Official Feedback Thread for Templars

AfkNinja

timidobserver wrote: »

*Constructive Feedback*

-Feedback directly related to the changes that were made ion the PTS-

Ritual of Retribution- When comparing Ritual of Retribution's damage to similar skills(Eruption, Liquid Lightning, Twisting Path, Wall of Elements), the damage is not competitive. All of those skills do more damage in 1 second than Ritual of Retribution does in 2 seconds. Either double the damage of Ritual of Retribution, make the damage portion of this skills tick every 1 second, or add some kind of increasing damage effect. If the damage was in line with similar skills, the removal of Purifying Ritual would be slightly more palatable.

Ritual of Retribution should do 2x the dmg of the healing and scale in strength for each consecutive tick of dmg they take from it. It should encourage people to move OUT of our house, not ignore it.

Solariken

The change to the number of effects cleansed by Ritual seems really painful, but I do see the necessity for it.

The damage of Rit of Ret certainly needs an increase though and I think it should scale via ((magicka + spellpwr)+(stamina + wpn per))/2 OR the greater of the two. This is a class-defining ability and should remain useful to Stamplars.

Now, with the reduction of cleansed effects, I would also like to see

1) Intelligent Cleanse prioritization - for example I want to ALWAYS purge things like Daedric Curse and Major Defile.

2) More sensible debuffing attached to abilities. For example, there is no reason that a spammable, high DPS ability should also apply a debuff (I'm looking at you, Surprise Attack O.o). Nightblades are prime examples of the problem created by the change to Ritual - when they jump you from stealth, they put 5-7 (or more) debuffs on you immediately. If the change to Ritual is made without concurrent buffs, Templars are going to be super vulnerable.

dantheman1972

Can someone test power of light and purifying light against shields? I had looked forward to it after the TG changes, however I learned if you don't penetrate the shields during the 6 seconds (thanks to shield stacking), it does a whopping 19 points of damage. I.e., it's not proc-ing from damage done, but health damage received.

With Stam users having a shield just as viable as magic users in DB, I fear this great ability will be yet another completely useless Templar ability.

staracino_ESO

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262102/quick-cast-ground-abilities#latest I'll leave this here. Nice option for shards.

staracino_ESO

Why is our core class skill being balanced to be on par with purge? Why not make purge remove more effects? It should for the amount of magicka that it costs.

Ashamray

Purifing Ritual was an excellent ability that doesn't require any changes.
BRING IT BACK.

Laurentia

Solariken wrote: »

The change to the number of effects cleansed by Ritual seems really painful, but I do see the necessity for it.

The damage of Rit of Ret certainly needs an increase though and I think it should scale via ((magicka + spellpwr)+(stamina + wpn per))/2 OR the greater of the two. This is a class-defining ability and should remain useful to Stamplars.

Now, with the reduction of cleansed effects, I would also like to see

1) Intelligent Cleanse prioritization - for example I want to ALWAYS purge things like Daedric Curse and Major Defile.

2) More sensible debuffing attached to abilities. For example, there is no reason that a spammable, high DPS ability should also apply a debuff (I'm looking at you, Surprise Attack O.o). Nightblades are prime examples of the problem created by the change to Ritual - when they jump you from stealth, they put 5-7 (or more) debuffs on you immediately. If the change to Ritual is made without concurrent buffs, Templars are going to be super vulnerable.

In my opinion they should just make it cleanse 5 effects again, the increased cost however can justified by the ground dot.
As you mentioned many skills apply multiple debuffs and it's not uncommon to need 2+ casts of purifying ritual (on live) just to get out of a root, while getting rerooted at a rate of 5 bombards/sec.

@Wrobel

It is a class defining skill, it's the foundation of our house and it has already been nerfed last patch so please show merci Mr. Wrobel

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Solariken wrote: »

The change to the number of effects cleansed by Ritual seems really painful, but I do see the necessity for it.

Do share...I don't so it would help to get a perspective on why someone would conclude it's the right decision for the class moving forward.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

dantheman1972 wrote: »

Can someone test power of light and purifying light against shields? I had looked forward to it after the TG changes, however I learned if you don't penetrate the shields during the 6 seconds (thanks to shield stacking), it does a whopping 19 points of damage. I.e., it's not proc-ing from damage done, but health damage received.

