When Vet Ranks are Removed, What will be the Max Level?

Gedalya

When the vet ranks are removed, what will the max level in the game be? Will it be level 50? Or level 65? Also if it is level 50; is there a point in leveling up my vet rank aside from CP?

Mcwoods55

Gedalya wrote: »

When the vet ranks are removed, what will the max level in the game be? Will it be level 50? Or level 65? Also if it is level 50; is there a point in leveling up my vet rank aside from CP?

level 50. and yes/no. Yes for now and no for later. Once they drop the DLC you will have at least 160 CP which will be like being vr16 and even though you were only vr9 you will be able to dawn current vr16 gear and consume vr16 potions. Everything is going to go to CP requirements.

All vr 16 will be CP 160 and from what I have ready we will at least have 160 cps when they drop. If you don't currently they will give them to you.

I am assuming that is per account not per char...

Oompuh

50, gear will be based off CP once after 50

As for getting an alt to v16 now, it only takes a couple days if you grind hard. It's really up to you if you want to play it before DB

Paulington

As far as we know (from a post in November 2015) it will be level 50.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

Mcwoods55

Oompuh wrote: »

50, gear will be based off CP once after 50

As for getting an alt to v16 now, it only takes a couple days if you grind hard. It's really up to you if you want to play it before DB

Takes a couple days??? what straight 24/7.. I mean how do you figure that? What are you doing to get that?
I am using cake and exp scroll while grinding in old orsinium and I am guessing I would have to take today and tomorrow off and play non stop to get to lvl 16 by end of cake...

Acsvf

CP 160

Paulington

Mcwoods55 wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

50, gear will be based off CP once after 50

As for getting an alt to v16 now, it only takes a couple days if you grind hard. It's really up to you if you want to play it before DB

Takes a couple days??? what straight 24/7.. I mean how do you figure that? What are you doing to get that?
I am using cake and exp scroll while grinding in old orsinium and I am guessing I would have to take today and tomorrow off and play non stop to get to lvl 16 by end of cake...

Grinding in the right place at the right time. IC Sewers at 4am for example is about 2.5-3 VRs per hour, so you can do VR1 to VR16 in less than six hours with a break or two.

Mcwoods55

Paulington wrote: »

As far as we know (from a post in November 2015) it will be level 50.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

Thanks for this!

I am confused though. I have heard the 10 cp = 1 vr so the 160 cp for vr 16... But from what I was told I thought if you had over 160 you get nothing... but now they are going to give me 40 cps when they make the change? So they actually made me stronger (because they are keeping the attributes and giving me 40 cps to distribute).... COOL!

Paulington

Mcwoods55 wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

As far as we know (from a post in November 2015) it will be level 50.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

Thanks for this!

I am confused though. I have heard the 10 cp = 1 vr so the 160 cp for vr 16... But from what I was told I thought if you had over 160 you get nothing... but now they are going to give me 40 cps when they make the change? So they actually made me stronger (because they are keeping the attributes and giving me 40 cps to distribute).... COOL!

If it remains unchanged from the plan Rich outlined then if you have a VR16 then you will be given 40 CP "for free" upon removal of VRs. If you are VR16 with <160 CP they will give you the CP required to boost you to 160 CP instead.

Of course this may have all changed, if only @ZOS_RichLambert would give us some more info, hint hint. .

NateAssassin

Can't wait to see people's reaction when they make cp per character, so they have to regrind 501 cp again on every single character.

Gedalya

Thanks guys and gals. Ok next question; I'm reading VR16 = 160 CP. However I have 360 some odd CP at the moment. Is there going to be a cap of CP at 160 related back to what was VR16, adfinitum, or will there be a cap like there is now?

Valrien

NateAssassin wrote: »

Can't wait to see people's reaction when they make cp per character, so they have to regrind 501 cp again on every single character.

I really only play my Sorcerer so I'd probably just delete my alts and keep doing what I'm doing lol.

NewBlacksmurf

Gedalya wrote: »

When the vet ranks are removed, what will the max level in the game be? Will it be level 50? Or level 65? Also if it is level 50; is there a point in leveling up my vet rank aside from CP?

50
I think there is a point to level up because many are assuming based on some early ZOS thoughts that the cp will allow them to equip and jump from level v1 to comparable vr16 stats, skill PTS and gear requirements.

If any of that doesn't go as shared, you and those who think that way are screwed.

tinythinker

As far as traditional levels, still 50 like it is now. As far as post-50 progression, ultimately, the max potential level will be Champion Rank 3600, but, as others have mentioned, it will initially be capped around Champion Rank 551 (current cap 501+50 cap raise for Dark Brotherhood) and current max gear will be translated to CR 160. So, it depends on which type of max you want to look at.

Kanar

NateAssassin wrote: »

Can't wait to see people's reaction when they make cp per character, so they have to regrind 501 cp again on every single character.

Has there been word that they will do this? If they keep it the way it is then my alts will get much tougher because of the 1 sp/10 cp, but if they take away my alts cp then it will suck.

codybrewer78b14_ESO

Is it just me or does this whole thing seem really risky on the part of ZOS? If this goes as wrong as it looks like it will, there will be a lot of pissed off players and it could kill the game. I have subscribed to this game since day 1 and have always had a positive outlook on decisions ZOS made. I'm not one of these guys who gets on the forums and whines daily or predicts the end of ESO. I have to say though this look to be a total cluster f*@#!

Wuuffyy

I really don't won't to grind for new gear or something. I have over 30 yellow items for one character alone and I love to alternate gear based on situation. Remaking it all or remaking new or better gear makes it really difficult to have fun playing for several months.
Edit: Which is what I believe this change will bring.

rotaugen454

NateAssassin wrote: »

Can't wait to see people's reaction when they make cp per character, so they have to regrind 501 cp again on every single character.

Yeah, show even a single link about that. Nice try on sending the player base into a panic.

Guppet

Kanar wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Can't wait to see people's reaction when they make cp per character, so they have to regrind 501 cp again on every single character.

Has there been word that they will do this? If they keep it the way it is then my alts will get much tougher because of the 1 sp/10 cp, but if they take away my alts cp then it will suck.

It has not even so much as been hinted at. It's not going to happen. He is trying to wind people up. They are removing vet levels to remove the grind, this would replace it with the same grind again.

Gidorick

I personally feel like they are making a mistake... I suggested a while back that ZOS convert Vet Ranks to levels... and leave CPs as a "horizontal progression" thing...

I explain why this would be better here:

Gidorick wrote: »

I have another thread that outlines HOW Vet Ranks can be changed to levels with numbers and charts and graphs HERE... that's not what this thread is. This thread is to offer an alternative to the handful of "Remove/Don't Remove Veteran Ranks" threads that have popped up recently.

While it is true that ZOS has said they would remove Veteran Ranks (and they kind of HAVE to at this point, if for no other reason than to save face) they don't have to castrate everyone's character that has earned Vet Ranks at level 50. ZOS could simply remove the Veteran Ranks and raise the level cap to 80, which is just about the XP equivalent of VR 16. You are probably wondering why ZOS would want to do this. Well... lets give 4 reasons!

• Preserve gear and provisions!
  I really can't imagine what ZOS is going to do about gear requirements and provisioning requirements without post-50 levels. They could have them dependent on champion points where 30 or so champion points is the equivalent to one level. This just seems like a bad idea since champion points can be earned by characters who are below level 50. Would a level 45 character who has 500 CPs suddenly be able to use VR 16 equivalent equipment as soon as they reach level 50? That seems to be a really good way to completely destroy post 50 progression. But maybe that's what they are looking to do.
• Seamless progression!
  The idea of Veteran Ranks for an Elder Scrolls game always seemed odd to me. Having straight levels past 50 to progress through would make the game seem much more seemless than the segmentation we see now.
• Faster post 50 leveling milestones!
  People like to progress. Seeing that bar fill and that number go up is satisfying. By converting Vet Ranks to levels players will level through post 50 progression much faster than they do now... or so it would seem.
• Battle Leveling friendly!
  With Battle Leveling being used in DLC many of us hope the mechanic will some-day allow us to scale downward to older zones so all zones can always be viable for play. Battle leveling from level 23 to level 80 makes much more sense, and is easier to comprehend, than battle leveling from level 23 to Veteran 16.

Now, I completely understand that a few of these points becomes moot if ZOS just cuts leveling off at 50. End game progression wouldn't exist and battle leveling would be to level 50... both of those things seem like they would hinder the future of the game and would dissuade player from continued play. People like to progress! Converting Veteran Ranks to Levels would preserve that long-progression, but would just make it much more accessible than it is now.

Anyway... Those are my thoughts. What are yours?

I outline my core concept here:

Gidorick wrote: »

This is a similar, but different concept for Veteran Rank replacement. While I am still suggesting VR be replaced with straight levels there are enough differences for me to just make a new thread. This thread does not suggest that we continue progression past level cap… I’ve separated that into another thread.

TL/DR
ZOS should convert Veteran Ranks to 30 levels, distributing the skill points of the 16 Vet Ranks accordingly.

Topics:

• Immediately raise the level cap to 80
• Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
• Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
• Current VR Rank Conversion

Immediately raise the level cap to 80
Soon, each VR Rank takes 850K XP to achieve. This is a daunting a task for many players, especially considering that the average XP requirement per level 41-50 is about 111,000 XP. Taking the average multiplier between levels 10-50 we can see a progression that is much more gradual and in line with the average increase in the XP required for each level prior to level 50.

In this post 50 Level system proposition, the first level in which players are required to achieve more than 1 million XP would be level 80, the suggested CAP. Level 80 would require 1,020,034 XP to reach.

The TOTAL number of XP required to level from VR1 to VR16 is 12,750,000. This proposed change would increase the total number of XP required to be about 13,800,000. Many VR 14 players would automatically achieve level 80 and would be at max level.

Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
This new system would facilitate the conversion of current VR Gear and Recipes to Level gear and recipes.

