Greed, greeed, greed

emily3989

Those that want to learn probably already know.

Those that don't, won't, and you won't force them too either. They will simply keep dung finder grouping until they find 3 others to carry them on their back.

Jesh

Destruent wrote: »

I think it won't solve the problem. CP/gear will make you play better...you just can get more out of your character in terms of tankiness/dps/hps. you have to learn the mechanic of the game and the dungeon. To get better the game/experienced players can help you, but the game doesn't help you with an easy-mode.
As I said...scaling is fine, you can complete those dungeons with all levels of player if they know how to play. i did vWGT with a random group of: V1 healer (random), V12 (or so) tank (random) V6 DD (me) and V16 DD (guildmate) and both randoms didn't know the dungeon but it worked. We just explained the mechanics shortly and after some tries we beat those bosses in there. Trust me...scaling doesn't help...it just helps you to not improve your playstyle.

But isn't your point here that you managed to teach the mechanics here and then people improved their playstyle? I want more of that, and I think it needs to be done by introducing the dungeons early to the players.

Destruent

emily3989 wrote: »

Those that want to learn probably already know.

Those that don't, won't, and you won't force them too either. They will simply keep dung finder grouping until they find 3 others to carry them on their back.

I'm sure there are lots of good players out there who don't know about those two dungeons. But you are right...there are some that simply don't want to learn. But you don't need to nerf dungeons for them, that's just not fair for all other players.

Jesh

emily3989 wrote: »

Those that want to learn probably already know.

Those that don't, won't, and you won't force them too either. They will simply keep dung finder grouping until they find 3 others to carry them on their back.

I don't think thats fair. There are plenty of players who want to learn not being given the chance. I was eager to learn but was catch 22'd for months.

Jesh

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

For this, we just need more in-game tutorials and incentive for players to help newbies.
For example, people were mentioned mentoring system... How about rewarding players for doing dungeons with first-timers (who dont have the achievement on their account)? Or something like this.

That's one solution, that sounds good. See, the solution to greed might be helping and sharing! (*barf*)

Lucious90

Now I see a few issues, Ive done some hardcore raiding and dungeons over my career in MMO's WoW is my main squeeze for that, and led raids and all of that good jazz. I dont do it in this game for a few reason that I see and IMHO play a part to why the Dungeons and Trials (I am expanding) get nerfed.

First it has to do with the dungeon Scaling. You get level 10s thrown in with vet 16s, then it scales wierd and you have the lower levels gimped by the battle scaling based off of PL. Which then in turn the VR-16s who are just grinding Pledges or Cheeves, get frustrated and leave, as I know I would be in a LFG as I dont want constant wipe.. Then there is a perception of elitism vs causal fight that ensues. There also isnt any progression in this system. A group of dungeons that can be ran over again to get the hang of working in a 4-5 man setting and get progressively better gear to move on to the next more difficult set of dungeons or Vet mode.

There is also the solo mentality, you dont need to min/max, but going in with a solo build doesnt always work. So you get these people with their snowflake builds that may work in Delves or Public Dungeons or questing, but dont learn to adjust for a group setting, that gets annoying as well, and with out the traditional class trinity it makes this even more so...

Also Speak up if you dont know don't the fight say something... The scary min/maxers 8/10 will usually let you know the fight. And listen to the person calling out phases.

Also get in a guild... having a group of regular members will help you out a lot more than a random group. Learning fights is a matter of asking guild/group members.... youtube and Tamriel Foundry are great resources to use to learn a fight.

TLDR; Learn fights, teamwork, and ZoS get a system to keep ppl from being under skilled/qualified

AddictionX

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Here let me shed some light on it for you... take a seat and keep calm have a cookie.
Yes I like googling pictures. (warning its long)

Some people disagree on some issues (that's life)and they have a right towards their opinion just as much as you do. It seems you're confusing "casuals" with "communist" and everything you hold evil in the world....(lol like and i mean it sincerely ... who hurt you? You seem to be scarred by "casuals"). Fortunately, we the people have a right to voice our opinion.

"Why casuals are so entitled?...... But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work? Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game."