With Stam users having a shield just as viable as magic users in DB, I fear this great ability will be yet another completely useless Templar ability.

Always been that way and hasn't changed.

player_klaus

wut, ppl wont "melt" in the ritual of retribution? @Wrobel

dodgehopper_ESO

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Even with the snare and ground dot added to my house, I would still rather have the enemies outside of my house instead of in it. A weak snare and weak dot are not enough incentive for me to get into melee range with a stam user.

Actually lets think about this. If you're trying to tank as a Templar, the snare and dot aren't so bad. It at least solves one of the issues I had playing my Templar, which was the exorbitant costs of Caltrops making it impossible to properly cc a crowd.
All of that being said I will miss having the 5-pc cleanse as well, but I can see a benefit here anyway.

dodgehopper_ESO

blabafat wrote: »

Don't know what is up with toppling charge, but it's a lot slower. When you see someone charging you with it, it's very easy to act before it hits you. It's as if you charge up to them, but you hesitate in the air before hitting the aedric spear. It's super predictable.

That sums up the greatest weakness of the class. "It's super predictable."

staracino_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Even with the snare and ground dot added to my house, I would still rather have the enemies outside of my house instead of in it. A weak snare and weak dot are not enough incentive for me to get into melee range with a stam user.

Actually lets think about this. If you're trying to tank as a Templar, the snare and dot aren't so bad. It at least solves one of the issues I had playing my Templar, which was the exorbitant costs of Caltrops making it impossible to properly cc a crowd.
All of that being said I will miss having the 5-pc cleanse as well, but I can see a benefit here anyway.

This is true, but I was speaking from more of a PvP perspective, where I use it almost exclusively as a cleanse. Taking the only morph that most people ever use and making it good for only tanking is not really a good change. In Pvp, I never place my ritual with the intention of getting my enemies inside of it, and I hardly ever place it with the intention of using it to heal my allies, since they usually wont even stay in it. I rely on other heals to get that done.

Also, I want to reiterate that extending the duration of ritual as a morph effect is extremely weak. If we are losing the better morph, this one needs to get something else.

dodgehopper_ESO

staracino_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Even with the snare and ground dot added to my house, I would still rather have the enemies outside of my house instead of in it. A weak snare and weak dot are not enough incentive for me to get into melee range with a stam user.

Actually lets think about this. If you're trying to tank as a Templar, the snare and dot aren't so bad. It at least solves one of the issues I had playing my Templar, which was the exorbitant costs of Caltrops making it impossible to properly cc a crowd.
All of that being said I will miss having the 5-pc cleanse as well, but I can see a benefit here anyway.

This is true, but I was speaking from more of a PvP perspective, where I use it almost exclusively as a cleanse. Taking the only morph that most people ever use and making it good for only tanking is not really a good change. In Pvp, I never place my ritual with the intention of getting my enemies inside of it, and I hardly ever place it with the intention of using it to heal my allies, since they usually wont even stay in it. I rely on other heals to get that done.

Also, I want to reiterate that extending the duration of ritual as a morph effect is extremely weak. If we are losing the better morph, this one needs to get something else.

I'm not denying that, the hit to the cleanse hurts. The 5part cleanse is the same choice I made for my characters. I always found the HoT to be a joke, and I'm sure many others did as well. I will say this though, by giving Templars a large aoe snare it helps us in the sense that we really needed SOMETHING when it came to CC. While snares are slushy cc, it helps a lot. Snares are also useful for bringing someone down, so I can see its usage in pvp, pve, and elsewhere. I think where we really get hurt here though is that its 1 step forward and POSSIBLY 2 steps back, because the loss of some cleanses, particularly in an environment where we expect to see more debuffs. I agree they should give us an option somewhere to have more cleanses, it is the best part of Templar defense right now (which already says something about our defenses, unless we're a healer).

staracino_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Even with the snare and ground dot added to my house, I would still rather have the enemies outside of my house instead of in it. A weak snare and weak dot are not enough incentive for me to get into melee range with a stam user.

