Update 44 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Maintenance for the week of October 7:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – October 7
• Xbox: EU megaserver for maintenance – October 9, 2:00 UTC (October 8, 10:00PM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – October 7
• Xbox: EU megaserver for maintenance – October 9, 2:00 UTC (October 8, 10:00PM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
Cheating and Exploits
-
phbell✭✭✭✭@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
I understand and strictly speaking, you are correct. But there is a contractual agreement made when we agree to the ToS, CoC, and other licensing terms upon playing the game. A violation of this agreement is a contractual breach. The ability to pay has no legal relevance and while I agree that there is little value in suing ones customers, one or two examples might be all that is needed. The authors of cheat software have no such understanding with Blizzard (or ZOS) so a lawsuit will have to be about intentional interference of some type - which seems quite a bit trickier. I will leave it to the lawyers to weigh in on this.
0 -
Pomaikai✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Here is another thread full of people happily bragging about their use of gap closing exploits, including a well known streamer. Pass these along to your TOS Violation Team as well.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/276951/is-gap-closing-a-keep-cheating#latest5 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
I understand and strictly speaking, you are correct. But there is a contractual agreement made when we agree to the ToS, CoC, and other licensing terms upon playing the game. A violation of this agreement is a contractual breach. The ability to pay has no legal relevance and while I agree that there is little value in suing ones customers, one or two examples might be all that is needed. The authors of cheat software have no such understanding with Blizzard (or ZOS) so a lawsuit will have to be about intentional interference of some type - which seems quite a bit trickier. I will leave it to the lawyers to weigh in on this.
Actually, according to the article on this subject Blizzard has won similar law suits before. They are suing for monetary damages this hackers cause to the company by costing them subscribing players.2 -
Blizzard can sue only poor lonely guys lol
look at the Bossland vs Blizzard courts
its till going like 6 years and Bossland won few cases, while blizzard only won one, about do not sell their bot in germany0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭LastAmbushOnEarth wrote: »Blizzard can sue only poor lonely guys lol
look at the Bossland vs Blizzard courts
its till going like 6 years and Bossland won few cases, while blizzard only won one, about do not sell their bot in germany
Winning or losing this lawsuits only matter to the company though, to the players of their games it only matters that Blizzard does take public action against cheating. Visible action increases the community's faith in the company and in the game they invest money and time into.2 -
Pomaikai✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
So, you closed that thread without a peep. Have the people admitting to exploiting gap closing mechanics in that thread been sent on to the TOS Violation Team?
0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Ok I think I have a solution for keep jumpers that Zenimax can get behind without losing players (not as many anyway lol):
So someone gets caught keep jumping in Cyrodiil. Following the usual punishment methods that player could be booted from Cyrodiil and cannot return to it for an hour with a warning message saying why. If they return after the hour is up and persist I say ban that person from Cyrodiil entirely for a few days. They would be unable to enter campaigns at all until that expires, and to make the punishment stick more, for both the warning and the second punishment, it would be spread to EVERY CHARACTER in that account. A third time would result in that account being permanently kicked out of Cyrodiil, no matter how many times they delete and remake characters. This could also apply to any other exploits going on.
For cheat engine users though it's clear that the culprits need to be banned from the entire game, regardless of how many people Zenimax loses. If that many people are cheating then something went wrong in the first place, and I'd say Zenimax should take legal action against the makers of the cheat engine to get to the root of the problem. Also it's only PC players that have access to CE so at MOST they lose 1/3rd of their entire population.
There wont be legal action against CE. CE Specifically advises not to use their tool for multiplayer games and removes posts on their forums of development for multiplayer use. The problem isn't CE, its the players - ban the players, then there's no problem. YES, you will cut what I assume now is a surprisingly large amount of the population (maybe the cause of their hesitation) BUT you will help repair your damaged reputation and start to instill some level of confidence in you from your customer base.
I dont think they're going to do anything though, baby definitely got put in the corner so our complaints about the hacking are contained.
If CE is actually against their product being used on MMORPGs and advises against it then yes legal action cannot be taken and it is the sole fault of the users. However, you still have to wonder how it is able to be used that way in the first place, and how protective measures to prevent its use can be bypassed, if it has been.
