Upcoming siege changes in next major update

Ghostbane

Manoekin

Ghostbane wrote: »

Ground oils da real MVPs.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Ishammael

Manoekin wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

Ground oils da real MVPs.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Adapted from Jim Mora's famous rant:

GROUND OILS? Don't talk about ground oils. You kidding me? GROUND OILS? Let's hope we can win a game play without lag.

Manoekin

Ishammael wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

Ground oils da real MVPs.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Adapted from Jim Mora's famous rant:

GROUND OILS? Don't talk about ground oils. You kidding me? GROUND OILS? Let's hope we can win a game play without lag.

Server might lag more from ground oils due to having to calculate my AP gains, true.

Kelleton

siege damage is insignificant, ground oils don't matter

Manoekin

Kelleton wrote: »

siege damage is insignificant, ground oils don't matter

I smell AP.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

Starshadw

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

I would like to make the suggestion to flat-out get rid of Magicka Det, then. Just delete it. The skill is overused and abused. If I never have to see an entire mass of characters surrounded by the stupid red circles designating they have an active proxy det, it will still be too soon.

khemdog

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

So what you're saying is: The skill that was added to the game to combat zergs actually takes 3x the calculations of a normal AoE and is lagging the servers out, especially when a group of 5, 10 or 20 people cast it at the same time?.... not to mention the fact that it only really gets used by massive AoE bomb groups.

uhhhhhh now i know this is might sound crazy but... maybe you should just remove the skill from the game?

Manoekin

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

That sounds reasonable. Does this not work in the reverse way, with damage scaling down via current AOE caps?

khemdog

yes hes saying aoe caps = lag

prox det + aoe caps = slideshow

MisterBigglesworth

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

Are your LOS checks capped at 60? Is that what's going on here?
...and if it is capped at 60, why can't you apply 100% damage to all 60 of them?

MrGrimey

Magicka Det is essential for many magickia builds in order them to hang with stamina builds... Please don't ruin it

Merlight

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation...

I'll take the risk of being the dumbest guy in here and ask: what does that mean? Scaling in what sense? You speak about LOS checks, which would imply you tried enlarging the impact area. Siege doesn't need to hit more people, it needs to hit harder than a wet noodle. Detonation doesn't need to hit more people, either, just pump the damage on existing hits, there are no additional LOS checks to be done.

WRX

Manoekin wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

That sounds reasonable. Does this not work in the reverse way, with damage scaling down via current AOE caps?

Precisely this.

One could infer that +x% or -x% would take roughly the same amount of calculations. Much like the AoE caps cause.

Anyways, its good to see things heading in one direction.

PainfulFAFA

Merlight wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation...

I'll take the risk of being the dumbest guy in here and ask: what does that mean? Scaling in what sense? You speak about LOS checks, which would imply you tried enlarging the impact area. Siege doesn't need to hit more people, it needs to hit harder than a wet noodle. Detonation doesn't need to hit more people, either, just pump the damage on existing hits, there are no additional LOS checks to be done.

Magicka Detonation damage scales up depending on the number of players it (5%>10%>15%.....>25% max)
What he's saying is that they have looked into making siege damage in a similar way (maybe 10%>20%....>35% max)

Sub effects refer to the Magicka/Stamina Drain effects, Snares, Health De-buffs
Right now its 5000 resource drain per hit. They're looked into scaling that like magicka det (1k>2k>3k>....7k etc)

Health Debuff per players hit (35%>45%>55%>....75%)
Snare per players hit (30%>40%>50%...60%)

DeanTheCat

Merlight wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation...

I'll take the risk of being the dumbest guy in here and ask: what does that mean? Scaling in what sense? You speak about LOS checks, which would imply you tried enlarging the impact area. Siege doesn't need to hit more people, it needs to hit harder than a wet noodle. Detonation doesn't need to hit more people, either, just pump the damage on existing hits, there are no additional LOS checks to be done.

@Merlight

If I'm not wrong, Brian means scaling the damage on impact with the number of players hit. So if X number of players were hit, the siege weapon does Y damage. But if let's say 2X players were hit, the siege will do 2Y damage.

But this means that after the initial Line of Sight check on impact of the siege weapon projectile, another check will be needed to determine the number of players hit, and a calculation would be needed to multiply the effects by the % based on the formulae and finally another calculation to drain the stamina/magicka of the targets affected, which would have to be scaled up as well; most likely with a different formulae from the damage one.

So in conclusion, instead of the current 1 LoS check

if (hit == true)
{
Target_hp = Target_hp - Siege_damage;
}

You'll have something like this:

if (hit == true)
{
if (targets_in_area <=6)
{
Multiplier = 1;
}
else if (targets_in_area <=12)
{
Multiplier = 2;
}
else
{
Multiplier = 3;
}
Target_hp = Target_hp - (Siege_damage * Multiplier)
Target_resource_stamina = Target_resource_stamina - ((Multiplier /2)* 5000)
}

Am I correct @ZOS_BrianWheeler?

Ishammael

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

All I read from this is that AoE caps are causing double and in some case triple the LOS checks. I suggest removal.

bowmanz607

Ishammael wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

All I read from this is that AoE caps are causing double and in some case triple the LOS checks. I suggest removal.

no he seems to be saying that they were looking to making siege operate like detonation. Meaning, for each enemy hit the damage done will scale up making siege more effective toward group players. However, the issue is that it will increase the amount of lag because the server has to read to many effects at once.

Merlight

@PainfulFAFA thanks for clearing that it was about applying detonation-like scaling to siege, my fault was I read that as "scaling (siege and detonation)".

The remaining question is: what does damage scaling have to do with LOS checks?