Actually lets think about this. If you're trying to tank as a Templar, the snare and dot aren't so bad. It at least solves one of the issues I had playing my Templar, which was the exorbitant costs of Caltrops making it impossible to properly cc a crowd.
All of that being said I will miss having the 5-pc cleanse as well, but I can see a benefit here anyway.

This is true, but I was speaking from more of a PvP perspective, where I use it almost exclusively as a cleanse. Taking the only morph that most people ever use and making it good for only tanking is not really a good change. In Pvp, I never place my ritual with the intention of getting my enemies inside of it, and I hardly ever place it with the intention of using it to heal my allies, since they usually wont even stay in it. I rely on other heals to get that done.

Also, I want to reiterate that extending the duration of ritual as a morph effect is extremely weak. If we are losing the better morph, this one needs to get something else.

I'm not denying that, the hit to the cleanse hurts. The 5part cleanse is the same choice I made for my characters. I always found the HoT to be a joke, and I'm sure many others did as well. I will say this though, by giving Templars a large aoe snare it helps us in the sense that we really needed SOMETHING when it came to CC. While snares are slushy cc, it helps a lot. Snares are also useful for bringing someone down, so I can see its usage in pvp, pve, and elsewhere. I think where we really get hurt here though is that its 1 step forward and POSSIBLY 2 steps back, because the loss of some cleanses, particularly in an environment where we expect to see more debuffs. I agree they should give us an option somewhere to have more cleanses, it is the best part of Templar defense right now (which already says something about our defenses, unless we're a healer).

Maybe if they made it so that we can target where it goes. Right now the way that it always appears behind you when you are running will make it very difficult to snare someone who is running from you. And the people who I want to trap: sorcs, nbs and bow users, have streak, and dodgeroll to get out of it. Not sure if cloak will work on it.
And I will refer you to my suggestion of making 1 morph cleanse 4-5 effects and provide a small, instant self-heal with no ground-placed hot.

Solariken

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The change to the number of effects cleansed by Ritual seems really painful, but I do see the necessity for it.

Do share...I don't so it would help to get a perspective on why someone would conclude it's the right decision for the class moving forward.

I'm not saying they SHOULD gut the ability like that, or that it's the "right" change, but there is no denying that it's one of those skills that can completely nullify DoT/debuff builds. Debuffs should be meaningful, but in the current meta they just aren't because they are so easily and cheaply wiped away.

The problem of course is that, in typical ZOS fashion, I'm sure we will eat this massive nerf without the necessary buffs in other areas to compensate.

Zheg

Solariken wrote: »

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The change to the number of effects cleansed by Ritual seems really painful, but I do see the necessity for it.

Do share...I don't so it would help to get a perspective on why someone would conclude it's the right decision for the class moving forward.

I'm not saying they SHOULD gut the ability like that, or that it's the "right" change, but there is no denying that it's one of those skills that can completely nullify DoT/debuff builds. Debuffs should be meaningful, but in the current meta they just aren't because they are so easily and cheaply wiped away.

The problem of course is that, in typical ZOS fashion, I'm sure we will eat this massive nerf without the necessary buffs in other areas to compensate.

They really aren't though. First of all, purge is not a smart cleanse. If you have 10 people in a group and you all get hit by a fire treb, casting purge twice will not necessarily remove the debuff from all 10. Second, purge removes 2 debuffs and is expensive. Purify used to remove 5. Do you know how easy it is to apply two debuffs? Most skills have secondary effects or passives that snare. Templars being able to cleanse 5 debuffs just meant that particular class was able to counter DoT builds better, which should be fine considering the inherent defenses that other classes get in comparison. I don't see how that translates to debuffs no longer being meaningful. It just means you're countered by a templar, just like a ranged build is countered by a DK.

Sk000tch

staracino_ESO wrote: »

This is true, but I was speaking from more of a PvP perspective, where I use it almost exclusively as a cleanse. Taking the only morph that most people ever use and making it good for only tanking is not really a good change. In Pvp, I never place my ritual with the intention of getting my enemies inside of it, and I hardly ever place it with the intention of using it to heal my allies, since they usually wont even stay in it. I rely on other heals to get that done.