Its able to be used for anything done client side - as far as Im aware the ratio of serverside-clientside information has changed in order to reduce lag, and the checks done have been reduce - but *shrug* Zos does have the ability to ban every single person who used it, they just dont want to for some reason opting instead to provide 'second chances', I honestly dont know what they think they are gaining by keeping these people around.
Paying customers, of course. With their population count far below what they want and so many using cheats and exploits they are in a bind in how to punish cheaters while not cutting out a large chunk of their playerbase.
It can't have been so big as to justify the complete disrespect of their entire player-base. They banned 40-something people, and unbanned how many? How many people do you personally know that have sworn off giving ZOS another cent until they actually enforce their rules fairly. Its still a fact that using multi-craft or roomba gets you a more concrete suspension than hacking. Character names, use of language resulting in permanent bans they're still refusing to review, but sure, the hands down multiplayer game taboo of hacking that every single publisher is guaranteeing permanent and unappealable.
We don't know what they are doing behind the scenes though because they don't keep us updated regularly, therefore all we can do is speculate. If the disrespect you speak of IS them not keeping us regularly updated, then I agree.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
It actually was discussed (by me at least) with no knowledge of that. However, if the ones making the Cheat Engine are not actually promoting its use for MMOs they stand less guilty than that Overwatch CE does.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
They don't sue the players, they sue the creators of the CE. Most you can do to a player using CE is give them the boot. Suing the maker is getting to the root of the problem.
P.S. Sorry for the triple posts catching up on reading and replying to this thread lolEdited by UltimaJoe777 on July 5, 2016 9:49PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
So, you closed that thread without a peep. Have the people admitting to exploiting gap closing mechanics in that thread been sent on to the TOS Violation Team?
Dont expect them to or reply to you mate, you will always be disappointed. Have a look on youtube, see a lot of exploits there, just for the taking lol0 -
phbell✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
They don't sue the players, they sue the creators of the CE. Most you can do to a player using CE is give them the boot. Suing the maker is getting to the root of the problem.
P.S. Sorry for the triple posts catching up on reading and replying to this thread lol
I understand what this (and another)post are trying to say here. But the cheater is the player using the CE product - not the programmer that wrote the CE software. Also, the user - meaning we players in the game - have agreed to the terms and conditions when signing up as consideration for being allowed to play the game. That is a contract and those cheating are in violation of that contract. The programmers that write Cheat Engine and other similar products have no such contract.
Bottom line - those in the game that use 3rd party software in violation of the terms of use agreement are committing a civil tort and can be sued [although it would be hardly worth the effort]. Additionally, if the use of this software were to be considered hacking it might also be considered a crime. Especially if the use caused Zenimax (Blizzard, et. al.) financial loss.
Suing players may be the wrong choice here - but I believe that Zenimax has a stronger case against those players using CE than they do against the authors of the product.
I do see the argument for going after the software authors - "a product when used as intended causing financial harm" - I just think it is a tougher sell.
3 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
They don't sue the players, they sue the creators of the CE. Most you can do to a player using CE is give them the boot. Suing the maker is getting to the root of the problem.
P.S. Sorry for the triple posts catching up on reading and replying to this thread lol
I understand what this (and another)post are trying to say here. But the cheater is the player using the CE product - not the programmer that wrote the CE software. Also, the user - meaning we players in the game - have agreed to the terms and conditions when signing up as consideration for being allowed to play the game. That is a contract and those cheating are in violation of that contract. The programmers that write Cheat Engine and other similar products have no such contract.
Bottom line - those in the game that use 3rd party software in violation of the terms of use agreement are committing a civil tort and can be sued [although it would be hardly worth the effort]. Additionally, if the use of this software were to be considered hacking it might also be considered a crime. Especially if the use caused Zenimax (Blizzard, et. al.) financial loss.
Suing players may be the wrong choice here - but I believe that Zenimax has a stronger case against those players using CE than they do against the authors of the product.
I do see the argument for going after the software authors - "a product when used as intended causing financial harm" - I just think it is a tougher sell.
Logically whenever someone actually in contract with a company's service violates the terms of said service it usually leads to termination of said service (in a game's case a permaban) but a service that actually illegally modifies said company's service is not so easily punishable and unless sued can continue to modify that service. Even if that does not directly influence the modification software's owner/designer it WILL influence their daily life.
