Upcoming siege changes in next major update

Maulkin

Turelus wrote: »

My biggest issue with unpurgable is it makes one item in the game the exception to the rules.

The same way blocking/skills protect against all pulls/pushes in the game... except stanglers. The more of these exceptions you add the more confusing the game becomes for people who need to have it explained to them.

I would still rather this was something changed at the skill level.

Siege is already an exception to all rules so I'm fine with that.

Siege deals irresistible, uniform damage that is unaffected by the attacker's damage stats or the defender's armor/spell res. It is unblockable, undodgeable, uncapped, unmitigateable by CPs. People have to learn that already, knowing that the secondary effects are unpurgable is not that much of a stretch. We had unpurgeable oil catas up till 1.6, our brains didn't explode with the complexity of it.

Skill changes are much needed and they have been mentioned but they should be complementary to this. Whatever they do with Purge or Barrier, siege needs a buff anyway. I don't run either skill and siege still barely tickles me when I'm sieged/counter-sieged.

People should fear siege, not ignore it. Just bumping damage itself will not get you that effect. Some short duration unpurgable effects will certainly help.

As such, I'm actually liking the 6" duration cause it's fairly short and it's also being normalised across all siege effects. The effect of a 50% heal debuff for 6" is not much different to the effect of Lethal Arrow / Reverberating Bash which is 30% but lasts 10", if you don't have purge on your bars.

One question I have and if anyone or @ZOS_BrianWheeler knows the answer it would be great. Does the heal debuff from meatbag benefit from Befoul CP passive (Increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities)? It shouldn't be, but I just want to be sure.

I'm personally happy with the latest suggestions from Brian and would much like to test them on PTS before commenting further. So long as PTS is not final and they keep an open mind to feedback, like they've done in this thread, I see no reason not to.

Finally, it's a shame people here are throwing insults at one another and sidetracking the conversation, but that's the internet for you...

Enodoc

@Turelus @ToRelax and others who were commenting on the flag system - you may be interested in my Active Flag Capture Concept, which I wrote on Wednesday but forgot to link.

Turelus

Enodoc wrote: »

@Turelus @ToRelax and others who were commenting on the flag system - you may be interested in my Active Flag Capture Concept, which I wrote on Wednesday but forgot to link.

Thanks, will give it a read when I get a chance.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

This, coming from you !? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!!

Nafirian

TheBull wrote: »

Nafirian wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

It needs to be done. It needs to be done now. Not a little bit, or half way. It needs to be done wholeheartedly to achieve the desired effect of ending the ball up spam purge meta.

So your now just crying about any grp that uses purge or has a dedicated purger >.>

/yawn

Dont be salty

Manoekin

Nafirian wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Nafirian wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

It needs to be done. It needs to be done now. Not a little bit, or half way. It needs to be done wholeheartedly to achieve the desired effect of ending the ball up spam purge meta.

So your now just crying about any grp that uses purge or has a dedicated purger >.>

/yawn

Dont be salty

He can't help it. He's been doing this since the game came out. He was born in the salt.

Anazasi

I'm still not too concerned with these upcoming changes. Small groups will out maneuver the damage and at the same time allow them to use the siege against lager zergs. Yes I know lots of players are scared here with these upcoming ideal changes. They should be. If your play style is to roll up on a keep with 60 players in a ball and lay siege, well guess what, there is not enough room for you to run and hide against determined defenders. The meta will certainly change and the numbers you run with will be seriously questioned.

You can imagine with the siege cap at 20 for each faction, the outer walls will be maxed with cats and ballista and the ground behind the wall will be packed with trebs. The amount of damage and the area at which the damage hits will force players to abandon siege and flee based on saturation models. Is this not this what the players want or asked for? Do we not want to change the meta from storming keep after keep with 60 plus players stacked? Stop being so critical about change and learn to think outside the box. This is a good thing and good players, just like good groups will adjust quickly. Bad players will either learn and adapt or become casualties.

