Official Feedback Thread for Templars

bikerangelo

How I imagine a dev would feel if he jumped into this thread.

Mr_Nobody

Templars and buffs/fixes are like dogs and cats. Two things that rarely come along.

BalticBlues

bikerangelo wrote: »

This is more how we feel since 2015 playing the "Templar free falling nerf patches".

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Dev reaction about the detailed Templar feedback since 2015:


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Streamer reaction about Templar nerfs:

Cinbri

Also regarding Solar Barrage:
when you hit enemy with Dark Flare all enemies near got "flash" visual that symbolize "Trauma" -affected by healing debuff.
When you hit enemies with Solar Barrage you proc on them same "flash", but skill not applying any debuff. So either it should get any debuff or remove this flash visual to increase perfomance.

profundidob16_ESO

@Devs: suggestions for fixing Templar "healing ritual" skill:


http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/249404/

Drewzi

They seem to have no problem "fixing" purifying ritual and rune focus but can't be bothered to fix toppling charge which is much more important or even comment on this *** thread. Unbelievable.

Anhedonie

Zenimax, thank you for killing healing ritual. Now even I won't use that useless ability.

Drewzi

Maybe the reason toppling charge still doesn't work is so we don't accidentally leave "our house".

vyndral13preub18_ESO

You guys are so negative about our charge. Try to think more postive.

For example, It isnt that the skill doesnt work a lot of the time, it is just that the skill doesnt work a lot of the time...

.... Ok nevermind.

bowmanz607

Drewzi wrote: »

Maybe the reason toppling charge still doesn't work is so we don't accidentally leave "our house".

i wish we still had the lol button

puffy99

All ESO subscribes should come with the 3 little piggies storybook signed by Wrobel or maybe a virtual brick house..

Dread_Guy

Not sure if this is a bug or working as intended, but solar barrage isn't granting minor sorcery unless you hit someone with it

booksmcread

So, are we going to see any fixes and positive tweaks for templars before this patch gets released to live, or is Wrobel going to give us the proverbial middle finger and tell us to wait 4-5 months?

Zheg

booksmcread wrote: »

So, are we going to see any fixes and positive tweaks for templars before this patch gets released to live, or is Wrobel going to give us the proverbial middle finger and tell us to wait 4-5 months?

*tell us to wait 4-5 months for CU beta to be available and drop wrobel's catastrophe of combat and balance. Fixed it for ya books.

He didn't even blink when he said he was doing magicka now, and stamina and non-class skill line balancing in DB 3 months later. We're stuck as is, patch goes live in 1.5 weeks. At least you and I both have DKs though.

Lettigall

Blech43 wrote: »

This is getting absurd.

ZOS, if you're reading this 65-page (and counting) Templar thread, please respond.

At this point, it doesn't even have to be a substantive response. Just say "Hi" so that we know you're here.

Their response would be more like: "Thanks for feedback, but we gonna completely ignore it since we have different plans for Templar class!"

Bars

new game out in a few days just go wizard heals a little and puts out some good numbers sorted!

Radburn

I changed up my play style the other day and had a more enjoyable time in PVP. For those wondering, I stopped using Toppling charge & Jabs on my main bar replacing them with Dark Flare & Javelin. When Toppling charge did not bug out it would often cause me to over extend and die.

Bar 1 has a ranged play style now which helps keep me out of trouble, and with the added range to javelin will create a nice synergy between Structured entropy > Dark Flare > Javelin > Radiant Destruction.

Bar 2 Has Purifying Ritual, Honor the Dead, mist form & a single offensive flex skill which i use for Jabs. This bar is for healing support, evasive action and generally when someone gets in your face.

The change-up really favours the Templar because you can put out some serious ranged damage and force the player to either run, or if they decide to get in your face have them deal with HtD, Ritual & Jabs. In a sense we're controlling the situation and Wrobel's idea of Templar's defending their house may work. Its too early to say until things go live and we see everything in practice.

Templar is one of the hardest classes to theorycraft and it has taken me 2 years of on & off play and 9 build revisions to get it to a point where I feel confident in PVP.

