The Death of the Dragonknight- updated 3/15/16

Jules

Fruitdog wrote: »

Forget about fixing DKs, we need all the console players and PC players combined on one server!

As long as they play on AD/DC

Fruitdog

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

Wrecking blow spam when you've got more magic than stam...

Actually Becuz of the scale ur pools are gonna be the same the value is only based on the food, and just be cuz ur magicka is higher doesn't mean you have to use magicka based skills against all and every opponents

So you're a DK expert and you're not even max level yet?

Talcyndl

Jules wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

Forget about fixing DKs, we need all the console players and PC players combined on one server!

As long as they play on AD/DC

Hell for that, I'd switch factions.

Joy_Division

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

First off, that boss is bugged, you're not getting hit by most of his attacks. Second off, you're a stamina DK, and this thread has already established that stamina DK is fine, but it is magicka DK that is sitting in a tight spot.

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

What would some pve vid proof anyway? Of course I can solo some boss too as magicka dk. Noone denies that dk is good in pve. However this is a pvp forum and pve stuff is pretty irrelevant when it comes to pvp.

if you can take that many mobs u should do fine in pvp, if u need proof of pvp i can post solo scroll runs and 1vX for days when i get home, the point of the matter is people are complaining about neffs when i i see it as more of a balence, before dk's can 1vX for days, just because they made it harder to do that doesnt mean they neff the class to ***, just made it more balence, no one should be able to 1v5+ and come out on top if they all loged the same play time and champion ranks

If you honestly feel PvE experience is applicable to PvP, then you do not play experienced players.

Please watch your video again and examine how the flame atrnoachs were attacking you. Please watch what they gladiators do when they get taloned. Watched again how the Harvester was 100% incapable of even scratching you. Your video is a showcase on how to exploit AI mechanics, not on how strong a magicka DK is.

When magicka DKs fight opponents with a functional brain and a modicum of experience, then all the PvE DK tricks do not work: the will cleanse dots, they will use non-projectile attacks, they will actually cause damage and force DKs to rely on that terrible heal you have slotted, they will heal themselves and expose a DKs lack of burst, they will move away from the DK and expose their lack of mobility.

Yet on that video I'm clearly wearing emperor regalia that I've gotten from being crowned on another character, I've also held emperor for over 8 days, I've done my fair share of pve and pvp, I'm not stating that npc are the same as players I'm stating that your survivability and dps is relatively similar, it's not the class that gotta be changed its your play style

Congratulations on being an Emperor. I'm not exactly sure what repairing walls or spamming mutagen or PvPooring a dead buff campaign has anything to do with the discussion.

Reads the original post again. She did not deny that magicka DKs had good survivability or good sustained dps. Why even bother participating in a discussion if instead of engaging on the issues and points up for discussion if you are going to post videos against an entirely different form of opponent with an entirely different build?

OP: Because of the way the game has changed, magicka DKs now have several fundamental flaws that undermine the potential of the spec and make it susbtanard in comparison with the ohter classes.

You: No. *Posts videos of exploiting AI and WB spam*

Like, wut?

Please read above post, maybe change your specs

*Reads it*

More anecdotal generalizations that do not engage the OP's argument:

LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY
NO RANGE
LACK OF DAMAGE: DK's have always been more of a sustain than a high burst damage class. Their dots are applied, tick away and overall accumulate to incredible damage over time results (hence, dot).
LACK OF STAMINA VARIETY

And I did change my spec. The DK now crafts gear that my other classes use to good effect.

Talcyndl

Exhibit 1,000 for why Console players need a separate forum.

Azarath_tiberius

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

First off, that boss is bugged, you're not getting hit by most of his attacks. Second off, you're a stamina DK, and this thread has already established that stamina DK is fine, but it is magicka DK that is sitting in a tight spot.

