Upcoming siege changes in next major update

Erondil

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Make it ony purgeable with "purify" (synergy of templar purge) and reduce the cooldown on the use of this synergy. I think it would be reasonnable. (a totally unpurgeable heal debuff can't exist as long as the mechanic to hold a keep/take a keep remains the same, stack the most players on flags to turn them/not let them turn)

SirDopey

Again, I see this as more of a benefit to small groups than a hindrance.

Prime Example: Last night on AZ outside brindle there were about 20 EP balled up just AP farming, at multiple times the entire group would just stand and chill in the siege AoE as their close proximity to the buildings gave them more of an advantage and the damage simply not enough to change that thinking. At no point should it be ok to see such a large group standing in AoE and copping 3 maybe 4 rounds of direct siege hits before kiting back to their resource flag. Non-purge-able effects will change this, smaller groups will be able to have a chance of breaking larger groups up and certainly forcing them out of their close proximity surroundings that they use to massively overpower smaller groups.

PainfulFAFA

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

Zheg

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

PainfulFAFA

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

Just stop for a second and do some math.
-4 sieges fit on the front flag area at best
-1 siege on the back flag
-2 siege on the sides (siege merchant areas)
-2 siege on the stairs (1 on each side)
-5-6 siege upstairs AT BEST W/O OILS

Grand Total of 15 siege at best for a well defended keep.
Priority will be to clear the top.
If you wanna clear the bottom part drop some oils down.
Thats one way to look at it but then again zerglings aren't known for their analytical skills.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc... they refuse to adapt to a new meta were zerg stacking COULD kill you.

Satiar

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

bowmanz607

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

as another long time pvper who has pretty much done every kind of pvp, i suggest you implement all of these changes . I think all of these changes are great, but would like to see a longer testing period than usual to test and adjust the numbers. I think the only issue may be numbers such as is 5k stam reduction too much? IDK, we need to test it.

Starshadw

Zheg wrote: »

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

Caltrops and oil catas first, and then pummel with both lightning ballis and oil catas to drain resources once folks are slowed and have no way to get out of the siege circle. Then, toss in a meatbag and scattershot for the heal debuff. Then, fire or coldfire, and done.

TheBull

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0_z8bOUi5M

I counted around 70+ Purges here in this 4 min video. Tell me there is not an issue.


Nice music btw.

maxjapank

Satiar wrote: »

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.(

I've read most of your posts. Some of what you say makes me think more. It's helpful. But some of what you say makes me think you are not as knowledgeable as you think you are. We are not ignorant just because we don't agree with you. We are having a discussion here, and fortunately we are all very passionate about the game.

I don't expect all of the changes to happen as originally written. Brian has already said that our comments are being taken into consideration. But there is a lot of opinions, and some of them are going to be different from yours.

TheBull

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

It needs to be done. It needs to be done now. Not a little bit, or half way. It needs to be done wholeheartedly to achieve the desired effect of ending the ball up spam purge meta.

Darlgon

driosketch wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

Catching up on this thread.. in case no one answered you in the 24ish pages...

driosketch wrote: »

Okay someone explain to me how non purgable meat bags favors numbers? Often I have found myself dending keeps against a larger seige group and watching as they shrug off my counter siege. I've also been on the reverse, droping purifying ritual and a breath between reloads. As a defender, with less room to place seige, this is better. (And before anyone says it, it is a bit easier to hit players on the ground below than up on the wall.) A small group could also decimate a zergball rushing through a breach with this change.

I guess a large number of spread out players could slaughter a group of players stacked in a train spamming AoE. But that would require smarter play on the former's part, so I don't have an issue with that.

For a 3-5 player gank group vs. a dozen or fewer, the seige is too slow to be an issue.

Bottom line, this doesn't hurt small groups, it hurts the balls.

@driosketch

If you think 3-5 as a small group.. you must have not played in Cyro since Beta. It is indeed a gank squad, useful to take out stragglers then to either Streak away to infinity or be crushed by the group when they come back to rez the dead.

Picture 12 defenders, at BRK, when Arrius gets 20 seige and flags. They arrive from their ride, and 36 attackers have already setup inside the keep. AS THEY try to cross the courtyard, which has already been cleared of guards, they get hit with

Meatbag. six of them for 4420, the other six for 2210.. and all of them have an unpurgable debuff to healing.
Next, a oil catapult, six for 3400 ... and the rest for 1700, plus, taking 5000 stamina from ALL.
Healing springs, is cast, but already debuffed to hit only six of them at half power, heals six for 1200, and the rest for nothing.
Next a fire treb, six for 13260 and all of them for three ticks of 6600. IF unpurgable, they ALL get hit for 19820.