On the part of your post where you mention the flawed argument and easy to attack... something about casuals.... oh wait.... i mean the "communist" toxic mentality apparently at risk of nerfing your world. Perhaps you should realize that communist typically can exist in games but fortunately my brothers in arms assured that they stayed in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam and China(well maybe not some but lets not get into the political correctives- political battle e.g. China lol i know my history and facts). Please do not call people "communist" because of their opinion when it absolutely has nothing to do with the game but rather a personal attack at them in a attempt to vilify people who don't agree with you... thanks!

You may say you dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing... So I am going to assume by that statement and take into context that you are a "minmax-er"(lol yep its now a word). Suppose for instance you could be viable playing as you want(like you describe it) and still be able to enjoy the game to its fullest extent in terms of does not matter what class you play, what race you choose to play, what weapon you choose to use, or what content you choose to do it does not matter because whether or not you choose to min max the content would be equally challenging because it should be relative to that players skill. This is clearly not the case or else balancing would not be a thing.

Min maxing at its core takes advantage of imbalances and attempts to create the best stats possible due to those imbalances.... ill use for example a dps to present my point... Say you want to do as much dps as you can but the consequences for that is you ignored the other factors, in this case think of a triangle.
my explanation: (warning its long)
At the top of the triangle would be "health and survivability effectiveness" on the right side there is "stamina and stamina skills effectiveness" on the left side there is "magicka and magicka skills effectiveness". With a dot in the middle.

Imagine if I move this dot deep into stamina and stamina skills I should have nothing in the way of health and survivability or magicka skills effectiveness if i move it toward the top I should have nothing on magicka skills effectiveness or stamina skills effectiveness but have the ultimate survivability effectiveness in which neither of the other two could out pace it because one should not be superior to the other... only by the player that controls the character through smart play because they're equals of one another just in a different play style with different skills.

Lets say you do not want to move the dot toward any extreme keeping it at the middle then you should have the benefit of all 3 sides but because you did not go toward one specific side you can use all 3 to effectively counter some one who is leaning towards the other side, that some one who did lean towards a specific side should be able to out pace it in its expertise but lack survivability/health and magicka/effectiveness. Therefore should be equals and end up balancing because of ones counter towards it.

No matter where I move this dot... it should only say my specialty and play style therefore should not affect my ability to complete any content(yes even challenging content) because it would all be balanced. Instead at this very moment if you're not minmaxing and taking advantage of imbalances you automatically at risk and also at a disadvantage... So it should not matter what you're "triangle" looks like they will all add up to the same degrees only having different lengths at various points as no triangle is "superior" toward another.


What if I put it this way these "communist casuals".... I guess since im defending the right to an opinion that would some how make me one by some... and say these "epeen elitist" that always offer unsolicited advice( yep I got a link for that http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lauren-cahn/surprisingly-valuable-adv_b_6061798.html) is so toxic for the game. One would say "just because I enjoy challenging content/min-max/whatever you consider yourself to be ...does not make me an epeen elitist" right? Well, that's exactly what you're saying by the logic in your post it is arrogant(perhaps selfish) and rather yet may have a certain naivety towards mmo's.

lathbury

AddictionX wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Here let me shed some light on it for you... take a seat and keep calm have a cookie.


Some people disagree on some issues (that's life)and they have a right towards their opinion just as much as you do. It seems you're confusing "casuals" with "communist" and everything you hold evil in the world....(lol like and i mean it sincerely ... who hurt you? You seem to be scarred by "casuals"). Fortunately, we the people have a right to voice our opinion.

On the part of your post where you mention the flawed argument and easy to attack... something about casuals.... oh wait.... i mean the "communist" toxic mentality apparently at risk of nerfing your world. Perhaps you should realize that communist typically can exist in games but fortunately my brothers in arms assured that they stayed in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam and China. Please do not call people "communist" because of their opinion when it absolutely has nothing to do with the game but rather a personal attack at them in a attempt to vilify people who don't agree with you... thanks!

You may say you dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing... So I am going to assume by that statement and take into context that you are a "minmax-er"(lol yep its now a word). Suppose for instance you could be viable playing as you want(like you describe it) and still be able to enjoy the game to its fullest extent in terms of does not matter what class you play, what race you choose to play, what weapon you choose to use, or what content you choose to do it does not matter because whether or not you choose to min max the content would be equally challenging because it should be relative to that players skill. This is clearly not the case or else balancing would not be a thing.

