Official Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Balance

Xsorus

Solariken wrote: »

I only have two qualms with the changes:

First, I really hope you reconsider/change the Breton AP bonus - this affects leaderboards and emperorship. No player should have an AP advantage.

Second, I am very surprised (and disappointed) that Red Diamond was not buffed for Imperials. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a terrible passive, but it is very situational and relatively weak compared to the Nord incoming damage reduction or the Orc bundle, for example. I hope you evaluate RD and perhaps add something to it - a 1/2/3% incoming damage reduction or a small damage proc or reduced break free cost, or anything really. Again, it's not terrible, just very lackluster.

Ummmm...RD is absolutely superior to the Nord Damage Reduction...its not even close....

Nord Damage Reduction does not scale..if you're at Cap Resist it reduces damage by like 1%..which is nothing..

Mimeq

oh, and i also would like to the 3rd Imperial passive, "Red diamond" to increase max magicka by 4/7/10% (and maybe nerf "Tough" to 4/7/10% of max hp instead of 4/8/12%), so now that would make imperials a jack-of-all-trades, i would like to play with an imperial sorc instead of relying on being an altmer or breton, i don't think that would be lore breaking, Abnur Tharn is an amazing sorcerer. lol

ListerJMC

A few things off the bat:

- To agree with the people above, I really don't think you needed to give khajiit a max stamina bonus as they were already the strongest choice for pve dps. It seems unnecessary to buff a race that was already the best option, it's making the other stamina races trail further behind.

- Again to agree with people above, the AP bonus for Bretons is probably going to cause problems.

- It made me smile that you renamed one of the Redguard passives "Wayfarer" but the food buff doesn't really seem to go with the name! Due to Redguards being naturally quick and the name implying travel I think some kind of slight movement speed or mount speed (especially since Redguards are renowned as being good horsemen) buff would be more appropriate. But even if it stays as is the new name is great I just had to say that .

Also to answer your question on "will this make you change your race?" - absolutely not. I picked the races I like, I like the characters I have, and I'm sticking with them. I'd sooner make a new character than change the ones I have. I am quite bitter about khajiit getting a buff when they don't need it though as someone who plays a Redguard in pve.

Valencer

As far as I know, Red Diamond is halved by battle spirit and really doesnt come down to a lot of health regen if you somehow end up in a really long fight where it actually ends up contributing to the fight at all. Think my imperial stam DK has about a 1500 tooltip, which is halved to 750 by battle spirit.
So that's a 10% on melee hit to heal for 750. Let's say 1 melee hit every second... you're healing 750 every 10 seconds on average. Effectively 150 health regen. This is all very optimistic and assuming it procs reliably enough (which it probably won't in a lot of typical cyrodiil scenarios)

Oompuh

Love the changes to Khajiit, Argonian and Dark Elf, still feel that Nord and Bosmer need more to be competitive. Everything a Nord does an Imperial can do better. The Bosmer's Stam Recovery is outclassed by the Redguard's sustain and its stealth damage is outclassed by the Khajiit.

Sporvan

Valencer wrote: »

As far as I know, Red Diamond is halved by battle spirit and really doesnt come down to a lot of health regen if you somehow end up in a really long fight where it actually ends up contributing to the fight at all. Think my imperial stam DK has about a 1500 tooltip, which is halved to 750 by battle spirit.
So that's a 10% on melee hit to heal for 750. Let's say 1 melee hit every second... you're healing 750 every 10 seconds on average. Effectively 150 health regen. This is all very optimistic and assuming it procs reliably enough (which it probably won't in a lot of typical cyrodiil scenarios)

Yep, Red Diamond needs to be improved and possibly also apply to ranged attacks.

GreenSoup2HoT

@Valencer I personally wish Red Diamond worked like Redguards Adrenaline Rush. Give me a percentage of my maximum health on a 3 second cool-down. I hate rng passives.

Redguards with 30k stamina get 3%, so 900 stamina every 3 seconds. If Red Diamond worked the same, that would be at least better then what we have now (this also should not be effected by battle spirit).

Valencer

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Valencer I personally wish Red Diamond worked like Redguards Adrenaline Rush. Give me a percentage of my maximum health on a 3 second cool-down. I hate rng passives.

Redguards with 30k stamina get 3%, so 900 stamina every 3 seconds. If Red Diamond worked the same, that would be at least better then what we have now (this also should not be effected by battle spirit).

Adrenaline Rush is infinitely better than Red Diamond... but honestly I think it's more a case of redguards being miles above the other stamina races, and having been so ever since softcaps were removed. I feel like imperials are pretty well balanced looking at other stamina races.