Old Chart

If it’s decided to increase the levels beyond 80 ZOS could use the established gear interval to have gear released for every 2 levels instead of every single level. More on that in the thread Ongoing Level Progression Concept (not yet posted)

Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
Post 50 progression incentives should be a little more separated than pre 50 progression. Skill points (SP), Attribute Points (AP), Champion Points (CP), and Gear Requirements (GR) shouldn’t be awarded for every level. These points can be distributed at a wider interval than 1-49 leveling.

Below is a chart of when players would be awarded the different progression incentives. It should be noted that this progression would not add any additional Skill Points or Attribute points to the current Veteran Rank system, they will just be awarded at different XP intervals.

Old Chart

It's interesting to note that adding 2 VR levels would actually make the conversion to levels 50-80 a more direct conversion.

• Skill Points: Skill points should be awarded every other level. This will result in the same 16 skill points that are awarded during VR leveling.
• Attributes: Attribute points should continue to be awarded every other level.
• Champion Points: Champion points should remain to be a tangential progression and will provide players with a much more specialized character. Players should earn additional CP by leveling. Players should receive 1 CP every other level. This would be in addition to their normal CP gain.
  
  This can be accomplished by granting a player 400K non-enlightened XP to the Champion Progression. If a player has 125K XP toward a Warrior CP, they will be awarded the Warrior CP and will then have 125K toward their next Thief CP. Their CP level would increase accordingly.

Current VR Rank Conversion
Many players who have characters past level 49 maxed would need to adjust their attribute points upon to conversion of VR Ranks to Level conversion. The following would have to occur:

Characters above level 49 would:

• Have their VR Rank converted to levels dependent on the total number of XP they have earned.
  
• Gain additional CP levels in accordance with their new level.

These changes would bring a player who previously gained VR 16 in line with a player who climbs to level 80. A player who has 8 VR 16 characters would automatically gain an additional 128 Champion levels. Some may view this as being too much but a player who takes 8 characters to level 80 would receive a total of around 380 Champion Points (assuming a player gets about 2 CP per 850 thousand XP).

Overview
Using this concept, players who are leveling past level 49 will experience a more rewarding leveling experience and not feel the daunting pressure that is currently felt with the Veteran Ranks. This will help make progression more interesting and more rewarding. This post-level 50 progression should be accompanied by additional skills and DLC for players to consume, but that is for another post.


Thoughts?

Pretty much, the idea is to replace Vet Ranks with regular levels. Convert the 16 vet ranks to 30 regular levels.

Once that is complete, ZOS could regularly raise the level cap. I suggest that post 80 ZOS unlock sub-attributes to mitigate power creep...

Gidorick wrote: »

I had this concept a while ago and have been trying to understand why it would be a negative addition to the game because I know the suggestion will be unpopular. I have tried to address the issues that people generally have with raised level caps.

TL/DR
The core concept is that level cap be raised by 1 regularly and independent of DLC to encourage continued play. This concept is sort of unorthodox and has some justification that needs to be explained, so I ask that readers try to actually consider the concept I am suggesting before jumping to an automatic knee-jerk reaction of “no!” Thanks

Topics:

• Perpetual Progression
• Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
• Mitigation of Power Creep
• Upgrading End Level Gear
• PVP Leveling
• Scaled Content

Perpetual Progression
The core concept here is for ZOS to regularly increase the level cap by 1 level. This level increase would be an actual game mechanic that would provide players additional gameplay by giving them an additional level to gain on a regular basis. For the purpose of this concept I am going to use a 4 week (one month) interval for level increases.

Every month when the level cap increases, those who enjoy leaderboards and racing to level cap could participate in a leaderboard for the first 100 players to reach level cap. This leaderboard could be accompanied by 10 Cap-Ranking Buffs that would award players who reach level cap in the following order:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th-10th
• 11th-20th
• 21st-30th
• 31st-40th
• 41st-50th
• 51st-75th
• 75th-100th

The 1st person to reach level cap would receive the best buffs for that month with each subsequent tier being slightly less powerful. These buffs could also diminish over the month so that:

• Week 1: 100% buff effectiveness
• Week 2: 75% buff effectiveness
• Week 3: 50% buff effectiveness
• Week 4: 25% buff effectiveness

In addition to this ranking buff, every player that reaches level cap in the first 5 days could be given an enlightenment buff for the remainder of the month, making it beneficial for all players who wish to get to level cap for that month.

This would allow players to gain Champion points a little bit more quickly if they are the grindy type of player and would be beneficial to the overall community if my Champion System Catch-Up Mechanic concept is implemented.

This level increase would be independent of content releases and could be used in conjunction with content releases to dictate the level of the enemies within that content. Traditional MMO level cap increases accompany content and the level cap is increased dramatically, sometimes as much as 10 levels. With this concept, DLC could be released with a level range that exceeds the current level cap to give the DLC some longevity and even overlap some DLC levels.

If a DLC is released in a month which has a level cap of 85, ZOS could design the DLC so that the level of the enemies ranges from 85-89. This would mean that the DLC would be a viable zone for 5 months. Players could team up with other players to take down the higher level mobs in the zone or they could simply wait for the level cap to rise in the few months following the DLC release to be on the same level as the mobs.

This could create a sort of scheduling challenge for ZOS. If they must hard code each mob with a level as they are creating a zone, they would need to know exactly when the DLC was going to set the mobs to the correct level for the increase. However, ZOS could code the zone so that they simply need to set the starting level for the mobs and each mob group could level off that base number. It really depends on how the data is organized on ZOS’ end. With their commitment to having quarterly content this sort of DLC level scheduling may be easily accomplished.

For those that will say that “Raising the level cap is not content” I simply point out that while it is not additional content, it is additional gameplay.

Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
This concept would be most effective if VR Ranks are converted to regular levels as outlined in my Level 50-80: VR 1-16 Replacement. A New-ish Concept thread. In this concept, players would no longer gain Attribute Points and Skill points every single level. Progression rewards would be delivered more sparingly after level 50. This would make it so a player who is level 100 would only have 25 more attribute points than a player who is level 50. Players who are level 80 (VR 16) will have a total of 65 attribute points to distribute.

SP=Skill Point / AP=Attribute Point / CP=Champion Point / GR=Gear Requirement

In addition to this, I suggest ZOS also introduce design mechanics that would help mitigate some of the issues that arises with continued vertical progression.

Mitigation of Power Creep
To prevent players who are higher levels from becoming unstoppable (IE: level 100 players are twice as powerful as a level 50 players) I suggest that ZOS introduce a Sub-Attribute system at level 81 that would lock the total amount of attribute points that can be distributed between the three main attributes to 65. All attribute points a player earns beyond that can only be placed in a sub-attribute.

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

It’s important to keep in mind that if the level cap is raised as often as once per month and the reward distribution of my Vet Rank to Level conversion concept is in place, players would, over the course of one year, only receive:

• 6 sub-attribute points
• 6 skill points
• 6 additional Champion Points
• 6 new levels of gear

Upgrading End Level Gear
There has been some discussion regarding upgrading gear. I absolutely adore this idea. There would, however, have to be some limitations.

1. Gear can only be upgraded to your current level
2. Upgrading gear requires a fraction (1/4?) the materials of creating new gear
3. Once gear is upgraded it is BOUND to the character

Allowing player to upgrade the gear they are using, and not allowing them to sell that gear will allow players to more quickly move from one gear level to another, but will also keep the need for players to craft and sell high level gear that they craft intact. When upgrading the level of gear the gear’s quality should lower by one level.

This upgrading mechanic could be available only to master crafters and could only be available to gear of level 50 or greater. Perhaps this could even be a skill added to the different crafting abilities.

PVP Leveling
One of the issues with raising the level cap is pressuring PVP players to do something other than PVP. They are in the thick of battle and if the level cap raises and they don’t run to the new content, run through the new content to raise their level, they will soon find themselves fighting a losing battle against those that did take the time to level up. There are a couple of things that can be done about this to allow these players to play as they want to play.

First, the incremental level increases proposed in this concept wouldn’t offer a player enough of an advantage to make them instantly more competitive in PVP. A player who is level 94 fighting against a player who is level 95 may only have a 10 point difference in Weapon Damage when the overall damage is in the thousands.

Second, PVP XP should be more than enough so that a player who primarily plays PVP can level up the one level by the time the next level comes around. In fact, since cap would be raised only one level, most players would be able to continue whatever it is they are doing and, as long as they are playing regularly, and they would be able to reach the next cap.

Scaled Content
Lastly, we come to Scaled Content. This topic is in-line with my concept to scale players down to any zone using the Battle Level toggle.

With Battle Leveling off, players will simply perform at their level they actually are. With Battle Leveling turned on, they will scale to the zone. This is important for this concept of continued progression because it creates a viable gameplay solution to all players, no matter where they wish to play or what level they currently are.

If a player really, truly enjoys killing werewolves in Glenumbra, they are more than welcome to remain Battle Leveled to Glenumbra and kill hundreds of werewolves to earn that month’s level, but it would be more advantageous to travel to higher level zones if they wanted to be competitive with their leveling.

As it pertains to new zones, ZOS could allow zones that are not part of the main quest lines (Craglorn being the first, and currently only, zone) to Battle level lower players to the minimum level of that Zone. So, when a Zone is released encompassing levels 85-89 and the current level cap is 87, any player lower than 85 will be leveled to 85 so they are viable in that zone. These players will receive scaled XP so they will be able to level up using these zones.

Players could even use Battle Leveling to group with their higher level friends. Battle leveling should level all players in a group to the group leader. This would allow players to level to whatever level the group leader is, down or up.

In the Caldwelld’s Redux thread I suggest that players earn an independent set of levels as they run through Caldwell’s Silver and Gold. These independent levels are gained in conjunction with their main levels and are used to determine Battle Leveling and XP rewards. Earning XP and leveling in a zone while battle leveled would increase the player’s zone-level as well as their main level.

