CP - Suggested fix and compromise

Rune_Relic

We are all familiar with the arguments for and against.
1. Many people want parity in PVP.
2. CP is a linear progression system where the grinders leave everyone else for dust.
3. Everyone wants progression but not at the cost of the CP system.

So how do you fix what is a vertical progression system (diminished returns doesn't make the system horizontal) ?
How do you reward time and effort without making gods that ruin the game for everyone else ?
How do you keep the Champion system and keep the PVP crowd and the grinders happy ?

Some have said CP caps...which castrate the grinders
Some have said CP catch up mechanisms....which makes a mockery of the time and effort put in by some..but restores parity for the rest just like level caps.
Some have said remove CP from PVP...which works, but then we end up with bits of system running in PVE only and other bits on PVP only with a management nightmare for ZOS.

My suggestion then....
With the skyshard/skill tree system, we have two loadouts with 5 actives + 1
This is in place to stop people having 20 toolbars with every skill from every tree being available in combat instantly at all times like some MMOs.
No one is stopped from farming/grinding skyshards and skills....but everyone is limited in how many they can use at a time.

Now apply this to the Champion system.
No one is limited on how many CP they grind nor how many Champion skills they can work on and invest into.
BUT... you can only have 1 constellation from Mage, 1 constellation from Warrior and 1 constellation from Thief active at any time.
The passives from all trees are disabled, unless they are selected and placed in one of 3 slots in the Champion system skillbar.

Champion Bar example.
Slot 1 - Mage Slot - Ritual - Mighty (+ unlocks....Opportunist / Perfect Strike / Exploiter / Last Stand)
Slot 2 - Thief Slot - Tower - Warlord (+ unlocks...Ensnare / Inspiration Boost/ Maras Gift / War Mount)
Slot 3 - Warrior Slot - Steed - Medium Armour Focus (+ Unlocks...Invigorating Bash / Phase / Shield Expert / Reinforced)
Now it doesn't matter if someone has maxed out all 12 skills in Warrior or Mage or Thief.... you can only use 1 each of them at any time.

Benefits of this system.
All characters are forced to make sacrifices on their choice of Champion skills encouraging unique builds to suit individual playstyles.
Everyone can grind to their hearts content endlessly developing their character for years without restriction.
PVP is much more balanced as low level players can max out the 3 skill (out of 3) they really want to use most quickly while the Ancient Vets can also only use 3 skills (out of 36).
Player separation power wise is minimised if not eliminated but rock/paper/scissor builds are encouraged and enhanced.
PVE Trial/Boss/Quest and PVP balance is much easier to achieve rather than trying to accommodate all CS skill trees with any number of CP invested into them.

The other problem is the stamina/magicka/health stats 150% overcharge issue which I would suggest reducing by half to a max of 100-125% increase form 0-3600 CP.
V14 have a 55% advantage over V1 players as it is which led to rebalancing Vet PVP with combat bonus.
So either combat balance CP points too or reduce/remove the stats increase associated with Champion System.

Rev Rielle

You have some interesting ideas, but they do seem quite complicated. Just from the top of my head I'd suggest perhaps:

• The diminishing returns - from what I've seen - it only seems slightly curve-linear. I think there are a number of real-life examples they could have taken inspiration from to make the equation more realistic and fair for all.
• Instead of 1 point resulting in smaller and smaller percentage increases, it perhaps could be gradually more and more points are required to increase the star-sign attributes by linear increments.
• Also, getting rid of the bonuses at 10,30...120 points spent under a particular star-sign would help too.
• Removing the magicka/stamina/health default bonus for investing under each major star-sign umbrella (warrior, thief, mage) would be nice, I'm not sure why that was put in in the first place at all.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Rune_Relic wrote: »

We are all familiar with the arguments for and against.
1. Many people want parity in PVP.
2. CP is a linear progression system where the grinders leave everyone else for dust.
3. Everyone wants progression but not at the cost of the CP system..

Please don't say "everyone" when you have no evidence to back that up.

I'd rather have the the progression of CP and see PvP expunged from the game entirely.

Too many games try (and all have failed) to tread the line of balancing PvP without gimping PvE.