So when you hear in zone or in group or on TS, fire your siege and get off, wait for the reload, I guess it will actually sink in when the death recap tell them.

Ishammael

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Thanks for the update.

The critical piece of the discussion has centered on un-purgeable effects. All negative effects need counters. That purge (and cloak, and cleanse) could remove everything in one pass is the issue. Effects that cannot be countered (e.g. a 6s major defile from a meatbag or a 6s snare) are poor gameplay devices. Players will scream in frustration. In a combat system where a skill can be activated every second, 6 seconds is an eternity. Considerations for purge should be things like: 6-target cap, one effect at a time, and so forth. Considered for negative effects should be things like a global cooldown analogous to the CC immunity period.

SturgeHammer

Teargrants wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Totally missed this thread. Wheres the siege weapon that does more damage per targets hit - FENGRUSH will use this one!

You mean this siege?

I would love to see some altars added to the alliance war for casting power spells with cool effects like that. Add some capturable Mage tower objectives where the controlling alliance can go to purchase them.

Darlgon

Ok..so. This time, lets take some scissors and tape, and see if we are on the same page as Wheeler and crew, and Wrobel and crew. We often have to try to read their minds, it feels like.. THEN they say we are wrong or right. I think I got it all.. My notes / questions in { }.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

In the next major update we'll be adjusting damage and other effects from siege weapons. This will go in conjunction with other changes regarding repair kits and keep upgrades, but the changes noted here are specific to players effects (damage, snares, dots, etc.).

These changes are currently being tested internally and may change before they go to PTS/Live:

[#1] Damage across the board for all siege weapons has been increased roughly 30%, but we are considering increasing that more.

{No word on if that is just vs players, vs players and NPCs, or if it includes walls and other seige, so we are going with yes, until told otherwise.}

[#2] Snares have been normalized on all siege weapons that apply that debuff (ice treb, lightning ballista, oil catapult) to be a 50% snare, and last 6 seconds.

[#3a] All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.

[#3b] Just to clarify, the DOT on Flame Trebs and Flame Ballista can still be purged....for now.

[#3c] Flaming oil can be purged as it's just a flame tick like the flame treb/ballista DoT. That being said... the feedback here and testing internally and on PTS may change that.

[#3d] For the sake of discussion, and bearing in mind possible changes to Purge (the ability itself as noted by Wrobel in his thread), how would a 50% healing reduction instead of 75% from the meatbag sound as well as being purge-able?

[#3e] It's currently a 75% reduction to healing taken.

[#3f] Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!


[#4] Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.

[#5] Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.

[#6] Scattershot now adds 20% damage taken from other siege weapons instead of 10%

[#7] Ballista now turn faster and have their "scatter" variable removed, making them 100% accurate to your aimed location.

[#8]Siege will still travel at it's current speed.

{Speed of projectile thru the air? Or are you just talking moving the slow and impossible for others to move ram?}


Flaming Oil (Cost 800 AP) Hits
(oops. Forgot to record that one, bad start)
Direct drop only, small ring
Will be [#1] [3f] (1.3 *x) [#3c] Purgable 6 second Fire DoT to NPCs
[#2] NA

Pact Ballista (Cost 1800 AP) Hits
Long Range, Large AoE Ring
Now, 2000 Walls and 4985 NPCs
Will be [#1] 2660 Walls and 6630 to NPCs
[#2] NA
[#7] Now turn faster and hit without a "scatter" variable

Pact Fire Ballista (Cost 1200 AP or 450 Gold) Hits
Medium Range, Medium AoE Ring
Now, 1000 Walls, 12000 to other seige and 19,938 (6646 x 3) fire DoT to NPCs
Will be [#1] [#3bf] 1330 Walls, 15960 to other seige and 25517 (8839 x 3) Purgable 6 second fire DoT to NPCs
[#2] NA
[#7] Now turn faster and hit without a "scatter" variable