It is true though that going after the software developer itself may seem frivolous but that depends on what is being lost, like with Blizzard and Overwatch.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 5, 2016 11:04PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
phbell✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
They don't sue the players, they sue the creators of the CE. Most you can do to a player using CE is give them the boot. Suing the maker is getting to the root of the problem.
P.S. Sorry for the triple posts catching up on reading and replying to this thread lol
I understand what this (and another)post are trying to say here. But the cheater is the player using the CE product - not the programmer that wrote the CE software. Also, the user - meaning we players in the game - have agreed to the terms and conditions when signing up as consideration for being allowed to play the game. That is a contract and those cheating are in violation of that contract. The programmers that write Cheat Engine and other similar products have no such contract.
Bottom line - those in the game that use 3rd party software in violation of the terms of use agreement are committing a civil tort and can be sued [although it would be hardly worth the effort]. Additionally, if the use of this software were to be considered hacking it might also be considered a crime. Especially if the use caused Zenimax (Blizzard, et. al.) financial loss.
Suing players may be the wrong choice here - but I believe that Zenimax has a stronger case against those players using CE than they do against the authors of the product.
I do see the argument for going after the software authors - "a product when used as intended causing financial harm" - I just think it is a tougher sell.
Logically whenever someone actually in contract with a company's service violates the terms of said service it usually leads to termination of said service (in a game's case a permaban) but a service that actually illegally modifies said company's service is not so easily punishable and unless sued can continue to modify that service. Even if that does not directly influence the modification software's owner/designer it WILL influence their daily life.
It is true though that going after the software developer itself may seem frivolous but that depends on what is being lost, like with Blizzard and Overwatch.
Yup. Pretty sure we agree here, even though you are referring to those 3rd party programs as a "service" when, in fact, they are a product. Also, I never meant to suggest that going after the software developer was "frivolous". I think that would be awesome and I wish Blizzard all the luck. I just think it is a steep climb.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
They don't sue the players, they sue the creators of the CE. Most you can do to a player using CE is give them the boot. Suing the maker is getting to the root of the problem.
P.S. Sorry for the triple posts catching up on reading and replying to this thread lol
I understand what this (and another)post are trying to say here. But the cheater is the player using the CE product - not the programmer that wrote the CE software. Also, the user - meaning we players in the game - have agreed to the terms and conditions when signing up as consideration for being allowed to play the game. That is a contract and those cheating are in violation of that contract. The programmers that write Cheat Engine and other similar products have no such contract.
Bottom line - those in the game that use 3rd party software in violation of the terms of use agreement are committing a civil tort and can be sued [although it would be hardly worth the effort]. Additionally, if the use of this software were to be considered hacking it might also be considered a crime. Especially if the use caused Zenimax (Blizzard, et. al.) financial loss.
Suing players may be the wrong choice here - but I believe that Zenimax has a stronger case against those players using CE than they do against the authors of the product.
I do see the argument for going after the software authors - "a product when used as intended causing financial harm" - I just think it is a tougher sell.
Logically whenever someone actually in contract with a company's service violates the terms of said service it usually leads to termination of said service (in a game's case a permaban) but a service that actually illegally modifies said company's service is not so easily punishable and unless sued can continue to modify that service. Even if that does not directly influence the modification software's owner/designer it WILL influence their daily life.
It is true though that going after the software developer itself may seem frivolous but that depends on what is being lost, like with Blizzard and Overwatch.
Yup. Pretty sure we agree here, even though you are referring to those 3rd party programs as a "service" when, in fact, they are a product. Also, I never meant to suggest that going after the software developer was "frivolous". I think that would be awesome and I wish Blizzard all the luck. I just think it is a steep climb.
Yeah it can be tough. Also tomato tamato lolGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy1 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
They don't sue the players, they sue the creators of the CE. Most you can do to a player using CE is give them the boot. Suing the maker is getting to the root of the problem.
P.S. Sorry for the triple posts catching up on reading and replying to this thread lol
I understand what this (and another)post are trying to say here. But the cheater is the player using the CE product - not the programmer that wrote the CE software. Also, the user - meaning we players in the game - have agreed to the terms and conditions when signing up as consideration for being allowed to play the game. That is a contract and those cheating are in violation of that contract. The programmers that write Cheat Engine and other similar products have no such contract.
