Greed, greeed, greed

LadyNalcarya

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casualssome of the casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

Volkodav

Oh,no more about greed.It's their game and they can do what they want.They have that right.If we dont like it we can either quit,or just ignore it all.
Oh,and your bit about "casuals" is way off.We "PvErs",(not casual at all),arent entitled,we were just there first and there are a whole lot more of us.Our numbers pay their checks.

Magdalina

Volkodav wrote: »

Oh,no more about greed.It's their game and they can do what they want.They have that right.If we dont like it we can either quit,or just ignore it all.
Oh,and your bit about "casuals" is way off.We "PvErs",(not casual at all),arent entitled,we were just there first and there are a whole lot more of us.Our numbers pay their checks.

I'm sorry but did you even read the OP?

She is the PvE-er. You are evidently someone who doesn't know a difference between a dungeon and PvP.
I'm sorry if it came off harsh but that's EXACTLY what OP is talking about. You don't even bother reading anyone's messages before jumping in with your "entitlement". Crazy idea but what about other people?

OP I'm with you. Have a .

Looks like forum battles are the most challenging content we'll have in years to come

LadyNalcarya

Volkodav wrote: »

Oh,no more about greed.It's their game and they can do what they want.They have that right.If we dont like it we can either quit,or just ignore it all.
Oh,and your bit about "casuals" is way off.We "PvErs",(not casual at all),arent entitled,we were just there first and there are a whole lot more of us.Our numbers pay their checks.

Because greed is real.
The thing is, not all pvers want a 100% fail-proof content. And there should be a diversity since playerbase of this game is not homogenous. If the majority of players are pvers, should we remove pvp as well?
You'e right, casual players are the majority of the playerbase. But 1)not all casual players are entitled and 2)some casual players like some challenge and 3)"hardcore" players also pay for the game. And you cant use casual players as your shield, since you dont know if the majority actually cares about those dungeons and wants everything to be nerfed.

Destruent

Here's one more cookie for OP. I'd really like to know the answer...i asked it in the german section aswell, but didn't get an answer so far

Reevster

I just love the word "Casuals" Just because a player doesn't PvP or do so called "hard core content" does not mean they are "casual" I know players who spend 6 to 10 hours a day playing this game and they dont PvP, they farm, craft,manage guilds, manage their traders/sales /quest etc. That is like a full time job. Not even close to "Casual".

PvPers need to get over themselves, you are not the top of the food chain, actually this game would get along just fine without you. That said though , this game is healthier with "Both" So called "Casuals" and "PvPers" as far as the economy is concerned.

Magdalina

Reevster wrote: »

I just love the word "Casuals" Just because a player doesn't PvP or do so called "hard core content" does not mean they are "casual" I know players who spend 6 to 10 hours a day playing this game and they dont PvP, they farm, craft,manage guilds, manage their traders/sales /quest etc. That is like a full time job. Not even close to "Casual".

PvPers need to get over themselves, you are not the top of the food chain, actually this game would get along just fine without you. That said though , this game is healthier with "Both" So called "Casuals" and "PvPers" as far as the economy is concerned.

This topic is about PvE............
You know. The dungeons nerf.

MidnightBlue

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Destruent

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

Moonshadow66

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Its tiring to read whine thread after whine thread.

Unlike you, the OP has a point. You, however, are just whining about the thread.

SkoomaAddict420

How one programs a game is optional, subjective and requires common sense and a understanding of how to interpret reality
Into compiled scripts that have functionality . So there should be enough things for every player type to do in a mmorpg. I see no reason why the 10% should get to have their challenges as long as the gear and drops are not only available in thoughs dungeons making it only the 10% who can aquire that level of armor or what ever...

Options, options, and more options is my motto...

lathbury

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

lots of people help out hodor even post builds videos guides etc. I have took loads of people for their first run of this so called difficult content. in the threads posted.myself and a few others offered just that guess what no replies. the only conclusion i can draw is that the people for the nerf on the forums are to lazy to learn it and want ez mode. which as I said wouldn't be a problem to each their own but they already have that with normal mode.

