"No, We are not raising the VR cap before we remove them."

Enodoc

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

Also for a new player you're NOT at max level when you hit 50. You still need to grind to cp160 (i.e. v16) to be "Max Level"

That's another problem that proliferated with Veteran Ranks. They made everyone forget that the official max level and start of Endgame is Level 50 by introducing a second levelling curve through the endgame content. Progression through endgame shouldn't be vertical, that's why it's called "Level Cap". Endgame progression should be horizontal.

Enodoc

Docmandu wrote: »

If you want to put new gear in the game.. don't increase the spell damage / magicka / stamina / .. , just give them different effects.. something unique... or tie some unique skills to them.. ie. give people choices.. increasing gear caps just means everybody re-grinds for the zillionth time and we all run around in the same gear for the next 3 months until the next grind. Or until we get so sick and tired of the grinding that we move on.

This is how you do an endgame gear treadmill/grind -- not with raw power, but with new and interesting effects. This would mean every piece of gear from each Veteran tier (Calcinium/Galatite/Quicksilver/Voidstone/Rubedite) would remain viable for any Level 50 player due to its uniqueness, and wouldn't mean everyone ends up with Rubedite until the next one comes around just because it has more power. Instead, the next one has a new unique trait which some people will want to grind for while others will be happy staying with what they have.

wayfarerx

Enodoc wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

If you want to put new gear in the game.. don't increase the spell damage / magicka / stamina / .. , just give them different effects.. something unique... or tie some unique skills to them.. ie. give people choices.. increasing gear caps just means everybody re-grinds for the zillionth time and we all run around in the same gear for the next 3 months until the next grind. Or until we get so sick and tired of the grinding that we move on.

This is how you do an endgame gear treadmill/grind -- not with raw power, but with new and interesting effects. This would mean every piece of gear from each Veteran tier (Calcinium/Galatite/Quicksilver/Voidstone/Rubedite) would remain viable for any Level 50 player due to its uniqueness, and wouldn't mean everyone ends up with Rubedite until the next one comes around just because it has more power. Instead, the next one has a new unique trait which some people will want to grind for while others will be happy staying with what they have.

I think they have the right ideas to execute something like this when you look at things like the master weapons/maelstrom weapons. Imagine gear sets that buffed under-used skills like blood altar or soul trap. Horizontal gear progression would explode the number of viable builds that people use.

Imagine if you actually had to choose between masters weapons and maelstrom weapons as opposed to just "well one is v14 and one is v16 so, whelp, off to run vMSA!"

Gidorick

Enodoc wrote: »

Endgame progression should be horizontal.

What's that mean @Enodoc ?

Enodoc wrote: »

If you want to put new gear in the game.. don't increase the spell damage / magicka / stamina / .. , just give them different effects.. something unique... or tie some unique skills to them...

Oh... ok. Uhm... wait. What's THAT mean? unique skills and effects? So like... fire effect? Rainbow sprinkles? What's the point in new effects if they don't increase damage output?

RSram

IMO, I would change the Constellation to add new stars for the advanced gear and attribute points above level 50, so that anyone with enough CP can spend them on those stars if they want to retain to attributes or use the advance gear.

The problem with the proposed new system is how does a newbie make up for extra attribute points that a veteran player is given after the conversion? Moving the veteran attribute points into the Constellation puts everyone on an even playing field provided the player earns the CP to increase them; For example, in the Tower Constellation, you could have additional stars that allow you to increase your Health, Magic and Stamina attributes, and in the Lord Constellation you have stars for the armor and weapons levels. By doing it this way it forces a player to make decisions on how to spend CPs. As a veteran player I may have accumulated a large CP pool, but, I then must decide how to effectively spend those points: do I want to wear the best armor, have the best weapon, or do I want to more attribute points to boost my stats?

Finally, I do not think that CP's should be account wide in the new system because IMO each character should be treated unique person who forges their own path in ESO and not rely on the accomplishments of other characters in your account.

zornyan

Nafirian wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

Your putting effort into a system that just needs to be removed just so you can keep it instead of focusing on PVP Dont blame us when your game is rip in 5 months.

Maybe because it's you and the rest of the community that demanded the champion system in the first place, don't blame zos [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Enodoc

wayfarerx wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

If you want to put new gear in the game.. don't increase the spell damage / magicka / stamina / .. , just give them different effects.. something unique... or tie some unique skills to them.. ie. give people choices.. increasing gear caps just means everybody re-grinds for the zillionth time and we all run around in the same gear for the next 3 months until the next grind. Or until we get so sick and tired of the grinding that we move on.