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

What would some pve vid proof anyway? Of course I can solo some boss too as magicka dk. Noone denies that dk is good in pve. However this is a pvp forum and pve stuff is pretty irrelevant when it comes to pvp.

if you can take that many mobs u should do fine in pvp, if u need proof of pvp i can post solo scroll runs and 1vX for days when i get home, the point of the matter is people are complaining about neffs when i i see it as more of a balence, before dk's can 1vX for days, just because they made it harder to do that doesnt mean they neff the class to ***, just made it more balence, no one should be able to 1v5+ and come out on top if they all loged the same play time and champion ranks

If you honestly feel PvE experience is applicable to PvP, then you do not play experienced players.

Please watch your video again and examine how the flame atrnoachs were attacking you. Please watch what they gladiators do when they get taloned. Watched again how the Harvester was 100% incapable of even scratching you. Your video is a showcase on how to exploit AI mechanics, not on how strong a magicka DK is.

When magicka DKs fight opponents with a functional brain and a modicum of experience, then all the PvE DK tricks do not work: the will cleanse dots, they will use non-projectile attacks, they will actually cause damage and force DKs to rely on that terrible heal you have slotted, they will heal themselves and expose a DKs lack of burst, they will move away from the DK and expose their lack of mobility.

Yet on that video I'm clearly wearing emperor regalia that I've gotten from being crowned on another character, I've also held emperor for over 8 days, I've done my fair share of pve and pvp, I'm not stating that npc are the same as players I'm stating that your survivability and dps is relatively similar, it's not the class that gotta be changed its your play style

Congratulations on being an Emperor. I'm not exactly sure what repairing walls or spamming mutagen or PvPooring a dead buff campaign has anything to do with the discussion.

Reads the original post again. She did not deny that magicka DKs had good survivability or good sustained dps. Why even bother participating in a discussion if instead of engaging on the issues and points up for discussion if you are going to post videos against an entirely different form of opponent with an entirely different build?

OP: Because of the way the game has changed, magicka DKs now have several fundamental flaws that undermine the potential of the spec and make it susbtanard in comparison with the ohter classes.

You: No. *Posts videos of exploiting AI and WB spam*

Like, wut?

Please read above post, maybe change your specs

*Reads it*

More anecdotal generalizations that do not engage the OP's argument:

LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY:
NO RANGE:
LACK OF DAMAGE:DK's have always been more of a sustain than a high burst damage class. Their dots are applied, tick away and overall accumulate to incredible damage over time results (hence, dot).
LACK OF STAMINA VARIETY:

And I did change my spec. The DK now crafts gear that my other classes use to good effect.

Just leave him be for now.

@AzubuFrosts I suggest you take it easy for a bit with what you post on the forum. Take a break or something.

Lets continue with what we were originally discussing.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert Would you like to take a look at this thread? You appearance (at the very least) is required

Ghostbane

my stats in that video are 34k health, 19k magika, 16k stam, which any1 would be able to get as they scale u up

Yes. You just need to enter Cyro under vr14.

if you can take that many mobs u should do fine in pvp

AzubuFrosts

Fruitdog wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

Wrecking blow spam when you've got more magic than stam...

Actually Becuz of the scale ur pools are gonna be the same the value is only based on the food, and just be cuz ur magicka is higher doesn't mean you have to use magicka based skills against all and every opponents

So you're a DK expert and you're not even max level yet?

Agian, never claimed to be an expert, but yes my NB and Templar are both max, my DK isnt, I thought the point of this thread was that as DK are now, they aren't stacking up to the other classes, I'm just here to say that according to my personal experience that isn't true, I've never stated that any thing any has said is straight out false either, obviously this is a DK needs buff thread and people who came here are gonna support that, still I think once I max out my DK he'll still do better in pvp or pve then my other classes

Jules

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

Wrecking blow spam when you've got more magic than stam...

Actually Becuz of the scale ur pools are gonna be the same the value is only based on the food, and just be cuz ur magicka is higher doesn't mean you have to use magicka based skills against all and every opponents

So you're a DK expert and you're not even max level yet?