Also, I want to reiterate that extending the duration of ritual as a morph effect is extremely weak. If we are losing the better morph, this one needs to get something else.

It has other uses, the major mending proc is huge and the HOT is useful to proc transmutation for that build (limited by 2 sec tick), but otherwise I completely agree.

I really hate this trend away from mitigation. Purify was balanced with purge at 5. Purge much better in group when mobile, purify cost less, proc's major mending, but required synergy. It was still good stationary and excellent for self. The snare is cool I guess, but the damage is meaningless.

All that's left is the proc of major mending, which isn't enough (and can be obtained in other ways). The end result is more purge spam (which gives enough regen when slotted to almost offset cost difference), which we've been told is a major contributor to cyro lag.

staracino_ESO

So how about that reduced cost to Rushed Ceremony and its morphs since it has been nerfed for two consecutive quarters now?

Joy_Division

Can I ask for a refund on my Templar?

Back in July 2015:

• My Toppling Charge may have locked me in the animation during lagfests, but at least the ability actually otherwise actually functioned and wasn't so slooooooooooooow
• My Sweeps healed me for 40% (I still havent forgotten this nerf) and had a crit heal chance
• My Channeled Focus restored my magicka for 18 seconds regardless of where I stood
• My Blazing Spear did more damage and had double damage ticks for Burning Light procs
• My Eclipse, although awkward and clumsy, could potentially actually defend me in a AvAvA environment.
• My Purifying Ritual actually cleansed me of a NB marked target and protected me Vs. projectiles
• My Breath of Life had an extra heal and wasn't stopped by a random tree

I'll trade the 12% damage to Dark Flares and the 25% healing from the restoration staff that I don't use for all that stuff back.

I have *ZERO* idea exactly who and where ZoS is getting your templar feedback from. I can't say I perused every single thread, but let me take a wild guess as to what people complained about the class: RADIANT DESTRUCTION. Somehow, ZoS interpreted this to mean: "Wow, PvPers are *really* mad that Templars are able to cleanse themselves of multiple debuffs, so let's nerf Purifying Ritual."

Wut?

I know ZoS is trying to make the class more interesting to play, but why is it nerf to what we templars like about the class has to accompany this changes we didn't ask for?

I mean, I understand the new Ritual of Retribution was meant to be our long awaited "House" that snared and damaged enemies, stuff I can get behind. HOWEVER, why was it deemed necessary to take away the one feature to Purifying Ritual that we actually cared about - the cleanse - to give us a weak DoT that is non-competitive? The same could be said for Eclipse. I don't recall many templars asking for a more expensive and less damaging velocious curse, but that's what we got while its (already questionable) defensive capability was all but stripped away. Didn't the many people complaining about templars "abusing" breath of life say - loudly - their biggest issue was the LoS thing. Now that they got that, can we get the extra heal back? Or at least a cost reduction? I mean, breath was nerfed .... and we haven't flocked to Healing Ritual, which was one of those supposed desirable alternatives we were supposed to get in return.

So there is a theme here: the desirable aspects of Templar abilities gets nerfed and replaced with stuff we'd rather not use.

I don't expect ZoS to come up with an Eclipse that I or the other 98% of templars who have forsaken the ability would want to slot on their bars, reconsider the double nerf Breath of Life got over the past 2 patches, or *gasp* make us actually think about the Radiant Aura morph, but this Ritual of Retribution is a skill up for feedback during this patch and it's totally busted. Zos: you all but ignored us despite 80+ pages last patch, its one skill, which happens to be our sole remaining defining defensive ability ... PLEASE GET THIS RIGHT.

The absolute #1 use and priority for this skill, why we specifically chose it over the Extended morph, is to remove debuffs. If it does not do this, the ability is a failure and the magicka is wasted. Period. ALL other benefits, however appealing and beneficial they may be, are ancillary.