Honestly, Im kind of shocked they havent even touched adrenaline rush.

Tonnopesce

Arato wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

As you are probably well aware, the Argonian healer community is quite happy with you today ZOS. Thanks.

and any Argonian tanks are quite furious with them.

And the Argonian shadowscale community is just meh...

Solariken

Xsorus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I only have two qualms with the changes:

First, I really hope you reconsider/change the Breton AP bonus - this affects leaderboards and emperorship. No player should have an AP advantage.

Second, I am very surprised (and disappointed) that Red Diamond was not buffed for Imperials. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a terrible passive, but it is very situational and relatively weak compared to the Nord incoming damage reduction or the Orc bundle, for example. I hope you evaluate RD and perhaps add something to it - a 1/2/3% incoming damage reduction or a small damage proc or reduced break free cost, or anything really. Again, it's not terrible, just very lackluster.

Ummmm...RD is absolutely superior to the Nord Damage Reduction...its not even close....

Nord Damage Reduction does not scale..if you're at Cap Resist it reduces damage by like 1%..which is nothing..

No @xsorus, resistance values are hard-capped but incoming damage mitigation is not. Nords always get 6% damage reduction, but multiplicatively with CP and other functions.

As another poster pointed out, Red Diamond basically just equates to a very measly amount of health regen which is unreliable and very limited in uptime. Therefore it's not even as good as normal health regen passives enjoyed by Nords and Orcs.

Xsorus

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I only have two qualms with the changes:

First, I really hope you reconsider/change the Breton AP bonus - this affects leaderboards and emperorship. No player should have an AP advantage.

Second, I am very surprised (and disappointed) that Red Diamond was not buffed for Imperials. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a terrible passive, but it is very situational and relatively weak compared to the Nord incoming damage reduction or the Orc bundle, for example. I hope you evaluate RD and perhaps add something to it - a 1/2/3% incoming damage reduction or a small damage proc or reduced break free cost, or anything really. Again, it's not terrible, just very lackluster.

Ummmm...RD is absolutely superior to the Nord Damage Reduction...its not even close....

Nord Damage Reduction does not scale..if you're at Cap Resist it reduces damage by like 1%..which is nothing..

No @xsorus, resistance values are hard-capped but incoming damage mitigation is not. Nords always get 6% damage reduction, but multiplicatively with CP and other functions.

As another poster pointed out, Red Diamond basically just equates to a very measly amount of health regen which is unreliable and very limited in uptime. Therefore it's not even as good as normal health regen passives enjoyed by Nords and Orcs.

Apart from perhaps bumping up the max health passive, overall I think the above are all pretty good.. The real shortfall in my opinion is the mitigation passive - let me explain why.


Let's say you have fully capped armor/resistance giving you 50% mitigation + 6% mitigation from the Nord passive (so 56%), this is what you would expect to see:

1000 incoming damage
56% mitigated (560 damage)
1000 - 560 = 440 damage received

Having done a lot of mitigation testing (with Nord passives, vampire damage reduction passives/abilities, and other stuff), this is how mitigation appears to actually work:

1000 incoming damage
50% mitigated (500 damage)
[second calculation]
500 damage
6% mitigated (30 damage)
1000 - (500 + 30) = 470 damage received

In a nutshell bonus mitigation provides diminishing returns as it is only applied to incoming damage after the damage from armor/resistances have been subtracted, ie. the more armor/resistance you have the less effective the Nord passive is. At 0% armor/resistance the Nord passive gives a full 6% mitigation, at 50% armor/resistance the Nord passive only gives 3% mitigation.

i was wrong, its 3% mitigation..not 1%...still absolute ***.

karakondzula

Nord is still gonna be worst race. Its the only race that you both nerfed (health regen)and buffed (6% stam).

You guys NEED to look at Rugged passive! Its not working correctly, fix it and buff it to 9% flat damage reduction instead of just bonus armor and spell resistance...

Nords advantages: Health, Health regen, armor.

All three are basically useless stats since big health is not needed , health regen is way too weak and hard to stack, armor and spell resistance are worthless because of insane numbers of penetrations in this game.

Ok they got a bit of stamina now great... Orc's had it all the way and they are still far better choice than Nord cuz of their damage bonus.

Just make Rugged useful, it has to be changed!

dodgehopper_ESO

PlagueMonk wrote: »

First off I would say its a bit difficult to gauge exactly what the changes are since all you do is list the changes and not the overall adjusted package. I would highly recommend retooling the original post to show what each race should look like with the adjustments.

Khajiit - only comment here is, their fluff ability should be, "lands on feet"- takes less damage from a fall.