MidnightBlue

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

Maybe it's just me being dumb or stubborn or being trolled on, but most of the people I've seen or talked to have said to not trust those internet guides since they don't disclose the best stuff or strategies in the game. So sometimes I don't bother. But yes I have read guides and they have helped me a bit, but it's still a struggle trying to get it done while teaching other people at the same time. I'm an average player at best, not the worst, but far from elite.

ADarklore

Well, as Matt Firor said in an interview a few weeks ago, they HAVE game data that shows everything every player is doing in-game... which means they KNOW how many have completed what content and how many have failed and how many of those players eventually left the game, etc. So it seems to me they would be making these decisions about changes based upon that game data, and if it is clear that an overwhelming MAJORITY of players are unable to finish specific content, then it explains why they would make changes to make the content easier.

Moonshadow66

I'm no casual by any means, but a 99% PvE (solo-) player. I do know that there's content I'm not really able to do and probably never will, but I can live with that. It's up to those who can, and they should have the fun they want with what the game currently has to offer with this more difficult and more challenging content. I don't need it to be nerfed just to do a "Sunday's afternoon walk" through that content while the more skilled players are bored to death after a nerf. This doesn't make sense at all. For the Eight's and the Three's sake, leave the challenging content as it is.

Destruent

MidnightBlue wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

Maybe it's just me being dumb or stubborn or being trolled on, but most of the people I've seen or talked to have said to not trust those internet guides since they don't disclose the best stuff or strategies in the game. So sometimes I don't bother. But yes I have read guides and they have helped me a bit, but it's still a struggle trying to get it done while teaching other people at the same time. I'm an average player at best, not the best, but far from elite.

Try tamrielfoundry.com, you'll find the best information about the game there imo. There are also some great guides in this forum. I know for a fact, that guilds like hodor usually publish most of their builds/strategies (especially for dungeons) and they are viable.
but sure, it's hard in the beginning, try to get a group of people you usually run with. Your runs will get smoother and you'll be able to even teach other new players how to beat specific dungeons or efficiently play a character. Enjoy it, this part of the game is the best imo

tinythinker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxYOQS6ggk

failkiwib16_ESO

..well with the removal of vet ranks this issue will intencify.

Imagine players hitting level 50, thinking they are well geared for all content in the game, goes into a dungeon and fails miserably at their role ..will end up confused untill they learn about champion points.

..once these same players achieve champion points to gear up in ancestor silk, rubedo leather and rubedite, they will face the fact that they lack decent BoP gear and additional champion points to be able to be competitive with all the players who have reached the cp.
If the said group of players stick to the game, and try to achieve higher goals for themselves, they will get a better understanding of why there is such a huge gap between experienced and inexperienced players - but that requires that they feel motivated to improve in the first place.

Daily pledges should have difficulty indicators:
Veteran Wayrest Sewers is a much easier daily pledge than veteran White Gold Tower

A player that is inexperienced get no indication through the game about the difficulty of the dungeon. So they do veteran Wayrest Sewers and think it is easy, good and fun.

Next day the same player who finished veteran Wayrest Sewers in the previous run gets a pledge for veteran White Gold Tower. Ends up failing miserably after hours of try and never gets to complete the "daily".

So it is fair and natural that these players want the dungeon nerfed, because for all they know it is a daily pledge and they should be able to complete it just like they did with veteran Wayrest Sewers. If these players had an indicator telling them the difficulty of the content is easy, hard or very hard, then they might not have the same expectations to succeed in veteran White Gold Tower as they have in veteran Wayrest Sewers.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

I'll tell you my thoughts on this matter.

I think that something is wrong when, in order to have fun, someone has to deny fun to other people.

I think that everything is fine when everyone can have fun without denying such fun to other people.

Now thinking like this.. Cyrodill and IC are great failures in the game because they are exploited by PvPers most of the time to "deny" the fun of PvErs by ganking etc... how would i solve htis? i'd simply take away all the skyshards, books and PvE reletaed content from cyrodil and IC leaving the area as a PvP ONLY.. but as it is now it gives anjoyment to a portion of the playerbase by ruining the game experience to the other ones.

