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Cheating and Exploits
-
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I dis-agree with both of your assertions.
Do that and unfortunately PVP aspect of this game will be dead, can you even imagine the lag the server would go thru every day? you dont need to take it to such an extreme point. You can always hide your code or encrypt it in a better way. It wont stop people who really want to hack or cheat in the game, but it will stop every other brain dead programming fool that doesn't know how to go around it. Not asking to stop it, it can't be stopped. I'd like ZOS to make cheating/hacking harder for some people at least because right now, every fool out there can do it.The real answer is always the same and one ZOS does not want to hear: NEVER TRUST THE CLIENT!!!
They need to move all client side trust to the server. It's the only way to really make this work.
First, i have worked on quite a few high traffic client/server systems, including game related systems as well as enterprise applications.
One *can* make a server side implementation work well enough to serve hundreds of players in real time *and* completely eliminate any client side trust.
Been there, done that, have the resume to prove it.
Secondly, all it takes is ONE good programmer that figures out how to get around all your client side "bandaids" to hide, encrypt or otherwise mangle your client side data. That one programmer then creates the next gen CE App and all the other armchair cheaters will be back in business.
3 -
Zoner✭✭✭✭Seems like a lot of people who weren't going to tolerate ZOS's lax approach to cheating and exploits have suddenly been appeased by the announcement of upscaled trials and new hairdos. Everything is great again huh?
Smh.NA EP
Seren Vedrano - EP NB
Geldis Vedrano -EP DK
Andewen Vedrano - EP Templar
Swiggity Swag - DC NB
Vashai The Impotent - AD DK
Sprints-With-Erect-Spine - EP Templar
Approved Inoffensive Name - EP Sorc
Serana Vedrano - EP DK
Cuckpoints - EP sorc7 -
Animal_Mother✭✭✭✭
Do that and unfortunately PVP aspect of this game will be dead, can you even imagine the lag the server would go thru every day? you dont need to take it to such an extreme point. You can always hide your code or encrypt it in a better way. It wont stop people who really want to hack or cheat in the game, but it will stop every other brain dead programming fool that doesn't know how to go around it. Not asking to stop it, it can't be stopped. I'd like ZOS to make cheating/hacking harder for some people at least because right now, every fool out there can do it.
CE probably generates a bunch of lag itself during PVP by flooding the server with false information. If I go to attack someone using a speedhack, my client has to tell the server to attack that person, then the server interrogates the other client for damage, only to find out the target is way out of range. Or attack the never dying 1vX cheat, where the server calculates damage and tries to apply it to the target but can't - target should be dead, but is still alive.
I'm speculating, of course. But bad data can't be good for the server.3 -
Chori✭✭✭✭
I dis-agree with both of your assertions.
Do that and unfortunately PVP aspect of this game will be dead, can you even imagine the lag the server would go thru every day? you dont need to take it to such an extreme point. You can always hide your code or encrypt it in a better way. It wont stop people who really want to hack or cheat in the game, but it will stop every other brain dead programming fool that doesn't know how to go around it. Not asking to stop it, it can't be stopped. I'd like ZOS to make cheating/hacking harder for some people at least because right now, every fool out there can do it.The real answer is always the same and one ZOS does not want to hear: NEVER TRUST THE CLIENT!!!
They need to move all client side trust to the server. It's the only way to really make this work.
First, i have worked on quite a few high traffic client/server systems, including game related systems as well as enterprise applications.
One *can* make a server side implementation work well enough to serve hundreds of players in real time *and* completely eliminate any client side trust.
Been there, done that, have the resume to prove it.
Secondly, all it takes is ONE good programmer that figures out how to get around all your client side "bandaids" to hide, encrypt or otherwise mangle your client side data. That one programmer then creates the next gen CE App and all the other armchair cheaters will be back in business.
I will put it this way, I have worked in the same related field and you are right it requires one good person and real time traffic can be done with good examples out there, Riot games being one of them. But again that requires money, you can't come here and pretend that Zenimax will spend the same amount of money some companies spent to have good real time traffic not have a bad effect on the servers. You need to offer a cheaper solution and something that provides us, a more possible window.
But again thats a lot of IF's. IF the person is good or not, IF the person wants or dont want to upload new code to the cheat engine open source code, IF Zenimax wants to invest that amout of money which I doubt, IF they can actually code and redirect their traffic in a better way which given these 2 years of experience as user I dont think it can be done the way you are asking them to.
