Cheating and Exploits

Rohamad_Ali

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Ok so just to clear the air on something that has bothered people for awhile now that I actually just watched happen via on-screen messages and viewing the map of Cyrodiil (until it broke on me)...

Let's say a few EP players decide to hop on AD alts and grab a few other EP friends and go to Azura's Star for example. The EP players manage to get into a keep holding a scroll without cheating or exploiting their way in and proceed to take the scroll. The one that takes the scroll then lets themself die and one of the friends that got on an AD alt takes the scroll and proceeds to casually waltz out and proceed to the EP gates. The AD holding the scroll then lets themself die so the EP friends can grab the scroll and finish taking it to the Temple it belongs in or a keep they can secure it in.

Is that scenario considered cheating or exploiting and thus punishable by Zenimax or is it allowed to happen?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_DaryaK

It's been brought up several times and ZOS has called it a clever use of game mechanics in the past . To me it's plain cheating but not to ZOS so far .

UltimaJoe777

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Ok so just to clear the air on something that has bothered people for awhile now that I actually just watched happen via on-screen messages and viewing the map of Cyrodiil (until it broke on me)...

Let's say a few EP players decide to hop on AD alts and grab a few other EP friends and go to Azura's Star for example. The EP players manage to get into a keep holding a scroll without cheating or exploiting their way in and proceed to take the scroll. The one that takes the scroll then lets themself die and one of the friends that got on an AD alt takes the scroll and proceeds to casually waltz out and proceed to the EP gates. The AD holding the scroll then lets themself die so the EP friends can grab the scroll and finish taking it to the Temple it belongs in or a keep they can secure it in.

Is that scenario considered cheating or exploiting and thus punishable by Zenimax or is it allowed to happen?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_DaryaK

It's been brought up several times and ZOS has called it a clever use of game mechanics in the past . To me it's plain cheating but not to ZOS so far .

They may want to come up with a way for players to counter the treachery then lol not sure how they'd do it though without producing a method people could abuse...

zerosingularity

I would love to know why I still see certain known hackers and exploiters still running around unaffected by the supposed ban-hammer.

We deserve a series set of responses, and no assurances, actual human responses about what is being done with the people hacking, not the programs being used.

UltimaJoe777

zerosingularity wrote: »

I would love to know why I still see certain known hackers and exploiters still running around unaffected by the supposed ban-hammer.

We deserve a series set of responses, and no assurances, actual human responses about what is being done with the people hacking, not the programs being used.

They have already said they deal with them but they cannot discuss personal cases. Just remember they use a 3-strikes system so first and second time they break the rules isn't a guarantee they're gone for good. Now if they still remain after 3+ reports that's when I'd start being concerned...

XDragonDoomX

so @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

please - when can we have the promised updates on this.
As you can tell, there are a lot of seriously unhappy people regarding this subject.

daemonios

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Ok so just to clear the air on something that has bothered people for awhile now that I actually just watched happen via on-screen messages and viewing the map of Cyrodiil (until it broke on me)...

Let's say a few EP players decide to hop on AD alts and grab a few other EP friends and go to Azura's Star for example. The EP players manage to get into a keep holding a scroll without cheating or exploiting their way in and proceed to take the scroll. The one that takes the scroll then lets themself die and one of the friends that got on an AD alt takes the scroll and proceeds to casually waltz out and proceed to the EP gates. The AD holding the scroll then lets themself die so the EP friends can grab the scroll and finish taking it to the Temple it belongs in or a keep they can secure it in.

Is that scenario considered cheating or exploiting and thus punishable by Zenimax or is it allowed to happen?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_DaryaK

It's been brought up several times and ZOS has called it a clever use of game mechanics in the past . To me it's plain cheating but not to ZOS so far .

It doesn't seem to be cheating in the sense there is no hard rule being broken or a mechanic being exploited. I would still class this as griefing, though.

ZOS are completely oblivious to the fact that any competitive game NEEDS fair play to be strictly enforced. They've proven they don't care, namely by removing any restrictions for joining campaigns on multiple factions. Campaigns are all but dead, PvP is only about skirmishes now, for which arenas would actually be better.

visionality

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

DeadDealer wrote: »

@ola.wilhelmssonb16_ESO
if they do smthing about it and you will not able to have other characters like spies, i will just buy 2nd account just to spy in PVP

Waste of money . Spying doesn't change anything . If a faction has more good PvP players fully geared and leveled , they're going to win whether you spy on them or not .

So very right. I've VERY rarely seen a player abusing his char for his friends from another alliance to get into a keep, and I have never seen anybody reporting relevant "spydata" from other alliances. But every fifith time when a mediocre group with a mediocre playstyle wipes, someone shouts "spies". Usage of the word has become kind for a marker for lowskilled players for me, tbh.

