heal for more now BUT that also means my health potions won't work as well (a push). But when grouping I now lose 9% of my healing. The pittance of extra magicka is not even worth mentioning (I will gain a WHOLE 330 more mag). If they gave us a 10% mag boost like some other races then I might switch to a magblade but 3% is not even worth the effort.

So basically Non-Healer Argonians will be weaker in groups because we will be harder to keep healthy. We are already a less desirable race because we excel at nothing so to make this change is a negative in general unless you turn healer.

Of course MANY have pointed out that even the worst healer is still doing a good job because of the ability to easily over heal so now Argonians will be better at over healing everyone? /sigh

I am still baffled as to WHY Zenimax insists Argonians are renown healers when lore through ALL of the ES games has shown us historically to be thieves, assassins (we even have our OWN assassin name!), scouts, skirmishers, experts at guerrilla warfare, alchemists, etc. Even the magic skills are oriented towards those choices with mysticism and Illusion.

If they are going to ignore the lore WHY is it always the Argonians? Why not Nord fire mages or High Elf Stamina Tanks?! I am tired of being screwed at each and every turn by a company who seemingly is out to ***** over Argonians. Is the company all run by Dark Elves?!

Well, since it's so easy to overheal anyways, does it honestly matter if we lose out on 9% extra healing received? It only ever amounted to 1-2k extra on heals for the most part and that would only ever make up for the fact that we would have more health than most other races anyways. Regardless, I wouldn't say we are in any worse a position we've been in since the game started.

Lore wise, Argonian HAVE been known to be renowned Healers as well as everything you stated so it isn't entirely lore breaking to make them somewhat more competent healers, although I do wish the rest of their Lore would be equally represented, either thru a stealth bonus akin to Bosmer/Khajiit, Poison/Disease Damage, extra stamina or something along those lines.

Please, enlighten me where exactly in the lore are Argonians noted as being excellent healers?

Arato

Most self heals that people take I don't think are affected by outgoing healing. I don't think dragonblood or sap or burning embers are at least, since those are based on a % life missing or a % damage done, rather than raw health restore.

Code2501

Footfalls wrote: »

Please, enlighten me where exactly in the lore are Argonians noted as being excellent healers?

Your right, they have always been the arch typical Nightblades, with emphasis on agility, speed, alchemy and some magical talent. Problem is, Zenimax have screwed themselves into a corner when it comes to Hybrids (Mag/Stam) so it makes it hard to make something that mixes both desirable in the meta.
Like wise from an alliance perspective, they need to ensure it brings something to the faction that Dunmer and Nord don't add.

Jar_Ek

I'm with @PlagueMonk on this wrt Argonians, and I suspect those that believe that healing done is better or equivalent to healing received simply run healers or solo all the time.

Argonians still have a terrible potion passive (45s cd), still have the most fluff passive (swim speed) and now have healing done.

So now only healers and rp will even consider Argonians - certainly not Tanks or dps.

My personal preference would be for zos to:
1. Change the potion passive such that it has an effect on cooldowns of potions on top of the current effect.
2. Add a secondary effect to swim speed, such as take 25% less damage whilst swimming (ie when you cannot fight / heal)
3. Change quick to mend to be 5% to both healing done and received (compromise)
4. Reduce max health to 6% and remove max magicka and instead provide a 10% across the board regeneration bonus.
5. Add a shadowscale passive but how you'd fit that in I have no idea.

So passives would be:
1. Restoration staff leveling bonus + swim speed and damage reduction whilst swimming
2. Recover 12% of max stats on potion use and reduce potion cooldown by 15s (or maybe 9s)
3. 6% max health, poison/disease resistance, and 10% stat regeneration bonus.
4. Increase healing done and received by 5% each

SoulKing32

Very disappointed with the Nord passives. They are the worst out of all races - the stamina bonus is nice but its not enough to make them competitive.

Memnock

Guys bretons need some love for their passives as well. The % increase in pvp xp gain is... questionble compared to the other 2 magika oriented races.

There are some threads going around on in this section that talk about having magika damage passive added into the game , maybe bretons could have it ?