Min maxing at its core takes advantage of imbalances and attempts to create the best stats possible due to those imbalances.... ill use for example a dps to present my point... Say you want to do as much dps as you can but the consequences for that is you ignored the other factors, in this case think of a triangle.
At the top of the triangle would be "health and survivability effectiveness" on the right side there is "stamina and stamina skills effectiveness" on the left side there is "magicka and magicka skills effectiveness". Now lets imagine a dot in the middle if I move this dot deep into stamina and stamina skills I should have nothing in the way of health and survivability or magicka skills effectiveness if i move it toward the top I should have nothing on magicka skills effectiveness or stamina skills effectiveness but have the ultimate survivability effectiveness in which neither of the other two could out pace it numerically only by the player that controls the character through smart play because they're equals of one another just in a different play style with different skills. Lets say you do not want to move the dot toward any extreme keeping it at the middle then you should have the benefit of all 3 sides but because you did not go toward one specific side you can use all 3 to effectively counter some one who is leaning towards the other side, that some one who did lean towards a specific side should be able to out pace it in its expertise but lack survivability/health and magicka/effectiveness. Therefore should be equals and end up balancing because of ones counter towards it. No matter where I move this dot... it should only say my specialty and play style therefore should not affect my ability to complete any content(yes even challenging content) because it would all be balanced. Instead at this very moment if you're not minmaxing and taking advantage of imbalances you automatically at risk and also at a disadvantage...

What if I put it this way these "communist casuals".... I guess since im defending the right to an opinion that would some how make me one by some... and say these "epeen elitist" that always offer unsolicited advice( yep I got a link for that http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lauren-cahn/surprisingly-valuable-adv_b_6061798.html) is so toxic for the game. One would say "just because I enjoy challenging content/min-max/whatever you consider yourself to be ...does not make me an epeen elitist" right? Well, that's exactly what you're saying by the logic in your post it is arrogant(perhaps selfish) and rather yet have a certain naivety towards mmo's.

can i get a tldr

AddictionX

lathbury wrote: »

AddictionX wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Here let me shed some light on it for you... take a seat and keep calm have a cookie.


Some people disagree on some issues (that's life)and they have a right towards their opinion just as much as you do. It seems you're confusing "casuals" with "communist" and everything you hold evil in the world....(lol like and i mean it sincerely ... who hurt you? You seem to be scarred by "casuals"). Fortunately, we the people have a right to voice our opinion.

On the part of your post where you mention the flawed argument and easy to attack... something about casuals.... oh wait.... i mean the "communist" toxic mentality apparently at risk of nerfing your world. Perhaps you should realize that communist typically can exist in games but fortunately my brothers in arms assured that they stayed in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam and China. Please do not call people "communist" because of their opinion when it absolutely has nothing to do with the game but rather a personal attack at them in a attempt to vilify people who don't agree with you... thanks!

You may say you dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing... So I am going to assume by that statement and take into context that you are a "minmax-er"(lol yep its now a word). Suppose for instance you could be viable playing as you want(like you describe it) and still be able to enjoy the game to its fullest extent in terms of does not matter what class you play, what race you choose to play, what weapon you choose to use, or what content you choose to do it does not matter because whether or not you choose to min max the content would be equally challenging because it should be relative to that players skill. This is clearly not the case or else balancing would not be a thing.

Min maxing at its core takes advantage of imbalances and attempts to create the best stats possible due to those imbalances.... ill use for example a dps to present my point... Say you want to do as much dps as you can but the consequences for that is you ignored the other factors, in this case think of a triangle.
At the top of the triangle would be "health and survivability effectiveness" on the right side there is "stamina and stamina skills effectiveness" on the left side there is "magicka and magicka skills effectiveness". Now lets imagine a dot in the middle if I move this dot deep into stamina and stamina skills I should have nothing in the way of health and survivability or magicka skills effectiveness if i move it toward the top I should have nothing on magicka skills effectiveness or stamina skills effectiveness but have the ultimate survivability effectiveness in which neither of the other two could out pace it numerically only by the player that controls the character through smart play because they're equals of one another just in a different play style with different skills. Lets say you do not want to move the dot toward any extreme keeping it at the middle then you should have the benefit of all 3 sides but because you did not go toward one specific side you can use all 3 to effectively counter some one who is leaning towards the other side, that some one who did lean towards a specific side should be able to out pace it in its expertise but lack survivability/health and magicka/effectiveness. Therefore should be equals and end up balancing because of ones counter towards it. No matter where I move this dot... it should only say my specialty and play style therefore should not affect my ability to complete any content(yes even challenging content) because it would all be balanced. Instead at this very moment if you're not minmaxing and taking advantage of imbalances you automatically at risk and also at a disadvantage...