To illustrate this let’s suppose we have released 6 DLCs with the following level ranges:

• Blackwood:90-94
• Southern Marsh: 95-99
• The Pale: 103-106
• Quin-rawl: 107-110
• Solstheim: 115-119
• Sunforge: 118-122

A player joins ESO and decides to dabble in each zone when they reach level 10. After a few weeks they have achieved a bit in each DLC Zone and now have the following zone-levels:

• Blackwood: Zone-Level 3 (Battle Level 92)
• Southern Marsh: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 96)
• The Pale: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 104)
• Quin-rawl: Zone-Level 4 (Battle Level 110)
• Solstheim: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 116)
• Sunforge: Zone-Level 5 (Battle Level 120)

A player who has battle leveled though a zone, but is still a lower level than their zone-level can continue to play in that zone and earn XP for their regular level at the leveled rate. As soon as their main level is greater than their zone-level the battle leveling works in reverse and they are scaled down to zone-max level +1 and no longer receive leveled XP.

Since the player has achieved 12 zone-levels and have been receiving scaled XP they are now level 22 and have out-leveled their main story zone by 7 levels. If the player wishes, they can remain Battle Leveled and their level will be scaled back down to their main story zone per the mechanics outlined in my Zone Scaling concept thread. Or they can remain at their current level and feel the soft skulls of their enemies give way to the mighty power of their boot.

This would give many players the freedom of choice when playing and would allow players to literally play however they wish to play. ZOS could decide to implement zone levels across the board for all zones, main story and DLC in order to facilitate the freedom of play. The concept would work either way.

Overview & Wrap-up
If you’ve stuck with me this long, I thank you. This concept is much more than simply adding levels for the sake of adding levels. The regular addition of levels would truly become a gameplay mechanic that could inform the progression of ESO while offering regular challenges to players who enjoy those types of game mechanics. With the scaling mechanics in place, players will be able to enjoy content no matter what their level and content will continue to be viable once they have completed the DLC for further playthroughs.

As many of us do, I wish for Tamriel to be open and available to all players and for all players to continually have the opportunity to play how they want to play.

Please let me know if you have any ideas on how this concept can be improved or why this concept wouldn't work. Please be specific in your feedback.

This would allow ALL players to raise their levels, not just the ones that buy the DLC. This would ALSO allow the DLC to be based on levels... if ZOS raised the levels once per month by one level. Every DLC would be 3 levels higher than the previous DLC... but players could battle level to the DLC if they aren't at that level.

I realize my ideas a bit too much but ZOS' idea of just basing all progression on CPs is too little.

Oh well...

Guppet

codybrewer78b14_ESO wrote: »

Is it just me or does this whole thing seem really risky on the part of ZOS? If this goes as wrong as it looks like it will, there will be a lot of pissed off players and it could kill the game. I have subscribed to this game since day 1 and have always had a positive outlook on decisions ZOS made. I'm not one of these guys who gets on the forums and whines daily or predicts the end of ESO. I have to say though this look to be a total cluster f*@#!

Not half as risky as launching on console with VR levels in tact. Now that was a stupid gamble.

Removing VR is one of the best decisions they ever made. It's just sad it has taken 18 months to do anything about it.

They now need to man up and say no going to opposition zones. Then remove all the skill points for quests and sky shards that people have got from opposition factions.

People will moan and cry, but then the flow will make sense.

If you want to experience another factions content, role that faction!

That's why we had to suffer this abomination called VR in the first place.

Asherons_Call

codybrewer78b14_ESO wrote: »

Is it just me or does this whole thing seem really risky on the part of ZOS? If this goes as wrong as it looks like it will, there will be a lot of pissed off players and it could kill the game. I have subscribed to this game since day 1 and have always had a positive outlook on decisions ZOS made. I'm not one of these guys who gets on the forums and whines daily or predicts the end of ESO. I have to say though this look to be a total cluster f*@#!

Wrong?? What could possibly go wrong???

tinythinker

Asherons_Call wrote: »

codybrewer78b14_ESO wrote: »

Is it just me or does this whole thing seem really risky on the part of ZOS? If this goes as wrong as it looks like it will, there will be a lot of pissed off players and it could kill the game. I have subscribed to this game since day 1 and have always had a positive outlook on decisions ZOS made. I'm not one of these guys who gets on the forums and whines daily or predicts the end of ESO. I have to say though this look to be a total cluster f*@#!

Wrong?? What could possibly go wrong???

Gremlin race option in cash shop for Q4 2016 confirmed!

tinythinker

Gidorick wrote: »

I personally feel like they are making a mistake... I suggested a while back that ZOS convert Vet Ranks to levels... and leave CPs as a "horizontal progression" thing...

I explain why this would be better here:

Gidorick wrote: »

I have another thread that outlines HOW Vet Ranks can be changed to levels with numbers and charts and graphs HERE... that's not what this thread is. This thread is to offer an alternative to the handful of "Remove/Don't Remove Veteran Ranks" threads that have popped up recently.

While it is true that ZOS has said they would remove Veteran Ranks (and they kind of HAVE to at this point, if for no other reason than to save face) they don't have to castrate everyone's character that has earned Vet Ranks at level 50. ZOS could simply remove the Veteran Ranks and raise the level cap to 80, which is just about the XP equivalent of VR 16. You are probably wondering why ZOS would want to do this. Well... lets give 4 reasons!

• Preserve gear and provisions!
  I really can't imagine what ZOS is going to do about gear requirements and provisioning requirements without post-50 levels. They could have them dependent on champion points where 30 or so champion points is the equivalent to one level. This just seems like a bad idea since champion points can be earned by characters who are below level 50. Would a level 45 character who has 500 CPs suddenly be able to use VR 16 equivalent equipment as soon as they reach level 50? That seems to be a really good way to completely destroy post 50 progression. But maybe that's what they are looking to do.
• Seamless progression!
  The idea of Veteran Ranks for an Elder Scrolls game always seemed odd to me. Having straight levels past 50 to progress through would make the game seem much more seemless than the segmentation we see now.
• Faster post 50 leveling milestones!
  People like to progress. Seeing that bar fill and that number go up is satisfying. By converting Vet Ranks to levels players will level through post 50 progression much faster than they do now... or so it would seem.
• Battle Leveling friendly!
  With Battle Leveling being used in DLC many of us hope the mechanic will some-day allow us to scale downward to older zones so all zones can always be viable for play. Battle leveling from level 23 to level 80 makes much more sense, and is easier to comprehend, than battle leveling from level 23 to Veteran 16.

Now, I completely understand that a few of these points becomes moot if ZOS just cuts leveling off at 50. End game progression wouldn't exist and battle leveling would be to level 50... both of those things seem like they would hinder the future of the game and would dissuade player from continued play. People like to progress! Converting Veteran Ranks to Levels would preserve that long-progression, but would just make it much more accessible than it is now.

Anyway... Those are my thoughts. What are yours?

I outline my core concept here:

Gidorick wrote: »

This is a similar, but different concept for Veteran Rank replacement. While I am still suggesting VR be replaced with straight levels there are enough differences for me to just make a new thread. This thread does not suggest that we continue progression past level cap… I’ve separated that into another thread.

TL/DR
ZOS should convert Veteran Ranks to 30 levels, distributing the skill points of the 16 Vet Ranks accordingly.

Topics:

• Immediately raise the level cap to 80
• Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
• Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
• Current VR Rank Conversion

Immediately raise the level cap to 80
Soon, each VR Rank takes 850K XP to achieve. This is a daunting a task for many players, especially considering that the average XP requirement per level 41-50 is about 111,000 XP. Taking the average multiplier between levels 10-50 we can see a progression that is much more gradual and in line with the average increase in the XP required for each level prior to level 50.

In this post 50 Level system proposition, the first level in which players are required to achieve more than 1 million XP would be level 80, the suggested CAP. Level 80 would require 1,020,034 XP to reach.

The TOTAL number of XP required to level from VR1 to VR16 is 12,750,000. This proposed change would increase the total number of XP required to be about 13,800,000. Many VR 14 players would automatically achieve level 80 and would be at max level.

Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
This new system would facilitate the conversion of current VR Gear and Recipes to Level gear and recipes.

Old Chart

If it’s decided to increase the levels beyond 80 ZOS could use the established gear interval to have gear released for every 2 levels instead of every single level. More on that in the thread Ongoing Level Progression Concept (not yet posted)

Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
Post 50 progression incentives should be a little more separated than pre 50 progression. Skill points (SP), Attribute Points (AP), Champion Points (CP), and Gear Requirements (GR) shouldn’t be awarded for every level. These points can be distributed at a wider interval than 1-49 leveling.

Below is a chart of when players would be awarded the different progression incentives. It should be noted that this progression would not add any additional Skill Points or Attribute points to the current Veteran Rank system, they will just be awarded at different XP intervals.

Old Chart

It's interesting to note that adding 2 VR levels would actually make the conversion to levels 50-80 a more direct conversion.

• Skill Points: Skill points should be awarded every other level. This will result in the same 16 skill points that are awarded during VR leveling.
• Attributes: Attribute points should continue to be awarded every other level.
• Champion Points: Champion points should remain to be a tangential progression and will provide players with a much more specialized character. Players should earn additional CP by leveling. Players should receive 1 CP every other level. This would be in addition to their normal CP gain.
  
  This can be accomplished by granting a player 400K non-enlightened XP to the Champion Progression. If a player has 125K XP toward a Warrior CP, they will be awarded the Warrior CP and will then have 125K toward their next Thief CP. Their CP level would increase accordingly.

Current VR Rank Conversion
Many players who have characters past level 49 maxed would need to adjust their attribute points upon to conversion of VR Ranks to Level conversion. The following would have to occur:

Characters above level 49 would:

• Have their VR Rank converted to levels dependent on the total number of XP they have earned.
  
• Gain additional CP levels in accordance with their new level.