You can dis-agree with me that's cool, but at the time to analyze the entire case you should take a look at the bigger picture. What would cost, if this is a reliable solution for this company, if it can be trusted. You are asking for impossible things to Zenimax as a company and you know it, please bring something real to them so maybe with your resume you can offer a cheaper and still viable, not the best but still useful step towards it.EP NA-PC - Invictus - Odem Mortis- Stamina NB Cat - ChoriB'Good
- Magicka NB High Elf - Lîndara
- Stam Sorc High Elf - Lindara Moonlight
- Red Guard Stamina DK - Chorî
- Red Guard Stamina Templar - Choripaninikinnie
- Magplar High Elf - Vagitarian Sillonour
2 -
Pomaikai✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.
People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.
Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.
Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).
Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.
The logical framework seems to operate as follows:
All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.
And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.
I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.
Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.
Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.
Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?
For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.
If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest
Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)
Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using
Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.
Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.
Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.
So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.
/facepalm
The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.
This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.
Same with Malubeth.
Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.
A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.
I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.
You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.
Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.
It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.
At what point have I ever said that all bugs were exploits? I never did. This was the logical fallacy that you used.
I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing.0 -
Pomaikai✭✭✭✭✭
✭They won't be forced to act until it affects console players. Console is their cash cow - it has by far the highest population and was the original planned market for the game. Until then we'll enjoy trigger-happy moderators with delete keys or talk in code. When console can support CE, then you'll see ZOS actually invest in the infrastructure to be able to detect it.
It already affects consoles. Console modding allows them to do the same things as CE allows on the PC.1 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.
People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.
Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.
Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).
Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.
The logical framework seems to operate as follows:
All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.
And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.
I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.
Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.
Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.
Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?
For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.
If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest
Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)
Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using
Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.
Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.
Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.
So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.
/facepalm
The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.
This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.
Same with Malubeth.
Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.
A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.
I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.
You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.
Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.
It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.
At what point have I ever said that all bugs were exploits? I never did. This was the logical fallacy that you used.
I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing.
You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
Malubeth is bugged. Using it gives people an advantage. Thamaturge is bugged for Templars on console. Anyone using it gets an unfair advantage.Edited by SwaminoNowlino on June 21, 2016 10:05PMXbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.
People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.
Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.
Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).
Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.
The logical framework seems to operate as follows:
All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.
And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.
I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.
Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.
Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.
Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?
For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.
If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest
Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)
Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using
Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.
Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.
Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.
So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.
/facepalm
The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.
This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.
Same with Malubeth.
Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.
A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.
I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.
You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.
Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.
It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.
At what point have I ever said that all bugs were exploits? I never did. This was the logical fallacy that you used.
I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing.
You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
Malubeth is bugged. Using it gives people an advantage. Thamaturge is bugged for Templars on console. Anyone using it gets an unfair advantage.
You're misreading.
He's not saying -all- bugs are exploits.
He's saying -some- bugs are exploitable.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?3 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭Animal_Mother wrote: »
Do that and unfortunately PVP aspect of this game will be dead, can you even imagine the lag the server would go thru every day? you dont need to take it to such an extreme point. You can always hide your code or encrypt it in a better way. It wont stop people who really want to hack or cheat in the game, but it will stop every other brain dead programming fool that doesn't know how to go around it. Not asking to stop it, it can't be stopped. I'd like ZOS to make cheating/hacking harder for some people at least because right now, every fool out there can do it.
CE probably generates a bunch of lag itself during PVP by flooding the server with false information.
It's good enough if someone spams whisper to bring you in trouble.
Only a work around helps, ignore the sender asap.
0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Which is why i (and others) have pointed out the shortcomings of the current trusted client to ZOS since early beta(!).I will put it this way, I have worked in the same related field and you are right it requires one good person and real time traffic can be done with good examples out there, Riot games being one of them. But again that requires money, you can't come here and pretend that Zenimax will spend the same amount of money some companies spent to have good real time traffic not have a bad effect on the servers. You need to offer a cheaper solution and something that provides us, a more possible window.
I'm not sure if you were around for PC launch and the bot disaster that followed in the days after. I was part of the super secret 24/7 beta group for the last 6 months before launch and we warned ZOS repeatedly about the vulnerabilities of their trusted client implementation.
They had the time (and presumably the money) to do this right ...
5 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.
People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.
Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.
Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).
Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.