(No insult intended to the corresponding ppl in this thread ofc)

UltimaJoe777

visionality wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

DeadDealer wrote: »

@ola.wilhelmssonb16_ESO
if they do smthing about it and you will not able to have other characters like spies, i will just buy 2nd account just to spy in PVP

Waste of money . Spying doesn't change anything . If a faction has more good PvP players fully geared and leveled , they're going to win whether you spy on them or not .

So very right. I've VERY rarely seen a player abusing his char for his friends from another alliance to get into a keep, and I have never seen anybody reporting relevant "spydata" from other alliances. But every fifith time when a mediocre group with a mediocre playstyle wipes, someone shouts "spies". Usage of the word has become kind for a marker for lowskilled players for me, tbh.

(No insult intended to the corresponding ppl in this thread ofc)

I personally have never had problems with spies either but I have seen people abuse game mechanics to swipe the scrolls from keeps.

DeadDealer

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Ok so just to clear the air on something that has bothered people for awhile now that I actually just watched happen via on-screen messages and viewing the map of Cyrodiil (until it broke on me)...

Let's say a few EP players decide to hop on AD alts and grab a few other EP friends and go to Azura's Star for example. The EP players manage to get into a keep holding a scroll without cheating or exploiting their way in and proceed to take the scroll. The one that takes the scroll then lets themself die and one of the friends that got on an AD alt takes the scroll and proceeds to casually waltz out and proceed to the EP gates. The AD holding the scroll then lets themself die so the EP friends can grab the scroll and finish taking it to the Temple it belongs in or a keep they can secure it in.

Is that scenario considered cheating or exploiting and thus punishable by Zenimax or is it allowed to happen?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_DaryaK

not an exploi lol

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

Nénlindë wrote: »

I've never seen a single hacker on ESO, I'm on PS4.

cuz u cant hack console.. but pc I don't think I saw any hackers at all.. sure bots and exploiters are everywhere.... speaking of exploits... doing normal sanctum downscakled to lvl 45 and getting cp 160 loot I'm not sure if this is an exploit.. but reloging in front of the serpent after u killed him and log back in after 10 seconds puts you and your raid in front of him and he is spawned... so u basically avoid the whole trials... that is an exploit that needs to be fixed

XDragonDoomX

visionality wrote: »

So very right. I've VERY rarely seen a player abusing his char for his friends from another alliance to get into a keep

(No insult intended to the corresponding ppl in this thread ofc)

Unfortunately I've seen this a lot - at times almost on a daily basis

Pangnirtung

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

They have already said they deal with them but they cannot discuss personal cases. Just remember they use a 3-strikes system so first and second time they break the rules isn't a guarantee they're gone for good. Now if they still remain after 3+ reports that's when I'd start being concerned...

Three strikes? Really?

Two days ago I reported a botter that has since last Christmas in Wrothgar botting ogres on a hillside. I have reported that botter multiple times, more than three times for sure and yet the botter still shows up.

All I have ever gotten back is a form response that at times has no relevance to what I reported.

darjobuno

I wanted to post this thread first because my next reply will most likely get removed. The reply following this one depicts my character wearing legendary "heavy" armor disguised with robes. The spell and physical resistances on this character were over 17k. The health on this character was over 21k the health recovery on this character was over 1500. This character can self heal for over 4k per second. The only mod I was running was one to show damage and effects so that it can be easily seen what is happening. While admittedly I was getting stunned, the flurry of attacks put on my character completely shut the game down on my end. As you watch the video you will see that although I lagged fighting the first three individuals I had no lag at all running through the middle of mass combat. You will also note that every time a charge cinema was used by another player the system lagged. Also note at one point while heading for the door of the castle spells were being spammed next to the door.

I have posted many things on the forums. Nearly all of them positive. I even started a Fan Boy thread doting on the content that the Devs have added to the game. Over-all the game is awesome and your doing a good job.

I have never been a fan of allowing game mods in a game. Just like politics you create a loophole and someone is going to abuse that loophole. My suggested fix for the short term on the PvP arena is to disable the Add-on option upon entering the campaign. Cyrodiil is a completely separate instance from PvE so I don't see how it would be difficult.