These changes would bring a player who previously gained VR 16 in line with a player who climbs to level 80. A player who has 8 VR 16 characters would automatically gain an additional 128 Champion levels. Some may view this as being too much but a player who takes 8 characters to level 80 would receive a total of around 380 Champion Points (assuming a player gets about 2 CP per 850 thousand XP).

Overview
Using this concept, players who are leveling past level 49 will experience a more rewarding leveling experience and not feel the daunting pressure that is currently felt with the Veteran Ranks. This will help make progression more interesting and more rewarding. This post-level 50 progression should be accompanied by additional skills and DLC for players to consume, but that is for another post.


Thoughts?

Pretty much, the idea is to replace Vet Ranks with regular levels. Convert the 16 vet ranks to 30 regular levels.

Once that is complete, ZOS could regularly raise the level cap. I suggest that post 80 ZOS unlock sub-attributes to mitigate power creep...

Gidorick wrote: »

I had this concept a while ago and have been trying to understand why it would be a negative addition to the game because I know the suggestion will be unpopular. I have tried to address the issues that people generally have with raised level caps.

TL/DR
The core concept is that level cap be raised by 1 regularly and independent of DLC to encourage continued play. This concept is sort of unorthodox and has some justification that needs to be explained, so I ask that readers try to actually consider the concept I am suggesting before jumping to an automatic knee-jerk reaction of “no!” Thanks

Topics:

• Perpetual Progression
• Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
• Mitigation of Power Creep
• Upgrading End Level Gear
• PVP Leveling
• Scaled Content

Perpetual Progression
The core concept here is for ZOS to regularly increase the level cap by 1 level. This level increase would be an actual game mechanic that would provide players additional gameplay by giving them an additional level to gain on a regular basis. For the purpose of this concept I am going to use a 4 week (one month) interval for level increases.

Every month when the level cap increases, those who enjoy leaderboards and racing to level cap could participate in a leaderboard for the first 100 players to reach level cap. This leaderboard could be accompanied by 10 Cap-Ranking Buffs that would award players who reach level cap in the following order:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th-10th
• 11th-20th
• 21st-30th
• 31st-40th
• 41st-50th
• 51st-75th
• 75th-100th

The 1st person to reach level cap would receive the best buffs for that month with each subsequent tier being slightly less powerful. These buffs could also diminish over the month so that:

• Week 1: 100% buff effectiveness
• Week 2: 75% buff effectiveness
• Week 3: 50% buff effectiveness
• Week 4: 25% buff effectiveness

In addition to this ranking buff, every player that reaches level cap in the first 5 days could be given an enlightenment buff for the remainder of the month, making it beneficial for all players who wish to get to level cap for that month.

This would allow players to gain Champion points a little bit more quickly if they are the grindy type of player and would be beneficial to the overall community if my Champion System Catch-Up Mechanic concept is implemented.

This level increase would be independent of content releases and could be used in conjunction with content releases to dictate the level of the enemies within that content. Traditional MMO level cap increases accompany content and the level cap is increased dramatically, sometimes as much as 10 levels. With this concept, DLC could be released with a level range that exceeds the current level cap to give the DLC some longevity and even overlap some DLC levels.

If a DLC is released in a month which has a level cap of 85, ZOS could design the DLC so that the level of the enemies ranges from 85-89. This would mean that the DLC would be a viable zone for 5 months. Players could team up with other players to take down the higher level mobs in the zone or they could simply wait for the level cap to rise in the few months following the DLC release to be on the same level as the mobs.

This could create a sort of scheduling challenge for ZOS. If they must hard code each mob with a level as they are creating a zone, they would need to know exactly when the DLC was going to set the mobs to the correct level for the increase. However, ZOS could code the zone so that they simply need to set the starting level for the mobs and each mob group could level off that base number. It really depends on how the data is organized on ZOS’ end. With their commitment to having quarterly content this sort of DLC level scheduling may be easily accomplished.

For those that will say that “Raising the level cap is not content” I simply point out that while it is not additional content, it is additional gameplay.

Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
This concept would be most effective if VR Ranks are converted to regular levels as outlined in my Level 50-80: VR 1-16 Replacement. A New-ish Concept thread. In this concept, players would no longer gain Attribute Points and Skill points every single level. Progression rewards would be delivered more sparingly after level 50. This would make it so a player who is level 100 would only have 25 more attribute points than a player who is level 50. Players who are level 80 (VR 16) will have a total of 65 attribute points to distribute.

SP=Skill Point / AP=Attribute Point / CP=Champion Point / GR=Gear Requirement

In addition to this, I suggest ZOS also introduce design mechanics that would help mitigate some of the issues that arises with continued vertical progression.

Mitigation of Power Creep
To prevent players who are higher levels from becoming unstoppable (IE: level 100 players are twice as powerful as a level 50 players) I suggest that ZOS introduce a Sub-Attribute system at level 81 that would lock the total amount of attribute points that can be distributed between the three main attributes to 65. All attribute points a player earns beyond that can only be placed in a sub-attribute.

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

It’s important to keep in mind that if the level cap is raised as often as once per month and the reward distribution of my Vet Rank to Level conversion concept is in place, players would, over the course of one year, only receive:

• 6 sub-attribute points
• 6 skill points
• 6 additional Champion Points
• 6 new levels of gear

Upgrading End Level Gear
There has been some discussion regarding upgrading gear. I absolutely adore this idea. There would, however, have to be some limitations.

1. Gear can only be upgraded to your current level
2. Upgrading gear requires a fraction (1/4?) the materials of creating new gear
3. Once gear is upgraded it is BOUND to the character

Allowing player to upgrade the gear they are using, and not allowing them to sell that gear will allow players to more quickly move from one gear level to another, but will also keep the need for players to craft and sell high level gear that they craft intact. When upgrading the level of gear the gear’s quality should lower by one level.

This upgrading mechanic could be available only to master crafters and could only be available to gear of level 50 or greater. Perhaps this could even be a skill added to the different crafting abilities.

PVP Leveling
One of the issues with raising the level cap is pressuring PVP players to do something other than PVP. They are in the thick of battle and if the level cap raises and they don’t run to the new content, run through the new content to raise their level, they will soon find themselves fighting a losing battle against those that did take the time to level up. There are a couple of things that can be done about this to allow these players to play as they want to play.

First, the incremental level increases proposed in this concept wouldn’t offer a player enough of an advantage to make them instantly more competitive in PVP. A player who is level 94 fighting against a player who is level 95 may only have a 10 point difference in Weapon Damage when the overall damage is in the thousands.

Second, PVP XP should be more than enough so that a player who primarily plays PVP can level up the one level by the time the next level comes around. In fact, since cap would be raised only one level, most players would be able to continue whatever it is they are doing and, as long as they are playing regularly, and they would be able to reach the next cap.

Scaled Content
Lastly, we come to Scaled Content. This topic is in-line with my concept to scale players down to any zone using the Battle Level toggle.

With Battle Leveling off, players will simply perform at their level they actually are. With Battle Leveling turned on, they will scale to the zone. This is important for this concept of continued progression because it creates a viable gameplay solution to all players, no matter where they wish to play or what level they currently are.

If a player really, truly enjoys killing werewolves in Glenumbra, they are more than welcome to remain Battle Leveled to Glenumbra and kill hundreds of werewolves to earn that month’s level, but it would be more advantageous to travel to higher level zones if they wanted to be competitive with their leveling.

As it pertains to new zones, ZOS could allow zones that are not part of the main quest lines (Craglorn being the first, and currently only, zone) to Battle level lower players to the minimum level of that Zone. So, when a Zone is released encompassing levels 85-89 and the current level cap is 87, any player lower than 85 will be leveled to 85 so they are viable in that zone. These players will receive scaled XP so they will be able to level up using these zones.

Players could even use Battle Leveling to group with their higher level friends. Battle leveling should level all players in a group to the group leader. This would allow players to level to whatever level the group leader is, down or up.

In the Caldwelld’s Redux thread I suggest that players earn an independent set of levels as they run through Caldwell’s Silver and Gold. These independent levels are gained in conjunction with their main levels and are used to determine Battle Leveling and XP rewards. Earning XP and leveling in a zone while battle leveled would increase the player’s zone-level as well as their main level.

To illustrate this let’s suppose we have released 6 DLCs with the following level ranges:

• Blackwood:90-94
• Southern Marsh: 95-99
• The Pale: 103-106
• Quin-rawl: 107-110
• Solstheim: 115-119
• Sunforge: 118-122

A player joins ESO and decides to dabble in each zone when they reach level 10. After a few weeks they have achieved a bit in each DLC Zone and now have the following zone-levels:

• Blackwood: Zone-Level 3 (Battle Level 92)
• Southern Marsh: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 96)
• The Pale: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 104)
• Quin-rawl: Zone-Level 4 (Battle Level 110)
• Solstheim: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 116)
• Sunforge: Zone-Level 5 (Battle Level 120)

A player who has battle leveled though a zone, but is still a lower level than their zone-level can continue to play in that zone and earn XP for their regular level at the leveled rate. As soon as their main level is greater than their zone-level the battle leveling works in reverse and they are scaled down to zone-max level +1 and no longer receive leveled XP.

Since the player has achieved 12 zone-levels and have been receiving scaled XP they are now level 22 and have out-leveled their main story zone by 7 levels. If the player wishes, they can remain Battle Leveled and their level will be scaled back down to their main story zone per the mechanics outlined in my Zone Scaling concept thread. Or they can remain at their current level and feel the soft skulls of their enemies give way to the mighty power of their boot.

This would give many players the freedom of choice when playing and would allow players to literally play however they wish to play. ZOS could decide to implement zone levels across the board for all zones, main story and DLC in order to facilitate the freedom of play. The concept would work either way.