Argonians - I absolutely HATE the proposed changes. You are basically taking away a general "good" ability that benefits all lizards (healing received) and giving it to ONLY a specific build type, healer. You got some benefit regardless of weather you were a DK, Temp, Sorc or NB, now only healers get it which is complete crap and pigeonholes the race and gimps all NON-healer Argonians FURTHER (since this is considered our powerful ability)

I would also like to know why you insist that Argonians are a super healing race when from your own history they are not. Per lore they are more thieves, assassins, and the like.

"Enigmatic and intelligent, the Argonians are experts of guerrilla tactics, and their natural abilities suit their swampy homeland. They have developed immunities to diseases that have plagued many would-be explorers in the region, and they are capable of easily exploring underwater locations due to their ability to breathe water. Argonians also have some resistance to poison."

"The Argonians' stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers. Their lack of combat bonuses in archery and one-handed weapons can be overcome by natural skill leveling and play. Argonians can be used fairly well as spellswords, but conjuration training may be necessary. They can also be useful mage-thieves due to their skills in both magic and stealth, though one may want some illusion training."

"They are known as the foremost experts in guerrilla warfare throughout the Starry Heart, a reputation brought upon them by defending their borders from enemies for countless centuries. Argonians have a lifespan similar to that of humans. According to the First Era Scholar Brendan the Persistent “the Argonian people have, throughout Tamrielic history, been perhaps the most misunderstood, vilified, and reviled of all the sentient races. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience Argonian culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people". However, it should be noted that he himself went missing in his final expedition into the deeper swamps of their homeland."

"The Shadowscales are an order of Argonian assassins originating in Black Marsh. Argonians born under the sign of the Shadow are taken at birth and offered to the Dark Brotherhood where they are trained in the arts of stealth and assassination. Any Shadowscale who lives to come of age is accepted into the Dark Brotherhood as a full member of the family. They may also leave the Brotherhood and return to Black Marsh to serve the Argonian people. They act with impunity there, and some serve as personal assassins to the King of Black Marsh."

Over and over and OVER I read these things about Argonians but I have yet to see a SINGLE of these supposedly iconic traits become part of ESO Argonian racials. Where are our stealthy abilities?, Where is our scaly hide represented? Why are we not guerrilla experts?

Now I'm not saying that Argonians are devoid of magic ability because they do have historically get alchemical bonuses and illusion abilities but both play into the above abilities.

Not happy about the little I have gained in the recent patches being stripped from me because I don't play a healer.

I'm not going to change my Shadowscale into a healer, that's for certain. I've got no problem with Argonians being a healer, but then again I've got no problem with Nords being healers either (another race I reckon good for it). I understand why they did the changes, but we've gone around and around on this topic in other forum threads before. I still believe Argonians should get a passive called Guerrilla Warfare which would give them a stealthy detection reduction as well as a bonus to poison and disease damage perhaps. I think the swimming, general bonus to all regenerations, and the potion bonus would do just fine in that mix.

Anhedonie

Giving imperials 10% max magicka would be a nice thing. Come on, most of necromancers are imperials. They must have some kind of knack for it.

Solariken

Xsorus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I only have two qualms with the changes:

First, I really hope you reconsider/change the Breton AP bonus - this affects leaderboards and emperorship. No player should have an AP advantage.

Second, I am very surprised (and disappointed) that Red Diamond was not buffed for Imperials. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a terrible passive, but it is very situational and relatively weak compared to the Nord incoming damage reduction or the Orc bundle, for example. I hope you evaluate RD and perhaps add something to it - a 1/2/3% incoming damage reduction or a small damage proc or reduced break free cost, or anything really. Again, it's not terrible, just very lackluster.

Ummmm...RD is absolutely superior to the Nord Damage Reduction...its not even close....

Nord Damage Reduction does not scale..if you're at Cap Resist it reduces damage by like 1%..which is nothing..

No @xsorus, resistance values are hard-capped but incoming damage mitigation is not. Nords always get 6% damage reduction, but multiplicatively with CP and other functions.

As another poster pointed out, Red Diamond basically just equates to a very measly amount of health regen which is unreliable and very limited in uptime. Therefore it's not even as good as normal health regen passives enjoyed by Nords and Orcs.

Apart from perhaps bumping up the max health passive, overall I think the above are all pretty good.. The real shortfall in my opinion is the mitigation passive - let me explain why.


