The Death of the Dragonknight- updated 3/15/16

Jules

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

nothing2591 wrote: »

i dont understand all you cry babies... dual wield magicka dk is stronger than ever, noone is using nirn so petrify -> shooting star is a guaranteed kill about half the time, BUT i guess you would need 600cp like this pro player right here And you dont go tank and kill stuff solo its as simple as that , glass cannon or go home.

Ok, I can understand that the OP was a long text and thus hard to understand. Let me comprehend quickly what the problems with DKs atm are that we complain about.

Jules wrote: »

1. LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY:
2. NO RANGE:
3. LACK OF DAMAGE:

You even describe the problem yourself: Either go glass cannon or go home. But the question is how does a class without any way to disengage a fight survive as glass cannon? Sorcs can stay on distance with Streak and quickly burst opponents down. Nightblades can use cloak to reposition and go offensive again when there is a good opportunity. DKs suffer a LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY: but need to go into melee range to use their dots because they have NO RANGE:. Moreover except their dots they have no damage so against everyone who knows how to counter dot damage (cloak, purge, cp into thick-skinned, etc) DKs have a LACK OF DAMAGE:.

Of course Dk is still playable but its not on the same level as other classes.

Agree, but also, its ok for them to be full melee class, but they have to benefit from it then. Like haveing the major defile debuff as a class skill, or other buffs/debuffs as a class skill. Not being force to slot 1h and shield for the buffs/debuffs.. If they have that, I have no problem with lack of mobility as a DK. But they need advantage in other ways then.. There should be a scary thing to jump into a DK melee, right now, its not.

Agreed, its not simply the lack of mobility that kills the class, its the lack of mobility working in tandem with the lack of tankiness.

Teargrants wrote: »

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO wrote: »

Don't let this thread die like the Dragonknights have.

Maybe this thread should just use GDB...oh wait.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I cant play how I want to play ZOS. Magicka DK is ruined and this patch is forcing me to go stam. It's ruining my immershion.

Pft, DK immershuns was ruined the day they made it so I couldn't "Press 'E' to talk to" Standards. Srsly, wtfbbq ZOS?? #biggestnerfever

Ew kirsi changed his icon?
Not feeling it.
Makes you look fat.

Joy_Division

Docmandu wrote: »

One thing to be careful of is that we as players usually develop tunnel vision.. while I'm not trying to refute the OP's claim, but if you take something like GDB, everybody claims it's useless.. but everybody only looks at the heal it gives in PvP.

And while I'm mostly a PvP player myself, I do realize that ZOS looks at the total picture (when they're not nerfing the next spell by using a darts board to pick the new effect :P ).

If you take GDB, it probably still works perfectly fine in PvE. Also it does much more than just the heal, which we all use it for. ie. "Also grants Major Fortitude and Major Endurance, increasing Health and Stamina Regeneration by 20% for 20 seconds." -- and yes I know you can get that from a potion, but that means you put your potion use on a re-use timer. The skill also has an impact on your character via the passives a DK has:

- Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic Power ability is active.
- Increases Health recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

In other words.. the heal is just 1 part of the benefits of the skill.

It's like all the NBs that only look at Cloak and don't count the passives that interact with cloak to make it even stronger.


All that said, are DKs in a good spot?! Don't know, only have a level 49 one, so I'll refrain from commenting on the actual issues with the class.

So, what you are basically telling us is that if we don't use a potion and don't slot a Draconic Power ability (*cough* cough* Reflective Scales), DKs will receive some minor passive benefits from slotting and using a GDB terrible heal in a game where a player can only slot 5 skills on an action bar. DKs OP. Nerf please.

Huckdabuck

Jules wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

nothing2591 wrote: »

i dont understand all you cry babies... dual wield magicka dk is stronger than ever, noone is using nirn so petrify -> shooting star is a guaranteed kill about half the time, BUT i guess you would need 600cp like this pro player right here And you dont go tank and kill stuff solo its as simple as that , glass cannon or go home.

Ok, I can understand that the OP was a long text and thus hard to understand. Let me comprehend quickly what the problems with DKs atm are that we complain about.

