[Patch Notes] Champion Point cap will be set at 501

pmn100b16_ESO

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

The chance that a 501+ CP player quits this this game because of the cap is about the same as a heroin addict going clean. If you leave the game it wasn't because they capped your CP. Either you got the monkey off your back or you got drunk and angry one night and deleted all your toons. Crying won't bring those toons back. Customer support might though.

It would be nice to see some of these anti-cap/pro-CPers have the back bone to actually quit the game, but I know I'll still be seeing them in pvp. Some of these hardcore pvpers have really surprised me by admitting they prefer their CP advantage to a level playing field after all.

Gilliamtherogue

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

Thank you for coming out and giving at least a few words to ease our minds. While I'm still quite skeptical that the average is that low, all we can really do is trust you. It would be really awesome if you would be able to show us some actual numbers so we could see for ourselves, but I don't know if that'd be breaking any privacy rules or whatnot. Is there any way you'd be able to see what the average is for paying customers though? For example, a paying customer could be either an account that has had at least one month of ESO+ time in the past quarter, or has made a crown store purchase in the same time frame. It'd be interesting to see if the people paying for the longevity of this game were higher than just the base.

maxjapank

monkeymystic wrote: »

Cap is simply too low almost one year after CP patch launced for PC players.

They are giving longterm players the middle finger, and will 100% guaranteed lose lots of subs and longtimers over this if it goes live.

Huge fail in other words, and my guild is already talking about other mmos after orsinum AKA "SLEEP MODE PATCH" launches to send all their subs and longtimers away from their game.

No. They won't lose lots of subs over this. If they thought they were, then they would never consider this change.

BalticBlues

Could the cap be lower on consoles, please?

On consoles, the game is only 4 months old and the average player has only 50 CPs.
All 500 CP players on consoles are PC veterans, breaking the game balance.

On PC, the average player has 100 CPs and the cap is 500 (100x5)
Accordingly, on console the average player has 50 CP, so please make the cap 250 (50x5)

LordSemaj

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

@xaraan

So... that just poked a thousand holes in your theory...


In this thread, ZOS confirms that casuals make up the MMO market and hardcore endgamers are only in the top 2%. NOT NEWS! We've known this since EQ and WoW posted the SAME INFORMATION!

The vast majority of players will never even see all of the end game and barely any players will complete it. This applies to every MMO and has for decades.

eliisra

I do support a CP cap and a catch a system. Yet, it sucks that I'm getting punished for logging in-game every day since release of Tamriel Unlimited and using up all my enlightenment. Enlightenment given to me by ZoS own system, now they take it back.

I could have rage quit the game, fleed to another MMO, like 90% of my f-list. But because I choose to stay loyal, keep logging in-game and using my daily enlightenment I'm closing in on 500 CP, will for sure be over cap when Orsinium comes out. I wont have any characters progression for months, because of their enlightenment. It's kind of absurd, when I think about it.

But sacrifices needs to be done when trying to achieve a more balanced game. I'm not happy about how low the cap is, but I can deal with it.

Sensesfail13

@ZOS_RichLambert I am curious how you came by these numbers, I dont disagree with the console numbers in any way shape or form, I dont play console. However, I do disagree with the PC numbers. What are you taking these numbers from to come to a median of 93 for PC players? Literally 90% of my guildmates throughout my 4 active guilds have 300 or more and we know this by asking constantly because this farce of everybody with "2000 champion points" goes around a lot in game. We arent even the "elite" of the bunch most of our players are rather casual and for us to be at 3-400 champion points kind of denotes that much of the community that plays on PC is actually much higher of a median than 93. And yet again we come back to asking the question: Why are you punishing people for playing and accel'ing in your game?
Im not talking about the cap, I agree with a cap. I just believe it should be higher. 801 as a cap would give what I have seen and heard as the median in game from actual players (which you at ZoS seem to be very out of touch with) something to work towards. Leaving experience gained as it is and raising the "catch-up" experience for beginners to where the first 250 or so are rather easier to achieve than they have been. Giving a nice boost to those just beginning, something to play the game for to players that are casual/interested in the gd game, and throwing a bone to those players that have worked their asses off for their characters over these past few months.
And before any allegations are thrown about "Im one of the ones with very high CP" Im middling with regular playtimes and no grinding I have around 400. Thats with a life, if people want to spend most of theirs on here getting CP then they shouldnt be nerfed into the ground by ZoS although 1500+ is a little excessive to have for those that have ground out that many.