A low and slow damaging ground DoT is *not* worth cleansing 3 debuffs. It's not. Here is an illustration why low damaging DoTs are poor offensive choices in the post Battlespirit PvP environment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJJb863umd4

This skill ticks four times in two seconds and my health bar does not move and I'm just standing there, not even using a HoT. Mitigation is high, the resilient passive in the CP system almost cancels out the damage, and self healing comes so easy that low damage DoTs are pretty much pointless to use. The best ground DoT in the game in the Sorcerer Lightning Flood, which does way more damage than the proposed Ritual of Retribution and has an excellent synergy option to boot, and it is a skill I rarely see used (and make little effort to avoid). Skills such as this are good in PvE Vs. NPCs, it's not what those players who picked Purifying, the PvP morph, are necessarily looking for. Of course, any extra damage is welcome, but I can say with confidence that most experienced PvP players would prefer the old morph.

I don't understand why the weak DoT cannot accompany the 5 debuffs. Why is it that in order to finally have a "house," our sole remaining defining defensive skill has to get gutted to be, what is in effect, a poor man's Purge (I mean, if I am in a group, should't I cast purge instead since I will get rid of the same 2 debuffs on me AND automatically remove 2 from 6 teammates without them having to waste a global cooldown?). Everyone has access to purge, where is our templar distinctiveness that is supposed to be so cherished?

John_1999

I have tested the Magica Templar on pts, the costs for abilities are too high, especially for Azura PVP.

As I know, there is a counter to each skill, so if a NB puts 3 debuffs on you with one skill, it should be possible to remove
3 debuffs on you with one skill and not spam Ritual of Retribution over and over again. Pls don't change that beautyfull Templar skill. That's a huge nerf especially for Azura PVP, because the costs are way higher, its not only a little bit higher.

This and some other changes don't allow variety in PVP Azura. You have now do everything to have more regen or more cost reduction to survive instead of for example impenetrable traits on armour.

When I saw the changes to heavy armour in the patch notes, I thought I give full heavy armour a try in PVP with my magica Templar, but the increased costs and with full heavy even more and the nerf to Ritual of Retribution its not an option anymore.

13oot5straps

Yes I would like the old ritual back, thank you zos for asking. Or...maybe the ritual can have each progressive level include an additional debuff that it is able to cleanse, or...maybe 2 debuffs are guaranteed to be cleansed on cast with logarithmic diminishing chance to remove additional effects, such as 2 debuffs cleanest on cast with a 60% chance to remove one additional effect, 18% chance to remove 4 debufss and a 3% chance to remove 5 debuffs. Maybe a passive can increase chance by 10% while standing in my house?

13oot5straps

Or maybe with each skill from tree it adds one additional effect removed or an additional chance? Other than that I'm counting down the minutes until DB because you have outdone yourself zos, the dlc looks absolutely amazing!

Zheg

I actually like the balance changes in general in this patch, though I have serious concerns about bone shield and negate being overtuned for the new meta - we'll see. When it comes to class changes though ... good grief. The funny thing is that purge will probably be BETTER than ritual for everyone but a stamplar because not only will it help 5 allies but you'll get +10 % magicka regen from the passive. I'll just have to play hokey-pokey with my focus more and not rely on standing in purify. A meta where I don't even slot purify on my bar? I would have called you bananas if you told me that months ago.

@Wrobel we get that you're trying to make the class actually look more like the 'dangerous house' vision, but gutting the cleanse from this skill removes its purpose for most templars. Most will not use it for the 30% snare, most won't even notice the damage. I kid you not when I tell you that purge will be better for a healer/magplar to slot instead of purify, and that should speak to the problem with this nerf. I'll probably be even more cranky after a week because now I'm forced to stand inside my dumb channeled focus every 2 seconds. Bump the cleanse up to 5, or 4 if you truly are convinced it needs to be nerfed.

And if you think people should still slot purify over purge because of the synergy opportunity for the group, most HATE the purify synergy because it constantly gets in the way of important synergies like gravity crush and shackle.

tinythinker

Joy_Division wrote: »

I have *ZERO* idea exactly who and where ZoS is getting your templar feedback from. I can't say I perused every single thread, but let me take a wild guess as to what people complained about the class: RADIANT DESTRUCTION. Somehow, ZoS interpreted this to mean: "Wow, PvPers are *really* mad that Templars are able to cleanse themselves of multiple debuffs, so let's nerf Purifying Ritual."