Overview & Wrap-up
If you’ve stuck with me this long, I thank you. This concept is much more than simply adding levels for the sake of adding levels. The regular addition of levels would truly become a gameplay mechanic that could inform the progression of ESO while offering regular challenges to players who enjoy those types of game mechanics. With the scaling mechanics in place, players will be able to enjoy content no matter what their level and content will continue to be viable once they have completed the DLC for further playthroughs.

As many of us do, I wish for Tamriel to be open and available to all players and for all players to continually have the opportunity to play how they want to play.

Please let me know if you have any ideas on how this concept can be improved or why this concept wouldn't work. Please be specific in your feedback.

This would allow ALL players to raise their levels, not just the ones that buy the DLC. This would ALSO allow the DLC to be based on levels... if ZOS raised the levels once per month by one level. Every DLC would be 3 levels higher than the previous DLC... but players could battle level to the DLC if they aren't at that level.

I realize my ideas a bit too much but ZOS' idea of just basing all progression on CPs is too little.

Oh well...

Nice, I also like the idea someone had where you can only invest in so many constellations at one time, but I don't see that happening either.

Gidorick

tinythinker wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I personally feel like they are making a mistake... I suggested a while back that ZOS convert Vet Ranks to levels... and leave CPs as a "horizontal progression" thing...

I explain why this would be better here:

Gidorick wrote: »

I have another thread that outlines HOW Vet Ranks can be changed to levels with numbers and charts and graphs HERE... that's not what this thread is. This thread is to offer an alternative to the handful of "Remove/Don't Remove Veteran Ranks" threads that have popped up recently.

While it is true that ZOS has said they would remove Veteran Ranks (and they kind of HAVE to at this point, if for no other reason than to save face) they don't have to castrate everyone's character that has earned Vet Ranks at level 50. ZOS could simply remove the Veteran Ranks and raise the level cap to 80, which is just about the XP equivalent of VR 16. You are probably wondering why ZOS would want to do this. Well... lets give 4 reasons!

• Preserve gear and provisions!
  I really can't imagine what ZOS is going to do about gear requirements and provisioning requirements without post-50 levels. They could have them dependent on champion points where 30 or so champion points is the equivalent to one level. This just seems like a bad idea since champion points can be earned by characters who are below level 50. Would a level 45 character who has 500 CPs suddenly be able to use VR 16 equivalent equipment as soon as they reach level 50? That seems to be a really good way to completely destroy post 50 progression. But maybe that's what they are looking to do.
• Seamless progression!
  The idea of Veteran Ranks for an Elder Scrolls game always seemed odd to me. Having straight levels past 50 to progress through would make the game seem much more seemless than the segmentation we see now.
• Faster post 50 leveling milestones!
  People like to progress. Seeing that bar fill and that number go up is satisfying. By converting Vet Ranks to levels players will level through post 50 progression much faster than they do now... or so it would seem.
• Battle Leveling friendly!
  With Battle Leveling being used in DLC many of us hope the mechanic will some-day allow us to scale downward to older zones so all zones can always be viable for play. Battle leveling from level 23 to level 80 makes much more sense, and is easier to comprehend, than battle leveling from level 23 to Veteran 16.

Now, I completely understand that a few of these points becomes moot if ZOS just cuts leveling off at 50. End game progression wouldn't exist and battle leveling would be to level 50... both of those things seem like they would hinder the future of the game and would dissuade player from continued play. People like to progress! Converting Veteran Ranks to Levels would preserve that long-progression, but would just make it much more accessible than it is now.

Anyway... Those are my thoughts. What are yours?

I outline my core concept here:

Gidorick wrote: »

This is a similar, but different concept for Veteran Rank replacement. While I am still suggesting VR be replaced with straight levels there are enough differences for me to just make a new thread. This thread does not suggest that we continue progression past level cap… I’ve separated that into another thread.

TL/DR
ZOS should convert Veteran Ranks to 30 levels, distributing the skill points of the 16 Vet Ranks accordingly.

Topics:

• Immediately raise the level cap to 80
• Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
• Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
• Current VR Rank Conversion

Immediately raise the level cap to 80
Soon, each VR Rank takes 850K XP to achieve. This is a daunting a task for many players, especially considering that the average XP requirement per level 41-50 is about 111,000 XP. Taking the average multiplier between levels 10-50 we can see a progression that is much more gradual and in line with the average increase in the XP required for each level prior to level 50.

In this post 50 Level system proposition, the first level in which players are required to achieve more than 1 million XP would be level 80, the suggested CAP. Level 80 would require 1,020,034 XP to reach.

The TOTAL number of XP required to level from VR1 to VR16 is 12,750,000. This proposed change would increase the total number of XP required to be about 13,800,000. Many VR 14 players would automatically achieve level 80 and would be at max level.

Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
This new system would facilitate the conversion of current VR Gear and Recipes to Level gear and recipes.

Old Chart

If it’s decided to increase the levels beyond 80 ZOS could use the established gear interval to have gear released for every 2 levels instead of every single level. More on that in the thread Ongoing Level Progression Concept (not yet posted)

Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
Post 50 progression incentives should be a little more separated than pre 50 progression. Skill points (SP), Attribute Points (AP), Champion Points (CP), and Gear Requirements (GR) shouldn’t be awarded for every level. These points can be distributed at a wider interval than 1-49 leveling.

Below is a chart of when players would be awarded the different progression incentives. It should be noted that this progression would not add any additional Skill Points or Attribute points to the current Veteran Rank system, they will just be awarded at different XP intervals.

Old Chart

It's interesting to note that adding 2 VR levels would actually make the conversion to levels 50-80 a more direct conversion.

• Skill Points: Skill points should be awarded every other level. This will result in the same 16 skill points that are awarded during VR leveling.
• Attributes: Attribute points should continue to be awarded every other level.
• Champion Points: Champion points should remain to be a tangential progression and will provide players with a much more specialized character. Players should earn additional CP by leveling. Players should receive 1 CP every other level. This would be in addition to their normal CP gain.
  
  This can be accomplished by granting a player 400K non-enlightened XP to the Champion Progression. If a player has 125K XP toward a Warrior CP, they will be awarded the Warrior CP and will then have 125K toward their next Thief CP. Their CP level would increase accordingly.

Current VR Rank Conversion
Many players who have characters past level 49 maxed would need to adjust their attribute points upon to conversion of VR Ranks to Level conversion. The following would have to occur:

Characters above level 49 would:

• Have their VR Rank converted to levels dependent on the total number of XP they have earned.
  
• Gain additional CP levels in accordance with their new level.

These changes would bring a player who previously gained VR 16 in line with a player who climbs to level 80. A player who has 8 VR 16 characters would automatically gain an additional 128 Champion levels. Some may view this as being too much but a player who takes 8 characters to level 80 would receive a total of around 380 Champion Points (assuming a player gets about 2 CP per 850 thousand XP).

Overview
Using this concept, players who are leveling past level 49 will experience a more rewarding leveling experience and not feel the daunting pressure that is currently felt with the Veteran Ranks. This will help make progression more interesting and more rewarding. This post-level 50 progression should be accompanied by additional skills and DLC for players to consume, but that is for another post.


Thoughts?

Pretty much, the idea is to replace Vet Ranks with regular levels. Convert the 16 vet ranks to 30 regular levels.

Once that is complete, ZOS could regularly raise the level cap. I suggest that post 80 ZOS unlock sub-attributes to mitigate power creep...

Gidorick wrote: »

I had this concept a while ago and have been trying to understand why it would be a negative addition to the game because I know the suggestion will be unpopular. I have tried to address the issues that people generally have with raised level caps.

TL/DR
The core concept is that level cap be raised by 1 regularly and independent of DLC to encourage continued play. This concept is sort of unorthodox and has some justification that needs to be explained, so I ask that readers try to actually consider the concept I am suggesting before jumping to an automatic knee-jerk reaction of “no!” Thanks

Topics:

• Perpetual Progression
• Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
• Mitigation of Power Creep
• Upgrading End Level Gear
• PVP Leveling
• Scaled Content

Perpetual Progression
The core concept here is for ZOS to regularly increase the level cap by 1 level. This level increase would be an actual game mechanic that would provide players additional gameplay by giving them an additional level to gain on a regular basis. For the purpose of this concept I am going to use a 4 week (one month) interval for level increases.

Every month when the level cap increases, those who enjoy leaderboards and racing to level cap could participate in a leaderboard for the first 100 players to reach level cap. This leaderboard could be accompanied by 10 Cap-Ranking Buffs that would award players who reach level cap in the following order:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th-10th
• 11th-20th
• 21st-30th
• 31st-40th
• 41st-50th
• 51st-75th
• 75th-100th

The 1st person to reach level cap would receive the best buffs for that month with each subsequent tier being slightly less powerful. These buffs could also diminish over the month so that:

• Week 1: 100% buff effectiveness
• Week 2: 75% buff effectiveness
• Week 3: 50% buff effectiveness
• Week 4: 25% buff effectiveness

In addition to this ranking buff, every player that reaches level cap in the first 5 days could be given an enlightenment buff for the remainder of the month, making it beneficial for all players who wish to get to level cap for that month.

This would allow players to gain Champion points a little bit more quickly if they are the grindy type of player and would be beneficial to the overall community if my Champion System Catch-Up Mechanic concept is implemented.

This level increase would be independent of content releases and could be used in conjunction with content releases to dictate the level of the enemies within that content. Traditional MMO level cap increases accompany content and the level cap is increased dramatically, sometimes as much as 10 levels. With this concept, DLC could be released with a level range that exceeds the current level cap to give the DLC some longevity and even overlap some DLC levels.

If a DLC is released in a month which has a level cap of 85, ZOS could design the DLC so that the level of the enemies ranges from 85-89. This would mean that the DLC would be a viable zone for 5 months. Players could team up with other players to take down the higher level mobs in the zone or they could simply wait for the level cap to rise in the few months following the DLC release to be on the same level as the mobs.

