Upcoming siege changes in next major update

RinaldoGandolphi

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

I just wanted to stop by and give you another big thumbs up and thank you!!!! These changes to siege I and many others have wanted, this is going to finally make this game more fun when it comes to defense and attacks of objectives, it also is going to encourage a far more tactical Cyrodiil!

I only have two things:

1. The Healing Debuff must remain unpurgable. If its not it defeats the purpose, maybe reducing the percentage by say 10% or reducing the duration of the heal debuff by 2 seconds would be ok, but don't allow it to be purged, this is one of the core factors that currently allows these zerg blobs to not only survive siege fire but lag your server.

2. Elemental Expert currently reduces the Fire, Ice, and Lighting damage from siege. I don't think this should be. Siege afterall ignores your Armor and Spell Resistance anyways, and I don't think the Champ System should be reducing its damage as 100 points in Elemental Expert would reduce dmage from Fire,Ice and Lighting Siege by 25% and I can't think this is to be intended with these current changes.

Regardless, Thanks again Brian. I appreciate all you do and for talking to us the way you have

Galalin

You know have to retract my statement about @ZOS_BrianWheeler... although i do not agree with some of these changes he has been showing an intrest in these forums and PvP and the level of communication has steadily improved to the point he deserves some recognition... GOOD ON YOU BRIAN...now is there anyway we can get Mr.Wrobel fired and have you as his replacement? Or atleast his boss?

DK SCRUB OUT

Xeven

I do not fault Wrobel, generally. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. His job isn't easy or straight forward...

I think losing Sage was kind of a big deal. I feel like he had a good objective mind for balance overall and could have helped mold this combat system into something really outstanding.

Joy_Division

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@DeanTheCat Pretty close, but it's more due to the structure of the ability and how it needs to apply the initial tracking ability, then check the area for how many it multiplies the damage by, then applies the damage based on that calculation and final line of sight check to apply the damage. Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done.

Someone from ZoS is going to have to explain to me why it is that "Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done" would not not be the same as removing AoE caps and thus making every ability "just hits and area and does damage, and is done."

Manoekin

Still one of the funnier moments I've seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsgXwB_tVBs

Taonnor

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

In the most direct way to put it, after an LOS check is completed, damage according to the 6/24/30 rule is applied without further LOS checks because the server already knows who it's going to hit and all it needs to do at that point is sort out who to apply the rule to.

@Merlight that is pretty simple as @ZOS_BrianWheeler said. In my lag simulator from the thread "Myth AoE Cap" it is a simple if/else code part after knowing all targets to hit ->

if (hittedTargets > 6 && hittedTargets <= 30)
{
dmg = dmg / 2;
}
else if (hittedTargets > 30)
{
dmg = dmg / 4;
}
else
{
// Full dmg
}

LOS checks for example are much more complicate. To find the correct target to hit in all situations you need an algorithm that is a little bit more complicate and longer do calculate.


But i have a question @ZOS_BrianWheeler

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Magicka Det is built with several individual "lego blocks" that also do individual LOS checks for applying the initial cast, the multiplicative bonus for targets in the area, and lastly to apply the damage upon explosion.

Why are magicka det implemented like a "lego" pyramide? In my understanding the damage bonus of magicka det is similar to the falloff damage of the aoe cap. A simple multiplier to the damage if you know how much targets the det hits. So with my understanding the det is one skill and you only need one LOS check and one DMG calculation at the activation of the skill. As you said in following part:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

In the most direct way to put it, after an LOS check is completed, damage according to the 6/24/30 rule is applied without further LOS checks because the server already knows who it's going to hit and all it needs to do at that point is sort out who to apply the rule to.

Edit: I have added the source code file of the simulator logic. @Merlight with that code you can see a simple simulation to that problem. The logic does not represents ZOS code it is my interpretation of whats going on on the server.

Edit again: The forum does not let me add a ".cs" file. So best is you reverse engineer the code of the simulator with "http://ilspy.net/&quot; tool. The simulator is written in C# and is easy to decompile.

Sublime

Darlgon wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Not to keep bringing this off topic, but I wonder, if it would be possible to use the PTS to test AoE caps? Create two campaigns, one with, and one without. Or enable AoE caps for one week, and disable them the next? See how the performance goes.

Obviously this is @Wrobel department, so more of just a general question.

Possible? Probably.. However.. effective? No.. probably not. If you look at the PvP community vs the game players as a whole, its pretty small. And, to make them willing to put aside the characters they hand-crafted and are trying to progress and go play on PTS with autoleveled templates that makes everyone in Cyro gods? Extremely unlikely.

You severely underestimate the willingness of the community to help ZOS get this fixed. It's not asking people to give up their characters for a week. We can set aside a few hours to test it.

Yes, it's a very different server than what live uses, but it's the best benchmark test we can get.