What if I put it this way these "communist casuals".... I guess since im defending the right to an opinion that would some how make me one by some... and say these "epeen elitist" that always offer unsolicited advice( yep I got a link for that http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lauren-cahn/surprisingly-valuable-adv_b_6061798.html) is so toxic for the game. One would say "just because I enjoy challenging content/min-max/whatever you consider yourself to be ...does not make me an epeen elitist" right? Well, that's exactly what you're saying by the logic in your post it is arrogant(perhaps selfish) and rather yet have a certain naivety towards mmo's.

can i get a tldr

I agree.... it's mostly cause my minds some where else, and focused on hitting the gym...

Perhaps ill shorten it for the rest... But OP did ask for an explanation.... so there it is.

Korah_Eaglecry

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

LMAO did you just call a change to the game communist? How is anyone, but the drama queens on these forums, supposed to take you seriously when thats how you act when something changes that you dont like?

We dont even know what the changes are like yet. And youre already throwing around buzz words and throwing a temper tantrum.

AddictionX

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

LMAO did you just call a change to the game communist? How is anyone, but the drama queens on these forums, supposed to take you seriously when thats how you act when something changes that you dont like?

We dont even know what the changes are like yet. And youre already throwing around buzz words and throwing a temper tantrum.

Yep basically what I pointed out ... I agree.

failkiwib16_ESO

o.O

I assume you fellow forum users do know what a "communist approach" means in the context of OP's post, right? Please stop making a big deal out of that word.

..and if you don't know or understand what OP means with it within the context of the post, then ask about it before you attack OP.

---

I hope we get a replacement for 4mans endgame content, if they choose to really nerf those dungeons. Otherwise there is not much left for endgamers to actually do other than vMSA and vMOL.
vMSA is a solo trial, vMOL is a 12 mans trial, and that is simply not enough or acceptable for endgamers. It's too little relevant content

code65536

Svalinn wrote: »

THe truth is that many "hardcore" players refuse to party up with newer players because they want their run to be perfect and this result, most of the times, to newest player not having a chance of partecipating in group content unless they have a group of RL friends to go with them.

This is another example of how people deny fun to other people in order to have fun... and it's something wrong.

I'm quite sure that if people didn't start to ask for "achievements" before creating groups, did not refuse to party up with other players etc wel... the nerfing would not be in the game so if those people now complain i can just say "blame yourself".

It's not about a run being perfect. It's about time. There are times when I'm bored, with nothing better to do, and I'll just the queue for a random dungeon and I tell myself that I'll stick it out no matter what I get. Even if it means wiping for 90 minutes on vCoA with people who had never done it before. But most of the time, I just don't have the time for that.

But why must you group with experienced people in order to have fun? You are not entitled to our time, and we aren't "denying" you anything.

When I first started doing the vet dungeons as a cluelessly bad player, I did so with friends. Not real-life friends, but people that I met in-game through guild chat or zone chat. And we were all newbies. When we walked into vCoH, none of us had ever done it before. And yes, it was a painful wipefest, but it was fun to learn and experience a new dungeon with people of your own (crappy) skill level and to basically "grow up together" with a group of people in-game.

Yes, there were a few dungeons where my first clears were under the tutelage of a more experienced player, but most of the content that I cleared for the first time are with people of a similar skill and experience level, where we go in and experience/learn it together. Which in and of itself is a very fun experience in a MMO. Some of my best memories in ESO are of me improving, getting better, doing progressively harder content, and "growing up" alongside other people going through that same process.

LadyNalcarya

@ AddictionX
Im sorry but after you other posts, which were just a bunch of personal attacks and memes, Im not gonna read this.

(You seem to be a fan of these, so...)

@ Korah_Eaglecry
Ever heard of figurative sense? I can also pick a random word in any of your post and reply to it.

