"No, We are not raising the VR cap before we remove them."

Sheezabeast

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

NewBlacksmurf

In length... @ZOS_RichLambert

Leave the 1-50 as is because that part of the game is so important for a new gamer and it's also the base of how a character is developed

VR stuff....
VR levels on a character....just remove them literally.
VR levels on NPC's to eliminate confusion, show these as numeric levels so a VR16 would not be 66 nor should they be CP160 or CP anything.

VR1- VR5 NPCs would be represented as level 50 and bosses [ 51 ] and dungeon or elite bosses [ 51]
VR 6-VR10 is 52 , [ 53] and [ 53]
VR11-VR15 is 54, [ 55] and [55]
VR16 is 56, [56] and [56]

The logic here is because your base is still 50 and anything within 5 levels gives good exp and is solo able. This allows the game to simplify a noob to a veteran understanding and keep the grey, yellow orange red logic

Now VR16, as its only 6 levels above 50 and at this point all player have enough CP's to overcome the 5+ level variances.

VR1-VR16 gear and item progression:
This follows as today each zone which becomes a little harder has new mats every so often that hat offer higher base stats


Seasonal Gear:
Instead of tying a CP to requirements use the base of 50
NOW you can use CP to multiply the effectiveness of any base skill, gear stat so instead of using CP as a requirement it can be used as a multiplayer and you'd only need to mess with either adding more mats or another multiplier

That's a simple....now I'm not ZOS and I'm sure you guys have it all figured out....but this is just my point of view

Gidorick

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Won't this just create even more disparity between the have's and have-not's?

Not necessarily. With the catch up system it will basically create a sort of horizontal progression system rather than a typical vertical one. By the end of each "season" ie; the time between when the CP caps are raised, if you're playing the game with any regularity you should have caught up to the minimum CP to equip certain gear. In the meantime the gear you're using will still be suitable to do any content out there. If the future of progression for this game is going to be anything like the current track record; old set bonuses will still be perfectly viable, but new ones open up new builds and possibilities.

The fact that he said, "The best gear", is what concerns me..

If the CP cap is raised in conjunction with new DLC's (which I assume is what will happen) and the best gear is locked behind the purchase of such a DLC, the gap between players will only continue to grow.

Not entirely. Players could still earn XP though grinding in the original content and PVP, right?

Hiero_Glyph

@ZOS_RichLambert

For attribute points, please do not attach them to CP. Instead just provide an additional attribute point at specific milestones. So every 5th level (5, 15, 25, 35, 45) you would gain an additional attribute point, and every 10th level (10, 20, 30, 40, 50) you get an additional 2 attribute points. This would total 64 since level 50 is the same as vet rank 1.

Gidorick

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert

For attribute points, please do not attach them to CP. Instead just provide an additional attribute point at specific milestones. So every 5th level (5, 15, 25, 35, 45) you would gain an additional attribute point, and every 10th level (10, 20, 30, 40, 50) you get an additional 2 attribute points. This would total 64 since level 50 is the same as vet rank 1.

Yea, if they're not doing level conversion this is the best way to do it. Otherwise players with a bundle of CPs will just a bundle of skill and attribute points once they hit level 50 on a new character... which is kind of silly.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517

Gidorick wrote: »

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Won't this just create even more disparity between the have's and have-not's?

Not necessarily. With the catch up system it will basically create a sort of horizontal progression system rather than a typical vertical one. By the end of each "season" ie; the time between when the CP caps are raised, if you're playing the game with any regularity you should have caught up to the minimum CP to equip certain gear. In the meantime the gear you're using will still be suitable to do any content out there. If the future of progression for this game is going to be anything like the current track record; old set bonuses will still be perfectly viable, but new ones open up new builds and possibilities.

The fact that he said, "The best gear", is what concerns me..

If the CP cap is raised in conjunction with new DLC's (which I assume is what will happen) and the best gear is locked behind the purchase of such a DLC, the gap between players will only continue to grow.