Agian, never claimed to be an expert, but yes my NB and Templar are both max, my DK isnt, I thought the point of this thread was that as DK are now, they aren't stacking up to the other classes, I'm just here to say that according to my personal experience that isn't true, I've never stated that any thing any has said is straight out false either, obviously this is a DK needs buff thread and people who came here are gonna support that, still I think once I max out my DK he'll still do better in pvp or pve then my other classes

The Derp is strong with this one.

Fruitdog

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I think once I max out my DK he'll still do better in pvp or pve then my other classes

If I got to face console players that act like NPCs I'd probably think the same thing.

AzubuFrosts

The PC superior race is strong on this thread

Joy_Division

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Azarath_tiberius wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

See ur missi

Azarath_tiberius wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Yet on that video I'm clearly wearing emperor regalia that I've gotten from being crowned on another character, I've also held emperor for over 8 days

That proves nothing. Its just like what the NPCs say randomly when you pass them "anyone can be crowned emperor, thats the risks we take"..

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I'm not stating that npc are the same as players I'm stating that your survivability and dps is relatively similar, it's not the class that gotta be changed its your play style

Again, wrong. Even if you cant find a difference between NPC and a player (...), players will still use different tactics / counters / skills etc etc. What you can do in PvE =/= what you can do in PvP.

Ur kinda missing my point, yes players can use different tactics, but so can you, there are mage npc and giant orges, just like using reflective skills to migrate the damage or using charge to interrupt their charge you would have to change your tactics depending on the mob or player, eso combat is extremely similar to real life combat on the fact that sometimes you have to decide to dodge it or block it or take the hit and heal it back with magicka in order to recover ur stamina pool or which abilities you would have to use to cancel out another. DKs were easily the highest dps, and debatablely one of the best tanks, I'm sorry that they don't have a have a gap close or finishing move, BUT then again you can morph molten weapon to deal more damage to low health targets, but yes DK don't have a spam to win skill, you can't smash a button to win, but they can easily out last most players.
TL;DR Change your play style cuz they probably aren't gonna change the game, thanks for not resorting to personal insult tho

Did you just tell me and @Joy_Division to l2p or something?? Like... wut?

No idea who u or that guy is, sorry

It does not matter how we are. What matters is the arguments that we present. You have done little to refute them aside from posting videos that are off topic, citing vague anecdotal experiences that do not address the OP, trying to impress us with your credentials as an empror, and implying that we need to L2P, which is an argumentative fallacy.

Wollust

I can dps the mantikora for 20k and more.
Op op i can instakill players then I guess

Jules

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

The PC superior race is strong on this thread

I would take a console player seriously if even one of them offered me an intelligent counter argument based in logic. However, when you post about your lowbie, stamina dk that can solo PVE content as the reason why I'm wrong, I stop listening and just start laughing.

Fruitdog

When I get home I'm gonna make a video of my DK killing mud crabs and that will just deflate this whole thread. Prepare to get rekt, Jules!

AzubuFrosts

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Azarath_tiberius wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

See ur missi

Azarath_tiberius wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Yet on that video I'm clearly wearing emperor regalia that I've gotten from being crowned on another character, I've also held emperor for over 8 days

That proves nothing. Its just like what the NPCs say randomly when you pass them "anyone can be crowned emperor, thats the risks we take"..

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I'm not stating that npc are the same as players I'm stating that your survivability and dps is relatively similar, it's not the class that gotta be changed its your play style

Again, wrong. Even if you cant find a difference between NPC and a player (...), players will still use different tactics / counters / skills etc etc. What you can do in PvE =/= what you can do in PvP.