Pact Firepot Trebuchet (1800 AP) Hits
Long Range, Large AoE Ring
Now, 3500 Walls and 9969 Impact + 14985 (4965 x 3) Fire Dot NPCs
Will be [#1] [#3b] 4655 Walls and 13258 Impact + 19810 (6603 x 3) Purgable 6 second Fire Dot NPCs
[#2] NA

Pact Iceball Trebuchet (1800 AP) Hits
Long Range, Large AoE Ring
Now, 3000 Walls and 8307 Impact NPCs + snares all in target
Will be [#1] 3990 Walls and 11048 Impact NPCs + snares all in target
[#2] [#3a] 6 Second Non-purgeable 50% Snare

Pact Lightning Ballista (Cost 1200 AP) Hits
Medium Range, Medium AoE Ring
Now, 100 Walls, 12000 to enemy siege and 4995 Impact NPCs + 8052 (2684 x 3) Lightning dmg ((+Snare) {Not Listed on tooltip.}
Will be [#1] [3af] 133 Walls, 15960 to enemy siege and 6643 Impact NPCs + 10710 (3570 x 3) {Purgable?} 6 second Lightning dmg
[#2] [#3a] 6 Second Non-purgeable 50% Snare
[#5] 5000 Damage to Magicka
[#7] Now turn faster and hit without a "scatter" variable

Pact Meatbag Catapult (Cost 1200 AP) Hits
Medium Range, Medium AoE Ring
Now, 1000 Walls, 4995 Impact NPCs + 9969 (3323 x 3) 6 second {Purgable?} Disease DoT {(+75% Healing Reduction (#)3df) 16 second (Not in Tooltip)}
Will be [#1] 1330 Walls, 4420 Impact NPCs + 13259 (4419 x 3) Disease DoT
[#2] NA
[#3d] [#3f] [#3a] Unpurgeable 6 second 50 % Incoming Healing Reduction Debuff

Pact Oil Catapult (Cost 1200 AP) Hits
Medium Range, Medium AoE Ring
Now, 500 Walls, 500 Other Seige, 2556 Impact Damage, +Snare
Will be [#1] 665 Walls, 665 Other Seige, 3399 Impact Damage, + Snare
[#2] [#3a] 6 Second Non-purgeable 50% Snare
[#4] 5000 dmg to Enemies (Players? So 10,000 dmg to Stamina to NPCs?)

Pact Scattershot Catapult (Cost 1200 AP) Hits
Medium Range, "Wide (?)" or Medium AoE Ring
Now, 200 Walls, 2812 Impact Damage, {(+10% Incoming Seige Dmg Debuff (#6)) (Not in Tooltip)}
Will be [#1] 266 Walls, 3739 Impact Damage,
[#2] NA
[#6] [#2] [#3a] 6 second (?) Unpurgable Debuff allowing +20% Incoming Damage from Other Siege

Pact Stone Trebuchet (1800 AP) Hits
Long Range, Large AoE Ring
Now, 4000 Walls and 13292 Impact to NPCs
Will be [#1] 5320 Walls and 17678 Impact to NPCs
[#2] NA


Battle Spirit Info
[#9a] Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

[#9b] For clarification, Battlespirit is not changing and the damage values on Siege were increased to make up for the damage reduction increase of Battlespirit.

[#9c] Turelus Correct! However we don't have a way to omit siege damage from Battlespirit as the server considers siege damage originating from a player since it needs an "anchor"."

Purge Discussion for Wrobels Combat Team:

{Summary of above, plus other:}

[10a] [#3a] Snare, (Iceball Treb, Lightning Ballista, Oil Catapult), healing taken reduction, (Meatbag Catapult), and siege damage increase taken (Scattershot Catapult) are no longer purgable.