Bottom line - those in the game that use 3rd party software in violation of the terms of use agreement are committing a civil tort and can be sued [although it would be hardly worth the effort]. Additionally, if the use of this software were to be considered hacking it might also be considered a crime. Especially if the use caused Zenimax (Blizzard, et. al.) financial loss.
Suing players may be the wrong choice here - but I believe that Zenimax has a stronger case against those players using CE than they do against the authors of the product.
I do see the argument for going after the software authors - "a product when used as intended causing financial harm" - I just think it is a tougher sell.
Logically whenever someone actually in contract with a company's service violates the terms of said service it usually leads to termination of said service (in a game's case a permaban) but a service that actually illegally modifies said company's service is not so easily punishable and unless sued can continue to modify that service. Even if that does not directly influence the modification software's owner/designer it WILL influence their daily life.
It is true though that going after the software developer itself may seem frivolous but that depends on what is being lost, like with Blizzard and Overwatch.
There's more to it than that. CE is a generic tool. It can be used to do all sorts of hacks, not just in games, and certainly not just in ESO. In contrast, the Bossland tools (from what I've read) are geared specifically towards Overwatch and other Blizzard games. They appear to be a one-stop shop if you want to cheat in a Blizzard game and to have no other use. That could make them liable for losses incurred by Blizzard, not under breach of contract (Blizzard doesn't have a contract with Bossland) but under other liability provisions.
To make matters more confusing, Blizzard is invoking the DMCA (digital millennium copyright act) and its anti-circumvention provisions, which is a questionable use of them. The DMCA forbids the circumvention of protection mechanisms (e.g. the encryption on a cable STB that prevents freely recording cable shows) in order to infringe on a copyrighted work. If Bossland isn't actually infringing on copyright, it's debatable that the DMCA can be invoked.3 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »@UltimaJoe777 @dday3six
Apparently your discussion of legal action isn't all that absurd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36713061 Blizzard are doing that right now. Not sure if this is where the debate stemmed from or just a coincidence, sorry if I missed the talk of this already.
Interesting, but I wonder if Blizzard (and ZOS) would not have a better case against the players using the "cheat tools". After all, it is the user that is violating a contractual agreement with Blizzard by using the "cheat tool". Breach of Contract often comes with financial recompense.
It is pointless to sue players that are not likely to have the financial means to pay even for the trial. They go after those hacking their game as doing so is deemed illegal in pretty much every country...
They don't sue the players, they sue the creators of the CE. Most you can do to a player using CE is give them the boot. Suing the maker is getting to the root of the problem.
P.S. Sorry for the triple posts catching up on reading and replying to this thread lol
I understand what this (and another)post are trying to say here. But the cheater is the player using the CE product - not the programmer that wrote the CE software. Also, the user - meaning we players in the game - have agreed to the terms and conditions when signing up as consideration for being allowed to play the game. That is a contract and those cheating are in violation of that contract. The programmers that write Cheat Engine and other similar products have no such contract.
Bottom line - those in the game that use 3rd party software in violation of the terms of use agreement are committing a civil tort and can be sued [although it would be hardly worth the effort]. Additionally, if the use of this software were to be considered hacking it might also be considered a crime. Especially if the use caused Zenimax (Blizzard, et. al.) financial loss.
Suing players may be the wrong choice here - but I believe that Zenimax has a stronger case against those players using CE than they do against the authors of the product.
I do see the argument for going after the software authors - "a product when used as intended causing financial harm" - I just think it is a tougher sell.
Logically whenever someone actually in contract with a company's service violates the terms of said service it usually leads to termination of said service (in a game's case a permaban) but a service that actually illegally modifies said company's service is not so easily punishable and unless sued can continue to modify that service. Even if that does not directly influence the modification software's owner/designer it WILL influence their daily life.
It is true though that going after the software developer itself may seem frivolous but that depends on what is being lost, like with Blizzard and Overwatch.
There's more to it than that. CE is a generic tool. It can be used to do all sorts of hacks, not just in games, and certainly not just in ESO. In contrast, the Bossland tools (from what I've read) are geared specifically towards Overwatch and other Blizzard games. They appear to be a one-stop shop if you want to cheat in a Blizzard game and to have no other use. That could make them liable for losses incurred by Blizzard, not under breach of contract (Blizzard doesn't have a contract with Bossland) but under other liability provisions.
