"No, We are not raising the VR cap before we remove them."

hrothbern

Gidorick wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Also
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3thlqh/welcome_to_the_elder_scrolls_online_orsinium_aua/cx69emf

There will also be gear scaling and gear will require you to have X champion points. Better items will require more champion points.

I can't wait for these forums to be ablaze when this happens. if CP were not shared by all characters this might make sense... but since they are this makes NO sense... so a player can level one character to max CP then level another character to level 50 and suddenly that character can use all the same gear?

What a way to ruin end game progression.

Of course. making end-game progression character wide does make the game more alt-friendly. Level one character to max CP... then just level other characters to level 50 and they are just as capable as your maxed character.

@Gidorick,

I think that enabling any 50+ alt to have the full benefit of the account wide CP is a marvellous improvement .

Especially for players who do not have the private time to keep up a stable of "Vet 16" characters with different classes.
(Needing to rush their alts through mindless high performance grinding methods, just to keep them at max "Vet level".)

pronkg

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Won't this just create even more disparity between the have's and have-not's? If you have to have max CP's to get the best gear, you are simply punishing those with lower CP's. They put in the same amount of time to get to VR16 (or whatever the equivalent will be) but will not have access to the "best gear", as you say.

Please just leave the system the way it is -- Everyone who has put in the hours to reach VR16 has the same opportunity to acquire the best gear. CP's is really just like an extra bonus.

The thing people hate is The tedious farm on alts, not the initial way to V16. Since CP is account wide every level 50 char will be on par with your main. This will actually make me create new characters

SublimeSparo

@ZOS_RichLambert
ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)


Additional Details:

We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)


I don't understand this very well. I have a vr16 with approx 300CP
After conversion will I be L50 with
A ) 300CP still
B ) 10*16 + 40 = 200CP less
C ) 300 + (10*16 +40) 500CP more
D ) something else

Lylith

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just massively reduce the xp needed per veteran rank, whilst simultaneously unlocking the whole map after molag ball?
ie 100-250k xp per vr
this coupled with the cp catch up mechanic would be much more palatable

they did this once (massively) and then to a lesser degreee over the course of the game.

the orginal vr requirements, for v10, then v12, were quite brutal, numberwise.

zeni made a good decision when they moved away from that original grind.

hrothbern

So.....Veteran ranks are replaced with CP "ranks" to use the best armor.

What happens if your build relies on a Monster set?
=> Your Monster sets will outdate after every DLC or so
=> You have to grind every DLC to get the latest level Monster sets.

I think that paralel to this Vet removal, ZOS needs to increase the Monster set drop rate...

MrDerrikk

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I don't understand this very well. I have a vr16 with approx 300CP
After conversion will I be L50 with
A ) 300CP still
B ) 10*16 + 40 = 200CP less
C ) 300 + (10*16 +40) 500CP more
D ) something else

It's a bit confusing but you'll have your original CP plus what you gain from your VR16 char conversion.

ItsGlaive

Why do some mmo developers (and players for that matter) feel the need to measure progression through levels of any kind? By the sounds of it, CP will just be used in the same way as VR were to gate content. Not only that, but the power disparity between a newly minted lvl 50 and one at CP cap means that while the game may open up for them come reaching 50, they're still going to be completely uneffective vs someone at CP cap.

Do away with VR and hell, do away with CP too. Let the experience be the reward, exploring new zones, finding new stuff out in the world. And let player skill and experience at lvl 50 be the measure by which we judge progression.

The Uninvited

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

@ZOS_RichLambert : What will happen to players who have more CP right now? Will they lose them (probably not)?

SublimeSparo

MrDerrikk wrote: »

It's a bit confusing but you'll have your original CP plus what you gain from your VR16 char conversion.

So i would effectively be put at CP cap... awesome, but feels a bit unfair for people that actually put in work to get there,

Also anyone already at cap will effectively get 200 in the bank for when caps rise.
They will get a massive instant boost, in some cases with the ones they earn that are banked already will probably go straight to the new cap,

MrDerrikk

Xabien wrote: »

Why do some mmo developers (and players for that matter) feel the need to measure progression through levels of any kind? By the sounds of it, CP will just be used in the same way as VR were to gate content. Not only that, but the power disparity between a newly minted lvl 50 and one at CP cap means that while the game may open up for them come reaching 50, they're still going to be completely uneffective vs someone at CP cap.

