Greed, greeed, greed

Kas

I'll make an attempt at an answer. This is purely a theory, but imho, a likely one.

ZoS is probably afraid to significantly raise the power cap in DB, especially by the introduction of new power levels (vet rank -> CP conversion) because people complained a lot when v16 was introduced because they had to get new sets of equip.

However, this was initially intended. Even V18 was intended for TG (and didn't make it in due to complains). The idea goes like this: Add new content, make some of it easy as normal mode and the gear-wise importnat part hard as vet content. As soon as new end content is available, the old content should be very easy due to players becoming stronger and stronger and available to the masses.

I cannot understand how you can form a group that has problems in CoA but at least WGT and especially ICP aren't that easy. I've done both in the first week of IC, have no-death achievments, and done very fast WGT runs to do more than 200 of them until I had the perfect SPC pieces I wanted (back then, not using my templar anymore now xDD) etc. But I can run with comparable players where everyone wants undaunted exp for a twink and still end up having hour-long, incredibly annoying runs. Those two aren't easy, refined builds and playstyles of experienced players just made it a walk-in-the-park.

However, they always were intended to eventueally become easy content for the masses. They're part of the daily rotation, scale down, don't have too special loot.

Personally, I would have loved new levels of gear, much higher CP caps, more stuff to do. But since we won't be getting that, ZOS still wants to make the content available for the masses. vMSA also feels much easier now than it used to be (imho this, again, is 90% due to player experience and the availability of guides and great gear and only 10% due to the nerfs it has seen already - except that crazy first two weeks of pts with the 50% damage) but MSA, MoL, (and probably scaled-up SO) will be the new hard content. Hopefully, we'll see more soon, but imho it's time to let the masses complete ICP/WGT without a struggle.

I really don't think we should complain about the nerfs, if anything, we (or better "you", because I didn't even set food into any of the TG content, just been PvP'ing because I don't find the gear appealing) should ask for new challenging content. Introducing new hard stuff and making the old end-game things easier and easier is a good model, imho. It just gets annoying if you don't add enough new content. (or in my case if it isn't rewarding enough and I don't touch it like I did with MoL)

lathbury

Svalinn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

I think, most players who want to see an achievement just fear, that they cannot be carried by the other groupmembers

Seriously....if i want a speedrun/no-death/hm whatever i ask some guys from my guilds who can do this. I won't ask in zonechat for this...

Yeah well... the thing is.. it's not "fun" having to spend hours looking for a party because the people refuse you based on an eperience you don't have with the dungeon you want to do thus making it impossible for you to build up such experience and be better with time... and unluckily this happens in ESO. most of the times even if you join a guild as a new player you'll find out that your owh guildmates will refuse to party up with you because you still have to learn and are not perfect yet.

Point is.. if new players don't have fun then ZOS will lose NEW CUSTOMERS... and new customers ARE the blood of the game as far as money goes.

So basically ZOS would lose customers and money because OLD players deny NEW players fun... see where it goes?

solutions:-
1)make your own group and learn it together
2) join a guild where they WILL teach you

LadyNalcarya

Destruent wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

It's sad to hear, that even in your guilds it's hard to find people for this challenges. But even if you can't find experienced people, why don't you just get 3 guys you like to play with and figure the mechanics out on your own (maybe watch some youtube videos/guides)? That's the way the experienced people got better and learned those content. everyone is able to do this. I know it's harder and takes a lot more time, but it's a posiibility and it's a lot more fun than getting "carried" by good players. Just my opinion...

I personally agree with this.. point is we have to take into consideration the TIME a player has to do such things. ACtually i do not think the majority of the playerbase for ESO are kids that just wants to play full day since the ES brandt is more a mature kind of.

This means that we're going to have a lot of people with jobs, families etc that do not have the time to spent in "searching for the perfect guild ever" or "staying in a dungeon 5 hours in a row to find out the mechanics" and so on.

Sure, but why do those players expect to beat the hardest content without effort? Some of us have fun beating hard content some not, that's ok. But both sides should have their part of the game

Exactly!
And from financial standpoint its also the best thing Zos can do. More customers = more money after all.
It is true that most of playerbase are casuals, but not all of them want instant gratification.

Destruent

It would be ok to nerf those two dungeons IF they introduce on or two new vetdungeons in the same DLC. But it seems like they only nerf the existing one. I don't mind the old dungeons being easy, but i mind the hardest one being a walk in the park.

Svalinn

Destruent wrote: »

Sure, but why do those players expect to beat the hardest content without effort? Some of us have fun beating hard content some not, that's ok. But both sides should have their part of the game

Agree with this too.. point is that "beating that content" gives out nice rewards.. my first thoughts goes to monster helmets od shoulder equips from the chests.