To make matters more confusing, Blizzard is invoking the DMCA (digital millennium copyright act) and its anti-circumvention provisions, which is a questionable use of them. The DMCA forbids the circumvention of protection mechanisms (e.g. the encryption on a cable STB that prevents freely recording cable shows) in order to infringe on a copyrighted work. If Bossland isn't actually infringing on copyright, it's debatable that the DMCA can be invoked.
Yeah that's why it's less likely CE can be targeted by Zenimax for lawsuit, especially if they really do discourage using it for MMOs.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy1 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ok so apparently something has been done recently to show us Zenimax IS working to stop cheaters. However, the response was actually negative... I will not speak of the action taken but instead would like to address those that opposed it in the following manner...
MAKE UP YOUR FRIGGIN' MINDS!!! DO YOU WANT THESE PEOPLE STOPPED OR NOT?!?
That is all.
P.S. Fix an exploit all you want but exploiters will never stop exploiting new exploits.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 6, 2016 2:15AMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy4 -
NobleNerd✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Hey everyone, just a small update. With today's PC/Mac incremental patch, we rolled out some additional anti-cheat measures, with more to come. We'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone once again that cheating in ESO is grounds for a permanent ban.
Thanks for the update Jessica, however I need to be a cynic here and say... we need something more than this.
It's been a rough couple of months on the cheating/exploiting front and we really are not getting much back other than the periodic updates that something has been updated and cheating is bad don't do it.
As others have said there are a lot of issues which are not directly related to 3rd party programs which are causing problems right now and we need some clear information from yourselves on what's happening with it and if it is exploiting or not.
Otherwise I am still kind of hoping for some kind of longer news article about what's been happening, what you've been doing behind the scenes (no details on how people are caught but just generally the policies etc) from Matt to show that this really is something the senior people at ZOS are taking seriously.
Yeah this is like having the band play soothing music as the Titanic is sinking! Players need to see some substantial results of this anti-cheat stance!1 -
Lil_Willie✭✭✭So you've made a thread for me after deleting my thread for some petty drama? This is the same BS I've saw in your little warning, like I said in my message, the community paid money for this game so your demands warning is invaluable. Yeah let's get banned for telling ZOS that their crashing is a nuisance.
And I'll gladly let everyone know that apparently my complaint about the game crashing is offensive and resulted in a warning since it was a demand. As for my exploit thread, yeah I have no say over what happened there.2 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So something which came to me this morning and I wanted to post now I have a chance.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom you made the below statement in a separate thread however a majority of the player base who use this may not realise that this is now officially declared an exploit.ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Hey everyone,
We are working on making some tweaks to certain gap closers that players are using to bypass core keep capture mechanics. It is not intended that gap closers be used to enter keeps without downing doors and/or walls, or enter areas you otherwise would not be able to without exploiting (below Dolmens, under water, etc.) While we are aware that players are using certain gap closers to do exactly these things, we do considered this behavior an exploit.
If you see another player exploiting in this manner, you can send us videos or other evidence by submitting a customer support ticket, by sending them to anyone on the Community or Moderation team here on the forums, or emailing us at community@elderscrollsonline.com.
Thank you!
Now I understand that everyone should know this is an exploit but not everyone will and as there has been a precedent set in the game to use broken mechanics until fixed without any action from ZOS many will use this without concern.
The only information now which warns people about these actions is a forums post in a now locked thread which will be buried and lost within a couple of days. When you're making these kind of announcements it would be a good idea to update the launcher/log-in screen to make sure it's as visible as possible for everyone playing the game.
A previous game I played did the following when something like this would arise.- Make a news statement on their website saying a exploit had been identified and warning players not to use it.
- Update the launcher to say a new declared exploit was in the game and linking back to the news article.
- Have the log-in/character selection screen show additional warnings about a new exploit and not to use it.