I hope that the head of the PvP instances understands this is not a personal attack. I am sure that when the PvP was created and released that it was tested for standard usage and was considered suitable by all. The human influence always effects the norm of anything. Without further jibber jabber I present my link to my PvP experience. See next post.

darjobuno

https://plus.google.com/u/0/116716706315887588185/posts/b2y95dK8pky?pid=6310750220326839458&oid=116716706315887588185&authkey=CMuDgMrZooCrrgE

Dubhliam

darjobuno wrote: »

https://plus.google.com/u/0/116716706315887588185/posts/b2y95dK8pky?pid=6310750220326839458&oid=116716706315887588185&authkey=CMuDgMrZooCrrgE

I don't see the point in this video.
You cannot cast skills because you get stunned. It's just how the game works: you need to break free from a stun in order to continue casting skills.
You have an obvious performance issue, like all people in Cyrodiil, but otherwise I see no cheating here.
EDIT: Actually, at the 2:25 mark into the video, the Death Recap shows all skills were executed by the same person.
I find it hard to believe that he managed to execute 5 skills in such a short time frame that other enemies did not have time to attack in the meantime.
EDIT2: Upon further examination, it seems only that one person attacked you. And you were stunned almost the whole time. You need to L2P, in other words: learn to break free.

Lava_Croft

darjobuno wrote: »

https://plus.google.com/u/0/116716706315887588185/posts/b2y95dK8pky?pid=6310750220326839458&oid=116716706315887588185&authkey=CMuDgMrZooCrrgE

Working as intended, please buy our next amazing piece of DLC that's cost us many hours of hard, dedicated work and isn't a cheap grab for more cash from Casu-El.

DeadDealer

Add-ons must be allowed anywere

your point is very false
addons do not affect PVP gameplay and do not allow any cheating

Lava_Croft

DeadDealer wrote: »

Add-ons must be allowed anywere

your point is very false
addons do not affect PVP gameplay and do not allow any cheating

Since add-ons can decrease your frame rate / network latency, they do affect PvP gameplay.
Since add-ons allow you to get more helpful information than someone not using add ons, they do PvP gameplay.

However, it does not allow any kind of cheating or hacking.

DeadDealer

only your latency, not the others

so i dont understand why darjobuno want disable addon option in pvp

darjobuno

Lava_Croft wrote: »

DeadDealer wrote: »

Add-ons must be allowed anywere

your point is very false
addons do not affect PVP gameplay and do not allow any cheating

Since add-ons can decrease your frame rate / network latency, they do affect PvP gameplay.
Since add-ons allow you to get more helpful information than someone not using add ons, they do PvP gameplay.

However, it does not allow any kind of cheating or hacking.

The Add-on provides what is called a system break. In a system break you can insert your own lines of programming. There are passive and aggressive Add-ons. An example of a passive program is the one I was using to show me what attacks were happening to me. This will only effect my connection speed because it is only reporting what is happening to me. There are aggressive add-ons as well. One I use in PvE is the CraftStore add-on. What this does is provides a program break that allows me to enter a variable of how many items I wish to cook. The "program" not the "player" then takes over by supplying the "pressing of the E button" so I don't have to. This means the program is working as a player interface selecting a variable so I do not have to. If you use an Add-on that is selecting lets say 1 through 5 and R you are using an aggressive add-on that can lag the game for other players in the game. Because the "program" not "you" is selecting that variable over and over and over. It is the difference between pressing the number 1 and holding down the number 111111111111111111. The system has a vast number of checks that it is doing each time a combat key is pressed and if you have a program spamming those numbers you are in fact crowding out all other processes in that area of effect and thus "CHEATING".

DeadDealer

@darjobuno lol you clearly a newbie at least in addon's development

as an addon author i can say all your words is blatant ***

its no matter for the game or for latency or other people when you for EXAMPLE:
craft 100 items by hands
craft 100 items by Multicraft addon

but your whole post is a greate example how funny can people looks like, when they trying to discuss things they didnt understand at all

DeadDealer

@darjobuno

especially last part of yur message
so funny
sorry

darjobuno

DeadDealer wrote: »

@darjobuno lol you clearly a newbie at least in addon's development

as an addon author i can say all your words is blatant ***

its no matter for the game or for latency or other people when you for EXAMPLE:
craft 100 items by hands
craft 100 items by Multicraft addon

but your whole post is a greate example how funny can people looks like, when they trying to discuss things they didnt understand at all

While I do respect the freedom of speech. I will leave you with the following argument as I have to head to work. I have a degree in electronic engineering. I started programming in the 8th grade back in 1982. I have learned Assembly Language Programming, DOS, PASCAL, and BASIC all before the age of 19. So when I tell you that anytime you allow a system break in a program you are providing loopholes for abuse trust me I know what I am saying. I also am very familiar with "Scripting". Back in the day when all there was were TEXT based games I created scripts that allowed my characters to level while I was at work. Again I know what I am talking about.