Jesh wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

For this, we just need more in-game tutorials and incentive for players to help newbies.
For example, people were mentioned mentoring system... How about rewarding players for doing dungeons with first-timers (who dont have the achievement on their account)? Or something like this.

That's one solution, that sounds good. See, the solution to greed might be helping and sharing! (*barf*)

Actually yes. Without any sarcasm, mechanics that encourage players to care and share work wonders. Orsinium world boss dailies for example, or daily random dungeon dailies...
Why not to extend it to helping newbies?
From what I understand, the main issue is alienating of the players based on their achievements and goals. This is not a game issue, this is a community issue. And it can be solved by encouraging more friendly playstyle.
Thanks for those who wrote non-trolling and -baiting posts, by the way.

VoiDGhOs7

TBH to me it's pointless asking ZOS to not nerf the "hardest" 4-Players dungeons because 99% of times they won't listen since the major part of game its made by "casuals.

Some players don't want to learn or are to lazy to do it which leads to nerfs to abilities to dungeons and so on.

LadyNalcarya

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

TBH to me it's pointless asking ZOS to not nerf the "hardest" 4-Players dungeons because 99% of times they won't listen since the major part of game its made by "casuals.

Some players don't want to learn or are to lazy to do it which leads to nerfs to abilities to dungeons and so on.

Yeah, but how many casual players actually want instant gratification? Dont think its all of them. Judging by replies in this and other similar threads, there are community issues and negativity related to these dungeons and pugs. So imo difficulty is not even the main problem here. Inability to get involved in these endgame activities is a real problem... And nerfs only make things worse ("casuals vs hardcores" tensions).

Pangnirtung

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Seriously you lost me with this last sentence. How is what you say any different than "capitalism"?

Shunravi

Pangnirtung wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Seriously you lost me with this last sentence. How is what you say any different than "capitalism"?

Communism is a philosophy of economic and scocial normalization.

This isnt a political debate. The cold war is over.

LadyNalcarya

Pangnirtung wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Seriously you lost me with this last sentence. How is what you say any different than "capitalism"?

"Communism" is a sense "everyone should be adjusted to certain (not very high) level and whoever wants diversity is an enemy of the nation". Maybe its just me, and due to my ancestry this word has a specific wibe and its perception is not the same for people from other countries.
Capitalist approach in this case would be just to sell more stuff... And since this game's main target audience are TES fans (otherwise why there would be som mcuh lore and quests?), and those are not nessesarily instant gratification gamers.
"Casual" might also have different meanings. In my post, I was talking specifically about vocal casuals, who are happen to be instant gratification gamers or just people who had bad experience in pugs.
But casual doenst mean that you have to be bad at games and demand dumbing everything down. Its more about not taking games too seriously and not playing too much... In a general sense.
On a side note, from "capitalist" standpoint it would be better to release more options, like barber shop/housing etc, rather than doing something that controversial. Since many of TES fans are not mmo players and not really interested in group content, but are spoiled by mods in previous games.

Jesh

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

That's one solution, that sounds good. See, the solution to greed might be helping and sharing! (*barf*)

Actually yes. Without any sarcasm, mechanics that encourage players to care and share work wonders. Orsinium world boss dailies for example, or daily random dungeon dailies...
Why not to extend it to helping newbies?
From what I understand, the main issue is alienating of the players based on their achievements and goals. This is not a game issue, this is a community issue. And it can be solved by encouraging more friendly playstyle.
Thanks for those who wrote non-trolling and -baiting posts, by the way.

You see I agree with this post, and it being about encouraging a playerbase to help and share (who's the communist now buddy?), but your OP was very confrontational and accusatory towards other players. THIS post here is a positive contribution. I like it.

failkiwib16_ESO

@code65536 you just described how I started only you seem to have been better off from the start...

I was a vampire healer in heavy armor + bow, and I had a hard time solo questing, so I hated veteran dungeons - and I remember everyone wanted me, because I was the only healer they knew - all my teams were bad and I was horrible. >.<

Now I use the group finder to meet new people, but only when I have a few hours to spare. If a player seems nice I talk to them and invite them to my friends list or guild - regardless of their skill and experience. Sometimes I recruit them to my friend's guild, if they seem to fit better in there.