Not sure how much work is involved in the above but it would go a long way towards improving communication and showing the community at large ZOS is taking a hard stance on cheating/exploiting as well as giving everyone within the game a fair warning as to stop this without having to dig up the above quote and share it every time someone says it's not an exploit.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."5 -
kevlarto_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭What's really sad is when CE players makes emp, like we have now, cheating is so bad and common now that people refer to one guild as the Cheat Engine guild seems like about half of them are running it or exploiting some kind of broken game mechanic, how many players and how much revenue is Zos going to lose before they really take this cheating issue serious and put their foot down.3 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kevlarto_ESO wrote: »What's really sad is when CE players makes emp, like we have now, cheating is so bad and common now that people refer to one guild as the Cheat Engine guild seems like about half of them are running it or exploiting some kind of broken game mechanic, how many players and how much revenue is Zos going to lose before they really take this cheating issue serious and put their foot down.
Once again, how do we as players know 100% these players are using the cheat engine. It's become the go to insult for anyone we don't like or who beat us now.
If anyone goes into Cyrodiil and does well at 1vX they're spammed with hate about being a CE user.
We need to stop stating that every single player and every single unknown in a fight is the CE and start getting back to healing as a community whilst keeping pressure on ZOS to not let this issue fall aside.
ZOS have already lost because we the community will never let this issue go and many here will never believe that the CE will ever be fully contained. This is why the people who showed it off as they did have done lasting damage to the game and should never be valued as heroic whistle blowers. Sadly in this regard ignorance was better for our community.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."3 -
Universe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I made 2 videos of multiple gap closer bug exploiters.
Hopefully, they will get banned
The proofs are quite damning.
Though it would have been much better if ZOS managed to fix it in the first place.Edited by Universe on July 6, 2016 12:43PMSome videos I recorded for fun: Main character:
PC EU main: Universe - AD magicka Sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, Trial Bosses Solo Champion
Top alts: Genius(stamina/sagicka Dragonknight) The Force(stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
PC NA main: The Magic - AD magicka Sorcerer
Started playing ESO in beta & early access
User_ID: Daedric_Prince2 -
Daganerabus✭✭✭Eso does Nothing against cheaters/exploiters. Many ppl i from my guild filed a reports a couple times against individuals whom cleared out gbank. In response to tickets, eso replies on how to "ignore" an individual, followed by the fact that their investigations are confidential. I Know Several Guilds complaining about one person in particular, whombis messing with the gameplay and reasonable enjoyment of hundreds. However, all these ppl whom have broke just about every OFFICIAL RULE were NOT EVER Penalized. How do we know? Easy, these individuals BRAG/BOAST about it! And continue there actions. I am sorry ESO. But u guys seem to favour the ones who ruin the game for those whom ARE the biggest spenders/supporters and have memberships, buy literally everything from CROWN STORE. And I have know Literall Hundreds of GOOD PPL whom ALL have left the game. They GIVE-UP on COMPLAINING to ESO. Why? BECAUSE THEY are the ones BEING PENIALIZED for complaining or Reporting to eso.
To make matters worse. AFTER PAST EXPLOIT with banker glitch. THOSE PPL WERE ALLOWED TO KEEP EVERYTHING! Sitting on THOUSANDS OF the RAREST MATERIALS IN GAME multiple accts. Now are extremely Wealthy And buying up ALL TRADERS using 16 accts. Per Playstation, then their friends ALL Buying up the rest of traders with multiple accts...via their playstaions, all financially supported and controlled by the TOP waelthiest EXPLOITER. Ironically, allegedly, the exploiter person(s) are *rumoured* to having PARTNER(S)..and/or Contacts directly whom WORK FOR ESO!
Also rumoured to getting heads up on specific changes etc. prior to official announcements even before pts announcements etc.
And that is according to the exploiter(s).
But no worries, i won't be a SKEAVER.
afterall, Eso does not want Shame and Blame.
To add to the above: Recent DLC, For most, Perfect Roe apprx. 1 per 600, tampering alloys, dreugh wax Dropping 1 per 1000!! for and the ppl who regularly farm hours/days for the rare materials have finally given up. Drops not adhering to set algorithyms.
ESO JUST MADE the GLITCHERS and CHEATERS More wealthy! And many ppl have been talking, and they BELIEVE that this is ESO's way of Letting some of this *over exploited material which was never removed from the cheaters/exploiters* inventory, even the known 1 day banned cheaters/exploiters inventories, and allowing it to get thinned out some by limiting the drop rate. So basically, ALL of ESO's GOOD PAYING LEGIT Members SUFFER, While the Exploiters get free reign/control/ and really, many believe Eso SUPPORTS these individuals because they Explose the flaws in the programming.