I myself have not uch a big problem with those areas but i can see where the problem lie.

As far as dungeons, nerfs etc are concerned well.. i absolutly blame the "hardcore" playerbase for the nerfs. I have experienced this myself in the past actually... wanting to do a veteran dungeon for the first time... and finding NO ONE willing to come, even beside my own guildmates, because i wasn't a "pro" at the dungeon already and so the run would have been too slow.

THe truth is that many "hardcore" players refuse to party up with newer players because they want their run to be perfect and this result, most of the times, to newest player not having a chance of partecipating in group content unless they have a group of RL friends to go with them.

This is another example of how people deny fun to other people in order to have fun... and it's something wrong.

I'm quite sure that if people didn't start to ask for "achievements" before creating groups, did not refuse to party up with other players etc wel... the nerfing would not be in the game so if those people now complain i can just say "blame yourself".

lathbury

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, as Matt Firor said in an interview a few weeks ago, they HAVE game data that shows everything every player is doing in-game... which means they KNOW how many have completed what content and how many have failed and how many of those players eventually left the game, etc. So it seems to me they would be making these decisions about changes based upon that game data, and if it is clear that an overwhelming MAJORITY of players are unable to finish specific content, then it explains why they would make changes to make the content easier.

what that data does not show how ever is the reason they left or if they would have left anyway or how many will unsub or leave if nerfs like these are to become par for the course

Destruent

Svalinn wrote: »

As far as dungeons, nerfs etc are concerned well.. i absolutly blame the "hardcore" playerbase for the nerfs. I have experienced this myself in the past actually... wanting to do a veteran dungeon for the first time... and finding NO ONE willing to come, even beside my own guildmates, because i wasn't a "pro" at the dungeon already and so the run would have been too slow.

THe truth is that many "hardcore" players refuse to party up with newer players because they want their run to be perfect and this result, most of the times, to newest player not having a chance of partecipating in group content unless they have a group of RL friends to go with them.

This is another example of how people deny fun to other people in order to have fun... and it's something wrong.

I'm quite sure that if people didn't start to ask for "achievements" before creating groups, did not refuse to party up with other players etc wel... the nerfing would not be in the game so if those people now complain i can just say "blame yourself".

I think, most players who want to see an achievement just fear, that they cannot be carried by the other groupmembers

Seriously....if i want a speedrun/no-death/hm whatever i ask some guys from my guilds who can do this. I won't ask in zonechat for this...

LadyNalcarya

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

I'll tell you my thoughts on this matter.

I think that something is wrong when, in order to have fun, someone has to deny fun to other people.

I think that everything is fine when everyone can have fun without denying such fun to other people.

Now thinking like this.. Cyrodill and IC are great failures in the game because they are exploited by PvPers most of the time to "deny" the fun of PvErs by ganking etc... how would i solve htis? i'd simply take away all the skyshards, books and PvE reletaed content from cyrodil and IC leaving the area as a PvP ONLY.. but as it is now it gives anjoyment to a portion of the playerbase by ruining the game experience to the other ones.

I myself have not uch a big problem with those areas but i can see where the problem lie.

As far as dungeons, nerfs etc are concerned well.. i absolutly blame the "hardcore" playerbase for the nerfs. I have experienced this myself in the past actually... wanting to do a veteran dungeon for the first time... and finding NO ONE willing to come, even beside my own guildmates, because i wasn't a "pro" at the dungeon already and so the run would have been too slow.

THe truth is that many "hardcore" players refuse to party up with newer players because they want their run to be perfect and this result, most of the times, to newest player not having a chance of partecipating in group content unless they have a group of RL friends to go with them.

This is another example of how people deny fun to other people in order to have fun... and it's something wrong.

I'm quite sure that if people didn't start to ask for "achievements" before creating groups, did not refuse to party up with other players etc wel... the nerfing would not be in the game so if those people now complain i can just say "blame yourself".