LadyNalcarya

Jesh wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

That's one solution, that sounds good. See, the solution to greed might be helping and sharing! (*barf*)

Actually yes. Without any sarcasm, mechanics that encourage players to care and share work wonders. Orsinium world boss dailies for example, or daily random dungeon dailies...
Why not to extend it to helping newbies?
From what I understand, the main issue is alienating of the players based on their achievements and goals. This is not a game issue, this is a community issue. And it can be solved by encouraging more friendly playstyle.
Thanks for those who wrote non-trolling and -baiting posts, by the way.

You see I agree with this post, and it being about encouraging a playerbase to help and share (who's the communist now buddy?), but your OP was very confrontational and accusatory towards other players. THIS post here is a positive contribution. I like it.

Helping for the rewards is selfish of course Its for profit, haha.
But if it helps to build a more healthy community, then why not...
P.S. My OP post is kinda angry, I must admit that. I was very shocked by Zos' decision, and I apolozige about that.

Rune_Relic

I guess it depends on the content.

Is the content supposed to be an unachievable benchmark ?
If so....why give a reward ? The progress is the achievement.
Is the content supposed to be hard but achievable ?
In which case you would expect a reward.
Define hard in a context ?

If something takes the best guild in the whole game 2-3weeks before they finally complete it playing at 100% potential.
How is jack ordinary ever supposed to achieve it in 6 months ?

If it has nothing to do with skill and is purely sequential memory...being in the right place at the right time.
ie its easy once you learn (know) the dungeon.
What makes you think the remaining 99% would ever have the mental capacity to achieve what only the very best are capable of ?

Its like asking Michael Schumacher to set a lap record.
Then saying you win 1,000,000 if you can beat the lap time
99.99999999% of the people will never ever ever get anywhere near that laptime.
Even if they know the car and the track liek the back of their hand.
But it is achievable as Michael Schumacher achieved it.
So that makes it OK.
In fact most people would quickly give up even attempting it.

Which is where ZOS metrics come in.

Anyway. Like I said. What is the content supposed to achieve.
Is it purely a playground for the leetist of the leet ?
Is it publicly digestable content for the masses that have to be more competent than normal ?
Where do you draw the line between content for experienced players...and only the very very best ?
Is the reward only for the very very best..ie gated gear to make the powerful even more powerful ?

Shunravi

Jesh wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

That's one solution, that sounds good. See, the solution to greed might be helping and sharing! (*barf*)

Actually yes. Without any sarcasm, mechanics that encourage players to care and share work wonders. Orsinium world boss dailies for example, or daily random dungeon dailies...
Why not to extend it to helping newbies?
From what I understand, the main issue is alienating of the players based on their achievements and goals. This is not a game issue, this is a community issue. And it can be solved by encouraging more friendly playstyle.
Thanks for those who wrote non-trolling and -baiting posts, by the way.

You see I agree with this post, and it being about encouraging a playerbase to help and share (who's the communist now buddy?), but your OP was very confrontational and accusatory towards other players. THIS post here is a positive contribution. I like it.

So communist is still a scare tactic political negative buzzword that people just cant get past? Instead of a descriptive word for a philosophy?


Ok.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Yeah, but how many casual players actually want instant gratification? Dont think its all of them. Judging by replies in this and other similar threads, there are community issues and negativity related to these dungeons and pugs. So imo difficulty is not even the main problem here. Inability to get involved in these endgame activities is a real problem... And nerfs only make things worse ("casuals vs hardcores" tensions).

I think it's not about "Instant gratification" but more about "having the chance to "compete" with eeryone else at least "statwise" or "equipmentwise" even without taking the game as a job or something like that... that i agree can be seen as wanting instant gratification lol.

Anyway... if it was me i would just take away ALL the special equipment that's possible to get by these "hardcore" things... like for example take away the vet16 helmets from the vet dungeon bosses and put them in the normal one so that everyone can find those... at the same time sostitute them with special COSTUMES (so all about look and no stat gain) maybe giving players a "boss polymorph" or something like that... or perhaps special pets.. like "boss baby" pet... i mean something that does not give advantages stat wise but will be a nice prize as far as "honor" is concerned.

This way you take away the reason for casuals to wanting to finish those dungeons so no nerf required, you can make the vet dungeons even harder if hardcore players want to have "challenge" ad everyone would have advantages only.