This could create a sort of scheduling challenge for ZOS. If they must hard code each mob with a level as they are creating a zone, they would need to know exactly when the DLC was going to set the mobs to the correct level for the increase. However, ZOS could code the zone so that they simply need to set the starting level for the mobs and each mob group could level off that base number. It really depends on how the data is organized on ZOS’ end. With their commitment to having quarterly content this sort of DLC level scheduling may be easily accomplished.

For those that will say that “Raising the level cap is not content” I simply point out that while it is not additional content, it is additional gameplay.

Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
This concept would be most effective if VR Ranks are converted to regular levels as outlined in my Level 50-80: VR 1-16 Replacement. A New-ish Concept thread. In this concept, players would no longer gain Attribute Points and Skill points every single level. Progression rewards would be delivered more sparingly after level 50. This would make it so a player who is level 100 would only have 25 more attribute points than a player who is level 50. Players who are level 80 (VR 16) will have a total of 65 attribute points to distribute.

SP=Skill Point / AP=Attribute Point / CP=Champion Point / GR=Gear Requirement

In addition to this, I suggest ZOS also introduce design mechanics that would help mitigate some of the issues that arises with continued vertical progression.

Mitigation of Power Creep
To prevent players who are higher levels from becoming unstoppable (IE: level 100 players are twice as powerful as a level 50 players) I suggest that ZOS introduce a Sub-Attribute system at level 81 that would lock the total amount of attribute points that can be distributed between the three main attributes to 65. All attribute points a player earns beyond that can only be placed in a sub-attribute.

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

It’s important to keep in mind that if the level cap is raised as often as once per month and the reward distribution of my Vet Rank to Level conversion concept is in place, players would, over the course of one year, only receive:

• 6 sub-attribute points
• 6 skill points
• 6 additional Champion Points
• 6 new levels of gear

Upgrading End Level Gear
There has been some discussion regarding upgrading gear. I absolutely adore this idea. There would, however, have to be some limitations.

1. Gear can only be upgraded to your current level
2. Upgrading gear requires a fraction (1/4?) the materials of creating new gear
3. Once gear is upgraded it is BOUND to the character

Allowing player to upgrade the gear they are using, and not allowing them to sell that gear will allow players to more quickly move from one gear level to another, but will also keep the need for players to craft and sell high level gear that they craft intact. When upgrading the level of gear the gear’s quality should lower by one level.

This upgrading mechanic could be available only to master crafters and could only be available to gear of level 50 or greater. Perhaps this could even be a skill added to the different crafting abilities.

PVP Leveling
One of the issues with raising the level cap is pressuring PVP players to do something other than PVP. They are in the thick of battle and if the level cap raises and they don’t run to the new content, run through the new content to raise their level, they will soon find themselves fighting a losing battle against those that did take the time to level up. There are a couple of things that can be done about this to allow these players to play as they want to play.

First, the incremental level increases proposed in this concept wouldn’t offer a player enough of an advantage to make them instantly more competitive in PVP. A player who is level 94 fighting against a player who is level 95 may only have a 10 point difference in Weapon Damage when the overall damage is in the thousands.

Second, PVP XP should be more than enough so that a player who primarily plays PVP can level up the one level by the time the next level comes around. In fact, since cap would be raised only one level, most players would be able to continue whatever it is they are doing and, as long as they are playing regularly, and they would be able to reach the next cap.

Scaled Content
Lastly, we come to Scaled Content. This topic is in-line with my concept to scale players down to any zone using the Battle Level toggle.

With Battle Leveling off, players will simply perform at their level they actually are. With Battle Leveling turned on, they will scale to the zone. This is important for this concept of continued progression because it creates a viable gameplay solution to all players, no matter where they wish to play or what level they currently are.

If a player really, truly enjoys killing werewolves in Glenumbra, they are more than welcome to remain Battle Leveled to Glenumbra and kill hundreds of werewolves to earn that month’s level, but it would be more advantageous to travel to higher level zones if they wanted to be competitive with their leveling.

As it pertains to new zones, ZOS could allow zones that are not part of the main quest lines (Craglorn being the first, and currently only, zone) to Battle level lower players to the minimum level of that Zone. So, when a Zone is released encompassing levels 85-89 and the current level cap is 87, any player lower than 85 will be leveled to 85 so they are viable in that zone. These players will receive scaled XP so they will be able to level up using these zones.

Players could even use Battle Leveling to group with their higher level friends. Battle leveling should level all players in a group to the group leader. This would allow players to level to whatever level the group leader is, down or up.

In the Caldwelld’s Redux thread I suggest that players earn an independent set of levels as they run through Caldwell’s Silver and Gold. These independent levels are gained in conjunction with their main levels and are used to determine Battle Leveling and XP rewards. Earning XP and leveling in a zone while battle leveled would increase the player’s zone-level as well as their main level.

To illustrate this let’s suppose we have released 6 DLCs with the following level ranges:

• Blackwood:90-94
• Southern Marsh: 95-99
• The Pale: 103-106
• Quin-rawl: 107-110
• Solstheim: 115-119
• Sunforge: 118-122

A player joins ESO and decides to dabble in each zone when they reach level 10. After a few weeks they have achieved a bit in each DLC Zone and now have the following zone-levels:

• Blackwood: Zone-Level 3 (Battle Level 92)
• Southern Marsh: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 96)
• The Pale: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 104)
• Quin-rawl: Zone-Level 4 (Battle Level 110)
• Solstheim: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 116)
• Sunforge: Zone-Level 5 (Battle Level 120)

A player who has battle leveled though a zone, but is still a lower level than their zone-level can continue to play in that zone and earn XP for their regular level at the leveled rate. As soon as their main level is greater than their zone-level the battle leveling works in reverse and they are scaled down to zone-max level +1 and no longer receive leveled XP.

Since the player has achieved 12 zone-levels and have been receiving scaled XP they are now level 22 and have out-leveled their main story zone by 7 levels. If the player wishes, they can remain Battle Leveled and their level will be scaled back down to their main story zone per the mechanics outlined in my Zone Scaling concept thread. Or they can remain at their current level and feel the soft skulls of their enemies give way to the mighty power of their boot.

This would give many players the freedom of choice when playing and would allow players to literally play however they wish to play. ZOS could decide to implement zone levels across the board for all zones, main story and DLC in order to facilitate the freedom of play. The concept would work either way.

Overview & Wrap-up
If you’ve stuck with me this long, I thank you. This concept is much more than simply adding levels for the sake of adding levels. The regular addition of levels would truly become a gameplay mechanic that could inform the progression of ESO while offering regular challenges to players who enjoy those types of game mechanics. With the scaling mechanics in place, players will be able to enjoy content no matter what their level and content will continue to be viable once they have completed the DLC for further playthroughs.

As many of us do, I wish for Tamriel to be open and available to all players and for all players to continually have the opportunity to play how they want to play.

Please let me know if you have any ideas on how this concept can be improved or why this concept wouldn't work. Please be specific in your feedback.

This would allow ALL players to raise their levels, not just the ones that buy the DLC. This would ALSO allow the DLC to be based on levels... if ZOS raised the levels once per month by one level. Every DLC would be 3 levels higher than the previous DLC... but players could battle level to the DLC if they aren't at that level.

I realize my ideas a bit too much but ZOS' idea of just basing all progression on CPs is too little.

Oh well...

Nice, I also like the idea someone had where you can only invest in so many constellations at one time, but I don't see that happening either.

I don't think you are referencing my CP Active Passive bar concept @tinythinker,

Gidorick wrote: »

One of the concerns with the Champion System is the eventual homogenization of players. As players apply more points, their skill-sets will begin to converge toward an eventual identical conclusion. Every player who reaches the 3600 CP cap will have the exact same CP benefits. This is a concern because it de-diversifies builds.

Active Passive Astrolabe
Along with whatever champion system cap and catch-up mechanic ZOS devises, I think it would be a good idea to have an Active Passive bar added to the Champion System with a total of nine slots.

This way, each constellation could be taken advantage of and no matter the veteran rank, diverse builds will remain possible. This would also help with the Champion System power creep concerns.

This bar would have one slot per Constellation in the Champion System.


Activating the star would be as simple as dragging and dropping the star into the astrolabe slot when viewing each constellation.


I wouldn't be opposed to there being 3 slots per constellation either...

We could have the large slot have 100% effect and the 2 smaller slots only have 50% of the constellations effect.

Only the CP skills that are slotted in the Astrolabe actively impacts player performance.

CP Burn Mechanic:
Another part of this concept is the consumption of CPs through use. When a star is placed in a slot it has the possibility of burning away. When a player enters combat their slotted stars burn. After a set number of time burning, the CPs within the stars are consumed. This would only happen while the player is in combat so players wouldn't consume their stars while crafting or gathering materials, or RPing. This would prevent players from feeling that need to always be on the grind.

The time left for each CP within a star could be tracked with a burn bar that is displayed in the above concept image. It's important to note that loosing CPs should NEVER make players loose access to stars they have already unlocked.

These two concepts will turn the champion system into a perpetual earning concept and prevent it from being a mechanic that has an end with the need for further maintenance. Players will be encouraged to try different stars and those who only use one set of stars will need to continually earn CPs to keep their stars fully charged.

So, what do you think? Beneficial? Unneeded? Another idea?

Oh, and if this sounds familiar, it's because this concept is highly influenced by an idea by @Rune_relic which can be found HERE.

but I do agree that having a way to limit the overall effectiveness of CPs would be a good idea and it would allow players to create more specialized builds.

NewBlacksmurf

Gidorick wrote: »

I personally feel like they are making a mistake... I suggested a while back that ZOS convert Vet Ranks to levels... and leave CPs as a "horizontal progression" thing...

I explain why this would be better here:

Gidorick wrote: »

I have another thread that outlines HOW Vet Ranks can be changed to levels with numbers and charts and graphs HERE... that's not what this thread is. This thread is to offer an alternative to the handful of "Remove/Don't Remove Veteran Ranks" threads that have popped up recently.