Jules wrote: »

1. LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY:
2. NO RANGE:
3. LACK OF DAMAGE:

You even describe the problem yourself: Either go glass cannon or go home. But the question is how does a class without any way to disengage a fight survive as glass cannon? Sorcs can stay on distance with Streak and quickly burst opponents down. Nightblades can use cloak to reposition and go offensive again when there is a good opportunity. DKs suffer a LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY: but need to go into melee range to use their dots because they have NO RANGE:. Moreover except their dots they have no damage so against everyone who knows how to counter dot damage (cloak, purge, cp into thick-skinned, etc) DKs have a LACK OF DAMAGE:.

Of course Dk is still playable but its not on the same level as other classes.

Agree, but also, its ok for them to be full melee class, but they have to benefit from it then. Like haveing the major defile debuff as a class skill, or other buffs/debuffs as a class skill. Not being force to slot 1h and shield for the buffs/debuffs.. If they have that, I have no problem with lack of mobility as a DK. But they need advantage in other ways then.. There should be a scary thing to jump into a DK melee, right now, its not.

Agreed, its not simply the lack of mobility that kills the class, its the lack of mobility working in tandem with the lack of tankiness.

Teargrants wrote: »

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO wrote: »

Don't let this thread die like the Dragonknights have.

Maybe this thread should just use GDB...oh wait.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I cant play how I want to play ZOS. Magicka DK is ruined and this patch is forcing me to go stam. It's ruining my immershion.

Pft, DK immershuns was ruined the day they made it so I couldn't "Press 'E' to talk to" Standards. Srsly, wtfbbq ZOS?? #biggestnerfever

Ew kirsi changed his icon?
Not feeling it.
Makes you look fat.

RUDE Julsey Woolsey!

sun.fire85b14_ESO

/signed

Azarath_tiberius

9 pages full of feedback / thoughts / rant about DKs and not a single response from the devs..

And soon^TM they will be announcing details about Orsinium

Lets just hope that update will have something for DKs

Nafirian

Sanct16 wrote: »

Nafirian wrote: »

DK does feel so much weaker when compared against the other classes and i feel stronger when i play my other classes but i still love my DK. DKs need to have GBD (Green Dragon Blood and its morphs buffed) Also our lack of mobility and a gap closer is a big issue and the mist form change and mistofrm being "stunned" when a gap closer is used on you has really messed us up all they need to do is change a few things and DKs will be on par with the other classes but not their old ROFL Permabats etc etc etc.

Reflect nerf would have been enough. It was biggest ultimate gain because of all those *** feeding dk ultimate.

True dat.

AzubuFrosts

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

DisgracefulMind

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

First off, that boss is bugged, you're not getting hit by most of his attacks. Second off, you're a stamina DK, and this thread has already established that stamina DK is fine, but it is magicka DK that is sitting in a tight spot.

frozywozy

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

So in other words, what you're saying is that bosses are the ultimate challenge to classify a class as "pvp ready" ?

Hydrocodone

Stamina DK is not fine until they fix Earthen Heart abilities not granting Minor Brutality.

hammayolettuce

Hydrocodone wrote: »

Stamina DK is not fine until they fix Earthen Heart abilities not granting Minor Brutality.

Even with that they are still worlds ahead of magicka DK... Vigor itself each tick heals for more than gdb ... what kinda nonsense is that.

Armitas

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

Ghostbane

P

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

Just a step below of "I solo'd this bacon sandwich"

Docmandu

Joy_Division wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

One thing to be careful of is that we as players usually develop tunnel vision.. while I'm not trying to refute the OP's claim, but if you take something like GDB, everybody claims it's useless.. but everybody only looks at the heal it gives in PvP.

And while I'm mostly a PvP player myself, I do realize that ZOS looks at the total picture (when they're not nerfing the next spell by using a darts board to pick the new effect :P ).