Anyways, good luck to all my Templar bro's and if anyone has questions about my build please feel free to message me.

Zheg

The problem I've always had with dark flare is the initial hit taking longer to cast because #zoscoding, and it being incredibly difficult to use in lag. Bar swapping is already hard to pull off and unreliable, but trying to do so while you're in the casting animation for flare is just silly. Most channels and casts you can auto break by wep swap or blocking, but I haven't found that to be true with flare. Like other Templar skills, it's clunky and buggy. FFS, I could've dealt with zero buffs to Templar in TG patch if they had only cleaned up our buggy and derpy animations and their fascination with putting so many casts and channels into a single class.

Sorcs point out noob sorcs by hard casted frags, but it's kosher for temps to have flare, Jesus beam, ritual, remembrance, and jabs all on the same class and intended to be casted/channeled.

Sometimes I day dream that the extended silence over the past few weeks is because ZOS has been trying fill the open position for lead combat designer.

Radburn

Zheg wrote: »

The problem I've always had with dark flare is the initial hit taking longer to cast because #zoscoding, and it being incredibly difficult to use in lag.

You can turn the long flight time into an advantage by timing your Javelin to hit right after Dark flare does, its devastating. Javelin gets 40% damage at max range + empower from the Dark Flare.

skarvika

Radburn wrote: »

I changed up my play style the other day and had a more enjoyable time in PVP. For those wondering, I stopped using Toppling charge & Jabs on my main bar replacing them with Dark Flare & Javelin. When Toppling charge did not bug out it would often cause me to over extend and die.

Bar 1 has a ranged play style now which helps keep me out of trouble, and with the added range to javelin will create a nice synergy between Structured entropy > Dark Flare > Javelin > Radiant Destruction.

Bar 2 Has Purifying Ritual, Honor the Dead, mist form & a single offensive flex skill which i use for Jabs. This bar is for healing support, evasive action and generally when someone gets in your face.

The change-up really favours the Templar because you can put out some serious ranged damage and force the player to either run, or if they decide to get in your face have them deal with HtD, Ritual & Jabs. In a sense we're controlling the situation and Wrobel's idea of Templar's defending their house may work. Its too early to say until things go live and we see everything in practice.

Templar is one of the hardest classes to theorycraft and it has taken me 2 years of on & off play and 9 build revisions to get it to a point where I feel confident in PVP.

Anyways, good luck to all my Templar bro's and if anyone has questions about my build please feel free to message me.

Interesting idea. I'll give these a go because my playstyle sounds like it's very similar to yours.

Brrrofski

Zheg wrote: »

The problem I've always had with dark flare is the initial hit taking longer to cast because #zoscoding, and it being incredibly difficult to use in lag. Bar swapping is already hard to pull off and unreliable, but trying to do so while you're in the casting animation for flare is just silly. Most channels and casts you can auto break by wep swap or blocking, but I haven't found that to be true with flare. Like other Templar skills, it's clunky and buggy. FFS, I could've dealt with zero buffs to Templar in TG patch if they had only cleaned up our buggy and derpy animations and their fascination with putting so many casts and channels into a single class.

Sorcs point out noob sorcs by hard casted frags, but it's kosher for temps to have flare, Jesus beam, ritual, remembrance, and jabs all on the same class and intended to be casted/channeled.

Sometimes I day dream that the extended silence over the past few weeks is because ZOS has been trying fill the open position for lead combat designer.

I agree about not cancelling dark flare. When I start adding dps in dungeons, throwing in a dark flare can be costly as I can't bar swap to resto mid channel.