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

I think 600 would be more appropriate. 501 seems a little low. While I recognise a cap is necessary, I still think you need something to work towards. Such a low cap doesn't provide this... Particularly given that they are introducing a catch up mechanic.

600 would be reasonable.

I was at 580 before IC launch and all I did was pvp in small grp. If this goes live all progression is taken from me for months. I might just quit.

Let alone that sorc needs 600cp just to max dmg where stam only needs 300... This is Bulls*t

Look at it another way.. the only reason you were winning fights, might have been because you have 580 CP, while the majority has apparently around 93 on PC... well that and sorc ofcourse...

talk about easy mode, sorc + 490 more CP !

Well i´ve started with 70CP like everyone at the beginning and earned those CP in pvp. I´ve played in a grp of 3 most of the time. So what´s your point exactly? It´s not like i started with a magical CP advantage and beat other players bc of that...

Also i don´t believe zos number of 94 for pc by one bit. If they count every account maybe bc they have tenthousands of inactive accountes sitting at ~70 cp from when the system got introduced.
I´d really like to know the average CP for PC for accounts with atleast 1 v14 that was played for atleast one hour per week in the last month.

I dunno, mate.

PvP and stat progression are 2 beasts that do not fit well together. We discussed about stuff like this ages ago and i recall you agreeing in slightly different context, that PvP should be skill based. A newb with super strong skillz (you know, there`s other pvp games, good mechanics are good mechanics, no matter the game) should always be able to compete with a vet who is just not as good.

I remember you not wanting the CP system, because of the imbalances it creates. You don`t need that advantage, no good PvPer needs it. Do you seriously play now for your CP progression?

I mean, didn`t we all play perfectly fine for one year without CP? Or should we all have been quitting because our "work" wasn`t properly rewarded with CP according to our XP earned? I would have to cry and complain every day when applying that logic. But why complaining about something that is "taken away" from you that was never healthy anyways?

Small example from my POV:

After a lengthy break I had vacation and played last week hardcore (8h/day). No dedicated CP grinding, just catching up in gear and some pvp through solo play (thanks for the sponsoring btw). I made 30-40 CP in 8 days. Let`s say 5/day.

So, fulltime playing with my favored style of play (lots of solo pvp) would net me 150 CP a month. But I have a job.

Realistically I won`t get more than 1 enlightened CP during weekdays and around 6 mixed CPs over the course of the weekend. That`s around 30-40 CP a month. Call me a newb, but I would almost need another year just to get to 500 CP when playing everyday as much as I can due to work.

Why no sympathy for the guys who lack behind anyways? I mean PvP needs no Cp, it`s pretty much the opposite. PvP needs to get rid of that unbalanced monster.

Still lots of love @Derra

Just to add: I don´t want 1.5 or any prior patch back. It was utterly boring and the most time i spent ingame was picking flowers because the game was lacking any meaningful progression goals. I still have flowers banked from that time...

Well i can just give the example of DAoC again. The realm rank system had extreme advantages for players with high ranks over lower ranked players while also being nearly impossible to reach the cap (i think the first player to reach RR13 was about 6 years after release of the game - 10l10 the prior cap was increased pretty quick after release).

Why was DAoC not as imbalanced as ESO with the CP system is? Because it had a non linear progression where the last 10 ranks needed almost double the RP required for the 120 ranks prior to that combined (also realm abilities of higher levels increased in cost).
Addet to that you were able to unlock most neccecary abilities by about rank 60 to 70 which took about 3% of the xp required for the XP to get rank 130. It took some time but everyone was able to get there and at that point your character was entirely competetive.

I personally came to enjoy the champion system now as it finally offers meaningful longterm progression for my character that eso has been lacking for the first year after it´s release.
However i thought and still think the championsystem is badly designed and creates huge imbalances. I just would approach this entirely different than the ZOS team.
Their approach is wrong in my opinion because they take away any incentive for "hardcore" players like me and most of the people i play with to play their game and give them money.

What would i do?