While it is true that ZOS has said they would remove Veteran Ranks (and they kind of HAVE to at this point, if for no other reason than to save face) they don't have to castrate everyone's character that has earned Vet Ranks at level 50. ZOS could simply remove the Veteran Ranks and raise the level cap to 80, which is just about the XP equivalent of VR 16. You are probably wondering why ZOS would want to do this. Well... lets give 4 reasons!

• Preserve gear and provisions!
  I really can't imagine what ZOS is going to do about gear requirements and provisioning requirements without post-50 levels. They could have them dependent on champion points where 30 or so champion points is the equivalent to one level. This just seems like a bad idea since champion points can be earned by characters who are below level 50. Would a level 45 character who has 500 CPs suddenly be able to use VR 16 equivalent equipment as soon as they reach level 50? That seems to be a really good way to completely destroy post 50 progression. But maybe that's what they are looking to do.
• Seamless progression!
  The idea of Veteran Ranks for an Elder Scrolls game always seemed odd to me. Having straight levels past 50 to progress through would make the game seem much more seemless than the segmentation we see now.
• Faster post 50 leveling milestones!
  People like to progress. Seeing that bar fill and that number go up is satisfying. By converting Vet Ranks to levels players will level through post 50 progression much faster than they do now... or so it would seem.
• Battle Leveling friendly!
  With Battle Leveling being used in DLC many of us hope the mechanic will some-day allow us to scale downward to older zones so all zones can always be viable for play. Battle leveling from level 23 to level 80 makes much more sense, and is easier to comprehend, than battle leveling from level 23 to Veteran 16.

Now, I completely understand that a few of these points becomes moot if ZOS just cuts leveling off at 50. End game progression wouldn't exist and battle leveling would be to level 50... both of those things seem like they would hinder the future of the game and would dissuade player from continued play. People like to progress! Converting Veteran Ranks to Levels would preserve that long-progression, but would just make it much more accessible than it is now.

Anyway... Those are my thoughts. What are yours?

I outline my core concept here:

Gidorick wrote: »

This is a similar, but different concept for Veteran Rank replacement. While I am still suggesting VR be replaced with straight levels there are enough differences for me to just make a new thread. This thread does not suggest that we continue progression past level cap… I’ve separated that into another thread.

TL/DR
ZOS should convert Veteran Ranks to 30 levels, distributing the skill points of the 16 Vet Ranks accordingly.

Topics:

• Immediately raise the level cap to 80
• Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
• Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
• Current VR Rank Conversion

Immediately raise the level cap to 80
Soon, each VR Rank takes 850K XP to achieve. This is a daunting a task for many players, especially considering that the average XP requirement per level 41-50 is about 111,000 XP. Taking the average multiplier between levels 10-50 we can see a progression that is much more gradual and in line with the average increase in the XP required for each level prior to level 50.

In this post 50 Level system proposition, the first level in which players are required to achieve more than 1 million XP would be level 80, the suggested CAP. Level 80 would require 1,020,034 XP to reach.

The TOTAL number of XP required to level from VR1 to VR16 is 12,750,000. This proposed change would increase the total number of XP required to be about 13,800,000. Many VR 14 players would automatically achieve level 80 and would be at max level.

Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
This new system would facilitate the conversion of current VR Gear and Recipes to Level gear and recipes.

Old Chart

If it’s decided to increase the levels beyond 80 ZOS could use the established gear interval to have gear released for every 2 levels instead of every single level. More on that in the thread Ongoing Level Progression Concept (not yet posted)

Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
Post 50 progression incentives should be a little more separated than pre 50 progression. Skill points (SP), Attribute Points (AP), Champion Points (CP), and Gear Requirements (GR) shouldn’t be awarded for every level. These points can be distributed at a wider interval than 1-49 leveling.

Below is a chart of when players would be awarded the different progression incentives. It should be noted that this progression would not add any additional Skill Points or Attribute points to the current Veteran Rank system, they will just be awarded at different XP intervals.

Old Chart

It's interesting to note that adding 2 VR levels would actually make the conversion to levels 50-80 a more direct conversion.

• Skill Points: Skill points should be awarded every other level. This will result in the same 16 skill points that are awarded during VR leveling.
• Attributes: Attribute points should continue to be awarded every other level.
• Champion Points: Champion points should remain to be a tangential progression and will provide players with a much more specialized character. Players should earn additional CP by leveling. Players should receive 1 CP every other level. This would be in addition to their normal CP gain.
  
  This can be accomplished by granting a player 400K non-enlightened XP to the Champion Progression. If a player has 125K XP toward a Warrior CP, they will be awarded the Warrior CP and will then have 125K toward their next Thief CP. Their CP level would increase accordingly.

Current VR Rank Conversion
Many players who have characters past level 49 maxed would need to adjust their attribute points upon to conversion of VR Ranks to Level conversion. The following would have to occur:

Characters above level 49 would:

• Have their VR Rank converted to levels dependent on the total number of XP they have earned.
  
• Gain additional CP levels in accordance with their new level.

These changes would bring a player who previously gained VR 16 in line with a player who climbs to level 80. A player who has 8 VR 16 characters would automatically gain an additional 128 Champion levels. Some may view this as being too much but a player who takes 8 characters to level 80 would receive a total of around 380 Champion Points (assuming a player gets about 2 CP per 850 thousand XP).

Overview
Using this concept, players who are leveling past level 49 will experience a more rewarding leveling experience and not feel the daunting pressure that is currently felt with the Veteran Ranks. This will help make progression more interesting and more rewarding. This post-level 50 progression should be accompanied by additional skills and DLC for players to consume, but that is for another post.


Thoughts?

Pretty much, the idea is to replace Vet Ranks with regular levels. Convert the 16 vet ranks to 30 regular levels.

Once that is complete, ZOS could regularly raise the level cap. I suggest that post 80 ZOS unlock sub-attributes to mitigate power creep...

Gidorick wrote: »

I had this concept a while ago and have been trying to understand why it would be a negative addition to the game because I know the suggestion will be unpopular. I have tried to address the issues that people generally have with raised level caps.

TL/DR
The core concept is that level cap be raised by 1 regularly and independent of DLC to encourage continued play. This concept is sort of unorthodox and has some justification that needs to be explained, so I ask that readers try to actually consider the concept I am suggesting before jumping to an automatic knee-jerk reaction of “no!” Thanks

Topics:

• Perpetual Progression
• Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
• Mitigation of Power Creep
• Upgrading End Level Gear
• PVP Leveling
• Scaled Content

Perpetual Progression
The core concept here is for ZOS to regularly increase the level cap by 1 level. This level increase would be an actual game mechanic that would provide players additional gameplay by giving them an additional level to gain on a regular basis. For the purpose of this concept I am going to use a 4 week (one month) interval for level increases.

Every month when the level cap increases, those who enjoy leaderboards and racing to level cap could participate in a leaderboard for the first 100 players to reach level cap. This leaderboard could be accompanied by 10 Cap-Ranking Buffs that would award players who reach level cap in the following order:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th-10th
• 11th-20th
• 21st-30th
• 31st-40th
• 41st-50th
• 51st-75th
• 75th-100th

The 1st person to reach level cap would receive the best buffs for that month with each subsequent tier being slightly less powerful. These buffs could also diminish over the month so that:

• Week 1: 100% buff effectiveness
• Week 2: 75% buff effectiveness
• Week 3: 50% buff effectiveness
• Week 4: 25% buff effectiveness

In addition to this ranking buff, every player that reaches level cap in the first 5 days could be given an enlightenment buff for the remainder of the month, making it beneficial for all players who wish to get to level cap for that month.

This would allow players to gain Champion points a little bit more quickly if they are the grindy type of player and would be beneficial to the overall community if my Champion System Catch-Up Mechanic concept is implemented.

This level increase would be independent of content releases and could be used in conjunction with content releases to dictate the level of the enemies within that content. Traditional MMO level cap increases accompany content and the level cap is increased dramatically, sometimes as much as 10 levels. With this concept, DLC could be released with a level range that exceeds the current level cap to give the DLC some longevity and even overlap some DLC levels.

If a DLC is released in a month which has a level cap of 85, ZOS could design the DLC so that the level of the enemies ranges from 85-89. This would mean that the DLC would be a viable zone for 5 months. Players could team up with other players to take down the higher level mobs in the zone or they could simply wait for the level cap to rise in the few months following the DLC release to be on the same level as the mobs.

This could create a sort of scheduling challenge for ZOS. If they must hard code each mob with a level as they are creating a zone, they would need to know exactly when the DLC was going to set the mobs to the correct level for the increase. However, ZOS could code the zone so that they simply need to set the starting level for the mobs and each mob group could level off that base number. It really depends on how the data is organized on ZOS’ end. With their commitment to having quarterly content this sort of DLC level scheduling may be easily accomplished.

For those that will say that “Raising the level cap is not content” I simply point out that while it is not additional content, it is additional gameplay.

Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
This concept would be most effective if VR Ranks are converted to regular levels as outlined in my Level 50-80: VR 1-16 Replacement. A New-ish Concept thread. In this concept, players would no longer gain Attribute Points and Skill points every single level. Progression rewards would be delivered more sparingly after level 50. This would make it so a player who is level 100 would only have 25 more attribute points than a player who is level 50. Players who are level 80 (VR 16) will have a total of 65 attribute points to distribute.

SP=Skill Point / AP=Attribute Point / CP=Champion Point / GR=Gear Requirement

In addition to this, I suggest ZOS also introduce design mechanics that would help mitigate some of the issues that arises with continued vertical progression.

Mitigation of Power Creep
To prevent players who are higher levels from becoming unstoppable (IE: level 100 players are twice as powerful as a level 50 players) I suggest that ZOS introduce a Sub-Attribute system at level 81 that would lock the total amount of attribute points that can be distributed between the three main attributes to 65. All attribute points a player earns beyond that can only be placed in a sub-attribute.