{Does this mean that Immovable/Unstoppable, Forward Momentum and Rapid Manuevers will no longer provide snare immunity from Siege?}

[10b][#3b,c] The DOT on Flaming Oil, Flame Trebs and Flame Ballista can still be purged. ({Lightning and Disease? Not known}

[10c] Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

{Partial List:
Purifying Cloak
Dark Cloak
Mutagen
Cleanse}

[10d] [#3def] Purge (the ability itself as noted by Wrobel in his thread), how would a 50% healing reduction instead of 75% from the meatbag sound as well as being purge-able?

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!


[#10] "Sharee "If healing reduction is purgeable then there is no healing reduction as far as a zergball is concerned."

But if the amount of players that can be Purged is reduced, is that still a valid statement?"

{Depends on, how quickly Purge can be spammed by one player, how many players have it on their bar, if purge is limited to (a) group, (b) area, or (c) limit of number of targets. That said. IF a player with Purge on their bar does not know part of the group has the dmg debuff, and has no reason to press that button. From other posts, right now, players just press the button, (because no loss.. other in-game regen and CP magicka regen will cover the cost?)...I cant do that with Cleanse on my hybrid when he is in heal mode. With drink running, one cleanse and I need a magicka pot.

Frankly, I would say No, but I dont have the Efficient Purge morph.}

Rune_Relic

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

But I thought little groups were not (less)stacking than zergs so they should be able to avoid siege while zergs will get snared and all ? not sure how you can say categorically it's bad for small scale.

I will take this one...

A large group can carpet bomb a much larger area than a small group.
You cant get out the red when all the grass for as far as the eye can see IS RED !

ie.... a small group has to be bang on accurate and hit the moving group (using siege).
a large group just carpet bombs an area and guaranteed to hit everyone without fail (using siege).
Snared players are dead players...especially with no resources when hit by multiple siege at once.

So... good luck anyone who isn't in a large group avoiding (bigger coverage) the much more powerful (multiple hits & numbers) siege damage. Especially as AoE caps wont protect you from being hit while in the RED.

jrkhan

I think an across the board change for all defensive abilities that have them scale in cost relative to the number of targets hit would be useful. (Or, some form of debuff which causes that effect)

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

They are putting in the siege change first.
The other changes haven't been confirmed yet, certainly not for the next patch.

2nd, stop assuming that because other people disagree with you, that they are ignorant.

Going in a breach?

You can hit EVERY seige weapon that can be placed inside the inner keep capable of hitting the breach, without going inside.

Like I've said, I've played in situations (e.g. BWB in 1.4) where seige was very effective against organized groups where purge spamming wasn't a thing.

You know what? Defended keeps still got taken, and people found ways through choke points.

And it was fun.
There was a legitimate sense of accomplishment because of how difficult it was.

Does every post of yours need to be laden with personal attacks?

Satiar

jrkhan wrote: »

I think an across the board change for all defensive abilities that have them scale in cost relative to the number of targets hit would be useful. (Or, some form of debuff which causes that effect)

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

They are putting in the siege change first.
The other changes haven't been confirmed yet, certainly not for the next patch.

2nd, stop assuming that because other people disagree with you, that they are ignorant.

Going in a breach?

You can hit EVERY seige weapon that can be placed inside the inner keep capable of hitting the breach, without going inside.

Like I've said, I've played in situations (e.g. BWB in 1.4) where seige was very effective against organized groups where purge spamming wasn't a thing.

You know what? Defended keeps still got taken, and people found ways through choke points.

And it was fun.
There was a legitimate sense of accomplishment because of how difficult it was.

Does every post of yours need to be laden with personal attacks?

They don't and they aren't. There are, however, plenty of posts discounting my pints simply because I run with and lead a well known guild. Most of my points attempt to be inclusive of varied players and play styles, which I think even a very brief skim should reveal .

jrkhan

Satiar wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

I think an across the board change for all defensive abilities that have them scale in cost relative to the number of targets hit would be useful. (Or, some form of debuff which causes that effect)

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

They are putting in the siege change first.
The other changes haven't been confirmed yet, certainly not for the next patch.