Thats.. all of them hit with 22730 dmg. If they got unlucky on all three, they were hit for 40900.

How many do you think made it more than three hits?

Now.. turn that around.. 24 players at BRK, when Arrius flags with 20 seige. When they arrive at BRK, they find most of the 12 attackers are using two Stone trebs. As such, say they actually breached the outer... without man power to put three seige on the doors, they are all on the inner.

The 24 man, runs inside, unchallenged,

THEY set up a Meatbag, Oil Cat and Fire treb...

See where this would end up?

But, for arguments sake, lets say the 12 attackers did indeed set up Meatbag, Oil Cat and Fire Treb on courtyard and had it manned,, slowing down the keep take.

Meatbag. six of them for 4420, the other 18 for 2210.. and all of them have an unpurgable debuff to healing.
Next, a oil catapult, six for 3400 ... and the rest for 1700, plus, taking 5000 stamina from ALL.
Healing springs, is cast, but already debuffed to hit only six of them at half power, heals six for 1200, and the rest for nothing.
Next a fire treb, six for 13260 and all of them for three ticks of 6600. IF unpurgable, they ALL get hit for 19820.

Thats.. all of them hit with 22730 dmg. If they got unlucky on all three, they were hit for 40900. Except, the chances of them being the unlucky three decreases, because they are a group of 24, instead of 12.

How does this change benefit smaller groups again?

@Darlgon
And you must not play objectives in Cyrodiil very much if you think that's how these keep scenarios would play out. We are talking about the most key and arguably the most defensible keep in EP home territory. It's defense would not come down to 12 players, let alone 12 out of BRK. Personally, I've only known 12 man groups to PvDoor a keep or to defend an outpost or resource tower. I've seen a group of 20 do what you describe. But for the sake of argument, let's say a 12 man team rides in to save Arrius.

Arrius faces north, and the LM side is a narrow strip. So 20 seige is likely on the mine side, though which resorce/s are flipped would be a big clue where they are. This means the 12 man group is either entering the opposite side from seige, or through the breach behind the siege line. Now if the attackers are caught unaware, the group could make a direct run for the front door. Otherwise they could also swing wide to the north around to the other side while kiting a few attackers, or run behind the siege line along the wall, loop the tower and enter the upper deck door.

It's unlikely even a 36 group would be sitting on three none wall damage siege aimed at the exact path the small group would take. Let alone hit everyone dead center every time unless they were all mindlessly stacked on the crown. Also, healing springs? Are they staying in the circle for all the heal ticks too, is that how they get hit three times in a row? Probably everyone is also running an identical PBAoE build, but maybe swap a temp healer into a slot. Even one could heal through the meatbag damage and debuff. A potion could compensate for the oil drain, and flame DoT is still purgable. Once inside, assuming they took the smart way in, they can now set up siege themselves to defend against the bigger group.

The second scenario features a small group already working against a defensible position, also out numbered, and against what are described as a capable group. Small group would probably wipe today under those three disadvantages even without the siege change or even if caps were removed. Frankly, unless battle spirit was changed to double your stats when fighting double your number, or the large group didn't know how to fight, I don't see any reason the small group should win here.

Sadly, based on a true story from Trueflame. I was solo, testing seige damage numbers. No idea where all the EP were, but, we had six break up a AD PVDoor group at Drake. We ported to BRK, with Arrius flagged.Only three of us were chatting in zone, but, one apparently brand new player, at least was at Arrius. He started by asking what the loud booming noise was....

The DC zerglings had taken outer and were on inner by the time we got there from BRK.

What I left out, because, frankly, my point was to illustrate how quickly a small group would die to a large group with seige and advantage.. Was, the small groups goal is to, not defend, but slow down the take, long enough for the rest of the faction to arrive to help. Cant do that if dead. Fortunately, a guild must have been running silent, because they came and bailed us out.

frozywozy

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

Xsorus

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

That seems to sum it up; certain guilds it seems are upset that 24 man raid stacked on top of each other will no longer be all powerful anymore; they haven't developed the skill to actually learn how to spread when being attacked because game mechanics gave them a pass. Now they're upset they may actually have to learn how to properly pvp in a game for once and avoid things like dangerous aoe. I know.. It's stressfully you've never had to learn how to do it.. But I'm sure they'll manage.