Let's say you have fully capped armor/resistance giving you 50% mitigation + 6% mitigation from the Nord passive (so 56%), this is what you would expect to see:

1000 incoming damage
56% mitigated (560 damage)
1000 - 560 = 440 damage received

Having done a lot of mitigation testing (with Nord passives, vampire damage reduction passives/abilities, and other stuff), this is how mitigation appears to actually work:

1000 incoming damage
50% mitigated (500 damage)
[second calculation]
500 damage
6% mitigated (30 damage)
1000 - (500 + 30) = 470 damage received

In a nutshell bonus mitigation provides diminishing returns as it is only applied to incoming damage after the damage from armor/resistances have been subtracted, ie. the more armor/resistance you have the less effective the Nord passive is. At 0% armor/resistance the Nord passive gives a full 6% mitigation, at 50% armor/resistance the Nord passive only gives 3% mitigation.

i was wrong, its 3% mitigation..not 1%...still absolute ***.

Even at an effective 3%, the Nord passive will vastly outperform the Imperial passive in basically all situations except a 1v1 (and even then only if you keep 100% melee offensive uptime). The Nord passive becomes much MORE powerful as more people get to beating on you, while the Imperial passive becomes much LESS powerful versus multiple opponents.

Furthermore, basic health regen passives synergize with potions, drinks, gear, etc, whereas RD is a static 6% max health.

I'll say again, RD isn't total garbage, but currently I see it simply as flavor and not as practical or reliable as it needs to be.

Arato

karakondzula wrote: »

Nord is still gonna be worst race. Its the only race that you both nerfed (health regen)and buffed (6% stam).

You guys NEED to look at Rugged passive! Its not working correctly, fix it and buff it to 9% flat damage reduction instead of just bonus armor and spell resistance...

Nords advantages: Health, Health regen, armor.

All three are basically useless stats since big health is not needed , health regen is way too weak and hard to stack, armor and spell resistance are worthless because of insane numbers of penetrations in this game.

Ok they got a bit of stamina now great... Orc's had it all the way and they are still far better choice than Nord cuz of their damage bonus.

Just make Rugged useful, it has to be changed!

Argonian was nerfed and buffed at the same time. If you're a healer, you got buffed, if a tank, you got nerfed.

Van_0S

Nifty2g wrote: »

Ajaxduo wrote: »

I think it would be fair to request magic damage % to be added to Breton's Spell Resistance passive.

Breaks lore to do that

Lore??? Lol!!!!
Then give altmer a passive like this light/heavy attacks regain magicka. Since, they are more like the aylieds and also they did defeat the imperials.

Van_0S

For bosmer passive (Acrobat): a reduce cost for dodge roll by x% or increase weapon speed by x%. (Lore wise its safe).

Edit:
For breton (Opportunist): increase ultimate gain by x%

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

khele23eb17_ESO

I really dont want to play Khajiit. But now I have to... GJ ZOS.

Gigasax

There is no other choice for a stamina DD now... you have to be a cat-.-

phaneub17_ESO

Van_0S wrote: »

For bosmer passive (Acrobat): a reduce cost for dodge roll by x% or increase weapon speed by x%. (Lore wise its safe).

Edit:
For breton (Opportunist): increase ultimate gain by x%

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

Has to be non-combat effective, Ultimate gains is combat related.

dodgehopper_ESO

Gigasax wrote: »

There is no other choice for a stamina DD now... you have to be a cat-.-

I don't know if that's true, but I really think the passive resistance for poison/disease should be appreciably larger on Argonians and Bosmer. My Breton pushes close to 4k spell resist from his racial. My Argonian? its almost 1500. Very Sad. This number is ridiculously low, considering the fact that Argonians are generally immune in the series, and Bretons usually roll around with 50% spell resist. (Orcs also usually get 25% spell resist in the series). I'm not sure what gave them the idea that 1500 poison/disease resist was strong, at any time ever.

I actually understand why they gave Stamina to the Khajiit. They're trying to adapt the races to the changes that are being made. I really think they need to make all attribute/regen bonuses a static number (just like spell resist for Bretons). If I knew for a fact that as a Nord I'm going to get +3500 Health for instance, NO MATTER HOW I PLACE ATTRIBUTES, it would give me a lot more freedom to play the character as I want. If however, by putting points in stamina it means I get almost nothing for a health bonus, the passive loses its value. That's part of the core problem with this system, and should be addressed.

The_Saint

PVE View

stamina:
thats everything but not balance... GJ ZOS enough done to make race change interesting ;-)

magika:
Dunmer now not only first choice for dks. also for templer and nb now a really good option
No Breton changes? hm i had the dream we get spellpenetration

Rankbaajin

My first main two chars were both Imperial, a nb and templar and i feel quite let down by them. It was ok in pvp when caltrops procked red diamond, but yeah back in the day and all that....moving on, Imperials to me were meant to be tanky builds, 1%gold?? for what? paleez i think imperials should get some blocked damage converts to stam thing like the redguards but from resists and also a little stam regen modification.