But when casuals deny other's rights to have fun its also very wrong.
And while I agree about IC, its a different matter than nerfing dungeons. There's already a normal mode for those who dont like challenges. Its perfectly fine.
There are things in this game Ill never achieve. Like fishing, ist too time cinsuming for me. But I'm not begging for alternate way to earn those colors and title, and those who have it, deserved it.
Why people just dont wanna respect others and live with a fact that they dont have 100% completion? Or, if they actually want it, just put some effort?

Svalinn

Destruent wrote: »

I think, most players who want to see an achievement just fear, that they cannot be carried by the other groupmembers

Seriously....if i want a speedrun/no-death/hm whatever i ask some guys from my guilds who can do this. I won't ask in zonechat for this...

Yeah well... the thing is.. it's not "fun" having to spend hours looking for a party because the people refuse you based on an eperience you don't have with the dungeon you want to do thus making it impossible for you to build up such experience and be better with time... and unluckily this happens in ESO. most of the times even if you join a guild as a new player you'll find out that your owh guildmates will refuse to party up with you because you still have to learn and are not perfect yet.

Point is.. if new players don't have fun then ZOS will lose NEW CUSTOMERS... and new customers ARE the blood of the game as far as money goes.

So basically ZOS would lose customers and money because OLD players deny NEW players fun... see where it goes?

MaxwellC

They better not nerf those dungeons again; seriously if you can't do it by now it's your problem not the rest of the player base. You either have bad team-mates or bad team work pick and choose.

tinythinker

Svalinn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

I think, most players who want to see an achievement just fear, that they cannot be carried by the other groupmembers

Seriously....if i want a speedrun/no-death/hm whatever i ask some guys from my guilds who can do this. I won't ask in zonechat for this...

Yeah well... the thing is.. it's not "fun" having to spend hours looking for a party because the people refuse you based on an eperience you don't have with the dungeon you want to do thus making it impossible for you to build up such experience and be better with time... and unluckily this happens in ESO. most of the times even if you join a guild as a new player you'll find out that your owh guildmates will refuse to party up with you because you still have to learn and are not perfect yet.

Point is.. if new players don't have fun then ZOS will lose NEW CUSTOMERS... and new customers ARE the blood of the game as far as money goes.

So basically ZOS would lose customers and money because OLD players deny NEW players fun... see where it goes?

That's one reason I would like to see a commendation/mentoring system.

LadyNalcarya

MidnightBlue wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

Maybe it's just me being dumb or stubborn or being trolled on, but most of the people I've seen or talked to have said to not trust those internet guides since they don't disclose the best stuff or strategies in the game. So sometimes I don't bother. But yes I have read guides and they have helped me a bit, but it's still a struggle trying to get it done while teaching other people at the same time. I'm an average player at best, not the worst, but far from elite.

Well, I second the advice about tamrielfoundry.
Members of the top guilds post their bulds here. And I can confirm that those builds are 100% working. Efficiency depends on you player's skill (rotation etc) and gear of course, but theres a lot of good builds.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

But when casuals deny other's rights to have fun its also very wrong.
And while I agree about IC, its a different matter than nerfing dungeons. There's already a normal mode for those who dont like challenges. Its perfectly fine.
There are things in this game Ill never achieve. Like fishing, ist too time cinsuming for me. But I'm not begging for alternate way to earn those colors and title, and those who have it, deserved it.
Why people just dont wanna respect others and live with a fact that they dont have 100% completion? Or, if they actually want it, just put some effort?

My guess is that the problem with the vet dungeons and new players lies in the monster helmets that are heavely wanted pieces of equip.

Take away those and my guess is.. lot of new players won't be as bad as they do now about having to complete those with no-one willing to help them... that would probably upset the hardcore players tho unless they really only want the challenge... then they would have the challenge even without those helmets i guess...?

Might be wrong on this tho, it's just a thought ^^

Destruent

Svalinn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

I think, most players who want to see an achievement just fear, that they cannot be carried by the other groupmembers

Seriously....if i want a speedrun/no-death/hm whatever i ask some guys from my guilds who can do this. I won't ask in zonechat for this...