Ur kinda missing my point, yes players can use different tactics, but so can you, there are mage npc and giant orges, just like using reflective skills to migrate the damage or using charge to interrupt their charge you would have to change your tactics depending on the mob or player, eso combat is extremely similar to real life combat on the fact that sometimes you have to decide to dodge it or block it or take the hit and heal it back with magicka in order to recover ur stamina pool or which abilities you would have to use to cancel out another. DKs were easily the highest dps, and debatablely one of the best tanks, I'm sorry that they don't have a have a gap close or finishing move, BUT then again you can morph molten weapon to deal more damage to low health targets, but yes DK don't have a spam to win skill, you can't smash a button to win, but they can easily out last most players.
TL;DR Change your play style cuz they probably aren't gonna change the game, thanks for not resorting to personal insult tho

Did you just tell me and @Joy_Division to l2p or something?? Like... wut?

No idea who u or that guy is, sorry

It does not matter how we are. What matters is the arguments that we present. You have done little to refute them aside from posting videos that are off topic, citing vague anecdotal experiences that do not address the OP, trying to impress us with your credentials as an empror, and implying that we need to L2P, which is an argumentative fallacy.

Actually the only "arguments" that I've seen are alone the lines of "console players must be bad" and "nope ur wrong cuz we're right" please quote a response that isn't one of those, maybe I missed it

Jules wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

The PC superior race is strong on this thread

I would take a console player seriously if even one of them offered me an intelligent counter argument based in logic. However, when you post about your lowbie, stamina dk that can solo PVE content as the reason why I'm wrong, I stop listening and just start laughing.

Actually the point of the video was to show that dk can migrate damage better then any class which holds true for low or max, they also shows that a skill like reflective scales can be used offensively to make up for the dps lost and not just a defensive skill as the bosses practice practically killed themselves so can other players if you time it right, but you see what you see

AzubuFrosts

All I'm trying to say is that all classes have their strengths and weaknesses, yes DK don't got much of a finisher and they lack a gap closer but a Nightblade isn't gonna be healing for 33% off missing health or reflecting back a 20k damage fallen star for an additional 20% damage. Maybe I should've went about this another way, I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my opinion and I'll get off this thread, just wanted to share my thoughts on class balances

Armitas

A DK won't be healing 33% of his missing health either. Any class can reflect the reflected meteor back. Two classes actually have access to a stronger heal than dragon blood due to their ability to protect their ward bubble. With the exception of reflect all this has already been discussed in this thread along with all the arguments you say are not there.

Azarath_tiberius

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Actually the only "arguments" that I've seen are alone the lines of "console players must be bad" and "nope ur wrong cuz we're right" please quote a response that isn't one of those, maybe I missed it

Have you even read the OP? Have you even tried magicka DK? There are a lot of arguments in that post that counter what you say.
The fact that you only see console VS PC debate and ignore everything else written in this thread is on you.

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Actually the point of the video was to show that dk can migrate damage better then any class which holds true for low or max, they also shows that a skill like reflective scales can be used offensively to make up for the dps lost and not just a defensive skill as the bosses practice practically killed themselves so can other players if you time it right, but you see what you see

Your argument is ,again, invalid.. That's because a player will see you have your scales up and if he's a

• NB: He'll ambush, fear, use incapacitating strike, use surprise attack then execute.
• sorc: streak through you, curse, frags while you are down and then execute.
• Templar: topling charge, jabs*10, execute

Now you may think, this cant necessarily happen and you'll be right! Why? Because PvP is a much more dynamic environment and regardless how good you can "migrate damage" that wont help you much because there are deeper problems with DKs as a whole.

Take a look again at my example, do you see any similarities of what an enemy can use? The answer is they can execute you.
With 50% dmg reduction in PvP , executes are by far more strong than before. Stamina DKs have access to executes but magicka ones don't. Molten armaments is a joke and the recent "fix" from partial heavy attacks to "fully charged" is more a nerf to magicka DKs rather making that skill appealing / useful.

As I wrote earlier in this thread:

~3.5 seconds that I have to fully charge my heavy attack my enemy will have

• healed himself
• stunned me
• escape.
  
