Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

@MissBizz yep. Retribution would be a neat alternative to players who want that playstyle. Needs a buff to the damage and heal though.

MissBizz

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

@MissBizz yep. Retribution would be a neat alternative to players who want that playstyle. Needs a buff to the damage and heal though.

Yeah. I haven't tested it out enough on PTS to determine that it needs a buff yet, but I feel the that the idea is right. If I had to choose between Purifying Ritual or this new skill, I would actually need to think about it and figure out which one I would get the best use of more often. Which I thought was what Zos explained they wanted to happen.

tinythinker

MissBizz wrote: »

I'm just a simple gal, but I'm a bit confused on something.

I seem to recall discussions (I believe it was on ESO live) where it was explained that Zos wanted there to actually be a choice when it comes to morphs. As in "oooh... this one does X.. but this one does Y! I wonder which I should choose!"

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Purifying Ritual was THE morph. I really don't know many people who have chosen Extended Ritual. It was suggested previously to change Extended Ritual to something different, so it would actually make you THINK about what morph you wanted. The two morphs would have been for different scenarios and would actually make it a more difficult choice on which one to use.

It was then decided to take the popular morph, completely change it, where it's probably still a bit better than the other morph (for a different reason) - but now it doesn't accomplish what it did (and why many folks chose it) PLUS extended ritual is still meh.

So rather than making 2 morphs actually possibly useful... folks may then instead say "Well, might as well take this class skill off my bar. There's better options elsewhere"

Am I on the right track?

More or less. Basically, the idea for giving Extended Ritual a snare and a DoT was player driven. Kudos to ZOS for listening and getting the idea in so quick. But folks are not happy that Purifying was altered instead Extended. So people have suggested ways of making the situation better. I gave three, and the last one (Option #3) seems like the best move in terms of giving options and ease of implementation, as it kind of leaves Purifying as the PvP morph and makes Retribution a nice morph for healers and tanks in PvE...

Option #1
- turn Extended Ritual, not Purifying Ritual, into the new Ritual of Retribution
- give damage at 2x the rate of the HoT for Retribution
- allow Retribution to be targeted, like Caltrops, rather than be centered on the caster

Option #2
- keep the change so that it is still Purifying Ritual that is replaced
- keep the extra cleanses from Purifying
- get rid of the HoT altogether and give a DoT that burns really, really, *really* hot

Option #3
- turn Extended Ritual, not Purifying Ritual, into the new Ritual of Retribution
- keep the extra duration from Extended
- get rid of the HoT altogether and give a DoT that burns really, really, *really* hot

Others have suggested similar ideas. Guess well will find out in the next set of patch notes for 2.4.1 or 2.4.2 whether any proposed improvements will be going in.

Van_0S

I though templars got a boon in DB PTS or am I wrong??

Solariken

Just spit-balling solutions for a compromise, but what would you guys think about this added to both morphs: cleanse 2 negative effects on cast and an additional 2 effects every 2 seconds for the duration while standing in the circle.

This makes the ability a little less spam-friendly while also retains a great deal of usefulness. /discuss

.

Neoauspex

Solariken wrote: »

Just spit-balling solutions for a compromise, but what would you guys think about this added to both morphs: cleanse 2 negative effects on cast and an additional 2 effects every 2 seconds for the duration while standing in the circle.

This makes the ability a little less spam-friendly while also retains a great deal of usefulness. /discuss

.

Or cleanse an additional effect every time it deals damage.

genjutsu_kami

POSITIVE FEED BACK FOR TEMPLARS

Fantastic changes, I like the new changes and I think nothing is wrong with the new changes. there has been an added cost for cleansing ritual which intact is not as major as some people may make it, it does balance it with the fact it now snares and does damage over time so I think that is balanced and well done.

I play stamplar and I find the new changes refreshing.

Joy_Division

Solariken wrote: »

Just spit-balling solutions for a compromise, but what would you guys think about this added to both morphs: cleanse 2 negative effects on cast and an additional 2 effects every 2 seconds for the duration while standing in the circle.

This makes the ability a little less spam-friendly while also retains a great deal of usefulness. /discuss

I appreciate the sentiment, but this is unnecessarily complicated and tries to fix something that was not broken in the first place.