If you take GDB, it probably still works perfectly fine in PvE. Also it does much more than just the heal, which we all use it for. ie. "Also grants Major Fortitude and Major Endurance, increasing Health and Stamina Regeneration by 20% for 20 seconds." -- and yes I know you can get that from a potion, but that means you put your potion use on a re-use timer. The skill also has an impact on your character via the passives a DK has:

- Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic Power ability is active.
- Increases Health recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

In other words.. the heal is just 1 part of the benefits of the skill.

It's like all the NBs that only look at Cloak and don't count the passives that interact with cloak to make it even stronger.


All that said, are DKs in a good spot?! Don't know, only have a level 49 one, so I'll refrain from commenting on the actual issues with the class.

So, what you are basically telling us is that if we don't use a potion and don't slot a Draconic Power ability (*cough* cough* Reflective Scales), DKs will receive some minor passive benefits from slotting and using a GDB terrible heal in a game where a player can only slot 5 skills on an action bar. DKs OP. Nerf please.

Way to miss the point...



edit: stupid forum remembering stuff you typed hours ago = annoying

Joy_Division

Docmandu wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

One thing to be careful of is that we as players usually develop tunnel vision.. while I'm not trying to refute the OP's claim, but if you take something like GDB, everybody claims it's useless.. but everybody only looks at the heal it gives in PvP.

And while I'm mostly a PvP player myself, I do realize that ZOS looks at the total picture (when they're not nerfing the next spell by using a darts board to pick the new effect :P ).

If you take GDB, it probably still works perfectly fine in PvE. Also it does much more than just the heal, which we all use it for. ie. "Also grants Major Fortitude and Major Endurance, increasing Health and Stamina Regeneration by 20% for 20 seconds." -- and yes I know you can get that from a potion, but that means you put your potion use on a re-use timer. The skill also has an impact on your character via the passives a DK has:

- Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic Power ability is active.
- Increases Health recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

In other words.. the heal is just 1 part of the benefits of the skill.

It's like all the NBs that only look at Cloak and don't count the passives that interact with cloak to make it even stronger.


All that said, are DKs in a good spot?! Don't know, only have a level 49 one, so I'll refrain from commenting on the actual issues with the class.

So, what you are basically telling us is that if we don't use a potion and don't slot a Draconic Power ability (*cough* cough* Reflective Scales), DKs will receive some minor passive benefits from slotting and using a GDB terrible heal in a game where a player can only slot 5 skills on an action bar. DKs OP. Nerf please.

Way to miss the point...



edit: stupid forum remembering stuff you typed hours ago = annoying

The point was not missed.

The OP gave precisely the broad vision you want.

You then proceeded to view a skill in isolation, and made the contention that such as skill was not being appreciated because of the other things that it did.

I then disputed your claim by pointing the other things are easily replaceable and the very real opportunity cost of slotting a skill that fails in its primary function, that is other factors that need to be considered (using your own logic of not adopting tunnel vision).

I will not deny that the forums are full of self-serving biased posters who would toss game balance under the bus even for just the promise of more power to their class and their preferred playstyle. In fact, I would say the burden of proof falls upon those who claim that something is too weak/strong. But the OP more than met this standard. Your comments about Green Dragon's Blood did not.

Teridaxus

About stamina dk being okay...
Not everyone has acces to vigor so we are forced into gdb with buffing or healing staff.

And healing staff with sword/shields mean no damage since dots are useless in pvp ( it took them one and a half year to allow dots to damage shields... ).

Hydrocodone

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Hydrocodone wrote: »

Stamina DK is not fine until they fix Earthen Heart abilities not granting Minor Brutality.

Even with that they are still worlds ahead of magicka DK... Vigor itself each tick heals for more than gdb ... what kinda nonsense is that.

I don't have much sympathy for magic DKs simply because they were OP for a long time and I refused to go skirt and stick. So they were a nightmare but I did ok against them if I played perfectly and they made a mistake LOL. Kinda like the NB Cloak/Fear BS we have now. Very much doubt people miss the perma block whip spam. I would not be surprised if the current nerf to stam regen while blocking was a direct result of that situation.