This is how you do an endgame gear treadmill/grind -- not with raw power, but with new and interesting effects. This would mean every piece of gear from each Veteran tier (Calcinium/Galatite/Quicksilver/Voidstone/Rubedite) would remain viable for any Level 50 player due to its uniqueness, and wouldn't mean everyone ends up with Rubedite until the next one comes around just because it has more power. Instead, the next one has a new unique trait which some people will want to grind for while others will be happy staying with what they have.

I think they have the right ideas to execute something like this when you look at things like the master weapons/maelstrom weapons. Imagine gear sets that buffed under-used skills like blood altar or soul trap. Horizontal gear progression would explode the number of viable builds that people use.

Imagine if you actually had to choose between masters weapons and maelstrom weapons as opposed to just "well one is v14 and one is v16 so, whelp, off to run vMSA!"

Yeah, that's a good way to put it, and that would be a great way to bring meaning to the different crafting mats. Being the baseline mats for the gear, they would have a much more "wide reaching" effect than trait stones, and would complement set bonuses very well.

Gidorick wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Endgame progression should be horizontal.

What's that mean @Enodoc ?

@Gidorick It's essentially about more choice rather than more power. I think these explains it quite well: http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Enodoc wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

If you want to put new gear in the game.. don't increase the spell damage / magicka / stamina / .. , just give them different effects.. something unique... or tie some unique skills to them...

Oh... ok. Uhm... wait. What's THAT mean? unique skills and effects? So like... fire effect? Rainbow sprinkles? What's the point in new effects if they don't increase damage output?

[Fixed that quote, that was @Docmandu, not me]
Again, more choices for gear, not more power. Yes, fire effect could be one of them, since certain enemies are weak to fire, but perhaps it would cost you raw damage. Something else could be a marked increase in Weapon Power, but only at the cost of Spell Power, or Weapon Crit. Then you'd have to consider what Trait or Enchantment to use along with it; something like Sharpened, that also works towards increasing damage, or something like Precise, to counter the decrease in Crit?

On the other hand, if vertical POWER is the way they want to go, why does there need to be a CP requirement on it at all? Say rubedite remains the "most powerful"; why shouldn't someone with 1 CP be able to equip it, if they have put in the effort to get the required mats (either through paying for them directly, or paying a crafter for the gear, or successfully running the required difficult content)? There's no reason to restrict more powerful gear to characters with more CP; there's already an increased difficulty in getting rubedite over voidstone anyway. Isn't that sufficient? To restrict the powerful gear based on the difficulty of its attainment, rather than an arbitrary number?

BitterBanana94

"Why in the world are you trying to move VR requirements into CP requirements. That makes no sense.
As of today....drop all requirements of existing VR items to level 50.

Set a base because the skills, crafting are all based on a 1-50 scale.
Don't use CP as a requirement. Allow people to gear progress without being limited to also needing a post 50 leveling requirement."

This... Why in Zenithars name would you want to do this?
My annoyance here is that gear is locked behind champion rank... Why???

Couldn't everything just be scaled down? Where does the need come for this? "LFM DD 5000000000 CP+ pls"

ostrapz

@ZOS_RichLambert that explanation was pretty satisfying. Only question is with this change, would some lower level vet sets( kyne's flight for example) possibly be a viable option with this champ point requirement change?

GaldorP

Yep, thanks to Rich Lambert for explaining things a bit more in today's episode of ESOLive. Looking forward to what Eric Wrobel will present in the next one

Remdale

What is with these reactions? What in the world did people think would happen when VR was removed - that the game would just ditch having gear progression completely? I'm casual and don't like it either but that WOULD kill the game unfortunately. However instead of adding another layer to the game's progression they're using one that's already there and fully optimized to be the best it can be - you gain in it from doing almost everything in the game at a pace that feels good. Moreover this addresses the huge drain to level multiple characters in this game and makes doing it easy and fun after the first. Finally, CP's won't continue to be some unknown factor when facing someone, but the upfront acknowledgement of their power to replace Veteran Ranks.

I like it, ZoS!

Islyn

TequilaFire wrote: »

Incoming Max level 1000 CP characters in the Crown store.
Seems to be the way of things. smh
When the walls fall down...

It't not WoW. Cut the hyperbole.

Islyn

Gidorick wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Also
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3thlqh/welcome_to_the_elder_scrolls_online_orsinium_aua/cx69emf

There will also be gear scaling and gear will require you to have X champion points. Better items will require more champion points.

I can't wait for these forums to be ablaze when this happens. if CP were not shared by all characters this might make sense... but since they are this makes NO sense... so a player can level one character to max CP then level another character to level 50 and suddenly that character can use all the same gear?

What a way to ruin end game progression.

