lol

zyk

Wrobel wrote: »

Currently gap closers apply a -100% movement speed debuff for .5 seconds. This snare cannot be avoided or reduced by any abilities, so it locks your character in place. It works this way because we want charges to reliably hit enemies. It means if 2 players are casting Ambush on a target every half second, they will not be able to move. This is too strong of a lockdown and we would like to relax it, while still making charge abilities get to the target.

To accomplish this, we'll be reducing the snare to -60% and increase the duration to .75 seconds. This will make it feel more responsive as a person being charged because you can still control your character instead of getting stuck in place. With the change you can move slightly further with 1 person charging you, and much further if multiple enemies are charging you. Note that these values aren’t final and we will be adjusting based on PTS feedback.

Thank you for the response, Mr. @Wrobel. What about the silence experienced players have noted in this thread? That is, the apparent inability to cast any ability? I have only noticed this myself when gap closers are used on me by multiple players. Is this an observational error on the part of players, a bug or an intended effect?

Is it not possible to add a range check to gap closers and only proc the snare if the target may potentially exit range?

While a 60% snare is better than a 100% snare, .75 seconds vs .5 seconds sounds more frustrating from the standpoint of responsive combat. Especially if the snare continues to have no counters and defensive functions like roll dodge are unavailable.

Finally, what about giving the target of a successful gap closer temporary immunity to the type of snare processed by gap closers? It seems to me that the increased snare duration you propose may make the effect of being targeted by multiple gap closers slightly asynchronously worse than it is now.

WebBull

Seems as this is mostly an Ambush issue so why are all charges being changed?

Ezareth

WebBull wrote: »

Seems as this is mostly an Ambush issue so why are all charges being changed?

Because It's not mostly an Ambush issue, Ambush is just the worst offender. I have DKs in triplicate use crit-charge spam on me all day long doing the same thing. Gap closers just screw things up right now when used en masse.

Rylana

WebBull wrote: »

Seems as this is mostly an Ambush issue so why are all charges being changed?

If youve ever been the victim of two guys with crit rush youd understand how this is not just an ambush issue.

Frawr

Wrobel wrote: »

Currently gap closers apply a -100% movement speed debuff for .5 seconds. This snare cannot be avoided or reduced by any abilities, so it locks your character in place. It works this way because we want charges to reliably hit enemies. It means if 2 players are casting Ambush on a target every half second, they will not be able to move. This is too strong of a lockdown and we would like to relax it, while still making charge abilities get to the target.

To accomplish this, we'll be reducing the snare to -60% and increase the duration to .75 seconds. This will make it feel more responsive as a person being charged because you can still control your character instead of getting stuck in place. With the change you can move slightly further with 1 person charging you, and much further if multiple enemies are charging you. Note that these values aren’t final and we will be adjusting based on PTS feedback.

@Wrobel

Thanks for your response. it is good to receive communication about this.

In terms of big picture, why do you want charges to reliably hit enemies?

What is wrong with them being unreliable? What value does this mechanic add to gameplay compared to the frustration afforded to the player on the receiving end? How is this 'easy-mode' good for the game?

Currently, the game plays in a very unnatural manner, for example:

I see a player initiating a gap closer on me. At that point, despite the fact that there is a good second before he hits me; more than enough time to react to the gap closer, I am unable now to block/dodge because the game itself has ordained that I must be hit by this gap closer.

This is simply bad design. It removes the responsiveness of an otherwise nice twitch-based combat system.

I would request that the gap closer be redesigned as follows:

- Check distance at gap closer mechanic
- if distance close enough - trigger gap closer
NO CC AT THIS POINT
- Gap closer should then chase all the way to the player being targetted even if they run out of range during the animation
- Stun/KB/etc should now happen at the point where the 2 players collide. If the first player has dodged/blocked then the damage and CC should be appropriately mitigated.

I really believe that this would make the combat more dynamic and responsive.

AhPook_Is_Here

Zohr wrote: »

I want to at least see video of a dev test because I want to know what happens if you charge a person with reflect up or if you have eclipse on you. Obviously if it's possible the moves would be unable to be reflected. I would just want to see what if

I would imagine something like this.