The logical framework seems to operate as follows:
All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.
And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.
I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.
Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.
Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.
Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?
For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.
If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest
Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)
Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using
Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.
Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.
Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.
So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.
/facepalm
The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.
This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.
Same with Malubeth.
Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.
A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.
I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.
You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.
Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.
It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.
At what point have I ever said that all bugs were exploits? I never did. This was the logical fallacy that you used.
I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing.
You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
Malubeth is bugged. Using it gives people an advantage. Thamaturge is bugged for Templars on console. Anyone using it gets an unfair advantage.
You're misreading.
He's not saying -all- bugs are exploits.
He's saying -some- bugs are exploitable.
No I'm not misreading at all. The statement that once once again made is "using a bug in the game to gain and advantage... Is exploiting."
That's the statement once again made. It's irrefutable. So, following that logic. That absolute statement. Any use of a bug to gain an advantage is exploiting. Malubeth and Thamaturge are both bugged. The use of which provides an advantage. Therefore anyone using them is exploiting.
It's undeniable, that's the logic being presented. The problem is people make those statements out of some desire to receive some higher level of Internet morality, and don't follow through the logic of their statements to see if they hold up.
Do I think people using Malubeth are exploiting? Not really. Thaumaturge? Not really. So why would you argue that a low level Stam sorc who had the 1 point in implosion (or whatever the passive is) because they don't have the second point unlocked, also be exploiting? You cannot have it both ways. If you're going to be all big and bad and outraged, you have to own what you say. You can't pick and choose because it benefits you. So @Pomaikai cannot use Malubeth of Thamaturge or any gap closer because all of that is bugged and could give an unfair advantage over someone else.
It's irrefutable. "I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing."Edited by SwaminoNowlino on June 21, 2016 10:25PMXbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Which is why i (and others) have pointed out the shortcomings of the current trusted client to ZOS since early beta(!).I will put it this way, I have worked in the same related field and you are right it requires one good person and real time traffic can be done with good examples out there, Riot games being one of them. But again that requires money, you can't come here and pretend that Zenimax will spend the same amount of money some companies spent to have good real time traffic not have a bad effect on the servers. You need to offer a cheaper solution and something that provides us, a more possible window.
I'm not sure if you were around for PC launch and the bot disaster that followed in the days after. I was part of the super secret 24/7 beta group for the last 6 months before launch and we warned ZOS repeatedly about the vulnerabilities of their trusted client implementation.
They had the time (and presumably the money) to do this right ...
They did eventually kill the bots though.
So, I suspect in time they'll eventually handle the cheaters as well.
It -was- ugly there for a while though."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Xylphan✭✭✭✭
@XylphanThe simple/stupid detection method would be simply scanning the list of running processes on the machine. But that's simple and...well stupid. It's trivial to change the name of a process so any such detection method would fail.
The smarter detection method would use a signature check, similar to how malware and virus scanners work. That way a potential cheater could rename it however they want and the detection algorithm would still detect it.
An additional method that could be employed is to develop and use a heuristic that would detect applications like CE on a more generalized basis. There are certain characteristics that applications like CE use, and you could develop an algorithm to heuristically check whether applications/processes had similar characteristics. This allows you to cast a wide net, but no heuristic is perfect and will encounter false positives.
But this always leads to escalation. Obfuscation techniques, encryption, etc. all the tricks virus/malware writers use could be employed to evade detection leading to ever more complicated checking routines.
It's much simpler to simply plug the whole in the wall than it is to try and post guards around it. If they fix the flaw, there'd be no need to have detection routines for CE and similar applications because they would no longer work.
One could scan all running processes for the use of the Win32 function calls needed to read the memory of another process. I bet at any given time, most computers will *not* run a legit process that uses those library functions.
It's easy to enumerate the DLLs loaded by any process and if needed scan the whole process for use of those functions.
Of course, that only means that the next gen of cheating Apps would probably find a way to hide those function calls by building a function pointer in real time in a register or on the stack and not using precompiled calls at all.
The real answer is always the same and one ZOS does not want to hear: NEVER TRUST THE CLIENT!!!
They need to move all client side trust to the server. It's the only way to really make this work.
Could get around that by using a low-level system hook for memory access.
In any event, as myself and others (such as yourself) have stated, you simply cannot trust the client.1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Sort of ...ShedsHisTail wrote: »They did eventually kill the bots though.
So, I suspect in time they'll eventually handle the cheaters as well.