1: Create actual diminishing returns on all perks. The progression past 25 to 30 points is far to liniar and thus rewarding for high CP players. 25 points should yield atleast 50% of the final bonus of a perk.
2: Create an XP curve that makes grinding past a certain point highly undesireable or outright stupid by the time it takes to get a CP compared to the possible benefit. XP from there on should increase drastically to make grinders unable to gain any cp advantage to casual play (eg: grinding 2 hours straight gives you the one cp the person with lower cp makes in 15 minutes).
3: Cap the maximum CP at 1200 so it is no longer theoretically possible to max out everything. Make reaching 600cp require about 5% of the XP the cap of 1200 requires.
4: Adjust CPs already in the game to the newly added XP curve. People with low CP gain some ppl with high CP loose some or even plenty.

I think this would overall be healthier for the game as it would not take away from longterm progression goals most hardcore players have without leaving the low CP players in the dust.
We would have a more even playing field than we currently have with slight advantages for players with heavy time investments (i think this is desireable - if you don´t reward players for playing they most likely wont play) but without creating the major imbalances the game currently has.


Yes the system is unbalanced. I still like it. I would try to fix it without caps. Sadly this approach is much more time intensive and therefor zos will implement a cap which will result in most hardcore players dropping the game because there is ONCE AGAIN nothing to be done.

Yuke

I still dont get it. Im far away from being a 24/7 player. I actually did my B.Sc. thesis and doing my M. Sc. thesis in the time ESO is out and i got 630 CPs without setting a foot into CWC - ever.

Only thing i did was leveling up the other 3 classes, which cant be considered grinding only for CPs.

I dont understand where an average of 97 comes from. It blows my mind and imho ZoS should really calculate this again.

I started with 70 CPs when CP-tree came out, its just *** impossible to only have 97 now...

daemonios

eliisra wrote: »

I wont have any characters progression for months, because of their enlightenment. It's kind of absurd, when I think about it.

That is exactly where the problem lies, IMHO. If character progression is a simple function of time spent playing and is left uncapped, there will never be any catching up for new players or even current players who don't have as much time or don't play as efficiently from a grinding perspective. ESO makes this particularly relevant given the competitive nature of some parts of the game - trials and PvP for instance, but also vet content speed runs.

This will ultimately kill the game, as old players who leave for any number of reasons aren't replaced by new players. It's not about punishing people who farmed more CP. It's about keeping the game healthy overall. That some players only play to grind CP at all is a whole different problem, which also needs addressing.

A smarter move would have been to have a "ladder" approach to character progression. Institute a level cap. Players reach the cap and spend a few months there (of course this requires content that can otherwise keep players interested). Then add new content and cap. Rinse and repeat.

silky_soft

This is still going... Haha. They going to change lorkhans tears to cp farmers tears soon.

SoulAffliction

Avalon wrote: »

People that hate the CP system are upset because there are people who have this game as their main source of entertainment, and thus spend way more hours than the rest... They have thousands of CP, and rightfully should... If someone practices piano as much as those people play ESO, they'd be another Beethoven... They earned what they have, let them have it. If we don't have that kind of time, then oh well...

Personally, I wonder why they don't just make CP character specific, instead of account wide. Would solve a great number of issues.

That last statement is IMHO the best recommendation for a solution to the CP issue.

LordSemaj

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert I am curious how you came by these numbers, I dont disagree with the console numbers in any way shape or form, I dont play console. However, I do disagree with the PC numbers. What are you taking these numbers from to come to a median of 93 for PC players? Literally 90% of my guildmates throughout my 4 active guilds have 300 or more and we know this by asking constantly because this farce of everybody with "2000 champion points" goes around a lot in game. We arent even the "elite" of the bunch most of our players are rather casual and for us to be at 3-400 champion points kind of denotes that much of the community that plays on PC is actually much higher of a median than 93. And yet again we come back to asking the question: Why are you punishing people for playing and accel'ing in your game?
Im not talking about the cap, I agree with a cap. I just believe it should be higher. 801 as a cap would give what I have seen and heard as the median in game from actual players (which you at ZoS seem to be very out of touch with) something to work towards. Leaving experience gained as it is and raising the "catch-up" experience for beginners to where the first 250 or so are rather easier to achieve than they have been. Giving a nice boost to those just beginning, something to play the game for to players that are casual/interested in the gd game, and throwing a bone to those players that have worked their asses off for their characters over these past few months.
And before any allegations are thrown about "Im one of the ones with very high CP" Im middling with regular playtimes and no grinding I have around 400. Thats with a life, if people want to spend most of theirs on here getting CP then they shouldnt be nerfed into the ground by ZoS although 1500+ is a little excessive to have for those that have ground out that many.