Now i just hope people will stick to the "i don't want the nerf because i want challenge" because to find out that everyone would be pissed at not having "stat equipment drops" from those activities would totally destroy the "challenge" aspect of the request....

LadyNalcarya

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Yeah, but how many casual players actually want instant gratification? Dont think its all of them. Judging by replies in this and other similar threads, there are community issues and negativity related to these dungeons and pugs. So imo difficulty is not even the main problem here. Inability to get involved in these endgame activities is a real problem... And nerfs only make things worse ("casuals vs hardcores" tensions).

I think it's not about "Instant gratification" but more about "having the chance to "compete" with eeryone else at least "statwise" or "equipmentwise" even without taking the game as a job or something like that... that i agree can be seen as wanting instant gratification lol.

Anyway... if it was me i would just take away ALL the special equipment that's possible to get by these "hardcore" things... like for example take away the vet16 helmets from the vet dungeon bosses and put them in the normal one so that everyone can find those... at the same time sostitute them with special COSTUMES (so all about look and no stat gain) maybe giving players a "boss polymorph" or something like that... or perhaps special pets.. like "boss baby" pet... i mean something that does not give advantages stat wise but will be a nice prize as far as "honor" is concerned.

This way you take away the reason for casuals to wanting to finish those dungeons so no nerf required, you can make the vet dungeons even harder if hardcore players want to have "challenge" ad everyone would have advantages only.

Now i just hope people will stick to the "i don't want the nerf because i want challenge" because to find out that everyone would be pissed at not having "stat equipment drops" from those activities would totally destroy the "challenge" aspect of the request....

And this "having a chance to complete" seems to be related to the community issues, not to the difficulty per say.
As you can see, nerfs only cause negativity and controversy so it wont make the situation any better for people who get rejected in groups.
Also, equipment drops in normal version as well and the helms are being sold at the new merchant... And I really dont understand this. If a person is not interested in making an optimal build, why are they even concerned about a few % difference? These vr15 sets have the same properties and look the same.
Of course, minmaxers on forums and in guides will say "7/7 divines vr16 gold runes of gtfo", but you should keep in mind that its only for already optimized builds with good rotations etc. For someone who plays casually those % wont matter at all. And I dont mean they dont deserve to wear vr16 or other bs like this. I am a minmaxer myself, and I know that BiS gear only works if you make it work. If some people dont want to bother - its fine, its their choice. But they wont notice much (if any) difference in this case, so why bother? Cause Deltia said so?

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

And this "having a chance to complete" seems to be related to the community issues, not to the difficulty per say.
As you can see, nerfs only cause negativity and controversy so it wont make the situation any better for people who get rejected in groups.
Also, equipment drops in normal version as well and the helms are being sold at the new merchant... And I really dont understand this. If a person is not interested in making an optimal build, why are they even concerned about a few % difference? These vr15 sets have the same properties and look the same.
Of course, minmaxers on forums and in guides will say "7/7 divines vr16 gold runes of gtfo", but you should keep in mind that its only for already optimized builds with good rotations etc. For someone who plays casually those % wont matter at all. And I dont mean they dont deserve to wear vr16 or other bs like this. I am a minmaxer myself, and I know that BiS gear only works if you make it work. If some people dont want to bother - its fine, its their choice. But they wont notice much (if any) difference in this case, so why bother? Cause Deltia said so?

Because you're confusing "casuals i don't care about anything but the storyline" kind of people with "casual i have a family, a job, friends, and a lot of other things to do and i ncan't spend hours every day in game to obtain that stuff" kind of people i think... ^^

ESO is kind of a "mature" game in my opinion.. i don't think there are a lot of kids playing it so time WILL be an issue for a great majority of the playerbase

Shunravi

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

And this "having a chance to complete" seems to be related to the community issues, not to the difficulty per say.
As you can see, nerfs only cause negativity and controversy so it wont make the situation any better for people who get rejected in groups.
Also, equipment drops in normal version as well and the helms are being sold at the new merchant... And I really dont understand this. If a person is not interested in making an optimal build, why are they even concerned about a few % difference? These vr15 sets have the same properties and look the same.
Of course, minmaxers on forums and in guides will say "7/7 divines vr16 gold runes of gtfo", but you should keep in mind that its only for already optimized builds with good rotations etc. For someone who plays casually those % wont matter at all. And I dont mean they dont deserve to wear vr16 or other bs like this. I am a minmaxer myself, and I know that BiS gear only works if you make it work. If some people dont want to bother - its fine, its their choice. But they wont notice much (if any) difference in this case, so why bother? Cause Deltia said so?