[/quote]

Proving 1/2MV^2 isn't just for eggheads.

Joy_Division

I don't understand how there was once "always hit" mechanics in the game (channels), yet these always hit mechanics did not requires to stun/immobilize players. They just hit. If a lightning beam could hit a moving player, why can't a charge?

In fact, now that you made these dodgeable, we don't even need to accept a 100% hit consequence of a charge.

I guess I'd like to think it would be feasible to use the coding from a channel and apply it to a gap-closer.

Merlight

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't understand how there was once "always hit" mechanics in the game (channels), yet these always hit mechanics did not requires to stun/immobilize players. They just hit. If a lightning beam could hit a moving player, why can't a charge?

The beam connects to the target character, while the exact location of that character isn't important. The client might be lagging behind and not knowing the target has moved (on the server), but until it receives some kind of "channel finish / interrupt" message, it'll animate the beam towards the target character -- its client-side location, which may be different from its actual location on the server.

The issue they tried to "solve" with immobilize on charge is that the charge takes some time (travel plus latency) and they can't predict where the target will move during that time. And if the charger has relatively high latency, by the time he/she arrives at the target location, the victim has already walked away.

KeplerMG

Looks like you're getting mobbed by fans trying to get you to sign their copy of ESO.

Tankqull

Merlight wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't understand how there was once "always hit" mechanics in the game (channels), yet these always hit mechanics did not requires to stun/immobilize players. They just hit. If a lightning beam could hit a moving player, why can't a charge?

The beam connects to the target character, while the exact location of that character isn't important. The client might be lagging behind and not knowing the target has moved (on the server), but until it receives some kind of "channel finish / interrupt" message, it'll animate the beam towards the target character -- its client-side location, which may be different from its actual location on the server.

The issue they tried to "solve" with immobilize on charge is that the charge takes some time (travel plus latency) and they can't predict where the target will move during that time. And if the charger has relatively high latency, by the time he/she arrives at the target location, the victim has already walked away.

and thats sth i do not understand prior to ic/orsinium they had every skill check for LOS/range/reachability every milisecond literally thausends of timer per activation but on a gapcloser that require constant pathtracking they have... one.

Makkir

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Its so simple, but it is just that - the mechanics need to work. And fixes need to happen sooner than 4 months at a time. You cant retain people in PvP leaving in such broken mechanics in increments 4 months at a time.

Hate to say it, but new games are on the horizon, and a lot of guilds that left/still playing ESO are already poised to make a go at black desert it seems. ESO can only hope its just not good and they come back, but will they come back if mechanics are complete garbage? Who knows.

Game looks and sounds a lot like ArcheAge....and believe me, that game was toxic.

Didgerion

You have no right to slow down or mini-stun the target unless they are specifically being hit by an ability that does that.

It is a bad mechanic. Lets add snares for every ability then just to make sure it hits the target.

Didgerion

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't understand how there was once "always hit" mechanics in the game (channels), yet these always hit mechanics did not requires to stun/immobilize players. They just hit. If a lightning beam could hit a moving player, why can't a charge?

In fact, now that you made these dodgeable, we don't even need to accept a 100% hit consequence of a charge.

I guess I'd like to think it would be feasible to use the coding from a channel and apply it to a gap-closer.

It is more complicated with gap closing because it transfer players instead of projectiles. And the players can end up landing in unauthorized places this way. But ministun and short snare solutions are bad.

BuggeX

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand how there was once "always hit" mechanics in the game (channels), yet these always hit mechanics did not requires to stun/immobilize players. They just hit. If a lightning beam could hit a moving player, why can't a charge?

lightingbeams etc. are dots. the first hit will apply a dot to you witch ticks for x second for y dmg and the Animation will follow the Player.

thats why you can purge any form of a beam, like the Jesus beam

Didgerion

zyk wrote: »

....
While a 60% snare is better than a 100% snare, .75 seconds vs .5 seconds sounds more frustrating from the standpoint of responsive combat. Especially if the snare continues to have no counters and defensive functions like roll dodge are unavailable.
.....