When I am ganked by a NB with their crazy cheap heal debuff ultimate, spammable resistance debuffs, immobilizations, and the myriad of other debuffs they put on us, the fight is decided immediately upon the templar's next action as the templar is going to be low on health, heal debuffed, stunned, and immobilized at the least. I can't wait 2 seconds after casting a spell to get rid of the heal debuff because I am a templar with no means of easy escape and I rely on healing as my form of "defense." What else in my class toolkit resembles a unqiue defensive skill ala cloak, bolt Escape, Reflective scales, Blur, that the other classes would actually want? Nothing. Purifying ritual is it. It's *supposed* to be good defensively and now that is getting sacrificed for moar damage. Every patch my templar becomes worse defending herself and still can't move and stuck going outside the class just to find abilities to stop me from dying. Harness magicka/Bone Shield, healing ward, Vigor, purge, elusive mist, radiant magelight, all of these skills defend templars better than the templar's own skills! It's crazy. That's unacceptable and I'm not keen on some sort of compromise just so I can use some watered-down version of something that worked fine before that people didn't complain about. Even when it was reflecting meteors, PvPers were not raising a fuss about Purifying Ritual.

What I would have done to make both morphs compelling is to make it so the base spell gave what everyone who took it wanted: the 5 debuffs, to go along with the 12 seconds aura that healed, and, with the new patch, the snare.

From there, more support oriented healers could then opt for Extended which should not only last longer, but put out a stronger HoT and perhaps some support buff upon a user activating a synergy.

More DPS oriented templars would then pick the Retribution for the DoT in exchange for a less efficient and effective healing spell.

This way, every templar gets what they want from the base spell and each morph nicely fits into a role they prefer.

NBrookus

Joy_Division wrote: »

When I am ganked by a NB with their crazy cheap heal debuff ultimate, spammable resistance debuffs, immobilizations, and the myriad of other debuffs they put on us, the fight is decided immediately upon the templar's next action as the templar is going to be low on health, heal debuffed, stunned, and immobilized at the least.

With poisons, it's going to be much worse. In addition debuffs from class and weapon skills, there's a good chance there's going to be a triple debuff poison on top of all that.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Wild thought, (places on flamesuit), removing the ability to purge 5 is an ongoing effort to limit calculations and reduce lag.

Solariken

@Joy_Division we fully agree on the fact that PuRit was our best (and maybe only) reliable defense ability. It's class-defining. But for ZOS to swing the nerf hammer that hard, they had to have thought this through and I'm sure they have strong reasoning for the change (not that they will ever communicate it). Sorry Joy, but small concessions/compromises are all we can hope for.

Regarding my suggestion above, I actually think 2 cleanses on cast and 2 more every 2 seconds would be pretty cool. The Templar house should continue to be like a self-cleaning oven, but less purge-spammy than on live currently. As a Stamplar, fighting other Templars is such a royal pain - they wipe my Defiles, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker, axe bleed, all of it. It basically turns into a jab war, which magplars will always win due to their superior morph.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Solariken wrote: »

Just spit-balling solutions for a compromise, but what would you guys think about this added to both morphs: cleanse 2 negative effects on cast and an additional 2 effects every 2 seconds for the duration while standing in the circle.

This makes the ability a little less spam-friendly while also retains a great deal of usefulness. /discuss

.

Doesn't solve the fact any class can put more negative effects on you than you can cleanse. Purifying Light offers you no protection while you are being attacked as the heal is nothing compared to the damage linked to abilities with negative effects attached to them. The removal of which effects will be not always be the one you need removed.

I can understand why it seems removing 5 effects instantly might be seen as too much but really 1-2 is all were trying to get rid of when casting it. Something like Minor Fracture or a small DoT is hardly a concern. Even Major Defile alone isn't that concerning but if an opponent can put Major Defile, Disease, Major Fracture, Major Breech, and make my spells cost more or drain my magicka instantly. Dafaq am I supposed to do about that? I am dead in <2 seconds and they can keep reapplying this sort of combination over and over.

The_Lex

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Just spit-balling solutions for a compromise, but what would you guys think about this added to both morphs: cleanse 2 negative effects on cast and an additional 2 effects every 2 seconds for the duration while standing in the circle.

This makes the ability a little less spam-friendly while also retains a great deal of usefulness. /discuss

.

Doesn't solve the fact any class can put more negative effects on you than you can cleanse. Purifying Light offers you no protection while you are being attacked as the heal is nothing compared to the damage linked to abilities with negative effects attached to them. The removal of which effects will be not always be the one you need removed.

I can understand why it seems removing 5 effects instantly might be seen as too much but really 1-2 is all were trying to get rid of when casting it. Something like Minor Fracture or a small DoT is hardly a concern. Even Major Defile alone isn't that concerning but if an opponent can put Major Defile, Disease, Major Fracture, Major Breech, and make my spells cost more or drain my magicka instantly. Dafaq am I supposed to do about that? I am dead in <2 seconds and they can keep reapplying this sort of combination over and over.