No.. You over-estimate it.. by a LOT. After having tested the game builds on PTS for other major updates.. Cyrodiil is a wasteland, except for the guys hanging around BRK mill or wherever, dueling and yelling in zone chat to stop taking keeps because it ruins their balance of buffs. The only time we had huge participation was the "play with the devs stuff" which in turn lead to.. 10 minutes of playtime... and over an hour of server crashing. The official explanation? "Well.. the PTS is a smaller server, so it could not handle the load. We got some good data tho."

Do you remember the last time ZOS held an official PvP event on the PTS? The server crashed several times because of the huge amount of players that participated.

frozywozy

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@DeanTheCat Pretty close, but it's more due to the structure of the ability and how it needs to apply the initial tracking ability, then check the area for how many it multiplies the damage by, then applies the damage based on that calculation and final line of sight check to apply the damage. Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done.

Someone from ZoS is going to have to explain to me why it is that "Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done" would not not be the same as removing AoE caps and thus making every ability "just hits and area and does damage, and is done."

Because we don't want aoe abilities to hit through walls.

Joy_Division

frozywozy wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@DeanTheCat Pretty close, but it's more due to the structure of the ability and how it needs to apply the initial tracking ability, then check the area for how many it multiplies the damage by, then applies the damage based on that calculation and final line of sight check to apply the damage. Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done.

Someone from ZoS is going to have to explain to me why it is that "Siege at it stands now just hits and area and does damage, and is done" would not not be the same as removing AoE caps and thus making every ability "just hits and area and does damage, and is done."

Because we don't want aoe abilities to hit through walls.

So siege hits through walls?

Revolt_775

So nightblades dark cloak will no longer cleanse fire from balista?

Lava_Croft

Bring it on with more of this lovely technical information, @ZOS_BrianWheeler! Awesome!

jrkhan

@Taonnor
Agree. Something seems fishy about prox det multiplier requiring additional LOS checks.
Please optimize/refactor so it works more like 6/24/30 rule.
Edit - -
One way that makes sense:
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
When you find a target has been hit, there must be no guarantees that all the targets to be hit have yet been found (concurrency issues)
So, you assign damage to the first target, and increment a counter for how many have been hit so far by that ability.
For the 6/24/30 rule, you don't need the complete target list to modify the damage.

However for prox det, you do need to know if you've hit at least x targets before assigning damage to anyone.

If that's how things are setup, then someone must have worked around this by doing additional los checks ahead of time, to determine if 1 - 5+ targets have been hit, passing that result on to the damage calculation.

Can I further assume that you don't have a cache of los checks already performed that server frame?
Because if you did, then that lego block that calculates the magika det multiplier could cache the results (so no actual additional los checks would need to occur for resolving if those first 5 targets were hit)

Am I on the right track/making sense here?
Otherwise,
If you actually have the full target list when damage is assigned, multiplying damage by .5 or .25 should be the same as multiplying by 1.25 and the additional LOS checks are back to not making much sense.

frozywozy

Yesterday, I have seen the biggest TKO zerg I have ever seen training the chalman mile gate. There were at least 25 red circles of prox dets walking around mindlessly. It literally looked like one single guy multi boxing 40 characters. Everytime the 25+ prox dets would explode, my ping would skyrocket all the way up to 1200ms.

Well done AD zerg. Way to improve server performances and make it really enjoyable for everyone. It saddens me when I think about those 40 players all having a good time doing what they're doing. We definitely were not raised from the same parents.

Starshadw

frozywozy wrote: »

Yesterday, I have seen the biggest TKO zerg I have ever seen training the chalman mile gate. There were at least 25 red circles of prox dets walking around mindlessly. It literally looked like one single guy multi boxing 40 characters. Everytime the 25+ prox dets would explode, my ping would skyrocket all the way up to 1200ms.

Well done AD zerg. Way to improve server performances and make it really enjoyable for everyone. It saddens me when I think about those 40 players all having a good time doing what they're doing. We definitely were not raised from the same parents.

I see red and blue zergs with the same set-up all the time. It was an enormous blue zerg on TF last night. *shrug* It's not just one faction doing it, though I do sometimes wonder if it's the same players, just playing their characters on different factions. And yep, they cast and re-cast and re-cast and re-cast ad nauseum.

If more people would take the time to consider everyone's enjoyment in PvP instead of just their own, PvP would be a much more enjoyable experience overall.

PainfulFAFA

frozywozy wrote: »

Yesterday, I have seen the biggest TKO zerg I have ever seen training the chalman mile gate. There were at least 25 red circles of prox dets walking around mindlessly. It literally looked like one single guy multi boxing 40 characters. Everytime the 25+ prox dets would explode, my ping would skyrocket all the way up to 1200ms.