Do away with VR and hell, do away with CP too. Let the experience be the reward, exploring new zones, finding new stuff out in the world. And let player skill and experience at lvl 50 be the measure by which we judge progression.

Sadly this does away with a lot of the player retention that leveling has. Every time they raise a level cap it gives you another large goal to work towards that isn't dependent on skill, as most people will leave frustrated if they get to a static max level and find out they don't have enough skill to beat the better players.

JMadFour

TequilaFire wrote: »

Because the people that want instant gratification seem to be winning.
So logical next step is instant max character.
I certainly am not a hater of this game, just lazy people.

so basically you are just pulling random stuff out of your ear to complain about.

ItsGlaive

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Why do some mmo developers (and players for that matter) feel the need to measure progression through levels of any kind? By the sounds of it, CP will just be used in the same way as VR were to gate content. Not only that, but the power disparity between a newly minted lvl 50 and one at CP cap means that while the game may open up for them come reaching 50, they're still going to be completely uneffective vs someone at CP cap.

Do away with VR and hell, do away with CP too. Let the experience be the reward, exploring new zones, finding new stuff out in the world. And let player skill and experience at lvl 50 be the measure by which we judge progression.

Sadly this does away with a lot of the player retention that leveling has. Every time they raise a level cap it gives you another large goal to work towards that isn't dependent on skill, as most people will leave frustrated if they get to a static max level and find out they don't have enough skill to beat the better players.

I see what you're saying, still, itd be nice to see. The goal then becomes completing 'X' or exploring 'Y' rather than collecting numbers.

MrDerrikk

Xabien wrote: »

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Why do some mmo developers (and players for that matter) feel the need to measure progression through levels of any kind? By the sounds of it, CP will just be used in the same way as VR were to gate content. Not only that, but the power disparity between a newly minted lvl 50 and one at CP cap means that while the game may open up for them come reaching 50, they're still going to be completely uneffective vs someone at CP cap.

Do away with VR and hell, do away with CP too. Let the experience be the reward, exploring new zones, finding new stuff out in the world. And let player skill and experience at lvl 50 be the measure by which we judge progression.

Sadly this does away with a lot of the player retention that leveling has. Every time they raise a level cap it gives you another large goal to work towards that isn't dependent on skill, as most people will leave frustrated if they get to a static max level and find out they don't have enough skill to beat the better players.

I see what you're saying, still, itd be nice to see. The goal then becomes completing 'X' or exploring 'Y' rather than collecting numbers.

I agree, but it's a necessary evil of MMO. I guess we just have to wait for the next single-player ES game then...

Vangy

I'm confused. So let's say I have 4 toons at v16. Will cp rain down on me when vr ranks are removed or did I level those toons for nothing?

pronkg

hrothbern wrote: »

So.....Veteran ranks are replaced with CP "ranks" to use the best armor.

What happens if your build relies on a Monster set?
=> Your Monster sets will outdate after every DLC or so
=> You have to grind every DLC to get the latest level Monster sets.

I think that paralel to this Vet removal, ZOS needs to increase the Monster set drop rate...

Do you seriously think they won't figure something out for that other than just increasing the drop rate drastically? Or is this your overly intelligent way of trying to gain them easier

Hexys

If they make challenging content scale on the average CP of the players doing this content, this can be great. It's easy as normal and veteran mode. But the gap between lvl 45 and v16 isn't so big then like 50 cp and 1500 cp.

But in the end, playing the game more and having more time should make you better then the players that don't. But what is fair? Some people do care about competition on the leaderboards or in PvP, but why should you have a problem that a new player is getting (example) 4x the enlightment bonus that you get? All they need is a really fast catch-up mechanic and with the amount of increased experience you need at this moment it's going in the good direction.

Nowadays you can't go to work all day and still want to be very competitive in a MMO with alot of progress, ESO isn't B2P. Accept that fact and find a group that suits you.

Rhazmuz

Please dont just replace VR with CP.

Right now I am continually holding out making my gear legendary as first I knew there would be more VR levels, meaning I would have to craft the same gear again, only slightly higher better due to higher VR. Then I started to wwait because I knew VR will be removed, and hopefully then it would make sense to make gear legendary, because it wouldnt be redundant due to level increase.

The only thing which should make me want to change/recraft gear should be more/new options, not simply because some number went up and I have to recraft the same stuff, only slightly better.

Just make CP which increase the power of gear...

Hexys

Rhazmuz wrote: »

Please dont just replace VR with CP.