Yeah well... the thing is.. it's not "fun" having to spend hours looking for a party because the people refuse you based on an eperience you don't have with the dungeon you want to do thus making it impossible for you to build up such experience and be better with time... and unluckily this happens in ESO. most of the times even if you join a guild as a new player you'll find out that your owh guildmates will refuse to party up with you because you still have to learn and are not perfect yet.

Point is.. if new players don't have fun then ZOS will lose NEW CUSTOMERS... and new customers ARE the blood of the game as far as money goes.

So basically ZOS would lose customers and money because OLD players deny NEW players fun... see where it goes?

It's sad to hear, that even in your guilds it's hard to find people for this challenges. But even if you can't find experienced people, why don't you just get 3 guys you like to play with and figure the mechanics out on your own (maybe watch some youtube videos/guides)? That's the way the experienced people got better and learned those content. everyone is able to do this. I know it's harder and takes a lot more time, but it's a posiibility and it's a lot more fun than getting "carried" by good players. Just my opinion...

LadyNalcarya

@Svalinn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

I think, most players who want to see an achievement just fear, that they cannot be carried by the other groupmembers

Seriously....if i want a speedrun/no-death/hm whatever i ask some guys from my guilds who can do this. I won't ask in zonechat for this...

Yeah well... the thing is.. it's not "fun" having to spend hours looking for a party because the people refuse you based on an eperience you don't have with the dungeon you want to do thus making it impossible for you to build up such experience and be better with time... and unluckily this happens in ESO. most of the times even if you join a guild as a new player you'll find out that your owh guildmates will refuse to party up with you because you still have to learn and are not perfect yet.

Point is.. if new players don't have fun then ZOS will lose NEW CUSTOMERS... and new customers ARE the blood of the game as far as money goes.

So basically ZOS would lose customers and money because OLD players deny NEW players fun... see where it goes?

Well, why are you so focused on joining a random ICP pug instead of joining a good guild where people will explain you the tactics?
I have the achievements, but I dont join them.
And btw, usually most of feared "elitists" are just bad players who want carrying, not some super awesome experienced pros.

Svalinn

Destruent wrote: »

It's sad to hear, that even in your guilds it's hard to find people for this challenges. But even if you can't find experienced people, why don't you just get 3 guys you like to play with and figure the mechanics out on your own (maybe watch some youtube videos/guides)? That's the way the experienced people got better and learned those content. everyone is able to do this. I know it's harder and takes a lot more time, but it's a posiibility and it's a lot more fun than getting "carried" by good players. Just my opinion...

I personally agree with this.. point is we have to take into consideration the TIME a player has to do such things. ACtually i do not think the majority of the playerbase for ESO are kids that just wants to play full day since the ES brandt is more a mature kind of.

This means that we're going to have a lot of people with jobs, families etc that do not have the time to spent in "searching for the perfect guild ever" or "staying in a dungeon 5 hours in a row to find out the mechanics" and so on.

Destruent

Svalinn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

It's sad to hear, that even in your guilds it's hard to find people for this challenges. But even if you can't find experienced people, why don't you just get 3 guys you like to play with and figure the mechanics out on your own (maybe watch some youtube videos/guides)? That's the way the experienced people got better and learned those content. everyone is able to do this. I know it's harder and takes a lot more time, but it's a posiibility and it's a lot more fun than getting "carried" by good players. Just my opinion...

I personally agree with this.. point is we have to take into consideration the TIME a player has to do such things. ACtually i do not think the majority of the playerbase for ESO are kids that just wants to play full day since the ES brandt is more a mature kind of.

This means that we're going to have a lot of people with jobs, families etc that do not have the time to spent in "searching for the perfect guild ever" or "staying in a dungeon 5 hours in a row to find out the mechanics" and so on.

Sure, but why do those players expect to beat the hardest content without effort? Some of us have fun beating hard content some not, that's ok. But both sides should have their part of the game