Teargrants

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

That seems to sum it up; certain guilds it seems are upset that 24 man raid stacked on top of each other will no longer be all powerful anymore; they haven't developed the skill to actually learn how to spread when being attacked because game mechanics gave them a pass. Now they're upset they may actually have to learn how to properly pvp in a game for once and avoid things like dangerous aoe. I know.. It's stressfully you've never had to learn how to do it.. But I'm sure they'll manage.

No, none of us have been playing small man for at least a year with dozens of videos as proof... we're all just baddie zergers who can't think! You paint people who play in groups like mine as mindless, poor players because it suits your narrative and you get to discard everything we say. Like I said, toxic. But none of it is true, which makes it all the worse.

Satiar

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

I've suggested plenty, and even said I'll try the patch. But wow, that complex. Don't like it? Leave! Because that's worked so well for this game in the past right? And the game should just keep bleeding out the few long term players it has left, right?

I've stuck with this game through some pretty gross patches. I've earned the right to call something game breaking when I see it, and I don't have to tell ZoS how to fix thier own game in order to do so.

I think this game has room for all types of players, those who like big fights, small scale, duels. That's healthy. What's not healthy is taking everyone who enjoys one aspect, demonizing them, advocating changes that obliterate thier entire play style, and than telling them to leave if they don't like it. The toxic attitudes in this thread, I swear to Akatosh!

Xsorus

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

That seems to sum it up; certain guilds it seems are upset that 24 man raid stacked on top of each other will no longer be all powerful anymore; they haven't developed the skill to actually learn how to spread when being attacked because game mechanics gave them a pass. Now they're upset they may actually have to learn how to properly pvp in a game for once and avoid things like dangerous aoe. I know.. It's stressfully you've never had to learn how to do it.. But I'm sure they'll manage.

No, none of us have been playing small man for at least a year with dozens of videos as proof... we're all just baddie zergers who can't think! You paint people who play in groups like mine as mindless, poor players because it suits your narrative and you get to discard everything we say. Like I said, toxic. But none of it is true, which makes it all the worse.

Your inability to avoid the big red circle under your feet says all it does about the narrative.

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

That seems to sum it up; certain guilds it seems are upset that 24 man raid stacked on top of each other will no longer be all powerful anymore; they haven't developed the skill to actually learn how to spread when being attacked because game mechanics gave them a pass. Now they're upset they may actually have to learn how to properly pvp in a game for once and avoid things like dangerous aoe. I know.. It's stressfully you've never had to learn how to do it.. But I'm sure they'll manage.

No, none of us have been playing small man for at least a year with dozens of videos as proof... we're all just baddie zergers who can't think! You paint people who play in groups like mine as mindless, poor players because it suits your narrative and you get to discard everything we say. Like I said, toxic. But none of it is true, which makes it all the worse.

Your inability to avoid the big red circle under your feet says all it does about the narrative.

I've explained multiple times how pushing objectives essentially forces you to stand on flags, push chokes, gain and hold territory. It's something people who actually play group combat know, and you dismiss it out of hand despite by your own admission never even playing group combat! At all!

Mate, I'll invite ya. Come play with us for a night. We will push a Haxus emp keep or something. I'll find us a hoard of yellows at Roebeck or Ash. You can play and se for yourself how it is, and if you still disagree this strongly I'll make like Frozn and just let it go lol

frozywozy

Teargrants wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

As mentioned multiple times in this thread, Brian Wheeler opened this discussion to get our feedbacks regarding the proposed changes. They WILL BE adjusted in consequences to what we think. Brian has said that he's been going through every little detail in each and every single post.

Those changes are going to, in a first time, hit the PTS and hopefuly they will also improve their approach there and listen more to players willing to download the PTS client and test their game live, and finally it will be released months ahead of now which give us plenty of time to discuss about the subject.

We have had almost 30pages full of great ideas in about 2days~! This is going really well so far and I'm confident we will all come to an agreement, and even if some people are not comfortable with the changes, they will adjust and they will have plenty of fun. It will be more competitive and harder for ballgroups, that's a sure thing. We just have to find the just middle to not make it too easy to destroy them. A.k.a not killing them just because they got hit by one oil catapult followed by a meatbag followed by a lightning balista followed by a stone treb.