Right now I am continually holding out making my gear legendary as first I knew there would be more VR levels, meaning I would have to craft the same gear again, only slightly higher better due to higher VR. Then I started to wwait because I knew VR will be removed, and hopefully then it would make sense to make gear legendary, because it wouldnt be redundant due to level increase.

The only thing which should make me want to change/recraft gear should be more/new options, not simply because some number went up and I have to recraft the same stuff, only slightly better.

Just make CP which increase the power of gear...

Maybe they can make gear scale and level up with you, like you gained 200 cp while using the same gear all the time giving the gear some extra bonus as reward.

Malmai

I told you guys dont wish for VR ranks to go away now same people who want it gnna cry about it...

Muizer

GaldorP wrote: »

Consider this though (also from today's AUA on reddit):

ZOS_eWrobel wrote:

There will also be gear scaling and gear will require you to have X champion points. Better items will require more champion points.

So there might still be new tiers of materials introduced in future updates.

There goes my sole reason for wanting to see VR gone.

Saumur11689

It looks good to me. Honestly nothing can be worse than VR, they make no sense at all, and crafting the same gear over and over again is just ridiculous.
Giving us sets that dont scale with VR is perfect, and as the other guy says they can give bonus to the set every * CP.

Aimora

Really loving the direction this is going if implemented correctly this will be great for the game

Bashev

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

@ZOS_RichLambert

I hope that this is not final and can be changed.

The more important part is that you shared this piece of information with us before it is implemented and hopefully we can have discussion and all of you (developer) can convinced us why this feature is required and will be successful for the game.

Grileenor

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I would just like to point a few things out.

1. The Champion Point System was designed to replace Veteran Ranks for end game continued progression. This was a change requested by a majority of the community shortly after launch. Running the Champion Point system concurrently with Veteran Ranks has always been temporary.


2. As you progress through the new post 50 system you will be able to equip more and more powerful gear just as you have through Veteran Rank system. (Would you like to level through the equivalent content to be VR16 wearing level 50 gear?) Tying gear level to your Champion Rank makes perfect sense just as it did tying it to your Veteran Level.


It seems like some people posting have no clue to the history or the planned direction in which ZOS is making headway.



To me it seems that 10 CP being equal to a VR Level is a bit small, and I personally would prefer to see that doubled. If max rank gear required 320 Champion Points to equip with the next DLC having about a 600 cap, it would make sense. However, that means you would have to bring all VR 16 players up to 320 Champion Points and that's just inflation. All things considered, I think the plan sounds great with 1VR=10CP


@ZOS_RichLambert please take note of the below.

I would however like to see the 1-50 leveling slowed a bit. I've heard of people being able to level from 1-50 in 48 hours. Do NOT go from one extreme to the other: From having a game that it takes more time than almost any other to get to Max Level, to the shortest time of any AAA MMO. Any character progression should be meaningful and because Champion Points are account bound.

And to that point, players have been allowed to use Champion Points on new characters to allow them to power through content. This sped things up and made it bearable for such a long ride to level cap. This should be removed. Champion Points should only be spendable on Level 50 Characters.

This will ensure challenge and enjoyment in leveling alts and when the character hits 50 they then can be just as powerful as someone's original character. This also takes care of the use of Champion Points in under NonVet Cyrodiil campaigns.

Thanks for following through with what has been promised for a long time.

Very good points. Total agreement. Perhaps ZOS is able to find a solution to make exceptional gear scale with CP rather than crafting it over and over again. @ZOS_RichLambert make it possible at some point of the CP race to craft some mythical stuff, which stays true to the character for the rest of its journey. Might be some optional stuff entering the game via a DLC or two.

I am looking forward to this change of the system anyway.

Turelus

I'm with others on this one that you shouldn't be removing VR levels just to replace them with the same thing but in smaller chunks.

Keep the Champion System as a bonus max level reward don't convert it into the new level system. I'm tired of gear chasing and changes only because the gear I want to use caps out at level 27, or VR5 and will never be as strong as the max level sets.

Please @ZOS_RichLambert consider capping leveling at 50 (for now) and making all gear available at that level, then focus on balance passes and alterations each month to shake up the meta rather than these arbitrary "This gear is better because it's higher level" can we return the vision of players playing their own way with an overwhelming choice of options rather than you (ZOS) setting the best gear for us and pigeon holing us into using specific sets because the numbers are better.

I am tired of grinding levels/experience/materials just to play PvP or daily PvE content. I want to be able to try new builds and theory craft with the masses of gear options, not use the current best set that expansion has released. Expansions need to build on options, not be the only option.