  
  

  AzubuFrosts wrote: »

  All I'm trying to say is that all classes have their strengths and weaknesses, yes DK don't got much of a finisher and they lack a gap closer but a Nightblade isn't gonna be healing for 33% off missing health or reflecting back a 20k damage fallen star for an additional 20% damage. Maybe I should've went about this another way, I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my opinion and I'll get off this thread, just wanted to share my thoughts on class balances

  
  You didn't offend anyone, its just that the devs of this game aren't very grounded with what most of us tell them. So when they (finally) read anything of this thread, posts like yours will confuse them and with most probable scenario ignore the thread as a whole.

Wollust

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

All I'm trying to say is that all classes have their strengths and weaknesses, yes DK don't got much of a finisher and they lack a gap closer but a Nightblade isn't gonna be healing for 33% off missing health or reflecting back a 20k damage fallen star for an additional 20% damage. Maybe I should've went about this another way, I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my opinion and I'll get off this thread, just wanted to share my thoughts on class balances

Ok I see your point.
Let me tell you why your argument with the mobs and PVE is invalid.
You will never ever see 4 players standing by your side shooting one projectile every 2-3 seconds with your wings up. No one does that. And this is the difference. PVE monsters are not intelligent, they always use their programmed mechanics and are predictable. Which differs from PVP, where people THINK about what they are doing and where they adjust and pressure you way more than those mobs do with their attacks every few seconds. And this is why your comparison kinda sucks and is not telling a thing about the state of the DK.
And especially, this thread is about the magicka DK and not stamina, another thing more you seem to have forgotten. Believe me, a lot of the people giving inputs on this thread are people that know their class, have been playing it for over a year. This is not anymore something about adapting and learning and having skills. This is why your input is also not being taken seriously. I don't wanna go about PC superiority or anything, but for a matter of facts, PC players have been playing longer and the average player is stronger on the PC than on the console. I don't mean ill or anything with it, but this is pure logic if you've been playing a game for 1.5 years compared to the 3 months of the console players. You encounter more decent players on the PC than on the console. Which also affects the class differences and how you experience the class.
While I agree you can make it work with skills (Hell even I can 1vX with my magicka DK nowadays if the players are bad), the nerfbat hit the DK hard, so hard that it isn't competitive to the other magicka classes anymore (note how I state magicka, not stamina).
I hope you can understand why people are kinda annoyed if someone with a really small amount of experience comes and tries to tell them otherwise by posting a random PVE video which says absolutely nothing about PVP whatsoever.

Btw, a DK is not gonna heal itself for 33% either, because healing nerf affects Dragon Blood as well, thus making it a bad self heal. And Nightblades can just cloak the incoming meteor.

frozywozy

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AzubuFrosts wrote: »

I soloed a sewer boss with dk after imperial city patch, I think they do fine
https://youtu.be/HhV7KyPY-y8

First off, that boss is bugged, you're not getting hit by most of his attacks. Second off, you're a stamina DK, and this thread has already established that stamina DK is fine, but it is magicka DK that is sitting in a tight spot.

[EDIT]ohh my bad, didnt see the part about the Stam DK being fine, ignore this as i dont know how to delete.

how about this then? the whole arena must be bugged.
https://youtu.be/wjnVokO4h-s

What would some pve vid proof anyway? Of course I can solo some boss too as magicka dk. Noone denies that dk is good in pve. However this is a pvp forum and pve stuff is pretty irrelevant when it comes to pvp.

if you can take that many mobs u should do fine in pvp, if u need proof of pvp i can post solo scroll runs and 1vX for days when i get home, the point of the matter is people are complaining about neffs when i i see it as more of a balence, before dk's can 1vX for days, just because they made it harder to do that doesnt mean they neff the class to ***, just made it more balence, no one should be able to 1v5+ and come out on top if they all loged the same play time and champion ranks

If you honestly feel PvE experience is applicable to PvP, then you do not play experienced players.

Please watch your video again and examine how the flame atrnoachs were attacking you. Please watch what they gladiators do when they get taloned. Watched again how the Harvester was 100% incapable of even scratching you. Your video is a showcase on how to exploit AI mechanics, not on how strong a magicka DK is.