I think giving them the possibility to purge the siege negative effects with a synergy, no matter from which skill it is, is a great way to make this happen since it would require individual interaction.

This being said, @Satiar pointed in his post that he would like changes to be introduced slowly. This is not what I call "suggestions and recommendations" regarding the actual changes, he just states the obvious and the purpose of this thread as a whole. To take their time before deploying too drastic changes.

If he wants to be constructive, he should talk about the siege mechanics. How to buff them without penalizing ballgroups too much.. how does he see the purging system changed without decreasing server performances even more and without inciting people to just stack more players using it.. this is what I mean by suggestions.

Btw I wasn't reffering to you in my post. Other people have been posting alot without giving any advice. They've been talking about consequences and how bad changes are.

PainfulFAFA

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

That seems to sum it up; certain guilds it seems are upset that 24 man raid stacked on top of each other will no longer be all powerful anymore; they haven't developed the skill to actually learn how to spread when being attacked because game mechanics gave them a pass. Now they're upset they may actually have to learn how to properly pvp in a game for once and avoid things like dangerous aoe. I know.. It's stressfully you've never had to learn how to do it.. But I'm sure they'll manage.

No, none of us have been playing small man for at least a year with dozens of videos as proof... we're all just baddie zergers who can't think! You paint people who play in groups like mine as mindless, poor players because it suits your narrative and you get to discard everything we say. Like I said, toxic. But none of it is true, which makes it all the worse.

Your inability to avoid the big red circle under your feet says all it does about the narrative.

I've explained multiple times how pushing objectives essentially forces you to stand on flags, push chokes, gain and hold territory. It's something people who actually play group combat know, and you dismiss it out of hand despite by your own admission never even playing group combat! At all!

Mate, I'll invite ya. Come play with us for a night. We will push a Haxus emp keep or something. I'll find us a hoard of yellows at Roebeck or Ash. You can play and se for yourself how it is, and if you still disagree this strongly I'll make like Frozn and just let it go lol

Nobody is arguing how objectives are pushed. We have all played in groups, we get it.
However, the current meta (since 1.6) has made it easy for blobs to take objectives.
So easy all you need is a 16+ raid with barrier, purges, rapids, 1 spammable AOE, proxi dets, and a head calling out directions. Simple as that. Nothing can stop that. Only an equally large or larger zerg can counter that....

The new meta will change that. Raid nights for those guilds will require more than just what i stated above...
1 breach might not be enough for a raid to blob through a well defended keep and blobs are going nuts about that.

Can't zerg through a breach because its well defended with siege?
Swiss cheese the damn place and then we'll see how long they can last inside.

But people are just so used to:
-taking down ONE wall (inner or outer)
-stacking up and blobbing the top (some groups are so large enough to skip this part)
-stacking on flags for the quick flip

Done in 5 minutes. What a joke.

Satiar

Frozn, you not liking my suggestions does not make them invalid. I think introducing one major change at a time, instead of dumping them all in a big patch and calling it quits for 6 month is a really good suggestion, Maybe we end up with 3/4 of the changes, putting some weights on my play style instead of chaining to cinder blocks and pushing us off the pier.

That's feedback. Me detailing how and why some changes look like disasters in eating? Also feedback.

Satiar

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

That seems to sum it up; certain guilds it seems are upset that 24 man raid stacked on top of each other will no longer be all powerful anymore; they haven't developed the skill to actually learn how to spread when being attacked because game mechanics gave them a pass. Now they're upset they may actually have to learn how to properly pvp in a game for once and avoid things like dangerous aoe. I know.. It's stressfully you've never had to learn how to do it.. But I'm sure they'll manage.

No, none of us have been playing small man for at least a year with dozens of videos as proof... we're all just baddie zergers who can't think! You paint people who play in groups like mine as mindless, poor players because it suits your narrative and you get to discard everything we say. Like I said, toxic. But none of it is true, which makes it all the worse.

Your inability to avoid the big red circle under your feet says all it does about the narrative.

I've explained multiple times how pushing objectives essentially forces you to stand on flags, push chokes, gain and hold territory. It's something people who actually play group combat know, and you dismiss it out of hand despite by your own admission never even playing group combat! At all!