Not entirely. Players could still earn XP though grinding in the original content and PVP, right?

Yes, but say for example, there's content such as the White-Gold Tower in a purchasable DLC that drops ONLY BoP gear for people with over (x) amount of CP's.

The gap will just keep on growing..

icontested

.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

You didn't word this right. You can tell you lack the confidence to decide what's right for YOUR game by deciding it on YOUR own while being also being open to ideas.

Ariisen

I don't like this new system...

The only problem I see with VR is that it takes waaay to much to get a alt from VR1 to VR16 (1-50 is okay).
A simpler solution IMHO would be:

Create a Level 1 Alt.
Complete the first five zones\Defeat Molag Bal
(Progression locked at level 50 if you don't)
You then get to VR1 and can access the other faction zones.

Have you completed Cadwell's Silver once?
Jump to VR5, get all skyshards and overall progress already done on the max level character.
Have you completed Cadwell's Gold once?
Jump to VR10, get all skyshards and overall progress already done on the max level character.

This would allow people who want to stop levelling their characters for whatever reason to stop before VR and would also give a proper reward for Cadwell's quests (now it's ridiculus..) while reducing the amount of time necessary to fully level an alt (and the amount of people complaining about it).

The new system might be okay but is it worth the work at all?

Gidorick

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Won't this just create even more disparity between the have's and have-not's?

Not necessarily. With the catch up system it will basically create a sort of horizontal progression system rather than a typical vertical one. By the end of each "season" ie; the time between when the CP caps are raised, if you're playing the game with any regularity you should have caught up to the minimum CP to equip certain gear. In the meantime the gear you're using will still be suitable to do any content out there. If the future of progression for this game is going to be anything like the current track record; old set bonuses will still be perfectly viable, but new ones open up new builds and possibilities.

The fact that he said, "The best gear", is what concerns me..

If the CP cap is raised in conjunction with new DLC's (which I assume is what will happen) and the best gear is locked behind the purchase of such a DLC, the gap between players will only continue to grow.

Not entirely. Players could still earn XP though grinding in the original content and PVP, right?

Yes, but say for example, there's content such as the White-Gold Tower in a purchasable DLC that drops ONLY BoP gear for people with over (x) amount of CP's.

The gap will just keep on growing..

well, the seasonal gear might be presented in a way that the current DLCs gear is BoP while that is the current DLC. When the new DLC comes out maybe that gear will be craftable so crafters can make it to sell it to anyone.

MisterBigglesworth

So in the last year you've successfully managed to change the label on Levels 51-150

Old label: VR1 - VR16

New Label: CP ranks 1 - 160

.... yay?

Personofsecrets

This worries me.

MisterBigglesworth

Personofsecrets wrote: »

This worries me.

They don't learn anything, they just make the same mistakes but it's labeled differently, hoping you won't notice. It's basically a shell game.

kevlarto_ESO

I am going to have to see what the final product is, on the surface this sounds like a whole new can of worms, but maybe it will be better than it seems.

Geemarc

This is the worst idea I've read in a long time. Removing veteran levels (which don't need removing) and replacing it with CP requirements on gear. I don't think I've seen anyone ask for that, either just remove them or keep them.

If this is the system you plan to implement please take a very, VERY long time developing it, as I do not want to see this in game..

GreenSoup2HoT

If CP restriction's on gear get's implemented im quitting this game.


So you place a CP cap to dial down the im-balance between player's who grind all day every day. Which was a good thing.

However requiring high cp to wear gear.... that's worse then Veteran Level's increasing for god's sake. I don't play this game often. I'm a console player and i have around 200 champion point's. I'm far from the CP cap. I don't plan on grinding PVE mob's to wear the new "best gear" that has been CP restricted, let alone even consider wasting my time grinding cp.

Zos..... common now.