Like you, not found it with other skills.,

Husan

Yeah, dark flare -> javelin -> radiant destruction is a strong combo on live already. Now 12% more damage on dark flare, more range on javelin and undodgeable radiant destruction = GG. Glass cannon magicka templar is gonna hit hard. BUT it's STILL gonna have exactly the same problems we had before. No mobility, weak passives, a lot of useless skills, and those that are usable are usually with cast times. To be honest, dark flare did not need a damage buff. I'd rather see it go away and have buffs elsewhere. I really don't see why the damage of dark flare was increased. Its damage is insane already on live. Same with the nova synergy. That damage straight one shots some people on live, and they are increasing it furter? Madness. Meanwhile, the actual issues we had with the skills are unadressed (mainly the skill being waaaay to expensive, especially considering across the board ultimate cost decreases for other classes, and the skill just not being worth it without someone using the synergy). We get the buffs on all the wrong places. We didn't ask for those buffs, we don't want those buffs, we don't need those buffs. But we got them. Just like we got the purifying ritual fix. That's gonna be the real killer of templar survivability. It's going to be fun watching glass templars shatter (get the pun? ) trying to go full offensive like sorcs do.

Zheg

Radburn wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The problem I've always had with dark flare is the initial hit taking longer to cast because #zoscoding, and it being incredibly difficult to use in lag.

You can turn the long flight time into an advantage by timing your Javelin to hit right after Dark flare does, its devastating. Javelin gets 40% damage at max range + empower from the Dark Flare.

I know, I used to do the same back in the day. Pop a spell power potion in stealth, turn on inner light for empower, dark flare then javelin as flare flies and straight into Jesus beam. It would melt players not blocking and players without a reflect up. The problem with dark flare though comes mid-fight and during lag. If you're able to get it to work reliably in lag while already engaged with an opponent, I'm jelly

I've heard friends say 'well you'll be able to near oneshot with dark flare next patch, Templars aren't all that bad'. My response has always been to ask whether they've used the skill in lag before, and then I follow it with double reflects being gone and purify doing nothing to projectiles any more and how that spells literal suicide via reflect of a single skill for Templar sometimes xD

Wrobel probably likes that Templars have so many channels and casts and a ground target aoe being our unblockable CC because it doesn't 'homogenize' the classes, but he clearly has never tried to use those skills in regular pvp where ping and fps take a dump as the server groans from bad coding.

Khivas_Carrick

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Blech43 wrote: »

Having worked as both a customer service rep and later as a project manager, my sense is that the devs are aware of the conversation going on here, but simply think that their vision for the class is the right one, and that once the fury dies down players will eventually come around and accept it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

It was the same thing with them trying to entice Sorcerers to use Liquid Lightning in PvP: it just isn't very effective. Unfortunately, it has been 2 years for Templars now, and many players are just not buying into their vision. I for example would like to play a Paladin: someone who wears heavy armor, is tanky, and can throw out some buffs and heals to help the group. That is not really possible right now in high end PvP: tanking in general has been nerfed with the changes to blocking, Templars are not particularly tanky or capable of 'protecting a house', and heavy armor is terrible. I don't fit the vision.

Worse still, the Templar class as it stands now doesn't even match the developers unique vision. Templars simply don't have many tools to 'protect the house'. So we're stuck with a class that fails to meet a vision that we don't share and never wanted in the first place.

Combat Cleric, like a Desna Spear build in Pathfinder, that's what I had in mind for my Templar.

Obviously never going to happen.

danno8

Radburn wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The problem I've always had with dark flare is the initial hit taking longer to cast because #zoscoding, and it being incredibly difficult to use in lag.

You can turn the long flight time into an advantage by timing your Javelin to hit right after Dark flare does, its devastating. Javelin gets 40% damage at max range + empower from the Dark Flare.

I'm sure it is.

Problem is every time I have tried to play the long distance game with Templar I have been burned by the fact that we have no good repositioning skills. Once the enemy closes it's heal like crazy, but invariably die.

Of course if we had a true "house" to shield us it would be another story.