Mate, I'll invite ya. Come play with us for a night. We will push a Haxus emp keep or something. I'll find us a hoard of yellows at Roebeck or Ash. You can play and se for yourself how it is, and if you still disagree this strongly I'll make like Frozn and just let it go lol

Nobody is arguing how objectives are pushed. We have all played in groups, we get it.
However, the current meta (since 1.6) has made it easy for blobs to take objectives.
So easy all you need is a 16+ raid with barrier, purges, rapids, 1 spammable AOE, proxi dets, and a head calling out directions. Simple as that. Nothing can stop that. Only an equally large or larger zerg can counter that....

The new meta will change that. Raid nights for those guilds will require more than just what i stated above...
1 breach might not be enough for a raid to blob through a well defended keep and blobs are going nuts about that.

Can't zerg through a breach because its well defended with siege?
Swiss cheese the damn place and then we'll see how long they can last inside.

And when I have 16 attacking and you have 50 defending do I just go home? Because the mechanics are rediculously stacked against me?

What you have discribed is an incentive to bring MORE numbers, and murdering the only groups capable of engaging that larger force without calling in a Zerg of thier own.

You can weight the game against me so hard my friends and i throw up our hands and do something else, but you'll still have 100 people lagging the server down with numbers because it has become th only reliable way to win.

frozywozy

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you not liking my suggestions does not make them invalid. I think introducing one major change at a time, instead of dumping them all in a big patch and calling it quits for 6 month is a really good suggestion, Maybe we end up with 3/4 of the changes, putting some weights on my play style instead of chaining to cinder blocks and pushing us off the pier.

That's feedback. Me detailing how and why some changes look like disasters in eating? Also feedback.

I also agree that we should take our time before deploying too many changes. I agree with you on this point, do you understand? What I'm saying is that I would like to hear solutions regarding the changes proposed. You know, theorycrafting.. Numbers.. Mechanics.. Strategies.. Concepts about meatbags (healing debuffs), oil catapults (snares + stamina dmg), lightning balistas (snares + magicka dmg), how to remove negative effects, how to manage snare immunity, etc. Those are straight basics coming from the present changes to work on.

Satiar

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Frozn, you not liking my suggestions does not make them invalid. I think introducing one major change at a time, instead of dumping them all in a big patch and calling it quits for 6 month is a really good suggestion, Maybe we end up with 3/4 of the changes, putting some weights on my play style instead of chaining to cinder blocks and pushing us off the pier.

That's feedback. Me detailing how and why some changes look like disasters in eating? Also feedback.

You didn't understand my point. I also agree that we should take our time before deploying too many changes. I agree with you on this point, do you understand? What I'm saying is that I would like to hear solutions regarding the changes proposed. You know, theorycrafting.. Numbers.. Mechanics.. Strategies about meatbags (healing debuffs), oil catapults (snares + stamina dmg), lightning balistas (snares + magicka dmg), how to remove negative effects, how to manage snare immunity, etc. Those are straight basics coming from the present changes to work on.

WRX and Mano among others have put forward excellent thoughts on this already. Honestly I've said my bit too on this though you might have missed it. in earlier posts I've detailed how having completely uncounterable siege mechanics is poor gameplay, and have agreed with others discussing having personal purges/cleanses available to them. What I've said has mostly been dismissed under the banner of "stop the ball groups!" and in all sincerity I'm really more concerned that some of these changes are even being considered in the first place. From my perspective, it's like someone saying: "Remember infinite batswarm ? That would break up a ball group, right?"

maxjapank

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

To be honest, after reading the last couple pages and hearing the opinion of people who are against the changes (which most of us, small/medium scale players are but don't take the same approach), all I can read in their paragraphs are direct consequences of the actual siege changes. All into details, what will happen if my ballgroup gets stucked in this and get stucked in that, and then I'm going to die.

But in the end, there is absolutely no constructive suggestions being made by those ballgroups. Some of them even go ahead and say that they could play with sieges totally removed from the games. Or they threaten Zenimax saying that if these changes get live, they're done with the game.

You're done? So be it! Good ridden. Less lag.

That seems to sum it up; certain guilds it seems are upset that 24 man raid stacked on top of each other will no longer be all powerful anymore; they haven't developed the skill to actually learn how to spread when being attacked because game mechanics gave them a pass. Now they're upset they may actually have to learn how to properly pvp in a game for once and avoid things like dangerous aoe. I know.. It's stressfully you've never had to learn how to do it.. But I'm sure they'll manage.

No, none of us have been playing small man for at least a year with dozens of videos as proof... we're all just baddie zergers who can't think! You paint people who play in groups like mine as mindless, poor players because it suits your narrative and you get to discard everything we say. Like I said, toxic. But none of it is true, which makes it all the worse.