When magicka DKs fight opponents with a functional brain and a modicum of experience, then all the PvE DK tricks do not work: the will cleanse dots, they will use non-projectile attacks, they will actually cause damage and force DKs to rely on that terrible heal you have slotted, they will heal themselves and expose a DKs lack of burst, they will move away from the DK and expose their lack of mobility.

Yet on that video I'm clearly wearing emperor regalia that I've gotten from being crowned on another character, I've also held emperor for over 8 days, I've done my fair share of pve and pvp, I'm not stating that npc are the same as players I'm stating that your survivability and dps is relatively similar, it's not the class that gotta be changed its your play style

Congratulations on being an Emperor. I'm not exactly sure what repairing walls or spamming mutagen or PvPooring a dead buff campaign has anything to do with the discussion.

Reads the original post again. She did not deny that magicka DKs had good survivability or good sustained dps. Why even bother participating in a discussion if instead of engaging on the issues and points up for discussion if you are going to post videos against an entirely different form of opponent with an entirely different build?

OP: Because of the way the game has changed, magicka DKs now have several fundamental flaws that undermine the potential of the spec and make it susbtanard in comparison with the ohter classes.

You: No. *Posts videos of exploiting AI and WB spam*

Like, wut?

Please read above post, maybe change your specs

*Reads it*

More anecdotal generalizations that do not engage the OP's argument:

LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY
NO RANGE
LACK OF DAMAGE: DK's have always been more of a sustain than a high burst damage class. Their dots are applied, tick away and overall accumulate to incredible damage over time results (hence, dot).
LACK OF STAMINA VARIETY

And I did change my spec. The DK now crafts gear that my other classes use to good effect.

Not to forget that since a magicka DK relay on high DoT, that implies to actually slot multiple damaging skills. Problem is, with the lack of survivability and sustain of the class, you are forced to use only 2 single target skills which is not enough to kill anyone in 1v1 scenarios (other skills being used to buff and sustain himself).

He is also supposed to be very tank but he can only relay on one very weak shield against physical damage (igneous shield) which make him vulnerable to critical strikes most of the time during his fight unlike sorcerers who have much better shields to tank (hardened ward) or nightblades who can actually drop one hand shield for resto since they can relay on cloak for defense and use healing ward which is also much better than igneous shield against physical damage.

Magicka DKs are also forced to use 5pc heavy armor to survive against glass cannons physical damage type of characters which reduce, once again, their damage drastically because they cannot benefit from light armor passives like sorcerers.

Finally, magicka DKs cannot relay on destruction staves in a melee situation because they take way too much damage from glass cannons physical damage type of characters, which force them to use one hand shield to attack, thereby significantly decreasing their damage for multiple reasons such as weaving light/heavy attacks being totally useless since it relay on physical damage.

RadioheadSh0t

Wollust wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Still, even though I'd agree that DKs could use a buff, DKs were relatively stronger in the past more than they are relatively weaker now. ZOS is clearly both making up for launch imbalance issues, and incentivizing players to re-roll (buy those crown scrolls!), but I'll take one class being somewhat weaker as opposed to one class to rule them all, like DKs were for some time.

Let's not forget that wings are still the only reflect that reflects ranged physical projectiles. Against a ranged class like Sorc, they're still pretty hard to beat because you HAVE to be running Lightning staff and Curse to beat them. Also, why defensive stance doesn't reflect physical is beyond me - it's a one-off cast, so how OP could it be?

Nope. This is not how balancing works. If a class was super strong in prior patches, you go and balance them with all the other classes. You do not make the class on purpose weaker just to make up for past faults. This is an insanely stupid argument and completely unreasonable.

Cool we have wings, which bugs out quite frequently. But how does that make up the missing damage? The missing survivability? The inbalance to the other classes?

QQ more buddy. I wasn't saying I agreed with it, but it's clearly what they're doing. They may have went overboard in their attempt to balance them, but it's still better than the alternative of what DKs used to be.