2nd, stop assuming that because other people disagree with you, that they are ignorant.

Going in a breach?

You can hit EVERY seige weapon that can be placed inside the inner keep capable of hitting the breach, without going inside.

Like I've said, I've played in situations (e.g. BWB in 1.4) where seige was very effective against organized groups where purge spamming wasn't a thing.

You know what? Defended keeps still got taken, and people found ways through choke points.

And it was fun.
There was a legitimate sense of accomplishment because of how difficult it was.

Does every post of yours need to be laden with personal attacks?

They don't and they aren't. There are, however, plenty of posts discounting my pints simply because I run with and lead a well known guild. Most of my points attempt to be inclusive of varied players and play styles, which I think even a very brief skim should reveal .

That's fair
Sometimes it pays to fight fire with fire (like when trying to go in an inner breach)
And sometimes it doesn't (like when responding to angry forum posts)

Speaking of which...
With the siege change, are we expecting any improvements to cold fire siege?
Perhaps there we could find the elusive Cold Chain Lightning Ballistsa, that scales in damage based on targets hit?

Darlgon

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

I know you guys are rehearsing for ESO LIve, but.. any idea why this thread is no longer showing up in my "Recent" posts tracker? I keep having to come here off my comment above, then scroll down to find new posts.. some of them minutes ago.

When ya get a chance...

UltimaJoe777

Can you please consider a Siege Skill Line for Alliance War? It would be awesome if it were actually a skill and not just something you set up and do. Of course, it can be all Passives like Legerdemain is lol

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Done in 5 minutes. What a joke.

5 minutes? Slowpaws

maxjapank

jrkhan wrote: »

I think an across the board change for all defensive abilities that have them scale in cost relative to the number of targets hit would be useful. (Or, some form of debuff which causes that effect)

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

They are putting in the siege change first.
The other changes haven't been confirmed yet, certainly not for the next patch.

2nd, stop assuming that because other people disagree with you, that they are ignorant.

Going in a breach?

You can hit EVERY seige weapon that can be placed inside the inner keep capable of hitting the breach, without going inside.

Like I've said, I've played in situations (e.g. BWB in 1.4) where seige was very effective against organized groups where purge spamming wasn't a thing.

You know what? Defended keeps still got taken, and people found ways through choke points.

And it was fun.
There was a legitimate sense of accomplishment because of how difficult it was.

Does every post of yours need to be laden with personal attacks?

I don't think some have played BWB like you've described. I have. So I know exactly what you are talking about. That's why I'm not too worried about the proposed changes.

Satiar

maxjapank wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

I think an across the board change for all defensive abilities that have them scale in cost relative to the number of targets hit would be useful. (Or, some form of debuff which causes that effect)

Satiar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

Excellent.
Since purge won't remove the negative effects of siege, will rapid maneuvers work to removes things like snares?
Siege might be a little OP with un-purgeable snare. Need to test it first though.
Also, any new on forward camps?

Zheg wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Further discussion points about Meatbag going on:

We are currently discussing a -50% value on the healing taken debuff instead of -75% (which it currently is on Live), as well as reducing the duration to 6s from 16s, keeping it in line with the other siege sub-effects. We are still leaning towards keeping it unpurgable but with the values noted here.

There are also many points made here about Purge (the ability) which the combat team is noting as well, and we appreciate the constructive posts about Purge, Barrier, and smart heals along with the Siege chat!

What about the oil catapults? So much discussion has focused on the meatbags and them being unpurgeable, but honestly the oil catas are the dark horse. They will be so incredibly strong with snare and -5k stam per hit that it won't matter if meatbags last for 60 seconds and are unpurgeable, people will quickly realize the best way to wipe players is pepper them with multiple oil catas and just laugh as they can stand there unable to break cc and die. Does it really matter if your incoming healing is reduced when your healers all have zero stam and can't cast any heals to begin with because they're cc'd and rendered useless?