It -was- ugly there for a while though.
They eliminated some of the easier ways to bot. But they never completely got rid of it, to this day one can "teleport" around the map by changing the ESO process memory directly. It would be trivial to script this into a working bot.
But most importantly, they had to sacrifice the one and only thing that made them trust the client in the first place, which was processing speed of client/server data. In other words, their anti-bot "fix" is at least partially responsible for the *LAG* we've all come to love so much.
1 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.
People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.
Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.
Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).
Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.
The logical framework seems to operate as follows:
All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.
And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.
I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.
Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.
Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.
Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?
For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.
If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest
Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)
Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using
Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.
Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.
Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.
So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.
/facepalm
The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.
This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.
Same with Malubeth.
Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.
A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.
I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.
You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.
Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.
It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.
At what point have I ever said that all bugs were exploits? I never did. This was the logical fallacy that you used.
I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing.
You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
Malubeth is bugged. Using it gives people an advantage. Thamaturge is bugged for Templars on console. Anyone using it gets an unfair advantage.
You're misreading.
He's not saying -all- bugs are exploits.
He's saying -some- bugs are exploitable.
No I'm not misreading at all. The statement that once once again made is "using a bug in the game to gain and advantage... Is exploiting."
That's the statement once again made. It's irrefutable. So, following that logic. That absolute statement. Any use of a bug to gain an advantage is exploiting. Malubeth and Thamaturge are both bugged. The use of which provides an advantage. Therefore anyone using them is exploiting.
It's undeniable, that's the logic being presented. The problem is people make those statements out of some desire to receive some higher level of Internet morality, and don't follow through the logic of their statements to see if they hold up.
Do I think people using Malubeth are exploiting? Not really. Thaumaturge? Not really. So why would you argue that a low level Stam sorc who had the 1 point in implosion (or whatever the passive is) because they don't have the second point unlocked, also be exploiting? You cannot have it both ways. If you're going to be all big and bad and outraged, you have to own what you say. You can't pick and choose because it benefits you. So @Pomaikai cannot use Malubeth of Thamaturge or any gap closer because all of that is bugged and could give an unfair advantage over someone else.
It's irrefutable. "I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing."
You and I are talking about different things.
I was only addressing this:You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
He didn't contradict himself, you misread.
Edited by ShedsHisTail on June 21, 2016 10:31PM"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.
People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.
Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.
Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).
Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.
The logical framework seems to operate as follows:
All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.
And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.
I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.
Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.
Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.
Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?
For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.
If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest
Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)
Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using
Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.
Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.
Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.
So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.
/facepalm
The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.
This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.
Same with Malubeth.
Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.
A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.
I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.
You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.
Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.
It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.
At what point have I ever said that all bugs were exploits? I never did. This was the logical fallacy that you used.
I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing.
You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
Malubeth is bugged. Using it gives people an advantage. Thamaturge is bugged for Templars on console. Anyone using it gets an unfair advantage.
You're misreading.
He's not saying -all- bugs are exploits.
He's saying -some- bugs are exploitable.
No I'm not misreading at all. The statement that once once again made is "using a bug in the game to gain and advantage... Is exploiting."
That's the statement once again made. It's irrefutable. So, following that logic. That absolute statement. Any use of a bug to gain an advantage is exploiting. Malubeth and Thamaturge are both bugged. The use of which provides an advantage. Therefore anyone using them is exploiting.
It's undeniable, that's the logic being presented. The problem is people make those statements out of some desire to receive some higher level of Internet morality, and don't follow through the logic of their statements to see if they hold up.
Do I think people using Malubeth are exploiting? Not really. Thaumaturge? Not really. So why would you argue that a low level Stam sorc who had the 1 point in implosion (or whatever the passive is) because they don't have the second point unlocked, also be exploiting? You cannot have it both ways. If you're going to be all big and bad and outraged, you have to own what you say. You can't pick and choose because it benefits you. So @Pomaikai cannot use Malubeth of Thamaturge or any gap closer because all of that is bugged and could give an unfair advantage over someone else.
It's irrefutable. "I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing."
You and I are talking about different things.
I was only addressing this:You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
He didn't contradict himself, you misread.
You're incorrect because you're missing the context. In previous posts @Pomaikai has stated that anyone using any bug is exploiting. It was reiterated again here "I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing."
So to say I misread is incorrect. I did read. I've read everything. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in the logical argument that needs to be owned before you label people as cheaters. Because you can't hold yourself up to the same standard.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.