Yeah, I'm not sure it will be worth running Purifying Ritual any more. I may just end up spamming Efficient Purge instead.

VagabondAngel

Sweeping changes, gotta love 'em.



Can I have Blinding Flashes back please?

timidobserver

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division we fully agree on the fact that PuRit was our best (and maybe only) reliable defense ability. It's class-defining. But for ZOS to swing the nerf hammer that hard, they had to have thought this through and I'm sure they have strong reasoning for the change (not that they will ever communicate it). Sorry Joy, but small concessions/compromises are all we can hope for.

Regarding my suggestion above, I actually think 2 cleanses on cast and 2 more every 2 seconds would be pretty cool. The Templar house should continue to be like a self-cleaning oven, but less purge-spammy than on live currently. As a Stamplar, fighting other Templars is such a royal pain - they wipe my Defiles, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker, axe bleed, all of it. It basically turns into a jab war, which magplars will always win due to their superior morph.

Why program this new undesirable mechanic when they can just take 2 minutes to change the 2 variable back into a 5.

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Just spit-balling solutions for a compromise, but what would you guys think about this added to both morphs: cleanse 2 negative effects on cast and an additional 2 effects every 2 seconds for the duration while standing in the circle.

This makes the ability a little less spam-friendly while also retains a great deal of usefulness. /discuss

I appreciate the sentiment, but this is unnecessarily complicated and tries to fix something that was not broken in the first place.

When I am ganked by a NB with their crazy cheap heal debuff ultimate, spammable resistance debuffs, immobilizations, and the myriad of other debuffs they put on us, the fight is decided immediately upon the templar's next action as the templar is going to be low on health, heal debuffed, stunned, and immobilized at the least. I can't wait 2 seconds after casting a spell to get rid of the heal debuff because I am a templar with no means of easy escape and I rely on healing as my form of "defense." What else in my class toolkit resembles a unqiue defensive skill ala cloak, bolt Escape, Reflective scales, Blur, that the other classes would actually want? Nothing. Purifying ritual is it. It's *supposed* to be good defensively and now that is getting sacrificed for moar damage. Every patch my templar becomes worse defending herself and still can't move and stuck going outside the class just to find abilities to stop me from dying. Harness magicka/Bone Shield, healing ward, Vigor, purge, elusive mist, radiant magelight, all of these skills defend templars better than the templar's own skills! It's crazy. That's unacceptable and I'm not keen on some sort of compromise just so I can use some watered-down version of something that worked fine before that people didn't complain about. Even when it was reflecting meteors, PvPers were not raising a fuss about Purifying Ritual.

What I would have done to make both morphs compelling is to make it so the base spell gave what everyone who took it wanted: the 5 debuffs, to go along with the 12 seconds aura that healed, and, with the new patch, the snare.

From there, more support oriented healers could then opt for Extended which should not only last longer, but put out a stronger HoT and perhaps some support buff upon a user activating a synergy.

More DPS oriented templars would then pick the Retribution for the DoT in exchange for a less efficient and effective healing spell.

This way, every templar gets what they want from the base spell and each morph nicely fits into a role they prefer.

Yes this change was puzzling since there were other changes the Templar community considered higher priority.

A ground based DOT, aligns with tank builds more and this change was clearly motivated by PVE (how many moments do you need to purge in a trial or dungeon?). In the war on homogeneous skillsets, the Templar is losing badly.

It is also clear ZOS wants us to use an expensive purge instead of a cheap self purge. It's a band-aid balance, set on a scale that heavily favors DMG.

cazlonb16_ESO

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

I though templars got a boon in DB PTS or am I wrong??

Templars got a few quality of life improvements and a sweeping nerf to one of their key abilities.

Probably a little early to tell the effects of the general game system changes on the class.

booksmcread

@Wrobel

I don't understand why you insist on nerfing Templars every DLC. Why do you hate this class so much? Why do you hate the people who play this class? Templars have never been a "top of the foodchain" class and yet you take away from them every chance you get.

The removal of Purifying Ritual is quite ridiculous. By removing this ability, you are doubly nerfing Templars. You are removing a necessary skill and replacing it with something less effective and that costs more without any form of compensation. Templars already have the worst resource management and skill costs are going up across the board with this DLC. Increasing the cost of another skill is asinine. Templars do not have much in the way of defense, especially in PVP. Our shield is near useless, we are forced to stand in our armor buff (in a game that emphasizes movement, of all things!), you took away our best defensive skill in Blinding Flashes, and you nerfed BoL. Purifying Ritual is necessary to Templar survivability. We have no escape ability, we have no strong defensive ability, we are forced to stand our ground and this skill is one of the major contributors to Templars staying alive long enough to react to ridiculous burst damage and CC. I appreciate that you have a vision for the class as expressed in ESO Live, but your actions on moving the class to that place are non-existant. Besides, why are you duplicating existing mechanics? We already have a ground AoE dot. It's called Blazing Spear. Why give us another in the form of Ritual of Retribution when you could just improve an existing skill? Take Blazing Spear, increase it's radius, increase it's duration, and restore Purifying Ritual.