Because you're confusing "casuals i don't care about anything but the storyline" kind of people with "casual i have a family, a job, friends, and a lot of other things to do and i ncan't spend hours every day in game to obtain that stuff" kind of people i think... ^^

ESO is kind of a "mature" game in my opinion.. i don't think there are a lot of kids playing it so time WILL be an issue for a great majority of the playerbase

Im sure plenty of casual family people dont want to see nerfs either... Just better access when they do get on.

LadyNalcarya

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

And this "having a chance to complete" seems to be related to the community issues, not to the difficulty per say.
As you can see, nerfs only cause negativity and controversy so it wont make the situation any better for people who get rejected in groups.
Also, equipment drops in normal version as well and the helms are being sold at the new merchant... And I really dont understand this. If a person is not interested in making an optimal build, why are they even concerned about a few % difference? These vr15 sets have the same properties and look the same.
Of course, minmaxers on forums and in guides will say "7/7 divines vr16 gold runes of gtfo", but you should keep in mind that its only for already optimized builds with good rotations etc. For someone who plays casually those % wont matter at all. And I dont mean they dont deserve to wear vr16 or other bs like this. I am a minmaxer myself, and I know that BiS gear only works if you make it work. If some people dont want to bother - its fine, its their choice. But they wont notice much (if any) difference in this case, so why bother? Cause Deltia said so?

Because you're confusing "casuals i don't care about anything but the storyline" kind of people with "casual i have a family, a job, friends, and a lot of other things to do and i ncan't spend hours every day in game to obtain that stuff" kind of people i think... ^^

ESO is kind of a "mature" game in my opinion.. i don't think there are a lot of kids playing it so time WILL be an issue for a great majority of the playerbase

Well, many people (almost everyone) in top guilds have friends, jobs and personal lives. So I wont say that in this case its a defining trait of a casual.

code65536

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Yeah, but how many casual players actually want instant gratification? Dont think its all of them. Judging by replies in this and other similar threads, there are community issues and negativity related to these dungeons and pugs. So imo difficulty is not even the main problem here. Inability to get involved in these endgame activities is a real problem... And nerfs only make things worse ("casuals vs hardcores" tensions).

I think it's not about "Instant gratification" but more about "having the chance to "compete" with eeryone else at least "statwise" or "equipmentwise" even without taking the game as a job or something like that... that i agree can be seen as wanting instant gratification lol.

Anyway... if it was me i would just take away ALL the special equipment that's possible to get by these "hardcore" things... like for example take away the vet16 helmets from the vet dungeon bosses and put them in the normal one so that everyone can find those... at the same time sostitute them with special COSTUMES (so all about look and no stat gain) maybe giving players a "boss polymorph" or something like that... or perhaps special pets.. like "boss baby" pet... i mean something that does not give advantages stat wise but will be a nice prize as far as "honor" is concerned.

This way you take away the reason for casuals to wanting to finish those dungeons so no nerf required, you can make the vet dungeons even harder if hardcore players want to have "challenge" ad everyone would have advantages only.

Now i just hope people will stick to the "i don't want the nerf because i want challenge" because to find out that everyone would be pissed at not having "stat equipment drops" from those activities would totally destroy the "challenge" aspect of the request....

You know, that "special" equipment isn't really all that special. It's like the difference between driving a Toyota or a Lexus. Yes, one is shinier than the other. But both will do the same job of getting you from home to work.

When my sorc hit VR1, I took him into vet Maelstrom and beat it using just crafted purple Julianos and Magnus and the really cheap Warlock jewelry that cost about 1K apiece from the guild stores. This game has a very generous and very powerful crafting system, and the difference between crafted gear and the absolute BiS dropped gear is small. It's important for people obsessed with having the absolute best, but when it comes to your ability to actually complete content, it makes virtually zero difference.

Gear and stats are not substitutes for experience and skill, and people who think that they need super-fancy gear in order to "keep up" would be in for a rude surprise if they actually get that gear because they'll be forced to confront the reality that it doesn't make a real difference in their performance.