In MMORPGs PvE is roughly 90% of the content.

Why should 90% of the content get gimped so that the approx 20% of the player-base who play the remaining 10% of content but are responsible for 90% of the forum whines get their way?

Far too many games have been ruined by PvE getting ruined for the sake of PvP.

I'd love a game company and stand up to the PvP minority and tell them to suck it up or move on.

All The Best

Molsondry

Rev Rielle wrote: »

You have some interesting ideas, but they do seem quite complicated. Just from the top of my head I'd suggest perhaps:

• The diminishing returns - from what I've seen - it only seems slightly curve-linear. I think there are a number of real-life examples they could have taken inspiration from to make the equation more realistic and fair for all.
• Instead of 1 point resulting in smaller and smaller percentage increases, it perhaps could be gradually more and more points are required to increase the star-sign attributes by linear increments.
• Also, getting rid of the bonuses at 10,30...120 points spent under a particular star-sign would help too.
• Removing the magicka/stamina/health default bonus for investing under each major star-sign umbrella (warrior, thief, mage) would be nice, I'm not sure why that was put in in the first place at all.

those would all be a step in the good way

I dont really understand his concept either.

What I understand from it i that he wants to remove all the bonus stats from CP and only keep the 30-70-120 bonus , turn them into where you invest your points . Therefor capping champion point at 36 points max. Out of that 36 passive you can only choose 3 to be active at the same time at any giving time?

Or you want to keep like it is but only choose 1 constellation for each tree available and keep the 3600 cap ?.

Second option wouldnt change much in my taught it would only give more focused build. Old players/grinders would still be alot stronger with high amount of cp compared to new players.

Rune_Relic

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

We are all familiar with the arguments for and against.
1. Many people want parity in PVP.
2. CP is a linear progression system where the grinders leave everyone else for dust.
3. Everyone wants progression but not at the cost of the CP system..

Please don't say "everyone" when you have no evidence to back that up.

I'd rather have the the progression of CP and see PvP expunged from the game entirely.

Too many games try (and all have failed) to tread the line of balancing PvP without gimping PvE.

In MMORPGs PvE is roughly 90% of the content.

Why should 90% of the content get gimped so that the approx 20% of the player-base who play the remaining 10% of content but are responsible for 90% of the forum whines get their way?

Far too many games have been ruined by PvE getting ruined for the sake of PvP.

I'd love a game company and stand up to the PvP minority and tell them to suck it up or move on.

All The Best

Question for PVE trials:

10 guys are V14 with 0 CP and 0 skill bonues.
10 guys are V14 with 3600 CP and all Champion passive and skills.

Who heads the leader boards ?
Do you really think a fair game only applies to PVP ?
Do you think Class balance is irrelevant to PVE leader boards ?

Molsondry

Where does this guy comes from a big part of the Eso advertising was about EPIC PVP 100V100 BATTLE ON MEGASERVER CAPTURING AND DEFENDING KEEP.

Alot of us are here only for pvp (like me)

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Question for PVE trials:

10 guys are V14 with 0 CP and 0 skill bonues.
10 guys are V14 with 3600 CP and all Champion passive and skills.

Who heads the leader boards ?
Do you really think a fair game only applies to PVP ?
Do you think Class balance is irrelevant to PVE leader boards ?

Question: Do I care who heads the leaderboards?

I'll give you a hint: No, I don't.

I don't play the game to compete against other players; I play to have fun with other players: you should try it some time - it totally changes your perspective, and massively increases your enjoyment.

All The Best

Rune_Relic

Rev Rielle wrote: »

You have some interesting ideas, but they do seem quite complicated. Just from the top of my head I'd suggest perhaps:

• The diminishing returns - from what I've seen - it only seems slightly curve-linear. I think there are a number of real-life examples they could have taken inspiration from to make the equation more realistic and fair for all.
• Instead of 1 point resulting in smaller and smaller percentage increases, it perhaps could be gradually more and more points are required to increase the star-sign attributes by linear increments.
• Also, getting rid of the bonuses at 10,30...120 points spent under a particular star-sign would help too.
• Removing the magicka/stamina/health default bonus for investing under each major star-sign umbrella (warrior, thief, mage) would be nice, I'm not sure why that was put in in the first place at all.