Well, We Love the game. But, it seems that you are going to lose Tens of Thousands more ppl. Its a ripple effect from that point.
If PPL are going to SPEND Hundreds every month on this game, Those individuals deserve to be heard, listened too.
I am merely expressing my opinions/frustrations/and to the best of my knowledge including expressed opinions of others which were discussed/shared in general conversation(s). The above is not intended to implicate individual(s) expressedly, nor to imply/laying blame/accusing anyone directly or indirectly of violation(s) in direct or indirect regards to Eula, Terms and Service, etc.
The above is merely expression resulting from but not limited to the expression(s) of others, beliefs, personal beliefs, whether factual or non factual, evidential or not evidential.
In conclusion,
I, and many others;
truly believe that Zenimax, Eso, etc. Do not CARE about the Good ppl which collectively made the game a success throughout our loyalties, dedications, and expenditures pertaining to the eso game and gaming community.
I, We also FEEL that ESO is is DIRECTLY in Violation in regards to its own Eula, terms of service and agreement.
Lastly,
There are several solutions to the above. I am aware on how to solve/Resolve the majority of all the issues fairly, and in ways which would further, significantly benefit Eso.
7 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Going to try and break down @Daganerabus post.
So first of all if this is in regards to a player stealing items from a guild bank this isn't cheating/exploiting. It's not nice behavior but ZOS doesn't cover this action under the ToS and it's on players to only allow people they trust access to guild banks.Daganerabus wrote: »Eso does Nothing against cheaters/exploiters. Many ppl i from my guild filed a reports a couple times against individuals whom cleared out gbank
If this is something which can be dealt with on the player side of using an ignore feature then ZOS don't need to intervene. Players have to reach pretty high levels of harassment before ZOS will intervene.Daganerabus wrote: »In response to tickets, eso replies on how to "ignore" an individual, followed by the fact that their investigations are confidential. I Know Several Guilds complaining about one person in particular, whombis messing with the gameplay and reasonable enjoyment of hundreds.
This is indeed an issue and what's been the most hotly debated topic within this thread. Whilst not every action deserves a permanent ban many players who have abused have come back only to mock the community and ZOS for that fact they're still here.Daganerabus wrote: »However, all these ppl whom have broke just about every OFFICIAL RULE were NOT EVER Penalized. How do we know? Easy, these individuals BRAG/BOAST about it! And continue there actions.
I wish that was the case, because they would be listening to me a lot more.Daganerabus wrote: »I am sorry ESO. But u guys seem to favour the ones who ruin the game for those whom ARE the biggest spenders/supporters and have memberships, buy literally everything from CROWN STORE. And I have know Literall Hundreds of GOOD PPL whom ALL have left the game. They GIVE-UP on COMPLAINING to ESO. Why? BECAUSE THEY are the ones BEING PENIALIZED for complaining or Reporting to eso.
Sadly our voice is the minority when it comes to players and their enjoyment of the game.
This has and is still one of the biggest issues with the games enforcement system. It's advantageous to exploit/cheat at least once if you can make a lot of money from it, as you'll only get a suspension but keep all the materials. Then just don't do it again as to avoid the permanent ban.Daganerabus wrote: »To make matters worse. AFTER PAST EXPLOIT with banker glitch. THOSE PPL WERE ALLOWED TO KEEP EVERYTHING! Sitting on THOUSANDS OF the RAREST MATERIALS IN GAME multiple accts.
This is a very serious accusation and something that ZOS senior management might want to investigate. I know after the t20 incident CCP Games actually had to set up an internal affairs department at their company to make sure developer abuse didn't happen.Daganerabus wrote: »Now are extremely Wealthy And buying up ALL TRADERS using 16 accts. Per Playstation, then their friends ALL Buying up the rest of traders with multiple accts...via their playstaions, all financially supported and controlled by the TOP waelthiest EXPLOITER. Ironically, allegedly, the exploiter person(s) are *rumoured* to having PARTNER(S)..and/or Contacts directly whom WORK FOR ESO!