Radburn

Husan wrote: »

Yeah, dark flare -> javelin -> radiant destruction is a strong combo on live already. Now 12% more damage on dark flare, more range on javelin and undodgeable radiant destruction = GG. Glass cannon magicka templar is gonna hit hard. BUT it's STILL gonna have exactly the same problems we had before. No mobility, weak passives, a lot of useless skills, and those that are usable are usually with cast times. To be honest, dark flare did not need a damage buff. I'd rather see it go away and have buffs elsewhere. I really don't see why the damage of dark flare was increased. Its damage is insane already on live. Same with the nova synergy. That damage straight one shots some people on live, and they are increasing it furter? Madness. Meanwhile, the actual issues we had with the skills are unadressed (mainly the skill being waaaay to expensive, especially considering across the board ultimate cost decreases for other classes, and the skill just not being worth it without someone using the synergy). We get the buffs on all the wrong places. We didn't ask for those buffs, we don't want those buffs, we don't need those buffs. But we got them. Just like we got the purifying ritual fix. That's gonna be the real killer of templar survivability. It's going to be fun watching glass templars shatter (get the pun? ) trying to go full offensive like sorcs do.

I've had success using Mist Form which tends to buy me time to re-position and throw down some heals right after. Of course you won't survive a dedicated burst from a good NB, or an onslaught from multiple people but I have got out of some really tough situations using mistform, terrain and heals. The best part is if its a melee class and you suddenly start jabbing them. You can go from defense to offense very quickly, something we were lacking and tended to get us killed.

Husan

Radburn wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Yeah, dark flare -> javelin -> radiant destruction is a strong combo on live already. Now 12% more damage on dark flare, more range on javelin and undodgeable radiant destruction = GG. Glass cannon magicka templar is gonna hit hard. BUT it's STILL gonna have exactly the same problems we had before. No mobility, weak passives, a lot of useless skills, and those that are usable are usually with cast times. To be honest, dark flare did not need a damage buff. I'd rather see it go away and have buffs elsewhere. I really don't see why the damage of dark flare was increased. Its damage is insane already on live. Same with the nova synergy. That damage straight one shots some people on live, and they are increasing it furter? Madness. Meanwhile, the actual issues we had with the skills are unadressed (mainly the skill being waaaay to expensive, especially considering across the board ultimate cost decreases for other classes, and the skill just not being worth it without someone using the synergy). We get the buffs on all the wrong places. We didn't ask for those buffs, we don't want those buffs, we don't need those buffs. But we got them. Just like we got the purifying ritual fix. That's gonna be the real killer of templar survivability. It's going to be fun watching glass templars shatter (get the pun? ) trying to go full offensive like sorcs do.

I've had success using Mist Form which tends to buy me time to re-position and throw down some heals right after. Of course you won't survive a dedicated burst from a good NB, or an onslaught from multiple people but I have got out of some really tough situations using mistform, terrain and heals. The best part is if its a melee class and you suddenly start jabbing them. You can go from defense to offense very quickly, something we were lacking and tended to get us killed.

I haven't had much luck with mistform after the change to gap closers rooting you in place. There was just no way to escape anyone spamming a gap closer on you. No magicka regen, and the skill not actually reducing 75% of the damage taken along with tab target makes for a very weak skill. I don't know which one of these things has the biggest influence, but this skill changed from a very good, must-have skill for a vamp templar to a very weak skill people usually only slot to get the vampire passives on the second bar (and use ulti on the other one). I used mist form back in the day on a stamina templar as a magicka dump and I loved it. Now however, I wouldn't recommend it.

Husan

@Wrobel, @ZOS_GinaBruno quick and concise. Before TG launch include the following to templar changes:

1. empowering sweep morph of crescent sweep deals physical damage
2. biting jabs apply snare on first hit instead of last
3. make rune focus a self buff



Easy fixes. Can be done in a day.
The first two would put stamina templar in a much better place, and rune focus change would help all the drama from "our house" to settle down. If the vision Wrobel has for templars is being an immobile class, punishing people if they enter our house, then we can adress rune focus later and make it non-movable again once templar house builders are a viable playstyle. Implement these 3 simple changes and tell us you are gonna give us some more love come dark brotherhood and I guarantee you will make a lot of templars very, very happy.