Sorry if this is a little ranty but reading that CP will become the new VR in terms of gear levels and requirements is just sad to hear.

Elijah_Crow

Turelus wrote: »

I'm with others on this one that you shouldn't be removing VR levels just to replace them with the same thing but in smaller chunks.

Keep the Champion System as a bonus max level reward don't convert it into the new level system. I'm tired of gear chasing and changes only because the gear I want to use caps out at level 27, or VR5 and will never be as strong as the max level sets.

Please @ZOS_RichLambert consider capping leveling at 50 (for now) and making all gear available at that level, then focus on balance passes and alterations each month to shake up the meta rather than these arbitrary "This gear is better because it's higher level" can we return the vision of players playing their own way with an overwhelming choice of options rather than you (ZOS) setting the best gear for us and pigeon holing us into using specific sets because the numbers are better.

I am tired of grinding levels/experience/materials just to play PvP or daily PvE content. I want to be able to try new builds and theory craft with the masses of gear options, not use the current best set that expansion has released. Expansions need to build on options, not be the only option.

Sorry if this is a little ranty but reading that CP will become the new VR in terms of gear levels and requirements is just sad to hear.

You do understand that the Champion Point system was devised shortly after PC launch as a replacement of the Veteran Rank system don't you? That this change has been in the works for almost 16 months or longer??? One of the core purposes of the old and new system was to allow for gear progression over time. This has never changed.

Turelus

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I'm with others on this one that you shouldn't be removing VR levels just to replace them with the same thing but in smaller chunks.

Keep the Champion System as a bonus max level reward don't convert it into the new level system. I'm tired of gear chasing and changes only because the gear I want to use caps out at level 27, or VR5 and will never be as strong as the max level sets.

Please @ZOS_RichLambert consider capping leveling at 50 (for now) and making all gear available at that level, then focus on balance passes and alterations each month to shake up the meta rather than these arbitrary "This gear is better because it's higher level" can we return the vision of players playing their own way with an overwhelming choice of options rather than you (ZOS) setting the best gear for us and pigeon holing us into using specific sets because the numbers are better.

I am tired of grinding levels/experience/materials just to play PvP or daily PvE content. I want to be able to try new builds and theory craft with the masses of gear options, not use the current best set that expansion has released. Expansions need to build on options, not be the only option.

Sorry if this is a little ranty but reading that CP will become the new VR in terms of gear levels and requirements is just sad to hear.

You do understand that the Champion Point system was devised shortly after PC launch as a replacement of the Veteran Rank system don't you? That this change has been in the works for almost 16 months or longer???

This doesn't stop the announced ideas being a horrible transition which changes nothing (IMO ofc.)

Elijah_Crow

The plan since July 2014.

37 min and 37 seconds- can't get the start time to work.



https://youtu.be/_Jk7LrLgRfg?t=37m37s

Xsorus

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Geemarc wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I would however like to see the 1-50 leveling slowed a bit. I've heard of people being able to level from 1-50 in 48 hours. Do NOT go from one extreme to the other: From having a game that it takes more time than almost any other to get to Max Level, to the shortest time of any AAA MMO. Any character progression should be meaningful and because Champion Points are account bound.

And to that point, players have been allowed to use Champion Points on new characters to allow them to power through content. This sped things up and made it bearable for such a long ride to level cap. This should be removed. Champion Points should only be spendable on Level 50 Characters.

This will ensure challenge and enjoyment in leveling alts and when the character hits 50 they then can be just as powerful as someone's original character. This also takes care of the use of Champion Points in under NonVet Cyrodiil campaigns.

Thanks for following through with what has been promised for a long time.

You can level from 1-50 in 8 hours, quicker if you have a geared friend kill stuff with you in IC.

They might as well just give everyone max level alts when you hit 50 with this new system.

This needs to be addressed. I'm not saying make it a time sink. I'm saying it should be significant and meaningful.

Only it shouldn't be; Plenty of other content and growth available after 50, and honestly every MMO should learn you want to make Alts easier to make..More alts players can make the longer they play your game.

obscure7

This sounds immensely complicated on several levels. From player progression to character progression to account progression. From content design to item design to skill design to overall game design. etc.

I'll take the next exit on this topic and leave it to the experts and those more opinionated. I will simply say as long as it is cohesive, follows a strong design philosophy, and - most importantly - the game remains fun to play, then go ahead and do it, whatever it may be.