This has been something which has been bought up before when fansites were given the chance for private TeamSpeak meetings with ZOS and gained forknowledge of updates which they posted to their sites before ZOS annouced it by official means. Again this is something ZOS might want to be careful of because it can damage the company reputation.Daganerabus wrote: »Also rumoured to getting heads up on specific changes etc. prior to official announcements even before pts announcements etc.
And that is according to the exploiter(s).
There has been a lot of speculation about changes in temper refine rates, if true then ZOS not only decided not to inform the player base but as you say are only helping those who cheated and were able to keep the rewards. Sadly this is something we can't and won't ever be able to verify without a large number of the community giving data samples.Daganerabus wrote: »To add to the above: Recent DLC, For most, Perfect Roe apprx. 1 per 600, tampering alloys, dreugh wax Dropping 1 per 1000!! for and the ppl who regularly farm hours/days for the rare materials have finally given up. Drops not adhering to set algorithyms.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
how about a list of bannable exploits. like the new gap close can sometimes jump up keeps, but thats hardly an exploit, you just point and click with vanilla game set up. certainly it needs to be fixed though.
and the other persons idea to post weekly bans for specific things(with no names) is a good idea too. maybe people will think twice when they actually see that people are getting banned for stuff and stop exploiting before they get caught... saving you time and effort1 -
XDragonDoomX✭✭✭✭✭For those who didn't see the reply in the other thread.ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Hey everyone,
We are working on making some tweaks to certain gap closers that players are using to bypass core keep capture mechanics. It is not intended that gap closers be used to enter keeps without downing doors and/or walls, or enter areas you otherwise would not be able to without exploiting (below Dolmens, under water, etc.) While we are aware that players are using certain gap closers to do exactly these things, we do considered this behavior an exploit.
If you see another player exploiting in this manner, you can send us videos or other evidence by submitting a customer support ticket, by sending them to anyone on the Community or Moderation team here on the forums, or emailing us at community@elderscrollsonline.com.
Thank you!
@LastAmbushOnEarth - Please read. I think this is the proof & evidence you requested.
"Forums are like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea.
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it. ”
(with apologies to Eugene H. Spafford, aka Spaf)
I have the power to please one person per day. Today is not your day.
Tomorrow... Tomorrow does not look good either.
82. Victory laps after killing the dragon with my 1d2 bow is considered in poor taste.
83. My gnome does not like big butts and he cannot lie.
84. Not allowed to talk my fellow inquisitors into buying a 220lb pull crossbow.
85. Not allowed to talk my fellow inquisitors into buying an industrial strength flamethrower.
86. Not allowed to make a superhero with a 99% chance of dodging even after the -10 penalty for a successful called shot.
87. There is no such thing as a dwarven katana.
88. My bard does not get a bonus to perform if she is obviously not wearing anything under her tabard.
89. The elf's name is not Legolam.
** Mr Glenn's Forbidden activities list**0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Unfortunately, that is correct. There are several off the shelf debugging tools that can be used to do the exact same thing that CE does. Those tools were made to aid programmers in debugging their applications.There's more to it than that. CE is a generic tool.
Ultimately, it's the user/hacker/cheater that violates ZOS's TOS, not the maker of the tool(s).
3 -
Junipus✭✭✭✭✭A previous game I played did the following when something like this would arise.- Make a news statement on their website saying a exploit had been identified and warning players not to use it.
- Update the launcher to say a new declared exploit was in the game and linking back to the news article.
- Have the log-in/character selection screen show additional warnings about a new exploit and not to use it.
Not sure how much work is involved in the above but it would go a long way towards improving communication and showing the community at large ZOS is taking a hard stance on cheating/exploiting as well as giving everyone within the game a fair warning as to stop this without having to dig up the above quote and share it every time someone says it's not an exploit.
A noble endeavor and request, however each of the three above would likely be longer than the TOS and require ZOS to:
- Catalogue the number of exploits in their game
- Admit that there were/are a large number of exploits
- Police those exploits, reporting and enforcement actions
- Admit to the scale of previous/ongoing exploiting and cheating
- Prioritise bug fixing and other maintenance issues over pumping out DLC, something which i sincerely doubt ZOS has the financial capacity to do at this stage.
I'd love them to do it just as much as the next delusionally optimistic fan, but reality is shoving itself pretty unceremoniously in my face quite hard.The Legendary Nothing2
This discussion has been closed.