Greed, greeed, greed

Shunravi

nvm

unnecessary comment

DaveMoeDee

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

You don't understand what communism is. People paying money for a game and then complaining if it isn't what they want is capitalism. You hate capitalism.

EgoRush

MidnightBlue wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

Maybe it's just me being dumb or stubborn or being trolled on, but most of the people I've seen or talked to have said to not trust those internet guides since they don't disclose the best stuff or strategies in the game. So sometimes I don't bother. But yes I have read guides and they have helped me a bit, but it's still a struggle trying to get it done while teaching other people at the same time. I'm an average player at best, not the worst, but far from elite.

With respect to Hodor we do take into account with applications that the DPS people post may not be their best due to group support. We look for a certain threshold, yes, but we're not expecting people to hit/exceed our numbers. People that show promise are tested with our raid group that provides full support and your DPS will be compared to people playing the same class during that same raid - everyone has good and bad days for DPS

As for guides, all the builds we use on Tamriel Foundry are up to date. We have vMOL-appropriate builds there, I've even talked through what I do healing it. For strategies don't be afraid to message people in the team, we're often happy to help (even if this annoys other 'elitist' guilds because we're giving stuff away...). We usually post videos and stream too so people can see how we do things. We didn't upload a last boss vMOL kill for a while though as we didn't want to ruin it for the other top guilds doing progression there. But then 3 weeks passed and others finally started clearing it, so we uploaded our first kill on the last boss

At least for Hodor I can tell you we're happy to help, just reach out and ask if you're unsure of things.

failkiwib16_ESO

The thing about rewarding endgamers for challenging content with a skin, we already have a lot of casuals who are roleplayers and complain about not being able to access the skin of Maw of Lorkhaj trial.

I don't think the entitlement and request to gain access to the best gear, most wanted achievements etc. will not end regardless of what the reward is, and the fact that we don't have dungeon difficulty indicators is not helping us either.

Btw. I doubt many new or casual players would feel so entitled, if hard dungeons such as veteran ICP had an indicator saying it was "EXTREMELY HARD". I think they would have a more humble approach toward the content -at the moment they are just thrown a pledge quest at their heads and not warned about anything, so of course they are going to think that the content is ment for their capabilities and complain when they can't complete it.


Edit: the bold text -.-

Svalinn

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

I don't think the entitlement and request to gain access to the best gear, most wanted achievements etc. will end

It will NEVER end: humans always wants more it's our nature.

This is the thing: when i was studying management one of my teachers said something about what a professional is:

"a professional is not someone that has a study degree or anything else but it's decided by his ability to solve problems. Every time a problem is solved at least another problem comes out, it's impossible to solve ALL problems. If by solving one problem he creates 2 different problems then you're not dealing with a professional... but if someone manage to solve 3 problems and only 1 is created then that person is beeing a professional".

So well, if with a change we can please the hardcore fans and the casuals, 2 problem solved, leaving 1 part having a problem still, it's fine for me because "solving everything for everyone" well.. this is plain impossible :P

hydrocynus

Soooooo much text in all these posts ......

Anyone got a summary?

kylewwefan

I've had ICP and WGT as random daily extra Xp many times. Haven't beaten them once. Usually don't make it past the first boss, or the first trash mobs take 10 minutes to clear.....I just back out, re roll. Try another. Those two dungeons need some serious nerfing to be handled by the average pug.

Destruent

kylewwefan wrote: »

I've had ICP and WGT as random daily extra Xp many times. Haven't beaten them once. Usually don't make it past the first boss, or the first trash mobs take 10 minutes to clear.....I just back out, re roll. Try another. Those two dungeons need some serious nerfing to be handled by the average pug.

Those two dungeons are not meant to be done with a randomgroup without groupcoordination and talking about tactics. What's the problem with it? Most content cane be done with pugs, not everything has to imo.

lathbury

hydrocynus wrote: »

Soooooo much text in all these posts ......

Anyone got a summary?

nerfing 2 semi challenging vet dungeons and one easy one because people cant do them.
some are for having all content doable by everyone
some like a challenge and are against

failkiwib16_ESO

Svalinn wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

I don't think the entitlement and request to gain access to the best gear, most wanted achievements etc. will end

It will NEVER end: humans always wants more it's our nature.