People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.
Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.
Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).
Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.
The logical framework seems to operate as follows:
All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.
And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.
I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.
Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.
Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.
Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?
For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.
If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest
Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)
Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using
Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.
Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.
Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.
So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.
/facepalm
The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.
This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.
Same with Malubeth.
Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.
A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.
I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.
You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.
Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.
It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.
At what point have I ever said that all bugs were exploits? I never did. This was the logical fallacy that you used.
I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing.
You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
Malubeth is bugged. Using it gives people an advantage. Thamaturge is bugged for Templars on console. Anyone using it gets an unfair advantage.
You're misreading.
He's not saying -all- bugs are exploits.
He's saying -some- bugs are exploitable.
No I'm not misreading at all. The statement that once once again made is "using a bug in the game to gain and advantage... Is exploiting."
That's the statement once again made. It's irrefutable. So, following that logic. That absolute statement. Any use of a bug to gain an advantage is exploiting. Malubeth and Thamaturge are both bugged. The use of which provides an advantage. Therefore anyone using them is exploiting.
It's undeniable, that's the logic being presented. The problem is people make those statements out of some desire to receive some higher level of Internet morality, and don't follow through the logic of their statements to see if they hold up.
Do I think people using Malubeth are exploiting? Not really. Thaumaturge? Not really. So why would you argue that a low level Stam sorc who had the 1 point in implosion (or whatever the passive is) because they don't have the second point unlocked, also be exploiting? You cannot have it both ways. If you're going to be all big and bad and outraged, you have to own what you say. You can't pick and choose because it benefits you. So @Pomaikai cannot use Malubeth of Thamaturge or any gap closer because all of that is bugged and could give an unfair advantage over someone else.
It's irrefutable. "I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing."
You and I are talking about different things.
I was only addressing this:You just contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.
I've never said that.
I have always stated that.
He didn't contradict himself, you misread.
You're incorrect because you're missing the context. In previous posts @Pomaikai has stated that anyone using any bug is exploiting. It was reiterated again here "I have always stated that using a bug in the game to gain an advantage for yourself, or for personal gain is exploiting. The TOS that we all agreed to says the exact same thing."
So to say I misread is incorrect. I did read. I've read everything. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in the logical argument that needs to be owned before you label people as cheaters. Because you can't hold yourself up to the same standard.
The -only- context I was interested in was your statement that he had contradicted himself in the span of two sentences in his previous post; which he did not. Anything beyond that was not part of the context of my statement.
I will no longer argue semantics with you.
The last word is yours. Make it good.
Edited by ShedsHisTail on June 21, 2016 10:37PM"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?2 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Hey Alan, 14 pages and this guy is still here boasting about how he's exploiting bugs in the game to get an advantage over other players.So you just admitted to exploiting a game bug with the intention to continue to do so and you find nothing wrong with other people doing the same.
Here's where this gets really ridiculous. If i was to post what i really think of you and what you're doing at a minimum my post would be deleted, at worst, i get banned from these forums.
You on the other hand are free to admit exploiting bugs in the game and come here an boast about it, and ZOS will do nothing about that at all.
@ZOS_AlanG seriously?
How many more pages before i'm allowed to voice my opinion without the fear of getting banned?
6 -
Xylphan✭✭✭✭
@XylphanThe simple/stupid detection method would be simply scanning the list of running processes on the machine. But that's simple and...well stupid. It's trivial to change the name of a process so any such detection method would fail.
The smarter detection method would use a signature check, similar to how malware and virus scanners work. That way a potential cheater could rename it however they want and the detection algorithm would still detect it.
An additional method that could be employed is to develop and use a heuristic that would detect applications like CE on a more generalized basis. There are certain characteristics that applications like CE use, and you could develop an algorithm to heuristically check whether applications/processes had similar characteristics. This allows you to cast a wide net, but no heuristic is perfect and will encounter false positives.
But this always leads to escalation. Obfuscation techniques, encryption, etc. all the tricks virus/malware writers use could be employed to evade detection leading to ever more complicated checking routines.
It's much simpler to simply plug the whole in the wall than it is to try and post guards around it. If they fix the flaw, there'd be no need to have detection routines for CE and similar applications because they would no longer work.
One could scan all running processes for the use of the Win32 function calls needed to read the memory of another process. I bet at any given time, most computers will *not* run a legit process that uses those library functions.