@DeanTheCat I just can't image how a damage multiplier based on the number of hits would require more hit tests. Your pseudo-code looks like it could be easily optimized, but that's kinda irrelevant.

What seems absolutely insane to me is that they're trying to come up with intricate ways to beat the AoE damage drop-off, instead of getting rid of it. Check this post by @Sublime. It shows how detonation barely keeps up with the drop-off.

DeanTheCat

@Merlight

I wrote that pseudo-code when I was on an Android phone browser. Cut me some slack on it!

The dynamic scaling of damage still requires far more calculations then a simple "Hit then minus damage value from health". In a large scale siege, these Siege Engines will be fired off pretty much constantly, thereby increasing the number of calculations that occurs when they are actually fired. Brian stated that his current goal was to reduce the number of calculations that happens in every cycle on the server, so this proposed dynamic scaling goes contrary to his goals.

The lag that happens is due to the sheer number of buffs and AoE bouncing from target to target (And the validation that is needed on every action due to the anti-bot code that was implemented in 1.2). That's why ability ticks were slowed down, along with the minor buffs from using class abilities no longer propagating to non-grouped allies. From what I gathered from the reasoning behind the change, one of the major offenders for the lag was the Minor Savagery buff that procced from every critical hit a Nightblade landed, due to the sheer frequency of the critical hits that Nightblades land. This resulted the buff constantly causing LoS checks to nearby allies to apply the buff, thereby causing lag by the Nightblade simply being present at the battle. The other class buffs also caused this, but not at the frequency that the Nightblade passive was proccing it.

As others have stated in the thread before me, Brian is having his hands tied by the ineptitude of Wrobel. He simply cannot make the changes that is desperately needed to improve Cyrodiil as they all fall under Wrobel's jurisdiction. So Brian is trying to enforce his will on his little demiplane of Oblivion by making these changes to siege, to force the zergballs to disperse so that Wrobel's limitations will have a drastically reduced impact. Blame Wrobel for his failures, Brian is on our side. I'm pretty sure he is pissed off at Wrobel but he is unable to do anything other then this.

TheBull

DeanTheCat wrote: »

@Merlight

As others have stated in the thread before me, Brian is having his hands tied by the ineptitude of Wrobel. He simply cannot make the changes that is desperately needed to improve Cyrodiil as they all fall under Wrobel's jurisdiction. So Brian is trying to enforce his will on his little demiplane of Oblivion by making these changes to siege, to force the zergballs to disperse so that Wrobel's limitations will have a drastically reduced impact. Blame Wrobel for his failures, Brian is on our side. I'm pretty sure he is pissed off at Wrobel but he is unable to do anything other then this.

/signed

Xsorus

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

I take it this is in relation to my suggestion to scale the siege effects based on the number of people hit.

I55UE5

Get rid of the abilities and siege that check for number of players

Remove AoE caps

Prosper

TheBull

Get rid of AoE!

Atzel

Two Things!

1.Most of you Run in Raids , some of you even call 12-16 men groups small scale , you are wrong , 5 is already a raid.
2.Most of you quote whatever some forum mod/dev says , are you some kind of fanboys ?

OT: How about nerf purge/barrier and all these abilities that hit 20 ppl to hit 4-6 ?

Keiryan

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

I'm not even going to read the 30 pages here because I'm sure I'm echoing many of the posts

Unpurgeable snares... Okay, whatever, I can deal.

Inpurgeable Healing Debuff is an absolute game killer for anyone who gives a *** about PvP enough to not run 24 man groups. Unless siege becomes AoE capped, or you remove AoE caps from every other skill. Seems awkward to have one but not the other capped.

How about instead of altering mechanics that really don't need to be bothered with you ... I dunno... add some new PvP content to Cyrodiil to change and alter the battleground instead of care-bear bandaid fixes to *** that isn't even important?

We all know everyone is going to leave this game for CU once it comes out, but have some dignity and at least put up a fighting chance.

Ishammael

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As a follow up, internally we have looked into scaling the Siege damage/sub effects like Magicka Detonation however, this would double (and in some cases triple) the LOS checks per shot/per effect with the current ability architecture. Unfortunately this is counter to our current efforts limiting combat information per server frame, so this particular suggestion won't go in at this time.

All I read from this is that AoE caps are causing double and in some case triple the LOS checks. I suggest removal.

no he seems to be saying that they were looking to making siege operate like detonation. Meaning, for each enemy hit the damage done will scale up making siege more effective toward group players. However, the issue is that it will increase the amount of lag because the server has to read to many effects at once.

Whether the damage scales up (magicka det) or down (AoE cap) based on the number of players seem like 0 difference to me. If it causes too much server load, get rid of it.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

@DeanTheCat Pretty close, but it's more due to the structure of the ability and how it needs to apply the initial tracking ability, then check the area for how many it multiplies the damage by, then applies the damage based on that calculation and final line of sight check to apply the damage. Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done.

DeanTheCat

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@DeanTheCat Pretty close, but it's more due to the structure of the ability and how it needs to apply the initial tracking ability, then check the area for how many it multiplies the damage by, then applies the damage based on that calculation and final line of sight check to apply the damage. Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

So, if my understanding is correct, this is how a scaled siege would work?

1) Siege is fired, LoS check 1 is done to create the red circle.
2) Projectile impacts the ground, LoS check 2 is done to check the number of victims.
3) LoS check 3 is done from ground zero, to finally roast the victims of the siege engine.
4) Roasted Smurfs and Bananas are served.

As contrasted to currently:
1) Siege is fired, LoS check is done to create red circle
2) Smurfs and Bananas in red circle are incinerated.