While I'm at it, do you think you could finally do something about Toppling Charge? I mean, it's been bugged since the First Era, ffs. It's well past due for a re-code.

Justice31st

Wait a second, not only did they nerf our puncturing sweeps again, they nerfed our purifying ritual? All I have to say is fire @Wrobel.

Edit: I am talking about the healing from puncturing sweeps.

Joy_Division

Solariken wrote: »

@Joy_Division we fully agree on the fact that PuRit was our best (and maybe only) reliable defense ability. It's class-defining. But for ZOS to swing the nerf hammer that hard, they had to have thought this through and I'm sure they have strong reasoning for the change (not that they will ever communicate it). Sorry Joy, but small concessions/compromises are all we can hope for.

Regarding my suggestion above, I actually think 2 cleanses on cast and 2 more every 2 seconds would be pretty cool. The Templar house should continue to be like a self-cleaning oven, but less purge-spammy than on live currently. As a Stamplar, fighting other Templars is such a royal pain - they wipe my Defiles, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker, axe bleed, all of it. It basically turns into a jab war, which magplars will always win due to their superior morph.

Edit: This post is not meant to be as contentious or aggressive as the tone may imply. The strong feelings within are not meant to suggest or imply that the way you see things is somehow "wrong" (indeed, an argument can be made that your perspective may be more conducive to making templars actually better!). Rather, it is a reflection of the frustration I have with the combat team's continued reluctance to actually work with the ESO community in implementing major changes and that I simply will not play something I feel "forced" to when it is not fun.

******

If ZoS insists on hammering through unwanted, unasked for changes without even feeling the need to explain their reasoning, I do *not* have to simply accept them and only hope for a small compromise.

The fact of the matter is ESO is not the only entertainment option available nor am I somehow forced to play a templar. I don't have to do anything so dramatic as threaten to quit because of a change I dislike, I can simply do what I have done for over a year: just not play my Dragonknight because I did not deem the class enjoyable to play in a competitive setting. Call me a fickle, call me a FOTM nub, call me whatever, but I will not somehow feel compelled to play something I do not find enjoyable and simply hope for watered down compromises.

I see the feedback process as a means to communicate genuine and unadulterated feelings. This is not a business negotiation or something like that. If I see something I deem unbalanced, unfair, poorly designed, or contrary to what I perceive to be a reasonable consensus, I will unequivocally tell ZoS as such and why I believe it to be so - and not aim for some meaningless middle-ground that makes nobody happy.

With the lag I have to put up with every single time I log onto Cyrodiil, with the exodus of longtime PvP guilds going back to the Battlespirit change that came with the IC, and continued complaints about Zerg-dominated insta-kill meta, ZoS is hardly in a position to engender the sort of confidence where I ought to simply sit back and hope for small compromises.

While I will grant your "self cleaning oven" concept is interesting, not having the choice of which 2 debuffs are to be cleansed is not and thus exposes Templars to significant dangers the class was ostensibly designed to deal with much easier than the others. The signature defensive advantage Templars had is thus lost, which goes contrary to ZoS's own goal of class distinctiveness, aside from balance concerns.

People on these forums may associate me with being a Templar, but my Sorcerer has a higher PvP rank, and the best experiences I have had playing ESO was on my DK. I will not hold my hand out some meaningless concession, I will simply go do something else that I find enjoyable.

I understand my way of looking at it is just that, my way and not the way others have to look at it. It's fine if other people think differently. But as long as I play ESO and find the motivation to log in, I am going to tell Zenimax how I feel and I think I have been more than fair in taking the time to objectively explaining why it is I find their gameplay mechanics questionable or problematic.

Zheg

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

I though templars got a boon in DB PTS or am I wrong??

Most templars 'boons' have been nerfs in reality. When TG hit PTS, seems like we finally had enough and blew up into an 80+ page thread ranting about how misguided the templar specific balance changes were.