It's easy to enumerate the DLLs loaded by any process and if needed scan the whole process for use of those functions.
Of course, that only means that the next gen of cheating Apps would probably find a way to hide those function calls by building a function pointer in real time in a register or on the stack and not using precompiled calls at all.
The real answer is always the same and one ZOS does not want to hear: NEVER TRUST THE CLIENT!!!
They need to move all client side trust to the server. It's the only way to really make this work.
Do that and unfortunately PVP aspect of this game will be dead, can you even imagine the lag the server would go thru every day? you dont need to take it to such an extreme point. You can always hide your code or encrypt it in a better way. It wont stop people who really want to hack or cheat in the game, but it will stop every other brain dead programming fool that doesn't know how to go around it. Not asking to stop it, it can't be stopped. I'd like ZOS to make cheating/hacking harder for some people at least because right now, every fool out there can do it.
You cannot "hide" or "encrypt" the client side code in any way that can't be trivially reversed. Encryption requires the key, which would have to be transmitted to the client and thus easily plucked from the data stream (not to mention the added overhead). You also cannot hide values of memory that need to change in order to update game state. Worst case is simply trial and error and process of elimination.
As far as performance goes, if the game has problems scaling it's a result of design/implementation issues (or possibly architecture/hardware related). There's no reason why any decently powered set of racks can't handle a large scale PvP battle. It's not running fluid dynamics simulations or high res climate models, both of which require considerably more processing power and bandwidth than an MMO. But without know what their backend looks like I could only guess at the possible issues.
Regardless, if the game is trivial to hack then how laggy PvP is isn't going to matter because no one will want to play.4 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭@SirAndy there hasn't been a single person in this thread boating about exploiting. Post a screenshot of your champ points (if you're on console) to prove you have no points in Thamaturge. Show that you're not using Malubeth. Both are bugged. Both, according to your metric, are giving an unfair advantage and are exploitable. Therefore ANYONE using those are exploiting. And should be banned.
Again, I haven't even played my Stam sorc since Orsinimum. And I checked and have storm calling maxed out and two points in there!
ALL I'm saying is you all rush, without using logic or reasoning, to label everyone exploiters and cheaters. If you carry your line of reasoning out, you can see it fall apart. Sorry the truth hurts man. I expect you to spend 3k to unspec out of Thamaturge and then 3k to spec back in when it's fixed.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Another day of cheating gone by...
Another day of silence and inaction from ZOS.....
Another day current and potential cheaters worry less about losing accounts......
A cheater could name their character Cheats-Without-Consequences ® and still not get perma banned.
3 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm at work but i can post a screenshot tonight.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@SirAndy there hasn't been a single person in this thread boating about exploiting. Post a screenshot of your champ points (if you're on console) to prove you have no points in Thamaturge. Show that you're not using Malubeth. Both are bugged. Both, according to your metric, are giving an unfair advantage and are exploitable. Therefore ANYONE using those are exploiting. And should be banned.
I just happen to have neither Malubeth nor points in Thamaturge (Actually, i have at least 1 point in everything, which i guess technically makes me a very tiny exploiter).
PS: And i'm on PC, not console ...Edited by SirAndy on June 21, 2016 11:03PM1 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭
I'm at work but i can post a screenshot tonight.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@SirAndy there hasn't been a single person in this thread boating about exploiting. Post a screenshot of your champ points (if you're on console) to prove you have no points in Thamaturge. Show that you're not using Malubeth. Both are bugged. Both, according to your metric, are giving an unfair advantage and are exploitable. Therefore ANYONE using those are exploiting. And should be banned.
I just happen to have neither Malubeth nor points in Thamaturge (Actually, i have 1 point in everything, which i guess technically makes me a very tiny exploiter).
PS: And i'm on PC, not console ...
I'm not calling you an exploiter man. I don't even care that much. But if people are going to come in here and equate Zenimax's lousy job with using Cheat Engine, I'm going to call them on their crap. Because the standard being set is one that they don't even follow. If you were on console, and honestly believed what you all are saying in your outrage, then you'd best have zero points in Thamaturge. Or you can use logic and reason to see that their is patently a difference and that would be ridiculous. That is all I'm saying. All.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Except, i never did that.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »But if people are going to come in here and equate Zenimax's lousy job with using Cheat Engine, I'm going to call them on their crap.