This is the thing: when i was studying management one of my teachers said something about what a professional is:

"a professional is not someone that has a study degree or anything else but it's decided by his ability to solve problems. Every time a problem is solved at least another problem comes out, it's impossible to solve ALL problems. If by solving one problem he creates 2 different problems then you're not dealing with a professional... but if someone manage to solve 3 problems and only 1 is created then that person is beeing a professional".

So well, if with a change we can please the hardcore fans and the casuals, 2 problem solved, leaving 1 part having a problem still, it's fine for me because "solving everything for everyone" well.. this is plain impossible :P

Aah I forgot to write "not" >.<

I agree with you it is human nature, and it will never end.

kylewwefan

Destruent wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I've had ICP and WGT as random daily extra Xp many times. Haven't beaten them once. Usually don't make it past the first boss, or the first trash mobs take 10 minutes to clear.....I just back out, re roll. Try another. Those two dungeons need some serious nerfing to be handled by the average pug.

Those two dungeons are not meant to be done with a randomgroup without groupcoordination and talking about tactics. What's the problem with it? Most content cane be done with pugs, not everything has to imo.

I completely agree on those dungeons not meant to be random grouped. But the Game put me in that random group. Zenimax set me up for failure

Destruent

kylewwefan wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I've had ICP and WGT as random daily extra Xp many times. Haven't beaten them once. Usually don't make it past the first boss, or the first trash mobs take 10 minutes to clear.....I just back out, re roll. Try another. Those two dungeons need some serious nerfing to be handled by the average pug.

Those two dungeons are not meant to be done with a randomgroup without groupcoordination and talking about tactics. What's the problem with it? Most content cane be done with pugs, not everything has to imo.

I completely agree on those dungeons not meant to be random grouped. But the Game put me in that random group. Zenimax set me up for failure

So the solution should be: Exclude vICP/vWGT from the random dungeon finder. Problem solved. nerfing those isn't a solution. It's not fair to punish those who mastered their class/groupplay/dungeons etc. Believe me...it's not fun to just strait burn a whole dungeon. Maybe once or twice...but not everytime you do it. I'm fine (and i think most other players too) with old dungeons get easier over time (more CP, better equip and so on) but nerfing the two "hardest" dungeons without creating some new is just disappointing.
Some players like easy mode: normal dungeons, scaling down dungeons, maybe some vetdungeons
some players like a little challenge, but not that much: vet-dungeons, hardmodes and so on
Some players like a real challenge: vWGT/vICP...but even now they are not that hard for us...

So ZOS will leave one group without any content...trials and solocontent are not the solution (but i really like the trials) bc you will not have 12 people availabe all the time. 4-men Content is also a bit more relaxed imo

hydrocynus

lathbury wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

Soooooo much text in all these posts ......

Anyone got a summary?

nerfing 2 semi challenging vet dungeons and one easy one because people cant do them.
some are for having all content doable by everyone
some like a challenge and are against

Ahh yes people feel like everything must be given to them. That old chestnut.

kylewwefan

I'm alright with that. Take it out of the random lineup. I am getting tired of dire frost keep and banished cells.

Shunravi

kylewwefan wrote: »

I'm alright with that. Take it out of the random lineup. I am getting tired of dire frost keep and banished cells.

Aye. Its just a bad attempt at a marketing gimic anyways.

LadyNalcarya

newtinmpls wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Why casuals are so entitled?

Please stop with the labeling. You did really well when you said it's not the PvPers or the PvEers - and frankly it's not the "casuals" either.

I'm a casual.

I've played since about two months after PC launch, I sub two accounts and run about 15 characters, most of whom are NOT vet.

I've never done trials, Maelstrom, or White Gold Tower.

And I don't care.

Much of the "such and so percent can do it well" are the such and so percent that have been playing for so long that they just know the system really really well. As a slow/tiny example, I've (finally) done non-vet Fungal Grotto enough times that I can anticipate the "next" thing.

If I ever get to the point where I've tried Maelstrom (or whatever) that many times, I'll likely have much less trouble with with it.

The "nerf NOW" crowd need to learn patience. Unfortunately that's not a game issue, it's a life issue.