Like I said, Stam whip would help DKs. Some other suggestions here could make DKs more balanced. But if you're complaining about DKs getting nerfed without acknowledging WHY they've been getting nerfed, you're making an incomplete argument.

I think many of the complaints are valid about DKs, others are people QQing because they're used to being completely unbalanced and just simply aren't as good as they think they are. They're still players who are effective as DKs, so they aren't completely useless, they just are a higher skill class now than what they used to be, which was very low-skill IMHO, speaking as someone who has a DK.

How was DK too op in 1.5? I think back then the balance was better as in 1.6 and one thousand times better than 1.7. You can not seriously tell me that 1.5 DK was more op than 1.6 sorcs and stamblades? I don't mind those classes being strong, and I don't like the nerfs they took with this update. I dislike any nerfs tbh. But as a matter of fact, DK has been nerfed many times with a lot of nerfs not being justified anymore. How is a nerf in 1.7 being justified? DK was nowhere near op in 1.6. it was an decent class to play with but now?
Yes stam whip would help stam dk, but I think this thread is more about the magicka dk anyway. So we should probably let the stamina discussion fade out a bit.
And I'm not qq and hoping to get the DKs back that could wreck whole trains of noobs. I'd happy with having my 1.6 DK already. Would this kinda buffs be too much to ask for? Seriously?
And yes, there are good players around with DKs. But did you notice that those are going down in numbers recently? I think I wasn't too bad of a DK myself in 1.6, but this update just ruined the class completely imo. And I'm not alone with this point.

DKs were most definitely still on top in 1.5. Remember, I'm not some noob who's only played one class, and my DK was definitely more OP in 1.5 than my sorc before and now or NB since. They might not have been AS OP, but they were still unbalanced.

I think you and I agree that DKs could use a buff, but, once again, my point is more about WHY they have been nerfed, which is clearly a series of reactionary moves by ZOS, and remember they want you to put as much time in the game as possible, so incentivizingn re-rolls has to be a part of their business plan.

And if you want to compare them to sorcs, remember that sorcs got hurt as much if not more by the armor mitigation change, and their shields and escape were nerfed in 1.7 because of all the QQ (nerf sorc became an actual sarcastic joke because of the amount of QQ).

Stam is relevant to the discussion, as it was one of the OPs points (lack of Stam variety), and a big change that could significantly improve the class overall.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

Azarath_tiberius

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

Early next year? So in the best case in 4 months. I guess better than nothing

Trayyacakes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

Thank you for your response Gina, and I know that what I am about to rage on is not your fault, but I'm going to do it anyway. It is ridiculous to wait 3 months before balancing. ZOS comes through and makes huge sweeping changes and then waits far too long to make tweaks. It is a joke. What this player base is asked/expected to put up with is absolutely ridiculous. The game was completely changed with the introduction of the champion system, no balance changes were made until IC, and the majority of the changes that were made in IC were just blanked fixes/nerfs that again completely changed game mechanics. ZOS is again refusing to do any "balancing" for another 3-4 months... Who makes these terrible decisions? This is awful management.

Ishammael

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

Switching to stam tonight...

Firerock2

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

That is a ridiculous amount of time to wait for class balancing. Two out of the four classes have been outperforming the other 2 since Update 6 came around and that was in March. It takes you people more than half a year to do anything about this? I suggest you roll out class balancing much sooner, anything else I should suggest would greatly insult your dev team.

Talcyndl

Ishammael wrote: »

Switching to stam tonight...

Continuing to level my NB tonight.

Ghostbane

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

Gina, thank you for the honesty and the realistic timeline. It is exactly what most of us wanted to know.

We look forward to the discussions on improving matters in the new year.

SturgeHammer

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

Please tell us that "next major update" is no longer defined as "next dlc release". Waiting 3~4 months for ability bug fixes is a real drag. Also, the early next year time frame for a balance update is tremendously depressing.