60% snare is unacceptable. And if the target is already snared by other ability (hidden blade lets say) then it will be a 84% snare.
That micro snare will stack with other snares and there will be no snare immunity against it like rapid maneuvers.

Essiaga

zyk wrote: »

Perhaps it can be argued that all gap closers should be subject to the same cost rule as bolt escape and its morphs.

Ambush is the only true offender as far as single target spam but if you can't gap close on a streaking sorc that is creating a legit gap to be legit closed ...

No. I use Toppling charge to a few targets to get out of danger. Its the mobility in the Templar class. Stam sorcs Crit charge for healing, etc. It would effect way more then just this, which again is Ambush/TS which either needs cool down (which I'm not in favor of) or require a distance.

Didgerion

Xsorus wrote: »

I feel like some people are just whining for the sake of whining at this point.

Right now you get stunned for basically a bit where you can't move or do anything when being hit by Gap Closers.

Going to a snare is a 1000x better then this... and yet..you still have people whining..Which pretty much means they don't want there to be anything at all on the Gap Closer..Which was tried..and simply did not work well at all.

So its a Snare basically....which is better then the current option.

This is a separate issue of course compared to Ambush..which flat out needs a Min range attached to it.

You don't understand one thing: the initial solution to the problem was terribly wrong. and now they bring another wrong solution that is not that bad as the first one but is still bad.
The good solution should be seek in a different direction. The targets should not be punished because someone is going to charge at them.

And hey great idea, I know how to fix pvp lag, let'em run pvp servers with 10 fps for a week then fix it to run with 20 fps...what an improvement it will be!!

Ara_Valleria

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

Imagine this snare stacking with stampede's snare
RIP people without Shuffle
How does @Wrobel come up with all these ingenious ideas

WTB pvp dev who actually pvps frequently.

Docmandu

Wrobel wrote: »

Currently gap closers apply a -100% movement speed debuff for .5 seconds. This snare cannot be avoided or reduced by any abilities, so it locks your character in place. It works this way because we want charges to reliably hit enemies. It means if 2 players are casting Ambush on a target every half second, they will not be able to move. This is too strong of a lockdown and we would like to relax it, while still making charge abilities get to the target.

To accomplish this, we'll be reducing the snare to -60% and increase the duration to .75 seconds. This will make it feel more responsive as a person being charged because you can still control your character instead of getting stuck in place. With the change you can move slightly further with 1 person charging you, and much further if multiple enemies are charging you. Note that these values aren’t final and we will be adjusting based on PTS feedback.

Aweful... just aweful.. this doesn't fix the problem at all of trying to get away from a zerg.. probably even makes it worse than it already is.. If somebody gapcloses, fine.. he should close the gap.. not allow his buddies to also close the gap by auto rooting / stunning.

NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

Alucardo

Sypher wrote: »

Currently, "Dragon Leap" doesn't have that half a second root which causes it to miss against targets who are very mobile (If they walk away from it, it will not damage them, even if they were the one targeted by it. Will that be looked at?

This so much.

Lorkhan

maybe off-topic but #NERFSHIELDS

JaJaLuka

Wrobel wrote: »

Currently gap closers apply a -100% movement speed debuff for .5 seconds. This snare cannot be avoided or reduced by any abilities, so it locks your character in place. It works this way because we want charges to reliably hit enemies. It means if 2 players are casting Ambush on a target every half second, they will not be able to move. This is too strong of a lockdown and we would like to relax it, while still making charge abilities get to the target.

To accomplish this, we'll be reducing the snare to -60% and increase the duration to .75 seconds. This will make it feel more responsive as a person being charged because you can still control your character instead of getting stuck in place. With the change you can move slightly further with 1 person charging you, and much further if multiple enemies are charging you. Note that these values aren’t final and we will be adjusting based on PTS feedback.

My thoughts are, why does it absolutely have to hit every time? I can't think of anything else that does that and given that escapes are fairly unreliable at times, it seems that it's fairly biased towards the style of play that promotes only face first assaults.