As I said, Im sorry that I was too emotional when writing the post. This Zos' decision was quite shocking for me.
I didnt mean all casuals, I meant those who use "Im a casual player" as a shield for their agenda. I have absolutely nothing against adequate people, no matter how dedicated they are - its just a game. People who wanna ruin the game for everyone else though... That's another story. My point is that the game needs variety, and nerfing 3 last pieces of 4 man content with "above average' difficulty is just unfair. Those dungeons were nerfed several times already.

ArchMikem wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

But this decision of Zos removes the only pieces of 4man endgame content in this game. Those dungeons have been nerfed multiple times already, and in a really harsh way. Now people who like the fact that those dungeons were harder than others, and also paid for the game, are screwed. Dont you see a problem here?

How are they screwed? I honestly don't get it, what do you get out of doing a dungeon that's especially difficult to finish? You're just gonna get some armor piece, maybe a weapon you don't want, and then do it over again. And again. Like the other people here that say they've done them hundreds of times for loot drops. The logical thing that could be done is to lessen the difficulty so the whole process is less strenuous.

Or maybe I just don't belong in the "MMO Crowd". It's too bad though, Elder Scrolls being such a great universe and game but this being made as an MMORPG has brought in a playerbase that's way out of my comfort zone. There's absolutely nothing wrong with "Casuals". Games were originally meant as relaxing entertainment, but there are many people here, not you personally, that just love to *** on the little guy.

There wont be ANY remotely challenging 4 man content in a whole (really huge) game. Isnt that a bit harsh for their loyal customers? Those might not be the majority, but those who want to nerf everything arent nessesarily in the majority, too... Even though casuals are the majority, not everyone uses playing casually as a shield to demand what they want. Look at this thread - some people dont care about those dungeons, some just had bad experiences with groups (which is a social issue), etc...
Also even though TES games are pretty casual, there's still some challenging pieces - remember Vivec, Almalexia or Gedna Relvel (spelling?) from Morrowind? Or Ebony Warrior in Skyrim. Not everything is meant to be facerolled. You're right, ESO is catering to TES fans. But TES games do not have to be super easy, its not something like candy crush. The populatity of the mods that make the gameplay harder proves it. So the most logical solution would be to make something for every category of players.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

There wont be ANY remotely challenging 4 man content in a whole (really huge) game.

This, this is the problem of the whole situation.

"no more challenging content" people should reason about "no more challenging content for who?".

Because i can totally understand some people getting upset at "II, myself, won't have any more challenging content in the game for a while"... and i will simpatize with you at the exact same way i simpatize with Saitama in One Punch Man because it means that you got so strong everything seems easy to you.

But at the same time well.. people should realise that the content "no more challenging or them", is still "extremly difficult" for a lot of other people.

This said.. i am kind of in the middle because i find myself beeing one of the guys that really wants to spend time learning mechanics and stuff BUT:

- to hardcore players i'm too weak so i can't party with them
- to many casual players i want to spend to much time learning stuff so i can't party with them

^^

What i'd just do is yeah... nerf the vet dungeons... but at the same tie introduce for all dungeons a "nightmare" mode that's ALL about challenge and difficulty without any "stat giving" reward in them to please the hardcores that wants challenge giving them the chance of having a "global scoreboard" so that they can compete on time etc like it is now with trials.

LadyNalcarya

Volkodav wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Oh,no more about greed.It's their game and they can do what they want.They have that right.If we dont like it we can either quit,or just ignore it all.
Oh,and your bit about "casuals" is way off.We "PvErs",(not casual at all),arent entitled,we were just there first and there are a whole lot more of us.Our numbers pay their checks.

Because greed is real.
The thing is, not all pvers want a 100% fail-proof content. And there should be a diversity since playerbase of this game is not homogenous. If the majority of players are pvers, should we remove pvp as well?
You'e right, casual players are the majority of the playerbase. But 1)not all casual players are entitled and 2)some casual players like some challenge and 3)"hardcore" players also pay for the game. And you cant use casual players as your shield, since you dont know if the majority actually cares about those dungeons and wants everything to be nerfed.