No more complex then a skillbar with skill slots is ?

Diminishing returns - Agree
Diminishing points - Agree (much of a muchness though in the end)
Unlock passives - Don't know. On the fence with them. So I included them as available when 1 of their Champion skill is slotted.
Magicka/Stamina/Health - Agreed. I see absolutely no reason for the inclusion other than a 1:1 replacement for V1 - V14 growth. These resource increases are the most unnecessary part of the Champion system. Its a pure Grind = Power system.

Gidorick

I think perhaps a sort of champion XP gain buff based on the maximum CP that players have would be a pretty simple way to handle the catch-up. Simply boost the rate of CP XP gain for players who are further away from the current server top. So, if there is a player with 600 CP a player with 10 CP should gain CP XP faster than a player with 100 CP, and that player should gain CP XP faster than a player with 300 CP.

Of course... this would make XP Scrolls less appealing.

Rune_Relic

Molsondry wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

You have some interesting ideas, but they do seem quite complicated. Just from the top of my head I'd suggest perhaps:

• The diminishing returns - from what I've seen - it only seems slightly curve-linear. I think there are a number of real-life examples they could have taken inspiration from to make the equation more realistic and fair for all.
• Instead of 1 point resulting in smaller and smaller percentage increases, it perhaps could be gradually more and more points are required to increase the star-sign attributes by linear increments.
• Also, getting rid of the bonuses at 10,30...120 points spent under a particular star-sign would help too.
• Removing the magicka/stamina/health default bonus for investing under each major star-sign umbrella (warrior, thief, mage) would be nice, I'm not sure why that was put in in the first place at all.

those would all be a step in the good way

I dont really understand his concept either.

What I understand from it i that he wants to remove all the bonus stats from CP and only keep the 30-70-120 bonus , turn them into where you invest your points . Therefor capping champion point at 36 points max. Out of that 36 passive you can only choose 3 to be active at the same time at any giving time?

Or you want to keep like it is but only choose 1 constellation for each tree available and keep the 3600 cap ?.

Second option wouldnt change much in my taught it would only give more focused build. Old players/grinders would still be alot stronger with high amount of cp compared to new players.

Option 2.
Old players can only use 3 out of 36 skills (1 from Mage, 1 from Thief, 1 from Warrior).
New player only has to max out 3 skills the old player selected to be on par.
New player doesn't need 3600 points.

Rune_Relic

Gidorick wrote: »

I think perhaps a sort of champion XP gain buff based on the maximum CP that players have would be a pretty simple way to handle the catch-up. Simply boost the rate of CP XP gain for players who are further away from the current server top. So, if there is a player with 600 CP a player with 10 CP should gain CP XP faster than a player with 100 CP, and that player should gain CP XP faster than a player with 300 CP.

Of course... this would make XP Scrolls less appealing.

Pretty much what REV was saying above.
CP point gain slows down with CP + diminishing return power curve refinement.
Hit CP from two directions.

The problem is its front loaded by default so there is a bigger power gap at the lower half of the CP points (to allow a smaller power gap at the end).
A linear curve doesn't have a front loaded power gap....but you cant catch up.
So you are in a catch 22.
You cant fix the pain....just shunt it around from one end to the other.

I have come to realise a vertical system cant be fixed to address power creep and the power gap.
Only a horizontal system based on skill diversity rather than power gain can fix this.
Its a good system I like...but flawed.
My attempt was to fix it and keep it rather than scrap it.

Molsondry

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Question for PVE trials:

10 guys are V14 with 0 CP and 0 skill bonues.
10 guys are V14 with 3600 CP and all Champion passive and skills.

Who heads the leader boards ?
Do you really think a fair game only applies to PVP ?
Do you think Class balance is irrelevant to PVE leader boards ?

Question: Do I care who heads the leaderboards?

I'll give you a hint: No, I don't.

I don't play the game to compete against other players; I play to have fun with other players: you should try it some time - it totally changes your perspective, and massively increases your enjoyment.

All The Best

Do you want to have a chance to get the legendary weapon from your weekly reward. No? you dotn wanna be in leaders board, well alot of us do.