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

It’s important to keep in mind that if the level cap is raised as often as once per month and the reward distribution of my Vet Rank to Level conversion concept is in place, players would, over the course of one year, only receive:

• 6 sub-attribute points
• 6 skill points
• 6 additional Champion Points
• 6 new levels of gear

Upgrading End Level Gear
There has been some discussion regarding upgrading gear. I absolutely adore this idea. There would, however, have to be some limitations.

1. Gear can only be upgraded to your current level
2. Upgrading gear requires a fraction (1/4?) the materials of creating new gear
3. Once gear is upgraded it is BOUND to the character

Allowing player to upgrade the gear they are using, and not allowing them to sell that gear will allow players to more quickly move from one gear level to another, but will also keep the need for players to craft and sell high level gear that they craft intact. When upgrading the level of gear the gear’s quality should lower by one level.

This upgrading mechanic could be available only to master crafters and could only be available to gear of level 50 or greater. Perhaps this could even be a skill added to the different crafting abilities.

PVP Leveling
One of the issues with raising the level cap is pressuring PVP players to do something other than PVP. They are in the thick of battle and if the level cap raises and they don’t run to the new content, run through the new content to raise their level, they will soon find themselves fighting a losing battle against those that did take the time to level up. There are a couple of things that can be done about this to allow these players to play as they want to play.

First, the incremental level increases proposed in this concept wouldn’t offer a player enough of an advantage to make them instantly more competitive in PVP. A player who is level 94 fighting against a player who is level 95 may only have a 10 point difference in Weapon Damage when the overall damage is in the thousands.

Second, PVP XP should be more than enough so that a player who primarily plays PVP can level up the one level by the time the next level comes around. In fact, since cap would be raised only one level, most players would be able to continue whatever it is they are doing and, as long as they are playing regularly, and they would be able to reach the next cap.

Scaled Content
Lastly, we come to Scaled Content. This topic is in-line with my concept to scale players down to any zone using the Battle Level toggle.

With Battle Leveling off, players will simply perform at their level they actually are. With Battle Leveling turned on, they will scale to the zone. This is important for this concept of continued progression because it creates a viable gameplay solution to all players, no matter where they wish to play or what level they currently are.

If a player really, truly enjoys killing werewolves in Glenumbra, they are more than welcome to remain Battle Leveled to Glenumbra and kill hundreds of werewolves to earn that month’s level, but it would be more advantageous to travel to higher level zones if they wanted to be competitive with their leveling.

As it pertains to new zones, ZOS could allow zones that are not part of the main quest lines (Craglorn being the first, and currently only, zone) to Battle level lower players to the minimum level of that Zone. So, when a Zone is released encompassing levels 85-89 and the current level cap is 87, any player lower than 85 will be leveled to 85 so they are viable in that zone. These players will receive scaled XP so they will be able to level up using these zones.

Players could even use Battle Leveling to group with their higher level friends. Battle leveling should level all players in a group to the group leader. This would allow players to level to whatever level the group leader is, down or up.

In the Caldwelld’s Redux thread I suggest that players earn an independent set of levels as they run through Caldwell’s Silver and Gold. These independent levels are gained in conjunction with their main levels and are used to determine Battle Leveling and XP rewards. Earning XP and leveling in a zone while battle leveled would increase the player’s zone-level as well as their main level.

To illustrate this let’s suppose we have released 6 DLCs with the following level ranges:

• Blackwood:90-94
• Southern Marsh: 95-99
• The Pale: 103-106
• Quin-rawl: 107-110
• Solstheim: 115-119
• Sunforge: 118-122

A player joins ESO and decides to dabble in each zone when they reach level 10. After a few weeks they have achieved a bit in each DLC Zone and now have the following zone-levels:

• Blackwood: Zone-Level 3 (Battle Level 92)
• Southern Marsh: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 96)
• The Pale: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 104)
• Quin-rawl: Zone-Level 4 (Battle Level 110)
• Solstheim: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 116)
• Sunforge: Zone-Level 5 (Battle Level 120)

A player who has battle leveled though a zone, but is still a lower level than their zone-level can continue to play in that zone and earn XP for their regular level at the leveled rate. As soon as their main level is greater than their zone-level the battle leveling works in reverse and they are scaled down to zone-max level +1 and no longer receive leveled XP.

Since the player has achieved 12 zone-levels and have been receiving scaled XP they are now level 22 and have out-leveled their main story zone by 7 levels. If the player wishes, they can remain Battle Leveled and their level will be scaled back down to their main story zone per the mechanics outlined in my Zone Scaling concept thread. Or they can remain at their current level and feel the soft skulls of their enemies give way to the mighty power of their boot.

This would give many players the freedom of choice when playing and would allow players to literally play however they wish to play. ZOS could decide to implement zone levels across the board for all zones, main story and DLC in order to facilitate the freedom of play. The concept would work either way.

Overview & Wrap-up
If you’ve stuck with me this long, I thank you. This concept is much more than simply adding levels for the sake of adding levels. The regular addition of levels would truly become a gameplay mechanic that could inform the progression of ESO while offering regular challenges to players who enjoy those types of game mechanics. With the scaling mechanics in place, players will be able to enjoy content no matter what their level and content will continue to be viable once they have completed the DLC for further playthroughs.

As many of us do, I wish for Tamriel to be open and available to all players and for all players to continually have the opportunity to play how they want to play.

Please let me know if you have any ideas on how this concept can be improved or why this concept wouldn't work. Please be specific in your feedback.

This would allow ALL players to raise their levels, not just the ones that buy the DLC. This would ALSO allow the DLC to be based on levels... if ZOS raised the levels once per month by one level. Every DLC would be 3 levels higher than the previous DLC... but players could battle level to the DLC if they aren't at that level.

I realize my ideas a bit too much but ZOS' idea of just basing all progression on CPs is too little.

Oh well...

You have great and well thought out ideas and suggestions...definitely another one.

Sorry tho, this wouldn't be something I'd like to see.
Anything that is going to do something other than "remove VR levels" is not of interest to me personally.

I would support using the specific skills as progression tho, so instead of I, II, III, IV......the skills specifically would go 1-50 and the effects would calculate as they progress.

How:
Take the exp earned on each specific player and give us X number to start with based on current progression. Then allow us to progress....the idea is on top of the 1-50 skill line as a whole that unlocks each skill, the skill itself should progress which opens up a simple way to determine what can be equip (as to NOT USE CP's at all)

under light, medium and heavy....there would be a 1-50 bar that determine gear level to equip. I'm not sure that I'd penalize any existing VR16 but I would consider any VR16 (level 50 in the armor/weapon they have equipped)

Alts however would still need to effectively gain higher VR levels until removed and a scale could be placed as to which VR level = said weapon and armor skills up to 60

I do agree that moving to CP's is a completely bad idea and some of the suggestions of why its bad in your post, I agree with.

UltimaJoe777

I still think 50 is too low though. Most every other MMORPG has had far higher level caps but they were also harder to hit. They could at least take a cue from the original edition of Skyrim and make it 80...

NewBlacksmurf

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

I still think 50 is too low though. Most every other MMORPG has had far higher level caps but they were also harder to hit. They could at least take a cue from the original edition of Skyrim and make it 80...

look at Gids idea or even mine....I think people want progression but just not with VRs and not gear restrictions based on CPs cause 501 is kinda a big number.....and to think its only going to grow.

With my idea, ZOS can raise the required level within the skill lines without drastically messing with any other parts of the game.

Same skills...at level 50, 60, 70 or even 80 as you suggest. Progression of mats and such arent lost and any change has a clear incremental progression. Now ppl aren't vr1 and then vr16 BUT for anyone who stopped leveling they aren't shafted cause lets say VR14 is level 48, VR15 is 49 and VR16 is 50....so it allows the prior to follow the same progression we already have.

NateAssassin

Kanar wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Can't wait to see people's reaction when they make cp per character, so they have to regrind 501 cp again on every single character.

Has there been word that they will do this? If they keep it the way it is then my alts will get much tougher because of the 1 sp/10 cp, but if they take away my alts cp then it will suck.

It would be too easy if they kept CP account wide, they are going to make it per character so you still have to level up to get end game gear.

rotaugen454

NateAssassin wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Can't wait to see people's reaction when they make cp per character, so they have to regrind 501 cp again on every single character.

Has there been word that they will do this? If they keep it the way it is then my alts will get much tougher because of the 1 sp/10 cp, but if they take away my alts cp then it will suck.

It would be too easy if they kept CP account wide, they are going to make it per character so you still have to level up to get end game gear.

Would you quit spreading this lie?

UltimaJoe777

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

I still think 50 is too low though. Most every other MMORPG has had far higher level caps but they were also harder to hit. They could at least take a cue from the original edition of Skyrim and make it 80...

look at Gids idea or even mine....I think people want progression but just not with VRs and not gear restrictions based on CPs cause 501 is kinda a big number.....and to think its only going to grow.

With my idea, ZOS can raise the required level within the skill lines without drastically messing with any other parts of the game.

Same skills...at level 50, 60, 70 or even 80 as you suggest. Progression of mats and such arent lost and any change has a clear incremental progression. Now ppl aren't vr1 and then vr16 BUT for anyone who stopped leveling they aren't shafted cause lets say VR14 is level 48, VR15 is 49 and VR16 is 50....so it allows the prior to follow the same progression we already have.

I've always been in favor of a higher level cap since the removal of VRs was even discussed because I feel it is too easy to hit the cap in this game and thus makes for less accomplishment. Given the rate of growth for leveling up before hitting Vet Ranks it still wouldn't be hard to hit a higher cap but it would take longer, and considering all of the non-alliance zones and zones that aren't Craglorn scale you anyway I doubt raising the cap to even 150 would inconvenience anyone. It would, however, offer a crapton of Stat and Skill Points, the latter of which would support your idea.