I still use GDB simply for the stamina regen and Rally is a better heal than GDB. Although I do agree Vigor is king, it doesn't fit my build or play style. The only Magic skill I use aside from GDB is Obsidian Shard for the stam return and it can be a very powerful hard CC. Too bad the Minor Brutality buff is broke or I'd be very pleased.

Magic based DK should be viable if that's the play style they prefer, just not 1.5 viable lol.

Jules

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
6k views, and over 200 comments, can we please get some feedback?

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO

Hydrocodone wrote: »

Stamina DK is not fine until they fix Earthen Heart abilities not granting Minor Brutality.

See this a lot. It isn't bugged. The tooltip is ambiguous. You only get Minor Brutality if you make an EH cast WHILE GAINING ULTIMATE. Light Attack -> Earthen Heart = Minor Brutality.

Draxys

Hydrocodone wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Hydrocodone wrote: »

Stamina DK is not fine until they fix Earthen Heart abilities not granting Minor Brutality.

Even with that they are still worlds ahead of magicka DK... Vigor itself each tick heals for more than gdb ... what kinda nonsense is that.

I don't have much sympathy for magic DKs simply because they were OP for a long time

I don't have much respect for anything you say because you say idiotic stuff like that.

Teargrants

Jules wrote: »

Ew kirsi changed his icon?
Not feeling it.
Makes you look fat.

Better than looking deflated.

Yonkit

Teargrants wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Ew kirsi changed his icon?
Not feeling it.
Makes you look fat.

Better than looking deflated.

Jules isn't deflated

bertenburnyb16_ESO

agreed, tnx for nerfing DKs into to ground zeni -_-
I got a templar end lvl and is now in a much better place (for being the underdog before) and am currently lvlng a NB

on a sidenote though
about the mag/stam morphs of class skills => remove this BS, it just pidgeonholes people into certain skills giving them no options
what they SHOULD HAVE DONE is make those class skills scale of the highest stats like ultis were made (so only the ones now with mag/stam morph) so the player still has a choise wich morph to take, unstalbe flame/burning embers is the perfect example, as a mag player, unstable is useless since it scales of stam/Wdam and burning has lower damage and a heal, so no high dam dot for mag users, as stam player u can the high dot of unstable, but u cant use the heal dot of burning since it will be way low
so give both mag and stam users the choise of both morphs pls

Sanct16

Jules wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
6k views, and over 200 comments, can we please get some feedback?

@Jules
People at Zenimax are currently busy leveling NBs, no time to answer forum posts.

Wollust

Jules wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
6k views, and over 200 comments, can we please get some feedback?

Unfortunately, DKpeople are not as good in raiding the forums
and getting ZOS to do something as certain other classes

AzubuFrosts

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

First off, that boss is bugged, you're not getting hit by most of his attacks. Second off, you're a stamina DK, and this thread has already established that stamina DK is fine, but it is magicka DK that is sitting in a tight spot.

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

Bashev

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

First off, that boss is bugged, you're not getting hit by most of his attacks. Second off, you're a stamina DK, and this thread has already established that stamina DK is fine, but it is magicka DK that is sitting in a tight spot.

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

1) It is PvE
2) All your DPS skills are not DK
3) Ultimate generation is faster for console. You used leap at 1.14 and your ultimate was ready at 1.34. Thats are 20 seconds.
4) It is a stamina build.

Azarath_tiberius

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

Quick question. Are you emperor in that video or are you just wearing the costume?

AzubuFrosts

Azarath_tiberius wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

Quick question. Are you emperor in that video or are you just wearing the costume?

just the costume, my stats in that video are 34k health, 19k magika, 16k stam, which any1 would be able to get as they scale u up

Sanct16

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

First off, that boss is bugged, you're not getting hit by most of his attacks. Second off, you're a stamina DK, and this thread has already established that stamina DK is fine, but it is magicka DK that is sitting in a tight spot.

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

What would some pve vid proof anyway? Of course I can solo some boss too as magicka dk. Noone denies that dk is good in pve. However this is a pvp forum and pve stuff is pretty irrelevant when it comes to pvp.