Well done AD zerg. Way to improve server performances and make it really enjoyable for everyone. It saddens me when I think about those 40 players all having a good time doing what they're doing. We definitely were not raised from the same parents.

/yawn

Tell that to your alliance who faction zergs keep to keep while turtling in the last emp keep.
But you know what, every faction zergs.

This game is play how you want NOT play however makes the game function.
If game cant take "massive battles' whose fault is it but the game developers.

Until the game functions the way its supposed to, I have no problems with players busting up the server.
Sends a message to the devs as well as players that, hey you know what if this game aint doing what its supposed to be doing, maybe its time for a complete overhaul or a new game.

Personally, Thiefs guild DLC will be my last and final chance at ESO.
If zergs are still capable of busting up the server it will be another 6 months before zos does anything significant.

no thx

BuggeX

http://postimg.org/image/chj55w3mb/

http://postimg.org/image/5ke7nd5m7/


@ZOS_BrianWheeler did you ever thought about nerfing the spamable aoes with 10m execute?

how is it even Logical that stealtornado does the same dmg like ambush and supriseattack?

i mean i die more in 1v1 to batswarm and stealtornado than to ambush and supriseattack....

Tower_Of_Shame

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
2. Elemental Expert currently reduces the Fire, Ice, and Lighting damage from siege. I don't think this should be. Siege afterall ignores your Armor and Spell Resistance anyways, and I don't think the Champ System should be reducing its damage as 100 points in Elemental Expert would reduce dmage from Fire,Ice and Lighting Siege by 25% and I can't think this is to be intended with these current changes.

Regardless, Thanks again Brian. I appreciate all you do and for talking to us the way you have

Those points have nothing to do with your resistance, it is a simple flat dmg reduction from fire, cold and lighting... Thus you take less dmg from those effects it doesnt matter if it's siege or a player spitting fire on you... Nothing to change here IMO.

Starshadw

BuggeX wrote: »

http://postimg.org/image/chj55w3mb/

http://postimg.org/image/5ke7nd5m7/


@ZOS_BrianWheeler did you ever thought about nerfing the spamable aoes with 10m execute?

how is it even Logical that stealtornado does the same dmg like ambush and supriseattack?

i mean i die more in 1v1 to batswarm and stealtornado than to ambush and supriseattack....

This is because ST is a great skill in PvE, to use in clearing trash in dungeons and trials. Here's where I have to point out again that truly, to fix some of the issues in PvP, they need to make skills work differently in the PvP environment. Sadly, I suspect they don't want to do the work involved with that, and so we'll simply see more and more skill nerfs, which of course end up affecting PvE as well.

PeggymoeXD

I approve.

Also, for the people QQ'ing about how this will destroy small groups as much as large groups, here's some advice.

Don't stand in the red circle

Changes like this will force zergs to space out and cause siege to be useful once again. Right now it's just something you waste AP on in hopes to actually fight the group that doesn't purge spam. But they do, they always do. So you've just wasted inventory space. I miss the days when it was possible to defend a keep effectively even while being outnumbered. I want to enjoy this game like I used to. The "whoever has the bigger zerg, wins" tactic is destroying Cyrodiil, and the only people who will argue me are the butthurt zerglings who are afraid they might actually have to pay more attention to their surroundings and not rely on their 20 purge spamming healers

Flawlless

Not going to go through this whole thread cause ain't nobody got time fo dat, so apologies if this was brought up already. Smaller groups have less people to sacrifice on sieging. Implementing this and bringing back camps is going to lead to those four hour long keep takes again where solos/pugs get farmed at the breach over and over, while the Zerg guilds can just heal/barrier through it. I would much rather have them remove AoE caps and bring dynamic ultimate regen to break up the zergs.

BuggeX

Flawlless wrote: »

Not going to go through this whole thread cause ain't nobody got time fo dat, so apologies if this was brought up already. Smaller groups have less people to sacrifice on sieging. Implementing this and bringing back camps is going to lead to those four hour long keep takes again where solos/pugs get farmed at the breach over and over, while the Zerg guilds can just heal/barrier through it. I would much rather have them remove AoE caps and bring dynamic ultimate regen to break up the zergs.

with the upcoming Change to siege, even a big ass Group will not be able enter a Keep that easy.
a well Group of 4--6 Player can shoot enought siege to the beach that anyone will meelt there.
remmember, slow and healreduce will be unpurgeable, Magicka and Stamina Drain implemented, more dmg to siege, faster shoot frequentzy.
the few Players who will make it throught would have Zero Ressource to even fight the NPCs

Cinbri

And most important part: make npc gaurds/menders, etc. four times stronger.