For dark brotherhood, I suggest the following:

1. replace enduring rays with a different passive. Do not try to tweak this passive. It does not fit in the dawns wrath tree with the skills we have there.
2. replace or tweak light weaver passive
3. tweak or replace master ritualist passive
4. make balanced warrior passive balanced
5. revisit eclipse and it's morphs
6. buff solar barrage morph of solar flare
7. rewrite the code for toppling charge if you are unable to fix it
8. stamina morph for toppling charge
9. adress how sun shield works in pvp to make it usable again. Either: a) scaling off of stamina/magicka, b) ignoring battle spirit 50% shield reduction, c) make health a viable stat (very hard to do)
10. readress radiant aura morph of restoring aura. It should not give the exact same buffs as a tri-stat potion does

I can give more feedback and more ideas on all of these issues if you want. I know it's not gonna happen in TG, but I sure hope it's something we can look forward to in DB.

With that said, with over 2000 posts in this thread a recognition from a developer would be nice. Just do a quick /lurk so we know you are reading this. Thanks!

Radburn

Husan wrote: »

Radburn wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Yeah, dark flare -> javelin -> radiant destruction is a strong combo on live already. Now 12% more damage on dark flare, more range on javelin and undodgeable radiant destruction = GG. Glass cannon magicka templar is gonna hit hard. BUT it's STILL gonna have exactly the same problems we had before. No mobility, weak passives, a lot of useless skills, and those that are usable are usually with cast times. To be honest, dark flare did not need a damage buff. I'd rather see it go away and have buffs elsewhere. I really don't see why the damage of dark flare was increased. Its damage is insane already on live. Same with the nova synergy. That damage straight one shots some people on live, and they are increasing it furter? Madness. Meanwhile, the actual issues we had with the skills are unadressed (mainly the skill being waaaay to expensive, especially considering across the board ultimate cost decreases for other classes, and the skill just not being worth it without someone using the synergy). We get the buffs on all the wrong places. We didn't ask for those buffs, we don't want those buffs, we don't need those buffs. But we got them. Just like we got the purifying ritual fix. That's gonna be the real killer of templar survivability. It's going to be fun watching glass templars shatter (get the pun? ) trying to go full offensive like sorcs do.

I've had success using Mist Form which tends to buy me time to re-position and throw down some heals right after. Of course you won't survive a dedicated burst from a good NB, or an onslaught from multiple people but I have got out of some really tough situations using mistform, terrain and heals. The best part is if its a melee class and you suddenly start jabbing them. You can go from defense to offense very quickly, something we were lacking and tended to get us killed.

I haven't had much luck with mistform after the change to gap closers rooting you in place. There was just no way to escape anyone spamming a gap closer on you. No magicka regen, and the skill not actually reducing 75% of the damage taken along with tab target makes for a very weak skill. I don't know which one of these things has the biggest influence, but this skill changed from a very good, must-have skill for a vamp templar to a very weak skill people usually only slot to get the vampire passives on the second bar (and use ulti on the other one). I used mist form back in the day on a stamina templar as a magicka dump and I loved it. Now however, I wouldn't recommend it.

It is definitely weaker, and I won't lie, about a week ago I nearly dropped Vampire. The change to expedition will make it even less desirable, dropping the speed to 30%. The bottom line is it's all we have in terms of mobility as a magicka build and it can work in some scenarios.

I used to spam it until I got away, now it's more of an ability I use when I transition from bar 1 ranged to bar 2 healing. It tends to give me time to assess whats going on and either come out of mist form, heal and go offensive or continue to evade + heal and hold on long enough that help arrives or I die.

booksmcread

Zheg wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

So, are we going to see any fixes and positive tweaks for templars before this patch gets released to live, or is Wrobel going to give us the proverbial middle finger and tell us to wait 4-5 months?

*tell us to wait 4-5 months for CU beta to be available and drop wrobel's catastrophe of combat and balance. Fixed it for ya books.

He didn't even blink when he said he was doing magicka now, and stamina and non-class skill line balancing in DB 3 months later. We're stuck as is, patch goes live in 1.5 weeks. At least you and I both have DKs though.

This is sad, but probably true. I have purchased my CU package and beta will start before DB comes out. I will give Thieve's Guild a couple of weeks before I cancel my ESO sub on the very off-chance some good changes are put in place before it goes live or immediately thereafter.