My suggestion was something like this : Bretons get a % increase in their damage done , basically a small version of the Shadow mundus stone.

I would really like to have something that is used throughout the entirety of the game not just the leveling portion. Either of the above suggestions could be implemented instead of the light armor bonus , which i find pointless after a bit of time invested in your character, or the alternative would be to rethink the pvp xp gain and replace it with something that is useful in both aspects of the game.

Arato

SoulKing32 wrote: »

Very disappointed with the Nord passives. They are the worst out of all races - the stamina bonus is nice but its not enough to make them competitive.

They're one of the best tank races if not the best.

The races that are really underwhelming are orc and bosmer, arguably breton.

The other races..

Best Magicka DPS: Altmer, Dunmer
Best Healer: Argonian, some may argue Breton
Best Stam DPS: Khajiit, Redguard
Best Tank: Imperial, Nord

I mean, sorry you looked at Nord's racials and somehow thought it'd make a good Stam or Magicka DPS and have been disappointed by the outcome of that decision, but its passives have always leaned more towards tank. Health bonus, health regen bonus, incoming damage reduction, and now a MODERATE stam bonus

None of those passives ever screamed DPS to me.

LadyNalcarya

@Silver_Strider wrote: »

Lore wise, Argonian HAVE been known to be renowned Healers as well as everything you stated so it isn't entirely lore breaking to make them somewhat more competent healers, although I do wish the rest of their Lore would be equally represented, either thru a stealth bonus akin to Bosmer/Khajiit, Poison/Disease Damage, extra stamina or something along those lines.

Proof pls?
Not that they have healers (any race has), but that theyre better in that than other races.

Solariken

Because Imperials are locked behind a paywall, there should be a very clear and desirable benefit for choosing them over other races. That benefit should NOT be a raw power advantage over other races, as many players would perceive this as “pay-to-win.” I believe the Imperial benefit should be that they are synergistic with the greatest variety of character builds and perform competitively in the greatest variety of situations. Additionally, they should be among the most conducive to switching your character between magicka and stamina specializations. I believe this is consistent with lore, as Imperials are not generally the biggest, strongest, fastest, most adept with magic, etc when compared to other races of Tamriel but they are emulous with all. Imperial physique is rooted in a solid foundation of legion basic training. Please consider this idea:

Red Diamond
Max health is increased by 3/6/9%. Melee attacks have a 10% chance to restore 2/4/6% of max health over 3 seconds.

Legionnaire
Max stamina is increased by 3/6/9%. Critical strikes with weapon attacks have a 10% chance to restore 2/4/6% of max stamina over 3 seconds.

Arcane Tenacity
Max magicka is increased by 3/6/9%. Spells causing damage or healing over time have a 10% chance to restore 2/4/6% of max magicka over 3 seconds.


The restorative portion of each passive offers sustain that is subject to RNG in the spirit of the current Red Diamond. The procs are strong but situational and overall slightly weaker than a direct boost to recovery stats that other races enjoy. They do not stack or directly interact with your character's recovery stats and are not prone to runaway multiplicative boost. The 3 second duration is also important because it prevents rapid fire procs - if additional procs occur during the 3 seconds, the duration is simply refreshed. These restorative passives scale nicely with the player's build and are very adaptive and useful to a huge number of builds.

If you want to be the BEST tank, pick another race. If you want to be BEST DPS, pick another race. If you want to be the BEST healer, pick another race. But if you want to have the most options and be able to perform any role respectably well, pick Imperial.

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_KNowak @ZOS_JessicaFolsom


EDIT - if any readers are prone to being blinded by arbitrary numbers, please view as letter variables:

Red Diamond
Max health is increased by X/2X/3X%. Melee attacks have a 10% chance to restore Y/2Y/3Y% of max health over Z seconds.

Legionnaire
Max stamina is increased by X/2X/3X%. Critical strikes with weapon attacks have a 10% chance to restore Y/2Y/3Y% of max stamina over Z seconds.

Arcane Tenacity
Max magicka is increased by X/2X/3X%. Spells causing damage or healing over time have a 10% chance to restore Y/2Y/3Y% of max magicka over Z seconds.