Of course. making end-game progression character wide does make the game more alt-friendly. Level one character to max CP... then just level other characters to level 50 and they are just as capable as your maxed character.

Whelp. We said No to removing VR for ages and there you go.

Also, there is a reason a lot of people cannot play their classes, grinding up a Templar and healing will not teach you how to do it well.

Dual.sphereeb17_ESO

kupacmac wrote: »

Dual.sphereeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree with this. There's absolutely no need for a VR system replace if all you'll do is a trade off.

Let the game be more open ended as it should've from the start .
As newblacksmurf said, this is a bloody mess waiting to happen. Ironically, the VR levels sound a lot 'cleaner' than this CP requirements.

Players have the intelligence ( if the game guides them from the start) to understand if they're failing @ an encounter to get better or get better gear.
One example? Anarchy Online . Yes, they have level locked gear, but almost -all- the gear isn't directly LEVEL locked.

Please Zeni, Don't trade one system for the other, if you're gonna do something as big as this, think a bit more than this

They aren't just trading one system for another, they are trading a temporary bandaid system that's a painful grind across all characters for a vastly improved system where all your characters share XP past level 50.

Vastly improved? Sorry mate, I really can't agree there.

It's one "thought" out system that didn't work for a Band aid, in my view.

But there's really no point now, is there? The system WILL be implemented as they are too far in to scrap it.

We will just have to adjust

ItsGlaive

Gidorick wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Endgame progression should be horizontal.

What's that mean @Enodoc ?

Enodoc wrote: »

If you want to put new gear in the game.. don't increase the spell damage / magicka / stamina / .. , just give them different effects.. something unique... or tie some unique skills to them...

Oh... ok. Uhm... wait. What's THAT mean? unique skills and effects? So like... fire effect? Rainbow sprinkles? What's the point in new effects if they don't increase damage output?

The point is for variety. without creating a mind-numbing number treadmill. I think here effects means set bonuses etc rather than 'rainbow sprinkles', but then I think you knew that anyway...

DirtYone

GaldorP wrote: »

Current System: You get your first character to VR 5, you'll have to gain the same amount of XP again to get your second character to VR 5.

New System: You get your first character to VR 5. As soon as your second character hits lv 50, that character is also VR 5. Just now it won't be called VR 5 anymore but Champion Rank xxx instead. You can play on any character that has reached level 50 to make all of your characters progress.

And if I'm not mistaken, any character will be able to equip the same gear again after the conversion that they can equip now.

I think this is a good change. But I guess some expected a more radical re-design of post lv 50 content.

If this is how they will change at the end -> I also AGREE to it! As right now, I would love to start alt. characters, but that tedious VR process...

Fuzzybrick

As long as it works in the end I don't care. But I hope this game doesn't become too gear driven. Wow, dcuo; hit end game then spend 50 billion hours grinding the gear just do do end game content. Which is why I quit those games.

Karoneth

I have been VR16 on my main character for a long time now. Locking top tier gear to the Veteran ranks was fair as it was not that difficult to obtain max VR on one character. However, with my work and home situation I no longer have much time to play. I only have about 120 CP's. Locking future gear upgrades to my CP's will only make it more difficult for folks like me who don't have a lot of time. While that won't make the game unplayable, it does seem to increase the gap between the casual players and the top ones and thus would have the opposite effect of the recently implemented CP cap, in my opinion.

So my question is, what is the goal of removing Veteran ranks? As it stands I'd rather they keep them in, system as it is now, and every so many DLC's increase VR cap by two levels, than to have to 'grind' for CP's just so I can wear the gear I get as a quest reward. I'm not very gear focused, but I still feel that the difficulty of reaching a 'level' where you can wear top gear should not be increased. So think about this, Rich.

Shadesofkin

Islyn wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Also
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3thlqh/welcome_to_the_elder_scrolls_online_orsinium_aua/cx69emf

There will also be gear scaling and gear will require you to have X champion points. Better items will require more champion points.

I can't wait for these forums to be ablaze when this happens. if CP were not shared by all characters this might make sense... but since they are this makes NO sense... so a player can level one character to max CP then level another character to level 50 and suddenly that character can use all the same gear?

What a way to ruin end game progression.

Of course. making end-game progression character wide does make the game more alt-friendly. Level one character to max CP... then just level other characters to level 50 and they are just as capable as your maxed character.

Whelp. We said No to removing VR for ages and there you go.

To be fair, just as many (more it seems) said "yes" to removing VR, and unlike the fairweather fans here who are suddenly panicking, I'm still convinced the game will be better served by their removal.