BuggeX

Cinbri wrote: »

And most important part: make npc gaurds/menders, etc. four times stronger.

i would say, increes the buff for keeps, so that Res dont give just 5 lvls but 20 lvl, lvl 20 should Need 24 hours and buff the existing npc x4 and give them even stronger Skills, like Radiant destruction, Stealtornado, Prox Det, Wrecking Blow, Camo Hunter, Meteor, Dawn Breaker...... oh wait to mutch.
Just buff them x4

ohh and pls remove the Skill Eclips from NPCs or fix it...........

Zheg

Well, I hope you're all happy. ZOS went giddy with a few of their more broken, OP siege changes and apparently started to implement them early. I have a meatbag debuff that can't be purged for at least 136 years. If this is not the case, and this is just the latest round of silly templar nerfs, my body was not ready.



Edit: hopefully people see that this is just an appropriately timed bug and not early siege change implementation

ZOS_BrianWheeler

We have not implemented any Siege changes yet.

Zheg

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have not implemented any Siege changes yet.

I thought the post was pretty obviously poking fun, but I'll edit the original if you think people will actually think they've been implemented

Manoekin

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have not implemented any Siege changes yet.

Templar nerf confirmed!

frozywozy

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Yesterday, I have seen the biggest TKO zerg I have ever seen training the chalman mile gate. There were at least 25 red circles of prox dets walking around mindlessly. It literally looked like one single guy multi boxing 40 characters. Everytime the 25+ prox dets would explode, my ping would skyrocket all the way up to 1200ms.

Well done AD zerg. Way to improve server performances and make it really enjoyable for everyone. It saddens me when I think about those 40 players all having a good time doing what they're doing. We definitely were not raised from the same parents.

/yawn

Tell that to your alliance who faction zergs keep to keep while turtling in the last emp keep.
But you know what, every faction zergs.

This game is play how you want NOT play however makes the game function.
If game cant take "massive battles' whose fault is it but the game developers.

Until the game functions the way its supposed to, I have no problems with players busting up the server.
Sends a message to the devs as well as players that, hey you know what if this game aint doing what its supposed to be doing, maybe its time for a complete overhaul or a new game.

Personally, Thiefs guild DLC will be my last and final chance at ESO.
If zergs are still capable of busting up the server it will be another 6 months before zos does anything significant.

no thx

I expressed myself incorrectly. Every faction zerg, don't get me wrong. I know EP has a really huge zerg sometimes at primetime too. Let me give you my own description of a zerg since there are so many different interpretations.

Zerg :

1) Considerable amount of players (more than 24) part or not of smaller groups following each other mindlessly without any communication through whispers, guild chats or VOIP clients.
2) Organized group of players (more than 24) following directions from a leader using VOIP clients.

The option #1 is the definition of what EP does on a regular basis.
The option #2 is what TKO does on a regular basis.

The option #2 creates alot more performance issues because the players in the said zerg use in a synchronized manner AOE abilities such as Steel Tornado, Impulse, Proximity Detonation, Healing Spring, Efficient purge. What I have seen that evening was 25 proximity detonations synchronized together and 40 players total spamming other Aoe abilities.

There is no way to describe the mentality and the poor behaviours of such players.

I only have one last thing to say : Siege changes are gonna be phenomenal.

bowmanz607

Flawlless wrote: »

Not going to go through this whole thread cause ain't nobody got time fo dat, so apologies if this was brought up already. Smaller groups have less people to sacrifice on sieging. Implementing this and bringing back camps is going to lead to those four hour long keep takes again where solos/pugs get farmed at the breach over and over, while the Zerg guilds can just heal/barrier through it. I would much rather have them remove AoE caps and bring dynamic ultimate regen to break up the zergs.

this is simply one change. You have to think this change is coming with a game rebalabce to stuff like purge and barrier making it harder for large groups to do what you stated. As far as this argument that keeps getting posted that larger groups have more numbers to put on siege....so what? Hello people the bottom line is no matter how balanced the game is, a group with larger numbers will always have more tools at their disposal. There are more of them. Get over it. That said, even when running in a small group a leader must know when it is more beneficially to lay a siege down for the betterment of the group. O hey i have 5 ppl in my group and that 20 man group is going to run through that choke point, but you know what since there is only 5 of us we need to fight 5v20. No! one person on siege in that situation is much better than none on siege. Hell, i run a solo a lot and when a zerg comes and i dont see other pugs in the are dropping seige, i drop siege. I am not even in a group, but i rely on others around me to fight while i am running seige. WHy? cause it is more beneficial for the fight.

Additionally, forward camps now have a cooldown and require you to be in the vacinity, so how does this make keep takes take forever. the issue in the past was that people would rush through the breach, die, respawn. Now it sounds like the breach will be outside the area in which you have to be to respawn at the camp. Therefore, dieing at the breach still results in running back.

Essiaga

Still don't understand why ZOS just doesn't remove Alliance skills and rework them and reintroduce in the future.

BTW, thanks Brian Wheeler for all your interaction with the community. Refreshing to see.