Take the new morph of eclipse they added in the last patch as an example. It was supposed to work like a sorcs curse and go off after 6 seconds. One of the passives for the skill-line makes all skills have longer duration, so that explosion happens after 8 seconds, making the skill worse. This wasn't changed for the DB patch either. Templar skills and passives are clunky, sometimes broken, sometimes under-performing, and rarely addressed. I'm just going to start practicing on Live how to heal without purifying ritual down and using the tiny focus for major mending. We all know nothing is going to be changed ... might as well just give in, lament, and make due with what we have or reroll.

danno8

Justice31st wrote: »

Wait a second, not only did they nerf our puncturing sweeps again, they nerfed our purifying ritual? All I have to say is fire @Wrobel.

Sweeps is just a bug. Confirmed by Wrobel.

Justice31st

danno8 wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Wait a second, not only did they nerf our puncturing sweeps again, they nerfed our purifying ritual? All I have to say is fire @Wrobel.

Sweeps is just a bug. Confirmed by Wrobel.

They nerfed the healing again.

The_Lex

danno8 wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Wait a second, not only did they nerf our puncturing sweeps again, they nerfed our purifying ritual? All I have to say is fire @Wrobel.

Sweeps is just a bug. Confirmed by Wrobel.

@Justice31st beat me to it. The bug was regarding whether sweeps benefited from Thaumaturge. However, the healing from sweeps was nerfed - you no longer get a crit healing.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Zheg wrote: »

It was supposed to work like a sorcs curse and go off after 6 seconds. One of the passives for the skill-line makes all skills have longer duration, so that explosion happens after 8 seconds, making the skill worse. This wasn't changed for the DB patch either.

There is no reason to take that passive. The Dawn's Wrath Skill Line is so awesome only 3 of the 4 passives are good, 1 has to be intentionally bad.

AfkNinja

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Wild thought, (places on flamesuit), removing the ability to purge 5 is an ongoing effort to limit calculations and reduce lag.

Doesn't matter why they did it, it's a MASSIVE nerf with the new poisons. A class purge should be better than standard purge or there's no reason to use it. At Minimum it needs to remove 4 effects.

Justice31st wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Wait a second, not only did they nerf our puncturing sweeps again, they nerfed our purifying ritual? All I have to say is fire @Wrobel.

Sweeps is just a bug. Confirmed by Wrobel.

They nerfed the healing again.

They nerfed the ability of the heal to "double crit" as in the dmg crits, then the healing component crits also. No more double dipping.

AriBoh

Every class now gets a 6 second shield be it stamina or magika - Homogenisation
Dks had a morph change so they have a gap closer and now anyone with fighters guild points can have one - Homogenisation
Purifying ritual now only cleansing 2 debuffs same a purge - Homogenisation

'Hey can templars have a Expedition buff somewhere?'

Wrobel - 'No we dont want to Homogenise the classes'

Hypocrite.

blabafat

My thoughts


ZOS added a snare to an aoe healing ability....

ZOS also buffed the damage to a cc ability (javelin)

It does not make sense. They are making changes to skills which have a use that is completely different than the change made

Purify is now purging 2 effects. It's basically a modified version of purge. 2 effects is nothing. Mark target applies 3 effects. You have to cast purify two times to purge 1 ability. Makin a class skill equivalent to a non class skill completely goes against the idea of classes.

The snare and damage is not necessary. The ability is used for a small hot, major mending, and purging. Offensive mechanics do not belong with this skill

Cinbri

blabafat wrote: »

My thoughts


ZOS added a snare to an aoe healing ability....

ZOS also buffed the damage to a cc ability (javelin)

It does not make sense. They are making changes to skills which have a use that is completely different than the change made

Purify is now purging 2 effects. It's basically a modified version of purge. 2 effects is nothing. Mark target applies 3 effects. You have to cast purify two times to purge 1 ability. Makin a class skill equivalent to a non class skill completely goes against the idea of classes.

The snare and damage is not necessary. The ability is used for a small hot, major mending, and purging. Offensive mechanics do not belong with this skill

And guess what is more funnier? With Shuffle and revamped Momentum snares not working vs stamina builds. And Cyro will be 80% of stamina builds seems since DB, so...

danno8

The_Patriarch wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Wait a second, not only did they nerf our puncturing sweeps again, they nerfed our purifying ritual? All I have to say is fire @Wrobel.

Sweeps is just a bug. Confirmed by Wrobel.

@Justice31st beat me to it. The bug was regarding whether sweeps benefited from Thaumaturge. However, the healing from sweeps was nerfed - you no longer get a crit healing.

This was a bug fix. I refuse to call bug fixes nerfs.

The same way that Puncturing Sweeps heal does not (after we all realized and complained) get reduced by Battle Spirit since the damage from the skill is already reduced, leading to a reduced heal already, it is only fair that since the heal is already increased proportionally by a crit by the damage portion, that it does not get increased again by a second crit from healing.

It would be hypocritical to expect otherwise.