@Sensesfail13 He already explained where he pulled the numbers from. Active (within 30 days) accounts with at least one VR1 character (able to gain CP). So the numbers are quite accurate. Your friends all number among the hardcore crowd likely because you wouldn't group with casuals, possibly even perceiving them as weak or bad players if you did. Bear in mind that regular playtimes are still more than casual playtimes. Playing the game every day or several times a week is more playtime than those who play only on Saturday will ever see. There's far more of those players who have lives to attend to and very little free time than there are the regulars you see in guild chat. You'll more easily know the players you see on a repeating basis in short timeframes but haven't you met randoms in the world you've never even heard of? Those are where the averages are coming from.

Derra

silky_soft wrote: »

This is still going... Haha. They going to change lorkhans tears to cp farmers tears soon.

Thats the problem. I just played the game. Just as my friends did. Yet we get punished.

Sublime

There's one thing I don't get: why do players want rewards? Isn't the playing as such the purpose?

ScruffyWhiskers

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I'm still in the Depression stage over the 50% reduction in damage in Cyrodiil.

Hey, you, monkey! Can you try moving over to the left side? My right shoulder is killing me!

pmn100b16_ESO

Sublime wrote: »

There's one thing I don't get: why do players want rewards? Isn't the playing as such the purpose?

Apparently not, some people are even suggesting all the new content in Orsinium isn't worth playing because they won't be earning a +1 champ point everyday in the process!

Priorities wrong

Mettaricana

On ps4 I'm at the 400's marker

TalonShina

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

There's one thing I don't get: why do players want rewards? Isn't the playing as such the purpose?

Apparently not, some people are even suggesting all the new content in Orsinium isn't worth playing because they won't be earning a +1 champ point everyday in the process!

Priorities wrong

LOL must agree with you. I wasn't for a cap, but I am not against it either. I got excited just reading the new DLC stuff coming. If I am at the cap and still having fun in arena and other game aspects great i'll bank the CP if I am not having then there a problem. Not being able to spend CP wouldn't deter me from playing since you still EARN it

Darkstorne

Derra wrote: »

Their approach is wrong in my opinion because they take away any incentive for "hardcore" players like me and most of the people i play with to play their game and give them money.

Eh..? You've got a brand new expansion coming out. A whole new location to explore. Two new massive public dungeons. New crafting styles. An arena aimed specifically at hardcore players to compete for rare and powerful weapons as rewards. And a new trial on the way. And you're saying that CP is the only reward and sense of progression you get? You sound like a CP addict

DiktaHasi

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

Thanks for these numbers but could you please post the median instead of average? Cause, u know, median is way more robust to outliers (high and low ones) and would give a better picture of an average players CP instead of the average CP over all players...
sry math guy speaking here

Derra

Darkstorne wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Their approach is wrong in my opinion because they take away any incentive for "hardcore" players like me and most of the people i play with to play their game and give them money.

Eh..? You've got a brand new expansion coming out. A whole new location to explore. Two new massive public dungeons. New crafting styles. An arena aimed specifically at hardcore players to compete for rare and powerful weapons as rewards. And a new trial on the way. And you're saying that CP is the only reward and sense of progression you get? You sound like a CP addict

I´m a pvp player mainly so yeah. CP are my only sense of progression in this game currently.

Desommettor

monkeymystic wrote: »

Cap is simply too low almost one year after CP patch launced for PC players.

They are giving longterm players the middle finger, and will 100% guaranteed lose lots of subs and longtimers over this if it goes live.

Huge fail in other words, and my guild is already talking about other mmos after orsinum AKA "SLEEP MODE PATCH" launches to send all their subs and longtimers away from their game.

I agree entirely with the cap and believe it was much needed.

An MMO that prides itself on awesome large scale PVP can't sustain a broken system like infinite CP that gives a ridiculous stat advantage. Especially on an MMO that launched under the name as the first skill based MMO. All other similar games have a level cap and that's all she wrote.

Why?

because its fair; because people who join in even a year after you have already been playing can catch up and challenge you. its the way a MMO works. The MM in MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer not Massive You. if you are unable to outperform other players without a huge stat advantage gained through mindless grinding and abusing a broken system than I guess you don't have the skill necessary to pull it off and need to refine your approach and become a better player.

We have all known that the CP cap was coming if not doing away with the champion system all together and honestly I think a 500 cap is being generous.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Derra wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

This is still going... Haha. They going to change lorkhans tears to cp farmers tears soon.