The only way i can see this being acceptable in any shape or form would be to have daily's that grant some new type of currency. Call this new currency "Allegiance Point's". Let this have nothing to do with Champion Point's. Once a week you get a quest of some sort to collect X point's. These new set's will require these point's TO PURCHASE. Not required to wear them! Then player's could easily purchase these item's from guild trader's if they are like myself and don't have the time to play. However you need to actually sell different gear that you know.... cost's gold? Gear that is not far off from gear you can find/craft. This game need's a better economy. So many better option's then this... Hell you could sell the gear for million's of AP and make them BoE.


Area's in which you could distribute new gear:

-Public Dungeon's
-World Bosses
-Craglorn ( what's a craglorn boss for anyway )
-Trail's (which need to be fixed!)
-Undaunted (need's a currency system)
-Alliance Point's in Cryodil
-Telvar Stone's in Imperial City
-Maelstrom Arena (need's betting system)

However you need a good mix of gear that is BoE and equally powerful to any BoP set's.

Also why are we always fighting RNG? Add in a currency so we can buy the item's we want with a select few trait's. If you wan't a specific trait, you should be able to use a certain currency to improve your chance's on acquiring a specific item (wear applicable).

So many thing's in this MMO that are just terrible.

I KNOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE 100'S OF UNDAUNTED PLEDGE'S AND STILL HAVE NOT GOTTEN A SINGLE HELMET!


Fix your drop table's.

Create new way's to acquire relevant gear.

PLEASE DO NOT CREATE NEW WAY'S TO RESTRICT CASUAL/NEWER PLAYER'S



For the people that think this is a good thing, every time the cp cap is increased there will be better gear and you will need to farm cp to wear it. That's pretty much the equivalent of having gear locked to your war alliance rank. So for people like me who only have maybe 4 hour's a week on eso, ill always be playing catch up with this CP restriction/Cap to wear whats new.

At this rate, i'd rather have increasing vet level's then grind to maintain high cp to be competitive.

GaldorP

I think the VR to CP conversion is a good solution for the problem of how to get rid of veteran ranks without making existing content irrelevant and without turning ESO into a completely different game (which it would be with tiered endgame dungeons à la WoW).

- All gear of non top VR materials would still have its use for new players who just reached lv 50 on their first character. So Calcinium, Galatite, Quicksilver, Voidsteel, Kresh Fiber, Ironthread, Silverweave, Void Cloth,Topgrain Hide, Iron Hide, Superb Hide, Shadowhide, Sanded Birch, Ash, Mahogany, and Nightwood don't need to be removed from the game.

- Previous VR items can keep their difference in stats. The alternative would be that VR 1 and VR 16 items suddenly have the same stats. Since many players already had to replace all their gear every time the VR cap was raised, it would be a bit silly if the VR 16 version of an item would now suddenly become just as strong as the VR 10 version of the same item.

- The new system basically makes Veteran Ranks account-wide. Players will be able to access the same post lv 50 content with all their characters which allows them to skip the "veteran rank grind" on their second and third character which is exactly what many people have asked for on these forums.

The main problem I see with the new system is the power gap between Champion Rank 1 and Champion Rank 501 characters. If they are supposed to do the same dungeons and fight each other in PvP there needs to be either some kind of battle leveling and dungeon-scaling depending on the characters' Champion Rank, or the difference in stats between former VR 1 and former VR 16 gear needs to be a lot smaller than it is now. I guess some instances will have a Champion Rank requirement then just as some dungeons now have a VR requirement (so yes, it's mainly the labels that would change, Champion Ranks instead of Veteran Ranks, with the main difference being that Champion Ranks are account-wide while Veteran Ranks aren't).

newtinmpls

Additional Details: •We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)

***


So those peeps with multiple low-vet-level characters are going to get screwed

MrGrimey

Wasn't the whole point of CPs to remove vet ranks? I'm looking forward to see what the future holds... Sounds interesting

dday3six

People wanted VR removed. Looks like they didn't imaged that the system to replace it would be just another grind to extent the game's life.