So well... putting rewards in a game is to encourage players to do those activities because you have them wanting the reward.

If for some reason a big part of your playerbase can't do that activity to get that reward... well they become unhappy plaers and unhappy players stop playing AND providing income to ZOS.

As i said IF i'm raight about this, and i could be easely wrong, i'd just take away the helmets atc and put them into the "easy mode" dungeon in order to give casuals what they want and leaving the hardcore players with the challenge of high lvl content.. this is of course if people really want the challenge and not the "fast run for the helmet".

Maybe changing the reward to more color dye for achievements in vet mode or other things like that thus having casual players not feeling "inferior" to the other ones at least equipment wise.

Just to make myself clear tho... what i'm doing here is just putting myself i the shoes of those kind of players and the devs, i personally have time to play and do not have all those issues if not for the fact that it's hard at times to find people to "vet dg" with.

LadyNalcarya

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

emily3989

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Company is making money, servers are populated and active, forums are very lively.

Not sure what bells and whistles should be going off at ZOS headquarters right now.

I know some other MMOs that do exactly what you say, very end game oriented, etc. and right now they are ghost towns, forums filled with maybe 60 elitists stroking each other's egos.

I kind of like what they got going on here - but if the next 3 DCL were all PVP and Trials I wouldn't really care either.

Reevster

Magdalina wrote: »

Reevster wrote: »

I just love the word "Casuals" Just because a player doesn't PvP or do so called "hard core content" does not mean they are "casual" I know players who spend 6 to 10 hours a day playing this game and they dont PvP, they farm, craft,manage guilds, manage their traders/sales /quest etc. That is like a full time job. Not even close to "Casual".

PvPers need to get over themselves, you are not the top of the food chain, actually this game would get along just fine without you. That said though , this game is healthier with "Both" So called "Casuals" and "PvPers" as far as the economy is concerned.

This topic is about PvE............
You know. The dungeons nerf.

Ya but, this "Why casuals are so entitled?" always just rubs me the wrong way , why do people need to keep bringing that foolishness up.

Destruent

Svalinn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Sure, but why do those players expect to beat the hardest content without effort? Some of us have fun beating hard content some not, that's ok. But both sides should have their part of the game

Agree with this too.. point is that "beating that content" gives out nice rewards.. my first thoughts goes to monster helmets od shoulder equips from the chests.

You can get the shoulders from all dailys and the helmet (aybe) from the cyrodiil-vendor. The only real difference are the traits on the helmet (rng vs infused) and the lootlvl (V15 in normal, V16 in vet) but the difference is so small, it doesn't really matter.

So vetmodes provide:
- achievements
- colours
- pets
- V16 gear instead of V15

you could also farm the first dungeons boss for trohies and open those vaults for V16 equip. So there is nothing really gamechanging handed out for doing vetmodes.

LadyNalcarya

emily3989 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Company is making money, servers are populated and active, forums are very lively.

Not sure what bells and whistles should be going off at ZOS headquarters right now.

I know some other MMOs that do exactly what you say, very end game oriented, etc. and right now they are ghost towns, forums filled with maybe 60 elitists stroking each other's egos.

I kind of like what they got going on here - but if the next 3 DCL were all PVP and Trials I wouldn't really care either.

I never asked for end game oriented, or pvp oriented game. That was only to illustrate how stupid it would be to make the game homogenous.
I just said that small percentage of playerbase should have a small percentage of content.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

A PvE will NEVER want to be forced to play in a PvP area in order to obtain PvE related stuff... that's just not fun and, from a PvE point of view, completely gamebreaking.

Putting PvE stuff into a PvP area is one of the worst thing a company could ever do if they want to have a pleased playerbase... and well... a lot of people complains about this (this time i think they're right) and will always complain about this.

Cadbury

Reevster wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Reevster wrote: »

I just love the word "Casuals" Just because a player doesn't PvP or do so called "hard core content" does not mean they are "casual" I know players who spend 6 to 10 hours a day playing this game and they dont PvP, they farm, craft,manage guilds, manage their traders/sales /quest etc. That is like a full time job. Not even close to "Casual".

PvPers need to get over themselves, you are not the top of the food chain, actually this game would get along just fine without you. That said though , this game is healthier with "Both" So called "Casuals" and "PvPers" as far as the economy is concerned.

This topic is about PvE............
You know. The dungeons nerf.

Ya but, this "Why casuals are so entitled?" always just rubs me the wrong way , why do people need to keep bringing that foolishness up.