If defenders are raining catapults on a single breach, guess what?
The old meta of zerging through won't work. Time to open up a second breach. Plenty of people in a full raid to take down a wall quickly (w/ improved siege damage).

People are running out of stam?
-don't stand on the red circles
-use pots
-throw some shards
-use synergies to get back resources (bone shield, orb, altar, etc)

However, maybe 5k Stamina Drain might be too much but I'd like to test it out on Live first, and then have ZOS fix it the week after if neccessary.

ZOS rarely fixes things the week later, so we'll be stuck with anything that's broken for a while most likely. A single catapult fires pretty quickly, multiple catapults make it near impossible to not get hit at all, but using your pot with a long cooldown is supposed to be sufficient given what I just said, right. We could always use synergies and get back <5% of your 10-15k stamina pool as anything other than a stam build, that'll work, oh wait, you just got feared and don't have enough stamina to cc break and even use your pot - oh well.

And then you could always open up a second breach, except unless you're trying to take the inner, in which case you only have 3 possibilities, all far from eachother. Once you have the inner down, you could always not stand in red circles, but oh, you want to actually get a group inside a confined space and the armchair pvpers are telling you to spread out in a place where you can't actually spread out? What's that you're murmuring about? You want to take the flags? Well you aren't supposed to stand in the red circles silly, so you're just going to have to go take a dead keep instead, clearly.

The only broken changes were oil catas and meatbags. Meatbags at least can be somewhat dealt with pending the revise changes. Oil catas will end up being an utter cluster eff for all parties involved. 5k per hit with no cooldown is insane - I can't believe it was even proposed.

Damn dude are you going to QQ for everything?
Not all fights are going to be wins when you're in a zerg in the next meta....
Welcome to the world of skill where you're not always going to be immune to everything with 1 button... including a fear.

Second paragraph is just silly...
Once again if the inner wall breach is being rained down, dispatch your group to take down the other inner or the front door.
Your full raid is enough people to take out immobile siege operators.
Maneuver your way up the stairs, and around, maybe drop some oils on the flags. Plenty of ways to move a zerg inside the inner. Zerg stacking on a flag won't work anymore against a well defended keep and good riddance. You might have to zerg those siege operators since you're so scared of them.

This is what happens when players get used to the current zerg meta of stacking, purging, spamming 1 button, etc.

I just can't anymore.

The sheer ignorance about how a group works, how sieges work, how freaking basic things like AOE caps, damage and choke points work is simply staggering. I'm done explaining to people who don't actually care and have no interest in learning.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler As a long-time PvPer, who's done pretty much every kind of PvP in this game, I'd request these changes be introduced slowly. See what effects you get. Things like capped barriers and purges alone have HUGE impact on organized groups, much less things like removed AoE caps, dynamic ulti, etc--and that's not even getting into these siege changes that take advantage of and exploit the newly-created weaknesses. Taking all the changes you want to make and just dumping them in at once seems like a poor strategy to me, and currently looks like HUGE overkill without much problem solving added in as a side effect.

Can we maybe throw a pinch of salt in the stew before we just up and dump a whole cup in just because it's not salty enough? Just adding all this in as you've described seems like a disaster to me, and overkilling on changes again is going to be yet another huge hit to a game that simply cannot take many more big hits

They are putting in the siege change first.
The other changes haven't been confirmed yet, certainly not for the next patch.

2nd, stop assuming that because other people disagree with you, that they are ignorant.

Going in a breach?

You can hit EVERY seige weapon that can be placed inside the inner keep capable of hitting the breach, without going inside.

Like I've said, I've played in situations (e.g. BWB in 1.4) where seige was very effective against organized groups where purge spamming wasn't a thing.

You know what? Defended keeps still got taken, and people found ways through choke points.

And it was fun.
There was a legitimate sense of accomplishment because of how difficult it was.

Does every post of yours need to be laden with personal attacks?

I don't think some have played BWB like you've described. I have. So I know exactly what you are talking about. That's why I'm not too worried about the proposed changes.