Your inability to avoid the big red circle under your feet says all it does about the narrative.

I've explained multiple times how pushing objectives essentially forces you to stand on flags, push chokes, gain and hold territory. It's something people who actually play group combat know, and you dismiss it out of hand despite by your own admission never even playing group combat! At all!

Mate, I'll invite ya. Come play with us for a night. We will push a Haxus emp keep or something. I'll find us a hoard of yellows at Roebeck or Ash. You can play and se for yourself how it is, and if you still disagree this strongly I'll make like Frozn and just let it go lol

Nobody is arguing how objectives are pushed. We have all played in groups, we get it.
However, the current meta (since 1.6) has made it easy for blobs to take objectives.
So easy all you need is a 16+ raid with barrier, purges, rapids, 1 spammable AOE, proxi dets, and a head calling out directions. Simple as that. Nothing can stop that. Only an equally large or larger zerg can counter that....

The new meta will change that. Raid nights for those guilds will require more than just what i stated above...
1 breach might not be enough for a raid to blob through a well defended keep and blobs are going nuts about that.

Can't zerg through a breach because its well defended with siege?
Swiss cheese the damn place and then we'll see how long they can last inside.

But people are just so used to:
-taking down ONE wall (inner or outer)
-stacking up and blobbing the top (some groups are so large enough to skip this part)
-stacking on flags for the quick flip

Done in 5 minutes. What a joke.

Well said. My thoughts on the current gameplay as well.

Nafirian

TheBull wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

It needs to be done. It needs to be done now. Not a little bit, or half way. It needs to be done wholeheartedly to achieve the desired effect of ending the ball up spam purge meta.

So your now just crying about any grp that uses purge or has a dedicated purger >.>

TheBull

Nafirian wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

It needs to be done. It needs to be done now. Not a little bit, or half way. It needs to be done wholeheartedly to achieve the desired effect of ending the ball up spam purge meta.

So your now just crying about any grp that uses purge or has a dedicated purger >.>

/yawn

ToRelax

This thread is growing so fast it's crazy...

@ZOS_BrianWheeler :
I think 16 sec is a bit long for the unpurgeable debuff, though 6 seconds is pretty short admittedly, considering no one should be hit a second time by this siege weapon if they try to move away. Even when snared, unless they are drained of stamina completely, in wich case they should die anyway. I'd like to have it on about 8-10 seconds, ofc adjust it if that doesn't turn out well.
Also, if the healing debuff is effected by the champion passive that increases healdebuffs, it should be 50% instead of 75%, to not make a 100% healing debuff possible. Not saying it should be 75% otherwise though, especially if no way to purge it is being introduced.

I think @Erondil suggested to decrease the cooldown on the synergy for Cleansing Ritual. I would be careful with that, since sieges have a reload time acting as a cooldown, and smaller groups can use less sieges. I don't want it to be possible to purify once every siege volley without just moving out of the way. That fear might be unreasonable, considering siege also drains resources, but yeah.
For a small group I don't think they'd have that much trouble if Shuffle, Efficient Purge, Cleansing Ritual and it's synergy all purged siege debuffs - if they tried to move out of the way then.

Wich brings me to the next point. After my last post I still see the argument used very often, that groups of any size can't just "spread out" in every situation... examples being choke points, breaches and especially flags.
And the answer stays the same, you have to outplay your opponent. Develop strategies to get players through defended breaches (and no, this should under no circumstances be an easy task, it should seem hard to impossible to achieve). Open other breaches. Flag other objectives. Use other milegates.
And spread out that zergblob already, any arguments how a change will hurt a meta that the change is designed for to break is hilarious.

The following became a rather long and more in depth part than I imagined, so I will make a thread for the flag system on it's own as well. I'll leave the text here as well in a spoiler.

Here's the discussion now: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/234241/suggestion-for-a-change-in-the-flag-system

Now the flags, these are the only situation in that one realls has to stack up players, wich is a problem with the flag system itself, not anything else.
As far as I currently understand, every players or guard NPC turns the flag by 1 "unit" every "round" (not sure about the intervals here) as long as the keep is flagged. It may also be that it only requires a wall to be under 50% or another value, independent from the siege status you see on the map or that turning a flag can flag a keep, doesn't really matter to the argument at hand.
Now every enemy player and NPC guard reduces the amonut of units the flag is turned per round. I am not sure how 3 faction fights work exactly though. There also may or may not be a cap on the amonut of units the flag can turn per round, but most likely no cap on the amount of players contributing to it by nullifying the presence of enemies in the flag area.
So that's the basis I have that I try to argue from. It would be nice if we could have more insight here if possible.