Because human nature. People like to categorize the issues into a convenient "us vs. them" group mentality.

LadyNalcarya

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

A PvE will NEVER want to be forced to play in a PvP area in order to obtain PvE related stuff... that's just not fun and, from a PvE point of view, completely gamebreaking.

Putting PvE stuff into a PvP area is one of the worst thing a company could ever do if they want to have a pleased playerbase... and well... a lot of people complains about this (this time i think they're right) and will always complain about this.

Have you seen this vendor? She sells for gold as well.
And yeah, shes sitting at the safe zone at the entrance.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

A PvE will NEVER want to be forced to play in a PvP area in order to obtain PvE related stuff... that's just not fun and, from a PvE point of view, completely gamebreaking.

Putting PvE stuff into a PvP area is one of the worst thing a company could ever do if they want to have a pleased playerbase... and well... a lot of people complains about this (this time i think they're right) and will always complain about this.

Have you seen this vendor? She sells for gold as well.
And yeah, shes sitting at the safe zone at the entrance.

No i admit i didn't since i did have a break from the game for health reasons and i just came back but if that is the case then i apologize... thing is.. how am i supposed to know that if as a PvErs i don't even enter cyrodil? ^^

Destruent

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

A PvE will NEVER want to be forced to play in a PvP area in order to obtain PvE related stuff... that's just not fun and, from a PvE point of view, completely gamebreaking.

Putting PvE stuff into a PvP area is one of the worst thing a company could ever do if they want to have a pleased playerbase... and well... a lot of people complains about this (this time i think they're right) and will always complain about this.

Have you seen this vendor? She sells for gold as well.
And yeah, shes sitting at the safe zone at the entrance.

No i admit i didn't since i did have a break from the game for health reasons and i just came back but if that is the case then i apologize... thing is.. how am i supposed to know that if as a PvErs i don't even enter cyrodil? ^^

read patchnotes, ask guildmembers, ask in zonechat, ask in the forum...you don't even have to start the game to get this information.

emily3989

Where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as what % of the player base does what.

Svalinn

Destruent wrote: »

read patchnotes, ask guildmembers, ask in zonechat, ask in the forum...you don't even have to start the game to get this information.

ANd here you're thinking it wrong... it's not like you get into ESO and what you do is open the zone chat and ask: "ehy people, how can i have those vet16 piece of rare equipment without killing the bosses?"

And well.. when i googled for those i never found a single line of text about uch vendor selling with gold so.

Playing a game is about playing a game for many people, not about going into google and research the game like i would do for a university exam in order to find every single perfect detail to report.. se the point? ^^

If that is the case there should be some way of knowing it by playing the game... Imyself would do this just by adding some "NPC dialogs" in cities.. .something like:

"Have you heard the latest news? Seems that in cyrodill there's this new merchant that's making a ton of gold by selling these strange helms... i'll have to take my drunkyard of an husband and have him go there to open up shop too"

so that you at least give hints to the players actually playing the game.

Destruent

emily3989 wrote: »

Where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as what % of the player base does what.

Doesn't matter that much, everyone should have content he/she can enjoy, isn't it?

emily3989

Yes it does matter. When the OP starts off with "10% get this, etc" it means nothing if he is talking out the side of his neck. This is a perceived problem, no evidence of any actual problem that exists outside of his/her own reality.

Destruent

emily3989 wrote: »

Yes it does matter. When the OP starts off with "10% get this, etc" it means nothing if he is talking out the side of his neck. This is a perceived problem, no evidence of any actual problem that exists outside of his/her own reality.

Even if it's only 1%, why shouldn't they have challenging 4-men-content?

emily3989

Destruent wrote: »

emily3989 wrote: »

Where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as what % of the player base does what.

Doesn't matter that much, everyone should have content he/she can enjoy, isn't it?

The world belongs to ZOS, heck, even your character does, you are just renting it. If they don't have anything to offer a specific person, there are many, many, other options for them to go do.

If a company is going to change the direction of it's entire game, they are not going to be convinced by a post on their forums with fabricated statistics.

Destruent

If there is no playerbase for it, why do they design hard content like vMoL and vMSA and even want to make a vetmode for SO? Seems like there are enough player who would play harder groupcontent.

lathbury

emily3989 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

emily3989 wrote: »

Where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as what % of the player base does what.

Doesn't matter that much, everyone should have content he/she can enjoy, isn't it?

The world belongs to ZOS, heck, even your character does, you are just renting it. If they don't have anything to offer a specific person, there are many, many, other options for them to go do.