I've done BWB in a group format, we used to do it as guild events in Havoc and VE.

Ludof

One more reason not to do PvP here and look for other games: really good job

UltimaJoe777

Ludof wrote: »

One more reason not to do PvP here and look for other games: really good job

If you came to this game looking for small-scale PvP only then wait about at least half a year absolute minimum lol

Artjuh90

i think the fact that siege is can't be remoed with purge is a good thing. you guys complain about zergs right? but if you can just stand still and spamm vigor and purge aren't you playing less skillful then any of the guys in the zerg?

Xiphyla

Artjuh90 wrote: »

i think the fact that siege is can't be remoed with purge is a good thing. you guys complain about zergs right? but if you can just stand still and spamm vigor and purge aren't you playing less skillful then any of the guys in the zerg?

Lol so zerg wont spam those skills ? Skill are there for people to use , they can spam all they like. Ok. Funny how people like you like to accomodate to zergs. Zergs dont even need to spam skill , 24 player (everyone of them use 1 or 2 skill on 1 guy , the enemies just gonna die fast right.)

MrBeatDown

Any chance we can get the siege equipment to work inside of IC districts. Would make for some good battles with a splash of monster aggro.

WRX

WRX wrote: »

This change is counter productive. It favors zerg surfers and mindlessly placing down siege and shooting it.

Its crazy to think that we are going to repeat the same mistakes that @ZOS_BrianWheeler and the PvP team fixed in the past. Remember when you couldnt counter oil cata's at all? Same basic idea with meat bags and WoE. We have already inadvertently gone down this path before in a very similar fashion.

The idea of siege draining resources is 100% ok with me, and cyrodiil does need an increase in damage. But making healings/snares unable to be purged is a very poor idea.

There are 2 possible ways I see this working:

1) Let our normal purge remove player effects and snares, and then reworking the guard skill into something similar to purge in order to counter the siege skills, and counter them effectively.

2) Purge only removes the effect from you and 3 allies in your group, however we would need to add a stamina version of purge. My recommendation, remove cleanse. I love cleanse, and its kept me alive many times. But it does favor large groups and when only purging 4 allies, wont be used that often.

What we really, really need is slight siege buffs that is still able to be countered, and removal of AoE caps.

I could discuss this forever, but have in the past wrote several pages regarding Cyrodiil and my honest opinion of how to balance it. Then gave it to Rich, Eric, and Gina during our meetings with them. Some things happened, most didn't. Regardless, I am sure most of what I have to say has already been said in the previous 700 posts, lets just hope our opinion for fair game play is heard.

Just gunna leave this here again for all you n00bs.

People saying no one has offered constructive advice, read better.

Only thing I would add, is making guard a buff and must be applied before being hit.

Let it go, before you grab TheBull by the horns. As proposed, these changes favor zerging because of how many people it will take to just get into the keep.

Winnamine

brb
Stocking up on siege.

Edit: for the whole guild

Tripwyr

Winnamine wrote: »

brb
Stocking up on siege.

Edit: for the whole guild

Lets play the who can siege most game, I have 24 players, how many do you have?

TheBull

edit- delete out of respect for the thread. I pvp in Cyrodiil.

WRX

Edited because ^

Essiaga

More tools for the zergs to use as siege is slow and easily over run by zergs. The Zerg will just punch a second or third or fourth hole in a keep. A small group will be more easily defeated by sieged. It will already take them a longer time to knock down the walls, kill the NPC and stand on the flag (which turns FASTER? the more people you have on).

@ZOS_BrianWheeler ... didn't you state on ESO live that due to siege and the distance it can to travel the area necessary to track calculations is increased by a whole lot? If siege didn't effect payers at all and only knocked down walls then you wouldn't have to calculate a larger area and therefore there would be less lag. Right?

Removing those skill that players were unlocking around the time of the Improved Lighting patch. Where they perhaps ALLIANCE SKILLS?