Armann

Too many changes that further pigeonhole races into roles and classes, but maybe that was the intent, to motivate players to use the service.

That said, Nords being physically one of the largest race on Tamriel should get a physical damage bonus, instead of just being Imperial light. Or throw in a frost damage bonus instead so we can have bonuses to both magic and stamina playstyles and extend that to all races.

SirCritical

dpencil wrote: »

What do you think about the changes?

Khajiit - Cutpurse is ok, I think 10% would be more attractive than 5% and still not be game-breaking. The Robust Constitution passive did not need to be changed, though. As others have said Khajiit are already top stamina dps. They do not need more max stamina.
Suggestion: Switch Khajiit passive with Wood Elf (cat fall damage decrease makes much more sense). Increase pickpocket chance to 10%, whoever gets it. Leave Robust Constitution the way it was or just give it a little extra stamina regen.

Wood Elf - As stated above, I think they should get the pickpocket perk and Khajiit get the fall damage one.

Absolut supporter here

Beardimus

Changes are good, especially with race change possible. I foresee a few healers switching to argonians!

Bosmer fall damage is a bit underwhelming tho compared to the rest. If it's to stay maybe make it way bigger so it's more of a gain.

NskDen

Yup, give the imperial 1% AP bonus

Xsorus

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I only have two qualms with the changes:

First, I really hope you reconsider/change the Breton AP bonus - this affects leaderboards and emperorship. No player should have an AP advantage.

Second, I am very surprised (and disappointed) that Red Diamond was not buffed for Imperials. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a terrible passive, but it is very situational and relatively weak compared to the Nord incoming damage reduction or the Orc bundle, for example. I hope you evaluate RD and perhaps add something to it - a 1/2/3% incoming damage reduction or a small damage proc or reduced break free cost, or anything really. Again, it's not terrible, just very lackluster.

Ummmm...RD is absolutely superior to the Nord Damage Reduction...its not even close....

Nord Damage Reduction does not scale..if you're at Cap Resist it reduces damage by like 1%..which is nothing..

No @xsorus, resistance values are hard-capped but incoming damage mitigation is not. Nords always get 6% damage reduction, but multiplicatively with CP and other functions.

As another poster pointed out, Red Diamond basically just equates to a very measly amount of health regen which is unreliable and very limited in uptime. Therefore it's not even as good as normal health regen passives enjoyed by Nords and Orcs.

Apart from perhaps bumping up the max health passive, overall I think the above are all pretty good.. The real shortfall in my opinion is the mitigation passive - let me explain why.


Let's say you have fully capped armor/resistance giving you 50% mitigation + 6% mitigation from the Nord passive (so 56%), this is what you would expect to see:

1000 incoming damage
56% mitigated (560 damage)
1000 - 560 = 440 damage received

Having done a lot of mitigation testing (with Nord passives, vampire damage reduction passives/abilities, and other stuff), this is how mitigation appears to actually work:

1000 incoming damage
50% mitigated (500 damage)
[second calculation]
500 damage
6% mitigated (30 damage)
1000 - (500 + 30) = 470 damage received

In a nutshell bonus mitigation provides diminishing returns as it is only applied to incoming damage after the damage from armor/resistances have been subtracted, ie. the more armor/resistance you have the less effective the Nord passive is. At 0% armor/resistance the Nord passive gives a full 6% mitigation, at 50% armor/resistance the Nord passive only gives 3% mitigation.

i was wrong, its 3% mitigation..not 1%...still absolute ***.

Even at an effective 3%, the Nord passive will vastly outperform the Imperial passive in basically all situations except a 1v1 (and even then only if you keep 100% melee offensive uptime). The Nord passive becomes much MORE powerful as more people get to beating on you, while the Imperial passive becomes much LESS powerful versus multiple opponents.

Furthermore, basic health regen passives synergize with potions, drinks, gear, etc, whereas RD is a static 6% max health.

I'll say again, RD isn't total garbage, but currently I see it simply as flavor and not as practical or reliable as it needs to be.

I'd prefer 3% health bonus/4% stamina and and a heal proc thats better in 1v1's and probably even 2v1's then the Nord Passive...And Health Regen, unless you specifically build for it is complete ***....and it just got bloody decreased...

lucky_Sage

they need to give Breton better magicka sustain they need to have the best since there the weakest magicka class give them 3% magicka back on frost/fire/shock/magicka damage