FizzOnly

tbh i really like this change.Maybe its not to bad for new players either,because of the cp catch up system.Time will tell.
Current VR System is a pain in the a**,maybe this will fix it.
Would be interesting to know how many CP you will need for dropped Sets and how it affects crafted gear(Max lvl crafted but maybe you can increase the stats with a new option adjusted to you CP level?)
Anyway im glad to see ZoS listens,even its a new sort of grind.

GaldorP

Current System: You get your first character to VR 5, you'll have to gain the same amount of XP again to get your second character to VR 5.

New System: You get your first character to VR 5. As soon as your second character hits lv 50, that character is also VR 5. Just now it won't be called VR 5 anymore but Champion Rank xxx instead. You can play on any character that has reached level 50 to make all of your characters progress.

And if I'm not mistaken, any character will be able to equip the same gear again after the conversion that they can equip now.

I think this is a good change. But I guess some expected a more radical re-design of post lv 50 content.

Elijah_Crow

I would just like to point a few things out.

1. The Champion Point System was designed to replace Veteran Ranks for end game continued progression. This was a change requested by a majority of the community shortly after launch. Running the Champion Point system concurrently with Veteran Ranks has always been temporary.


2. As you progress through the new post 50 system you will be able to equip more and more powerful gear just as you have through Veteran Rank system. (Would you like to level through the equivalent content to be VR16 wearing level 50 gear?) Tying gear level to your Champion Rank makes perfect sense just as it did tying it to your Veteran Level.


It seems like some people posting have no clue to the history or the planned direction in which ZOS is making headway.



To me it seems that 10 CP being equal to a VR Level is a bit small, and I personally would prefer to see that doubled. If max rank gear required 320 Champion Points to equip with the next DLC having about a 600 cap, it would make sense. However, that means you would have to bring all VR 16 players up to 320 Champion Points and that's just inflation. All things considered, I think the plan sounds great with 1VR=10CP


@ZOS_RichLambert please take note of the below.

I would however like to see the 1-50 leveling slowed a bit. I've heard of people being able to level from 1-50 in 48 hours. Do NOT go from one extreme to the other: From having a game that it takes more time than almost any other to get to Max Level, to the shortest time of any AAA MMO. Any character progression should be meaningful and because Champion Points are account bound.

And to that point, players have been allowed to use Champion Points on new characters to allow them to power through content. This sped things up and made it bearable for such a long ride to level cap. This should be removed. Champion Points should only be spendable on Level 50 Characters.

This will ensure challenge and enjoyment in leveling alts and when the character hits 50 they then can be just as powerful as someone's original character. This also takes care of the use of Champion Points in under NonVet Cyrodiil campaigns.

Thanks for following through with what has been promised for a long time.

Personofsecrets

Is this what we get for not wanting to recraft rhe same gear every time there is a level increase?

Geemarc

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I would however like to see the 1-50 leveling slowed a bit. I've heard of people being able to level from 1-50 in 48 hours. Do NOT go from one extreme to the other: From having a game that it takes more time than almost any other to get to Max Level, to the shortest time of any AAA MMO. Any character progression should be meaningful and because Champion Points are account bound.

And to that point, players have been allowed to use Champion Points on new characters to allow them to power through content. This sped things up and made it bearable for such a long ride to level cap. This should be removed. Champion Points should only be spendable on Level 50 Characters.

This will ensure challenge and enjoyment in leveling alts and when the character hits 50 they then can be just as powerful as someone's original character. This also takes care of the use of Champion Points in under NonVet Cyrodiil campaigns.

Thanks for following through with what has been promised for a long time.

You can level from 1-50 in 8 hours, quicker if you have a geared friend kill stuff with you in IC.

They might as well just give everyone max level alts when you hit 50 with this new system.

Elijah_Crow

Geemarc wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I would however like to see the 1-50 leveling slowed a bit. I've heard of people being able to level from 1-50 in 48 hours. Do NOT go from one extreme to the other: From having a game that it takes more time than almost any other to get to Max Level, to the shortest time of any AAA MMO. Any character progression should be meaningful and because Champion Points are account bound.