I never said a word about everything being fail proof,or wanting no PvPers ingame.Not at all. And you are right.I dont know what trhe majority of players care about.As with all other people here who have their day,they too often speak out saying they know w hat others want.None of us really do. I dont know what "entitlement" you mean,a I have none at all.
My remark was just because I was tired of all the "ZOS is greedy" stuff posted here.
Anyone can get a bit annoyed at times,and make a comment about it.
Having said that,I still think people should get over their ire at ZOS making money on anything.That's what they are in business for,..making money.Not to just give it all for free. People dont want to pay subs,they dont want to have a crown store,they dont like this,they dont like that,etc.
It just gets under my skin at times.Others can bi-tch,why not me too?
An official apology is what you want?
Fine,.you got it.

The post is not about Zos, its about players who want everything without effort. The discussion though made me rethink my initial statement - seems like its mostly a pug community problem and daily pledge problem.
And yeah, my OP post was angry. I was really angry when I saw that in the news.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.

You don't understand what communism is. People paying money for a game and then complaining if it isn't what they want is capitalism. You hate capitalism.

Then you probably misunderstood. Selling more and catering to bigger audience is a logical thing if we're talking about capitalism. This game had different categories of players in its playerbase, and its not wise to reject one of them.
And even though casuals are the biggest demographic, not all of them are instant gratification gamers. Those gamers use the numbers of casuals as their shield, but casual is not an ideology or mindset, its just not being super dedicated. It doesnt mean that all of them want the nerfs or even care.

LadyNalcarya

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

There wont be ANY remotely challenging 4 man content in a whole (really huge) game.

This, this is the problem of the whole situation.

"no more challenging content" people should reason about "no more challenging content for who?".

Because i can totally understand some people getting upset at "II, myself, won't have any more challenging content in the game for a while"... and i will simpatize with you at the exact same way i simpatize with Saitama in One Punch Man because it means that you got so strong everything seems easy to you.

But at the same time well.. people should realise that the content "no more challenging or them", is still "extremly difficult" for a lot of other people.

This said.. i am kind of in the middle because i find myself beeing one of the guys that really wants to spend time learning mechanics and stuff BUT:

- to hardcore players i'm too weak so i can't party with them
- to many casual players i want to spend to much time learning stuff so i can't party with them

^^

What i'd just do is yeah... nerf the vet dungeons... but at the same tie introduce for all dungeons a "nightmare" mode that's ALL about challenge and difficulty without any "stat giving" reward in them to please the hardcores that wants challenge giving them the chance of having a "global scoreboard" so that they can compete on time etc like it is now with trials.

I dont think these dungeons are hard, to be honest. By challenging I mean harder than the rest of the content, and they surely are. The rest depends on group synergy, players etc.
P.S. If anything, I never meant that all dungeons should be "harder than average". IMo, variety is good, and lack of thereof is horrible.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I dont think these dungeons are hard, to be honest.

Once again: THIS is the problem with this situation ^^

What YOU think, is NOT what other people think and no, i'm not saying this to attack you or anything... just spelling it out hoping that someone will udnerstand that "i" does not compare to "everyone" or "the majority":)

That's why i said people should try and understand that "for me they are not hard" does not mean that "for everyone else they are not hard".

In fact ESO content is extremly hard for most players

AddictionX

hydrocynus wrote: »

Soooooo much text in all these posts ......

Anyone got a summary?

Its just people moaning about the end of the world apparently and why it should matter to anyone else other than them.

LadyNalcarya

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I dont think these dungeons are hard, to be honest.

Once again: THIS is the problem with this situation ^^

What YOU think, is NOT what other people think and no, i'm not saying this to attack you or anything... just spelling it out hoping that someone will udnerstand that "i" does not compare to "everyone"

That's why i said people should try and understand that "for me they are not hard" does not mean that "for everyone else they are not hard".

In fact ESO content is extremly hard for most players

My personal opinion doesnt matter in this case...
Those dungeons are harder than Spindle or Wayrest sewers, and this is a fact.
They were nerfed and going to be nerfed again, this is a fact.
This already causes a lot of harm for the community and hurts the variety of the game - this is a fact.

Shunravi

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I dont think these dungeons are hard, to be honest.