Elijah_Crow

Karoneth wrote: »

I have been VR16 on my main character for a long time now. Locking top tier gear to the Veteran ranks was fair as it was not that difficult to obtain max VR on one character. However, with my work and home situation I no longer have much time to play. I only have about 120 CP's. Locking future gear upgrades to my CP's will only make it more difficult for folks like me who don't have a lot of time. While that won't make the game unplayable, it does seem to increase the gap between the casual players and the top ones and thus would have the opposite effect of the recently implemented CP cap, in my opinion.

So my question is, what is the goal of removing Veteran ranks? As it stands I'd rather they keep them in, system as it is now, and every so many DLC's increase VR cap by two levels, than to have to 'grind' for CP's just so I can wear the gear I get as a quest reward. I'm not very gear focused, but I still feel that the difficulty of reaching a 'level' where you can wear top gear should not be increased. So think about this, Rich.

It takes so little XP with enlightenment to earn champion points at 120 CP currently and if the cap is ever raised it will require less. I hardly think even the most casual player would have any difficulty staying ahead of any gear cap.

Someone could do the math but I'm guessing you could play a couple hours one day a week and earn 4 to 6 CP in maybe 2 hours? My point is you have everything in place to keep up with hardly no effort.

DatNutrient

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

What if you have multiple V16s? Are the others levels not relevant?

DubyaRules

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)

Translation:

Customers who spent real world currency to purchase in-game experience scrolls and level up a second and/or third VR16 character are going to lose that for which they spent real world currency.

Visemere

can't wait for this!

wont be sad to see VR's go, they take too long to feel like you achieved anything, with the speed CP's go, you will atleast be easily progressing 2-3 cps a day and feel better about it.

Waseem

some months ago you were bugging forums for veteran ranks removal, now you are doing the opposite? i bet ZOS knows that you guys will be the first to quit after this change comes to life.. 1-3 weeks after you'll be gone.

terrordactyl1971

CP is a bit dull though isn't it? I can't get excited when I earn a CP as it's usually 0.1% to armor pentration or 0.3% improvement to spell cost etc.

Not exactly thrilling. I remember 1-50 being great with skill points and new skills to try. To be honest, the CP system is a bit dull and certainly not "fun". Hopefully we'll get skill and attrib points as well to spend on new skill like from the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood

Hateanthem

I have to say that I disliked the idea of veteran levels, but I dislike the CP system even more. I'm not a fan of CP locks you into a specific role.

To be halfway decent at tanking, healing, or dps you have to allocate your CP a specific way. If you decide to dps instead of tank, you have to not only swap gear (which is a terrible grind at cap, the worst of any game I've played actually), but you have to readjust your CP or you will not be competitive.you can always split your CP but then you are gimping yourself in both roles.

Making everything CP dependent is just wrong in my opinion. At least with the levels system you can periodically advance your character with the new content, but still be viable with switching roles. I'm not going to gimp myself by using a 2hander when I normally tank because CP allocation is going to overshadow game skill.

ZOS succumbed to the crowd that screamed and cried for constant character power progression, now most of the people who play console games have left, and us MMO players are stuck with an idiots version of character progression.

And what happens to our existeg gear if we aren't at CP cap when the change comes? I have yellow rubedite heavy, will I have to replace it yet again when I get to 501 CP? You can garauntee my sub will cancel if I have to grind out another armor set when I hit current cap.

Hateanthem

Sorry about two posts in a row, but I also want to mention that this change plays into the ability to currently earn CP past cap.

So next time CP cap is raised, not only will some players be at the next CP cap immediately, but they will have the availability to craft the new CP cap gear immediately.

So from day one you can potentially have maxed out players running around in your brand new DLC/expac. That's some crewed up game design.

Korah_Eaglecry

Never fails. When ever one group gets what it was they were asking for another suddenly begins to speak up hoping to tear it all down.

TheValkyn

Jitterbug wrote: »

TheValkyn wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Also
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3thlqh/welcome_to_the_elder_scrolls_online_orsinium_aua/cx69emf

There will also be gear scaling and gear will require you to have X champion points. Better items will require more champion points.

We've known this since Paul Sage said it in Summer of 2014...

paul sage said a lot of batsnip crazy snip

@Jitterbug Odd, the same stuff is being said now.

spoqster

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

Strange news. I was under the impression the veteran ranks would be removed to make the game less vertical. The big goal should be to reduce the grind and get people to max level
quicker.

With the CS being more vertical than initially anticipated and the introduction of CS requirements for gear, you're just replacing on vertical progression system with another.

Players need to be brought closer together. In a multiplayer game power and dps should come from player skill and tactics, not from level numbers.

Use gear and experience for horizontal progression, giving players more options while keeping them on the same numerical power level, instead of forcing them into treadmill.