Thats the problem. I just played the game. Just as my friends did. Yet we get punished.

Don't blame it on ZOS. Blame it on the obsessive hardcore grinders and the "elite players" who destroyed the whole balance by reaching 1K+ CP.
If everyone was between 100 and 400 CP I'm not sure it would be that much of an issue.
There are always some idiots who proudly drive at 100mph and that's why there are speed limits for everyone.

Darkstorne

Derra wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Their approach is wrong in my opinion because they take away any incentive for "hardcore" players like me and most of the people i play with to play their game and give them money.

Eh..? You've got a brand new expansion coming out. A whole new location to explore. Two new massive public dungeons. New crafting styles. An arena aimed specifically at hardcore players to compete for rare and powerful weapons as rewards. And a new trial on the way. And you're saying that CP is the only reward and sense of progression you get? You sound like a CP addict

I´m a pvp player mainly so yeah. CP are my only sense of progression in this game currently.

I love PVP too I wouldn't say a CP cap is the issue with PVP rewards though. I'd say the lack of PVP rewards is the issue with PVP rewards.

Mashille

Too low? What? I have 200

xaraan

LordSemaj wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

@xaraan

So... that just poked a thousand holes in your theory...


In this thread, ZOS confirms that casuals make up the MMO market and hardcore endgamers are only in the top 2%. NOT NEWS! We've known this since EQ and WoW posted the SAME INFORMATION!

The vast majority of players will never even see all of the end game and barely any players will complete it. This applies to every MMO and has for decades.

No, actually the theory specifically mentions a player that has done just that if you actually read my posts. He has a sub, he's played within the last 30 days, and he's played a total of a two times since TU launched to see if the game improved and left again. I know about half a dozen guys in the same boat as well. He has like 75 CP and fits in this criteria.

Edit: not to mention the fact that if a player has played since TU launch and has less than 100 cp the mechanic isn't for them anyhow. They will never catch up, they won't earn 400 cp in the next few months before the cap goes up again if it took them 7 months to get 100. The cap/catch up mechanic is for those players (or should be) that play consistently and perhaps took a break or can't play quite as much and will actually catch up - those guys are in the 200-300s range. You can very easily be over the 501 cap right now without grinding, by just playing the game (and still having a life and taking days off, etc) which to me means it's too low (how do I know - b/c I got my points by just playing the game).

And, since everyone loves overlooking details... most of us are not saying no cap, we are saying 600 or 700 something would be better b/c it gives room to grow. Those guys in the range I just mentioned will very easily hit cap and have no where to go for months. This 501 cap isn't coming for a month and then will be around for probably a bit after that until the next content patch.

slumber_sandb16_ESO

Good. Means CP points will be used with more thought and to add to builds rather than just filling up everything to max.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

Wow, I have to admit that I would have never believed it, that the average CP levels were really that low. I play every day for a large period of time (4-6 hrs at times, and I have a full-time job, teach martial arts part time and have family time) and do admit that I did grind and use xp potions and scrolls at times, because many other friends in game told me they were doing the same and they have even way more free time than I do. ESO is currently the only game I have continually played for such a large amount of time, I never stopped playing from early access when ESO was just ESO and not ESO TU. I usually play the game to wind down from work and personal life and actually enjoy PvE grinding and PvP.

I have as of today 480 CP,

"Hello, this ones name is Kotaro.. this one is a Skooma, oh wait... a CP addict.." ESO playerbase says..."Hello Kotaro...."

I had always guessed that the average cp overall was around 400+ and I really wanted to be on equal footing if not better, so I worked hard to become real competitive.

I wanted to thank you for the information on the overall CP levels of players in the game, as it is quite insightful, I guess when Orsinium arrives (with enlightenment I will most likely be above the CP cap of 501) I will try to work on other things, most likely increasing my gold in game amongst other things in game and try to fill the time until the next DLC.

Tyr

monkeymystic wrote: »

Cap is simply too low almost one year after CP patch launced for PC players.

They are giving longterm players the middle finger, and will 100% guaranteed lose lots of subs and longtimers over this if it goes live.

Huge fail in other words, and my guild is already talking about other mmos after orsinum AKA "SLEEP MODE PATCH" launches to send all their subs and longtimers away from their game.

Ridiculous. The 500Cp Cap will affect less than .1% of their player base. a few hundred players at most out of the hundreds of thousands active.