And to that point, players have been allowed to use Champion Points on new characters to allow them to power through content. This sped things up and made it bearable for such a long ride to level cap. This should be removed. Champion Points should only be spendable on Level 50 Characters.

This will ensure challenge and enjoyment in leveling alts and when the character hits 50 they then can be just as powerful as someone's original character. This also takes care of the use of Champion Points in under NonVet Cyrodiil campaigns.

Thanks for following through with what has been promised for a long time.

You can level from 1-50 in 8 hours, quicker if you have a geared friend kill stuff with you in IC.

They might as well just give everyone max level alts when you hit 50 with this new system.

This needs to be addressed. I'm not saying make it a time sink. I'm saying it should be significant and meaningful.

SublimeSparo

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just massively reduce the xp needed per veteran rank, whilst simultaneously unlocking the whole map after molag ball?
ie 100-250k xp per vr
this coupled with the cp catch up mechanic would be much more palatable

Digielf

But what about the skill points and attribute points that we get from veteran ranks 1-16

Scyantific

Alucardo wrote: »

Not sure what to say. I just hope they take their time and get it done right. I imagine there's a lot to think about instead of just changing a few numbers around.
To be honest, the whole VR thing never really bothered me too much.. only when they raised it obviously. Gaining ranks now is easier than ever. Sure it still takes a bit of time, but it should.

This implies that Zenimax has the capability to take their time and implement something correctly the first time.

Hiero_Glyph

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Geemarc wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I would however like to see the 1-50 leveling slowed a bit. I've heard of people being able to level from 1-50 in 48 hours. Do NOT go from one extreme to the other: From having a game that it takes more time than almost any other to get to Max Level, to the shortest time of any AAA MMO. Any character progression should be meaningful and because Champion Points are account bound.

And to that point, players have been allowed to use Champion Points on new characters to allow them to power through content. This sped things up and made it bearable for such a long ride to level cap. This should be removed. Champion Points should only be spendable on Level 50 Characters.

This will ensure challenge and enjoyment in leveling alts and when the character hits 50 they then can be just as powerful as someone's original character. This also takes care of the use of Champion Points in under NonVet Cyrodiil campaigns.

Thanks for following through with what has been promised for a long time.

You can level from 1-50 in 8 hours, quicker if you have a geared friend kill stuff with you in IC.

They might as well just give everyone max level alts when you hit 50 with this new system.

This needs to be addressed. I'm not saying make it a time sink. I'm saying it should be significant and meaningful.

Why? It doesn't account for skill points or having to level guilds, etc. There is still plenty of grind left to do after you hit 50.

Elijah_Crow

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Geemarc wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I would however like to see the 1-50 leveling slowed a bit. I've heard of people being able to level from 1-50 in 48 hours. Do NOT go from one extreme to the other: From having a game that it takes more time than almost any other to get to Max Level, to the shortest time of any AAA MMO. Any character progression should be meaningful and because Champion Points are account bound.

And to that point, players have been allowed to use Champion Points on new characters to allow them to power through content. This sped things up and made it bearable for such a long ride to level cap. This should be removed. Champion Points should only be spendable on Level 50 Characters.

This will ensure challenge and enjoyment in leveling alts and when the character hits 50 they then can be just as powerful as someone's original character. This also takes care of the use of Champion Points in under NonVet Cyrodiil campaigns.

Thanks for following through with what has been promised for a long time.

You can level from 1-50 in 8 hours, quicker if you have a geared friend kill stuff with you in IC.

They might as well just give everyone max level alts when you hit 50 with this new system.

This needs to be addressed. I'm not saying make it a time sink. I'm saying it should be significant and meaningful.

Why? It doesn't account for skill points or having to level guilds, etc. There is still plenty of grind left to do after you hit 50.

Player retention. If you have put some effort into something...even in a video game, it has more value to you. I could care less about a game it took me two days to master. It's the games I'm invested in that matter.