Wut?

I know ZoS is trying to make the class more interesting to play, but why is it nerf to what we templars like about the class has to accompany this changes we didn't ask for?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2915031/#Comment_2915031

EgoRush

As a Templar more focused on PvE I am in complete agreement that the wrong morph of Cleansing Ritual was changed to Retribution. I would much prefer that Purifying Ritual was returned to how it was and Extended Ritual was swapped to Retribution. Then make the damage tick every second to bring it more in line with things like Eruption. I don't think the damage should be as higher as other class DoTs because we are also healing with this skill. But the damage it currently seems to be doing is negligible.

MissBizz

I'm just a simple gal, but I'm a bit confused on something.

I seem to recall discussions (I believe it was on ESO live) where it was explained that Zos wanted there to actually be a choice when it comes to morphs. As in "oooh... this one does X.. but this one does Y! I wonder which I should choose!"

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Purifying Ritual was THE morph. I really don't know many people who have chosen Extended Ritual. It was suggested previously to change Extended Ritual to something different, so it would actually make you THINK about what morph you wanted. The two morphs would have been for different scenarios and would actually make it a more difficult choice on which one to use.

It was then decided to take the popular morph, completely change it, where it's probably still a bit better than the other morph (for a different reason) - but now it doesn't accomplish what it did (and why many folks chose it) PLUS extended ritual is still meh.

So rather than making 2 morphs actually possibly useful... folks may then instead say "Well, might as well take this class skill off my bar. There's better options elsewhere"

Am I on the right track?

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Solariken wrote: »

I'm not saying they SHOULD gut the ability like that, or that it's the "right" change, but there is no denying that it's one of those skills that can completely nullify DoT/debuff builds. Debuffs should be meaningful, but in the current meta they just aren't because they are so easily and cheaply wiped away.

The problem of course is that, in typical ZOS fashion, I'm sure we will eat this massive nerf without the necessary buffs in other areas to compensate.

What Zheg said. Purifying Ritual was never able to nullify Dots/Debuffs. You get hit with so many so quickly that it was only useful to try to get rid of the important crippling negative effects that hit you. Half at best were really worth being concerned with. With removing 5, the chances were pretty good that if you needed to get rid of say Defile in the sea of 5+ other effects on you. Defile and maybe another desired effect would get removed while the other 3 were whatever. Now with only removing 2; we're either going to be forced to deal with it or spamcast Purifying, rolling the RNG each time hoping you get rid of the one you need out of the # currently on you. All while new ones can be reapplied on you faster than you can remove them. It's simply a losing battle in the current combat scenario, even worse when DB goes live. If the rate of speed that these effects can be placed was a lot slower or there wasn't so many negative effects in the game, 2 would be fine.

Compared to other classes we don't have any meaningful access to shields, nor do we have the necessary mobility to get away from attackers. We rely on healing and being able to deal with the barrage of effects our attackers put on us. This makes negative effects OP against us more than any other class since our defense against them is clearly going to be exploited due to the limitations of the class.

As far as an intelligence system for prioritizing which negative effect gets removed first. Won't work because different playstyles with have different priorities. A player playing a Templar as a healer won't be as concerned with the same negative effect that someone playing them as a DPS class would. Same with any of the other archetypes, like a tank or whether your a Stamplar and Magplar.

I say (AGAIN) leave Purifying alone and change Extended to Retribution and increase the damage/heal. Issue solved!

cazlonb16_ESO

That's assuming decreasing the number of effects cleansed wasn't the primary purpose of the change and the damage dome just "compensation".

Laurentia

MissBizz wrote: »

Am I on the right track?

Yes, you are. As you said there is still no reason to choose the longer duration morph, while purifying (now retribution) is way worse than before, resulting in efficient purge probably beeing the better tool.
I can't emphasise enough how essential purifying ritual is to every templar build, no matter if stamina or magicka.

Zenimax, please don't nerf this skill into oblivion.