If a company is going to change the direction of it's entire game, they are not going to be convinced by a post on their forums with fabricated statistics.

what about an actual statistic like as per the poll 75% of people are against this decision

emily3989

The only people answering forum polls are those who are actually signed up for the forums, hardly the entire player base.

Heck, after assistants went on sale, at least 50 people created forum accounts to complain, only to find out there were tons of posts on them to begin with warning about the purchase.

emily3989

For the record, I am against decreasing the difficulty on anything, they should make all dungeons more difficult IMO.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

@KoshkaMurka I kinda agree with what your saying but I'm not really sure its catering. Now here me out because I believe you were also pc beta before you jumped to console so you know a good history of the game.

Prior to the first vet content difficulty downgrade bar swapping was mandatory. The player base was sharing double bar combos, how skills interact best, how you can put that all together. This was just for overland pve. However, it made sure all players understood movement, bar swapping, blocking, syngeries etc, etc. Pve overland was hard enough to give a good primer on Sanctum and such. A sense of 'hey you need to know all this to do that'.

Fast foward to today. Overland pve content 1-50, scaled wrothgar, silver/gold the majority (not all) can be done without bar swapping. On my dk orcs its armor, wb, fb, gb. Thats it, ult isnt needed, just a little resposition for world bosses and public bosses.

Now when players enter into diffcult group dungeons Im not all that sure the basics are understood- bar swapping, skills on both bars that make sense, group dynamics, positioning. All of this used to be taught in overland pve, it isnt today. To match the learning/difficulty curve of overland pve the group dungeons difficulty gets lowered.

DocFrost72

I think the disconnect here is real. Let me attempt to bridge the gap.

OP, ZoS made the decision ultimately, which means they have reasons to believe the changes were necessary. You have every right to disagree, but ultimately they did this. "Casuals" (which is a word with a negative connotation, BTW) are a scapegoat in this situation because we don't know why ZoS made the call. You can theorize but tbh that is *** all.

Yes hard content should exist, there is no question about it. But there is a limit on how far to go. In the words of Redbeard (the DC vet pledge character) "If you seek a greater challenge", disable your CP. I know, I know, "Why should I have to disable my well earned CP in order to get a challenge?" My answer: because you CAN disable your CP, while others can't just magically find the time to 'get good'. Who knows, maybe ZoS will implement an extra Key for those that disable CP spending in the future? That adds challenge without forcing it.

Hopefully this can help you understand why "casuals" such as myself did not ask for this, but aren't jumping up and down screaming and complaining that it is happening. How dare they take away YOUR challenge, I concur! After all, its all about entitlement.

Kwivur

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

It's just your mind trying to make sense of merging realities.

lathbury

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I think the disconnect here is real. Let me attempt to bridge the gap.

OP, ZoS made the decision ultimately, which means they have reasons to believe the changes were necessary. You have every right to disagree, but ultimately they did this. "Casuals" (which is a word with a negative connotation, BTW) are a scapegoat in this situation because we don't know why ZoS made the call. You can theorize but tbh that is *** all.

Yes hard content should exist, there is no question about it. But there is a limit on how far to go. In the words of Redbeard (the DC vet pledge character) "If you seek a greater challenge", disable your CP. I know, I know, "Why should I have to disable my well earned CP in order to get a challenge?" My answer: because you CAN disable your CP, while others can't just magically find the time to 'get good'. Who knows, maybe ZoS will implement an extra Key for those that disable CP spending in the future? That adds challenge without forcing it.

Hopefully this can help you understand why "casuals" such as myself did not ask for this, but aren't jumping up and down screaming and complaining that it is happening. How dare they take away YOUR challenge, I concur! After all, its all about entitlement.

the point here is there is normal mode and everyother dungeon for those who are unable or unwilling to learn these 3. what 4 man content is there for those of us who want a challenge?

rob_ber

I usually don't QQ about anything. Been playing from beta. I took sweet time to level my first toon, experienced unnerfed Doshia and Gutsripper, the Seasnake fight on a boat, .... good ol' times.

I remember the horrors when I first entered WGT and ICP, or SO or even CoA. But I tried and tried, failed many times, watched videos, learned from more experienced guildies and often held them back in the run and asked stupid questions (I thank you for that @lathbury @hydrocynus @KoshkaMurka and many more) but in the end I learned. Now all those "roadblocks" are pretty easy to finish. And learning the mechnics and the dungeons overall gave me feeling I achieved something.

I agree with @KoshkaMurka , lately people (not all) want to have everything served on silver platter, they want instant success without any effort and nerfing the "roadblocks" is another step in that direction.