JaJaLuka

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Zohr wrote: »

I want to at least see video of a dev test because I want to know what happens if you charge a person with reflect up or if you have eclipse on you. Obviously if it's possible the moves would be unable to be reflected. I would just want to see what if

I would imagine something like this.

Proving 1/2MV^2 isn't just for eggheads. [/quote]

Hehe, my friends tried that trick while drunk... It ends roughly the same way each time, though they didn't notice they were hurt until morning

ToRelax

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

Wrobel wrote: »

Currently gap closers apply a -100% movement speed debuff for .5 seconds. This snare cannot be avoided or reduced by any abilities, so it locks your character in place. It works this way because we want charges to reliably hit enemies. It means if 2 players are casting Ambush on a target every half second, they will not be able to move. This is too strong of a lockdown and we would like to relax it, while still making charge abilities get to the target.

To accomplish this, we'll be reducing the snare to -60% and increase the duration to .75 seconds. This will make it feel more responsive as a person being charged because you can still control your character instead of getting stuck in place. With the change you can move slightly further with 1 person charging you, and much further if multiple enemies are charging you. Note that these values aren’t final and we will be adjusting based on PTS feedback.

Was told about this thread... no time to read it all now though.
However.

@Wrobel do you realize the problem? Serious question. You didn't even mention the silence/stun/whatever it actually is, wich arguably is an even larger problem than the root. Additionally, applying a snare is even worse for the receiving player if he would dodge roll the gap closer - wich is currently the best thing you can do if you have stamina left (and thus obv the dodge roll nerf increases the problem indirectly, tyvm).
When a gap closer roots or snares the target, it should do that after the animation is completed - you know, so you actually know what's going on when someone gap closes you. It's nice that you care about the responsiveness of these skills, but that is wasted effort if it comes at the cost of the basic design of skills, plus both the current and proposed solution make the game actually feel less responsive on the receiving end.
I would like if gap closers would take you to the target reliably, but if that is not possible without compromising the gameplay of the receiving player, then I'd much rather have them seemingly stop mid way yet still hit the target (deal damage and apply regular additional effects). If that would cause problems (for example a Sorcerer now being able to streak faster than one can critical charge him) that can be balanced in other ways, like range and cost.

Rune_Relic

The only way to really fix this is to have Gap closers but made into a series of short distance gap closers.
Each short distance having its own position check until target is hit.
This eliminates the positioning error as it auto corrects each time.

1. You can't really say use projectile mechanics, as projectiles aren't intelligent and don't change trajectory.
Gap closers are a smart projectile that does change trajectory like a homing beacon.
The problem then becomes....gap closers become expensive code wise.
That could be an issue with everyone spamming gap closers.

2. Dodging viable ? if a person charges you and corrects their trajectory all the time how can you dodge it ?
Seems the only thing to do is to have a stun on hit UNLESS ....you brace for impact by blocking
Then you have the issue of gap closer spam....permanently holding shield+ stamina remaining.
Use the shield bash reaction when blocked/braced.

3. That means PvE works completely differently to PVP.
PvE..dodge the red line.
PVP ..brace for impact.

_Chaos

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. You can't really say use projectile mechanics, as projectiles aren't intelligent and don't change trajectory.

Unless dodged, they most definitely do change trajectory iirc.

Treat gap closers+take flight as projectiles just for one weekend please, I want to reflect leaping DK's

Rune_Relic

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. You can't really say use projectile mechanics, as projectiles aren't intelligent and don't change trajectory.

Unless dodged, they most definitely do change trajectory iirc.

Treat gap closers+take flight as projectiles just for one weekend please, I want to reflect leaping DK's

Kind of what I mean....how can you dodge a homing projectile ?
Guess that's part of the problem.
Only Ground/vector based projectile should be dodgable IMO

Only if gap closers are classed a magicka and I can use defensive posture.

Then again..might be a way to get players over keep walls.....hhhhmmm.

Cinbri

@Wrobel ETA of pts?

tist

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

You may want to discourage these abilities from being spammed or add a minimum distance. Ambush should be a gap closer, not a dps ability.

Hexys

Thieve's guild patch is to far ahead, this needs to be fixed right now.