If you go back to my posts you'll see that i always use the terms exploit and cheat/hack in context.
Exploiting an in-game bug is *not* the same as hacking the client memory with CE or a similar App.
But that doesn't mean knowingly exploiting in-game bugs is somehow OK, it's still a *** thing to do ...
3 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭
Fair enough. Didn't mean to attribute that to you in particular.
Except, i never did that.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »But if people are going to come in here and equate Zenimax's lousy job with using Cheat Engine, I'm going to call them on their crap.
If you go back to my posts you'll see that i always use the terms exploit and cheat/hack in context.
Exploiting an in-game bug is *not* the same as hacking the client memory with CE or a similar App.
But that doesn't mean knowingly exploiting in-game bugs is somehow OK, it's still a *** thing to do ...
The basis of the discussion was someone stating a Stam sorc who had a point into that passive, even if they couldn't allocate two at the time, was cheating and should be banned. And to avoid cheating they needed to go reset their skills and only allocate a point there when they could put both in.
I'm arguing that's patently ridiculous. The same logic dictates that everyone on console must reset their CP until the Thamaturge bug is fixed. The same logic dictates no one can use Malubeth. The same logic dictates that no one can use gap closers.
Alternatively, we could do something constructive and, instead of labeling everyone who plays the game a cheater, we could all say "Hey Zenimax, why are you releasing crap code? How do you keep breaking things? How is this acceptable? Would you pay for it?"
Cheat engine users are a whole different story. That demands outrage at both parties. But again, I chose to attempt to be constructive and hold Zenimax accountable for letting this happen. And for not fixing it. And for not talking to us. Because again, if the shoe were on the other foot, they would be mighty dissatisfied customers.
Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Submitted more video today of 2 people running CE . It's really annoying this is still going on .4 -
Arthg✭✭✭✭✭
✭Now sing along, folks:
Don't know much about gamin'
That's why I got engine
One of my thumbs is shorter than the other
'N' both my hands too long
'Course now right along with 'em
I got no natural clickin'
But I go gamin' every night
Hopin' one day I might get it right
I'm a gamin'fool, I'm a
Gamin' fool
I hear that cheat; I jump outa my seat
But I can't compete, cause I'm a
Gamin' fool, I'm a
Gamin' fool
The guildie folks all dressed up
Like they's fit to kill
I walk on in 'n' see 'em there
Gonna give them all a kill
When they see me comin'
They all steps aside
They has a fit while I commit
My social suicide,
I'm a Gamin' fool,
I'm a Gamin' fool
The cheat goes on
And ZOS's so wrong
The cheat goes on
And ZOS's so wrong
The cheat goes on'n'ZOS's so wrong
The cheat goes on 'n'ZOS's so wrong
The cheat goes on 'n'ZOS's so wrong
I may be totally wrong, but I'm a
Gamin'fool, I'm a
Gamin' fool
https://youtube.com/watch?v=PSdkPMc7aEo&t=1m46s
Sorry Frank. Hope you're having a good laugh where you are.PC/EU. NoCP PvP. sDK Orc IRL. Flawless tamperor. Pro scrub.3 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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@SwaminoNowlino | Here you go ...
I'm at work but i can post a screenshot tonight.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@SirAndy there hasn't been a single person in this thread boating about exploiting. Post a screenshot of your champ points (if you're on console) to prove you have no points in Thamaturge. Show that you're not using Malubeth. Both are bugged. Both, according to your metric, are giving an unfair advantage and are exploitable. Therefore ANYONE using those are exploiting. And should be banned.
I just happen to have neither Malubeth nor points in Thamaturge (Actually, i have at least 1 point in everything, which i guess technically makes me a very tiny exploiter).
PS: And i'm on PC, not console ...
0 -
Manpoints✭✭✭✭Any statement on actually banning hackers or any of the 7 others points brought up on every page?
GM of Potato Syndicate, (Gone' Casual) ---- I'MZ A GOD!
GM of Mi Amor Libre Spanish ERP ---- Shadilay
Manpoints - Templar // Womanpoints - DK // Abopoints - NB // Manepoints - NB // Sexypoints - Sorc // Hermann Purring - DK // Browniepoints - Templar // Tigger SMB - Templar // Affirmative Actionpoints - DK // Sha Bipoints - Sorc // Hughe Mungus - DK // Rachel Dolezol - Warden??1
This discussion has been closed.