My goal would be to change it so that 1.) stacking more numbers on the flag is not always beneficial and 2.) that the keep can not be turned while the defenders are still alive on the flag, while trying to make the change as simple as possible to make it happen as likely as possible.
So I would first set a cap on the numbers of players that can contribute to turning flag for an attacking force. I am thinking 6 would be a good number since someone told me that may be the limit of units turning per round currently, so it may be easier to code idk. At least it is not too small or large I think. Incidentically, a ram works about the same way, although it requires a limit of 3 players on the ram, wich I don't think would be a good idea for a flag. However again, it may be easier to code something similar then, especiall if an UI element like at the ram is implemented that shows an attacker wether he is contributing to turning the flag.
Then I think the flag should not turn towards an attacking force if at least one defending player or NPC guard is alive in it's area. However, it may make taking a keep too hard when outnumbered if the flag would turn back too fast or you couldn't stop it from happening. So I think it would be a good thing to let attackers at the flag negate the effort of up to 6 defenders to turn it back. With the cap for the defenders still being at 6.
If an UI element similar to the ram one is implemented, you could then use the red manlike symbols, appearing when 2 or less players try to operate it, to symbolize the amount of players who's effort in turning the flag their direction is currently negated by an enemy.

A few examples of how I imagine this to work so far:
- 4 DC players and 1 NPC guard inside an EP keep -> flag will not turn at all.
- 4 DC players and 1 EP player inside an AD keep -> flag will turn 3 units per round to blue.
- 16 DC players and no EP in an EP keep -> flag turns 6 units per round to blue.
- 2 DC and 8 EP in an EP keep -> flag turns 4 units per round to red.
- 12 AD and 48 EP in an AD keep -> flag will not turn at all.

Now this logic doesn't nessecarily include 3 way fights on a flag.
I have no idea how this is currently working really, so I might be very far off with something that is relatively easy to implement.
Generally, I'd like to keep the cap of 6 for all factions. If possible I would now add the two lower numbers together against the largest one, again with a cap of 6, and only in the occasion that the largest number of players/guards belongs to the faction the flag is currently turned on or that the flag is neutral (also neutral because it could end in a loop otherwise, wich would be kinda weird). Note that the flag still won't turn another colour if the largest number happens to own the keep, however it could stop the flag from turning back to the current keep owner.
That brings up another case, that a flag is turned to the color of an "attacker" who is not highest in numbers. In that case, the defenders and other attacking force should combine to turn the flag into neutral, where the above rules apply again.
In any other case, I would simply take only the larger enemy force into account.
This could without too much of a drawback also be extended over the special case I explained above. It only has to be made sure there's not a loophole allowing a 3rd faction to turn a flag their in their favour while defenders a alive, or to field more players than the rest.

So again, some examples, using the special case rules:
- 4 DC, 3 EP and 2 NPC guards at an AD resource -> If the flag is yellow, will not turn at all. If the flag is blue, it will turn into neutral with 1 unit per round. If the flag is red, it will turn into neutral with 3 units per round.
- 5 DC, 3 EP and 2 NPC guards at an AD resource -> If the flag is yellow, it will not turn at all. If the flag is blue, it will not turn at all. If the flag is red, it will turn into neutral with 3 units per round.
- 2 DC players, 3 EP players and 16 AD players in an AD keep -> If the flag is yellow or neutral, it will turn yellow with 1 unit per round. If the flag is blue, it will turn neutral with 4 units per round. If the flag is red, it will turn neutral with 3 units per round.

I would also increase the flag area slightly so that the fight can spread out better, and players are less forced to stack up on the flag so they can all be hit with AoE (6 targets hit is still a lot in my book).

So that's it mostly. The important part is the 2 way fight and the complicated one the 3 way fight, really. A comment from ZOS on how the system is currently working, and wether you are planning on any change or how likely one would be would be appreciated.

Turelus

My biggest issue with unpurgable is it makes one item in the game the exception to the rules.

The same way blocking/skills protect against all pulls/pushes in the game... except stanglers. The more of these exceptions you add the more confusing the game becomes for people who need to have it explained to them.

I would still rather this was something changed at the skill level.