Once again: THIS is the problem with this situation ^^

What YOU think, is NOT what other people think and no, i'm not saying this to attack you or anything... just spelling it out hoping that someone will udnerstand that "i" does not compare to "everyone" or "the majority":)

That's why i said people should try and understand that "for me they are not hard" does not mean that "for everyone else they are not hard".

In fact ESO content is extremly hard for most players

I prefer variety thank you very much.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

LMAO did you just call a change to the game communist?

LoL yes, sometimes you think that the word "communist" has simply become the contrary of "competitive" in recent US slang ;-)

LadyNalcarya

Shunravi wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I dont think these dungeons are hard, to be honest.

Once again: THIS is the problem with this situation ^^

What YOU think, is NOT what other people think and no, i'm not saying this to attack you or anything... just spelling it out hoping that someone will udnerstand that "i" does not compare to "everyone" or "the majority":)

That's why i said people should try and understand that "for me they are not hard" does not mean that "for everyone else they are not hard".

In fact ESO content is extremly hard for most players

I prefer variety thank you very much.

Same here.
There is a variety of players, so there should be variety of content.

Svalinn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

This already causes a lot of harm for the community and hurts the variety of the game - this is a fact.

No it's not, the "fact" is that this causes a lot of harm to YOU and it hurst the variaty of the game in YOUR personal opinion.

IF they are changing it this way it just means that YOU, and people that thinks like you, are a minority in the playerbase.. simple as that.

This said let me repeat myself once more.. i would nerf them to please the "casuals".. and at the same time i'd introduce a nightmare mode that's all about challenge for you guys... i am NOT against you having challenging content.

I am tho, against you thinking that if something hurts you automatically hurts everyone else because that is not the case.

Shunravi

Svalinn wrote: »

I am tho, against you thinking that if something hurts you automatically hurts everyone else because that is not the case.

Is that the impression you get from the discussion?

Huh.

You see, i see it as an issue that there are people with desires in the game. Nerfs will hurt a portion if the playerbase, not everyone.

And to turn what i see as your argument around, just because some people have issues with it, that doesnt mean everyone does. So the 'need to nerf it' is not an issue that hurts everyone, some can manage just fine.

LadyNalcarya

Svalinn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

This already causes a lot of harm for the community and hurts the variety of the game - this is a fact.

No it's not, the "fact" is that this causes a lot of harm to YOU and it hurst the variaty of the game in YOUR personal opinion.

IF they are changing it this way it just means that YOU, and people that thinks like you, are a minority in the playerbase.. simple as that.

This said let me repeat myself once more.. i would nerf them to please the "casuals".. and at the same time i'd introduce a nightmare mode that's all about challenge for you guys... i am NOT against you having challenging content.

I am tho, against you thinking that if something hurts you automatically hurts everyone else because that is not the case.

I dont think you understood me...
Apparently, there is a huge problem when casual players are getting harrased and rejected due to not having achievements. Mostly by other casuals, that happen to have more optimized builds or just want others to carry them. Drastic changes in a favor of one of the player groups (and yeah, casuals are not a homogenous group) causes a lot of tension - remember how much heat IC caused?
It doent make the community more friendly, it only makes the segregation more aggravating.
There are better ways to improve players experience. Adding incentive to help first-timers instead of avoiding them. Make the grinds less painful so people wont strive for super fast runs (and this will benefit casuals much more than ANY nerf, by the way). Exclude these dungeons from pledge list. Etc...

CJohnson81

SkoomaAddict420 wrote: »

How one programs a game is optional, subjective and requires common sense and a understanding of how to interpret reality
Into compiled scripts that have functionality . So there should be enough things for every player type to do in a mmorpg. I see no reason why the 10% should get to have their challenges as long as the gear and drops are not only available in thoughs dungeons making it only the 10% who can aquire that level of armor or what ever...

Options, options, and more options is my motto...

This argument had a problem. If the game has a reward for a challenge, that reward should NOT also be available in another way. These aren't rewards for participation, they are for accomplishment. I'm fine with rewards being locked behind tough content because if it's a piece I want, I'd have to learn how to get it. That's how you encourage your player base to get better and work together. Common goals can challenge you to improve.

Svalinn

deleted comment becasue quoting is not working properly