Feel free to throw eggs though. Its fun watching pointless arguments.

IcyDeadPeople

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The death of the Alliance War is something that was conciously done by ZOS. Being able to flip between factions in the same campaign is considered a good thing by ZOS and the Skyrim players that keep this game running.

I'm a Skyrim player! Curious to know what playing different factions in the same campaign has to do with Skyrim?

At any rate, this is something people have been able to do since launch, just previously required joining a group to enter.

DeadDealer

okay, i will call more addons developers here, to crush you
your whole logic is a proof you know nothing about LUA
at all lol

IcyDeadPeople

darjobuno wrote: »

https://plus.google.com/u/0/116716706315887588185/posts/b2y95dK8pky?pid=6310750220326839458&oid=116716706315887588185&authkey=CMuDgMrZooCrrgE

This exact same issue happens to me at times on high pop campaign. It is not cheating, but rather has to do with low end CPU not being able to process multiple people attacking you at once in the vicinity of large battles. What is happening is your frame rate is dropping all the way below 1 frame per second when hit with multiple attacks.

Try using wykyd toolbar or other frame rate counter, and you will see it plummet when this happens. It's frustrating, certainly, and it seems those of us who participate in Cyrodiil on low spec PC are not exactly on a level playing field.

The ways I have found to mitigate this are playing low population campaigns (Haderus or Azura's Star), or if you prefer to play on high pop campaign, try to either play at less busy times of day or in the Imperial City, which is largely lag free, and ideally avoid any large battles near keeps under siege. Usually I find also better performance ganking enemy players far away from large battles.

Another thing that sometimes helps is completely exiting the game and restarting.

Rohamad_Ali

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom recently posted that if you even think something might be cheating you do it at your own risk . That was a pretty broad statement but completely allowed by ZOS for her to say . ZOS's TOS is so flexible they can put an account action against anyone using any 3rd party software that doesn't come with the ingame control system . Think about that . ZOS also does not answer to share holders or any other company on its policy . They're completely independent and monitor themselves . This is why they can ban without impunity despite customer complaints . If they feel something is being used to damage the enjoyment of the game , they can warn or punish for it immediately without warning .

Elsonso

darjobuno wrote: »

The Add-on provides what is called a system break. In a system break you can insert your own lines of programming. There are passive and aggressive Add-ons. An example of a passive program is the one I was using to show me what attacks were happening to me. This will only effect my connection speed because it is only reporting what is happening to me. There are aggressive add-ons as well. One I use in PvE is the CraftStore add-on. What this does is provides a program break that allows me to enter a variable of how many items I wish to cook. The "program" not the "player" then takes over by supplying the "pressing of the E button" so I don't have to. This means the program is working as a player interface selecting a variable so I do not have to. If you use an Add-on that is selecting lets say 1 through 5 and R you are using an aggressive add-on that can lag the game for other players in the game. Because the "program" not "you" is selecting that variable over and over and over. It is the difference between pressing the number 1 and holding down the number 111111111111111111. The system has a vast number of checks that it is doing each time a combat key is pressed and if you have a program spamming those numbers you are in fact crowding out all other processes in that area of effect and thus "CHEATING".

No. This is not what is happening.

In an unhacked, properly working, client, the Add-on API cannot move characters, initiate combat, or use slotted abilities. If the client is hacked, then it is a hacked client that would be doing this, not an add-on.

darjobuno wrote: »

While I do respect the freedom of speech. I will leave you with the following argument as I have to head to work. I have a degree in electronic engineering. I started programming in the 8th grade back in 1982. I have learned Assembly Language Programming, DOS, PASCAL, and BASIC all before the age of 19. So when I tell you that anytime you allow a system break in a program you are providing loopholes for abuse trust me I know what I am saying. I also am very familiar with "Scripting". Back in the day when all there was were TEXT based games I created scripts that allowed my characters to level while I was at work. Again I know what I am talking about.

All that you say about yourself might be true, but it does not change that what you are saying about add-ons in ESO is wrong.

DeadDealer

@darjobuno
read message above, for example

DeadDealer

@darjobuno
asnwer from Baetram, famous ESO addon-dev

What is the difference between manually pressing the r key several times after each other, and an addon that is doing this for you?
The addon is just "simulating" your keypress and is waiting several milliseconds in between. Otherwise you'll get kicked from the server (like pressing the r key several times in a second will do the same after some time).

Imo this is no cheating as the addons are not able to do this in combat, with skills or whatever. It's all about crafting and out-of-combat stuff.

Or perhaps I don't see the time benefit as cheating. You won't level faster because of this and you won't have any other benefits.

If he/she doesn't like the addon he/she could still switch to the console game