The Death of the Dragonknight- updated 3/15/16

Jules

Original Post: 9/2015:

We get it, ZOS. You really want to punish DK's for the permastandard permabats permatalons murder-slaughter-faceroll-a-thon. But I'm pretty sure with this patch, you took it a bit far. In case you hadn’t noticed, DK’s feel very sub-standard these days.

In general, the class feels as if it has been gutted so many times that it is simply a shadow of its former self. With the release of 2.1 and the many changes that accompanied it, DK’s were forever changed. It is simply a necessity that the class be reviewed as far as its relevance in Cyrodiil and its comparative balance to other classes.

HOW DK'S STACK UP:
For the majority of the game, DK's have been forced to substitute their class weaknesses with weapon tree abilities. However with the many changes to abilities, regen and skills this patch, DK's are not able to run the same weapons they once were and still receive the same results. It's important to keep in mind that all of these class weakness work in conjuncture with one another.


1. LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY:
In a world where if you stand still, you die, the lack of mobility of the DK class has to be the largest weakness.

• DK's are the only class without a reliable gap closer. No, sorry, chains doesn't count as it does not have a fixed direction in which it operates. The primary purpose of chains is to pull people to you, however when it is a boss/cc immune person, it will pull you to them. This skill is also historically buggy. *More importantly, chains also gives FREE CC IMMUNITY. However, chains does not stun or cc the person in any way, making it utterly useless in comparison to other gap closers - and in comparison to ambush (which has small stun afterward but no cc immunity) chains just seems ridiculous*
  
  ---->Why this didn't matter before: In the patches leading up to this one, DK's made up for this lack of a gap closer with invasion, off the sword/board weapon tree. Sword/Board had incredibly good synergy with DK because not only the use of the gap closer, but I'll cover that more in a sec.
  
  ---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration while blocking nerf, it is no longer always best in slot for DK's to run Sword/Board. DW offers more spell damage which DK's desperately need in many situations. Without S&B, this removes the DK go-to gap closer and weakens the class tremendously.
  
  
  Updated 2/16: Empowering chains now is a viable DK gap closer. It no longer gives free CC immunity and always moves player toward target rather than relying off of CC Immunity to decide the direction. Range very far, also gives major expedition for 2s after use and empowers next skill's damage. Very great change to this skill.
  
  
• DK's have no escape.
  
  ---->Why this didn't matter before: DK's made up for their lack of escape with the use of mist form.
  
  ---->Why it matters now: Mist form is now a weak escape as it is targetable without tab target and it displays an alliance indicator plainly above your head.

Updated 2/16: DK's continue to have no traditional "escape" but the changes to empowering chains does gives dks some mobility with the major expedition. Lack of escape seems to not affect the class as much in thieves guild update as DK's are able to more efficiently stand their ground and do solid damage.

2. NO RANGE:
All of the damage that DK's can do aside from obsidian shard is within an ~5-8m melee range.

---->Why this didn't matter before: "In-your-face" DK worked very well with sword and board as a staple of the DK build. DK's were able to comfortably be in melee range, do some damage and tank some damage. Many DK's ran dual S&B. However, some DK's made up for their lack of class range with crushing shock if preferred. They were able to run destro as an off because their strong class heal was preferred over resto heals.

---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration nerfs to block, DK's are unable to tank damage in the same way they once were. To some this is a good thing, and it's debatable. However the issue is that tanking damage while doing damage was the strength of the Dragonknight class. If you need proof, simply look at the skill lines and passives of Ardent Flame and Draconic Power. Both trees contribute to the image of a tanky DD. The blocking nerf of this patch hit everyone hard, but no where near as hard as it DK's. DK's are now put into a unique and sh-tty position. They need to be within ~8m to do any real damage, but they cannot withstand the enemy damage of melee range for very long due to the nerfs to block.

Aside from that, DK's can no longer rely on their class self-heal as it is incredibly weak. This pretty much means a default resto as an off bar for heals. This limits their ability to use destro for the ranged ability of crushing shock. A destro/resto set up is in fact possible, but with dual wield still giving the most spell damage as far as weapons (GO FIGURE), dk's are in need of the damage and generally choose dual wield.

((Sidebar: Truth be told, the fact that dual wield gives spell damage at all is completely nonsensical. This means that magicka users who desire max spell damage (*which is of course STILL so much harder to stack than weapon damage*) are pidgeonholed into equipping a weapon for which they do not receive advantages from most of the passives.))


Updated 2/16: "In your face" DK has returned, damage of the class is on par with other classes depending on build. The range of empowering chains allows DK's to get into melee range easily, and changes to obsidian shard skill (making it magicka) make it a somewhat viable skill. The lack of range appears to not affect the class very much at this time. Issues with coagulating/green dragon blood remain but the changes to burning embers and inhale allow for heals to be procced off of these skills easily and efficiently.

3. LACK OF DAMAGE:
DK's have always been more of a sustain than a high burst damage class. Their dots are applied, tick away and overall accumulate to incredible damage over time results (hence, dot).

• DK is negated by too many things. DK's are the kings of DOT abilities. There is engulfing flames, burning embers, talons, eruption, standard, ect. The majority of our damage abilities in one form or another have a DOT function. All of this damage is negated/lessened by not only the champion system (Thick Skinned), but also Dark Cloak, and purge.
  
  ---->Why this didn't matter before: People didn't permacloak because it was broken back then. DK's sustained the damage of their enemies long enough (through the use of S&B/block) to chip away at their health regardless of the lack of effectiveness of dots.
  
  ---->Why it matters now: Cloak was buffed/fixed/whatever this patch. Permacloaking is possible and done often. This means DK dots are all but useless in this situation. DK's can also not block into oblivion and out-sustain their opponents.
  
  Updated 2/16: Changes to dark cloak help with this. Dark Cloak will no longer purge dots off of you, rather they will just not tick while NB's are in dark cloak and will resume damage when they are out. Purge being capped helps this as well.
  
  
• Dk's are the only class without an execute. Does anything else need to even be said? Sorcs have Mages wrath, Temps have Radiant Destruction, and NB's have Killers Blade/Impale. HELL- NB's have an execute that has both a stamina and magicka morph. DK's don't even have 1 execute. Can I get a WTF?
  

Updated 2/16: DK damage feels on par with other classes and can have high burst with the use of dots, flame lash and prox det. The changes to CP system allowing elemental damage and magic damage to be in the same passive point helps dks who are using both types of damage. Inhale and its morphs were also increased in damage and increased to 6 targets from 3, making it a more viable DK AOE option.

5. LACK OF STAMINA VARIETY:
DK's synergize best with magicka.

This is not debatable. All of the class skills-- and especially all of the strong ones (talons, whip, fossilize, igneous shield) are all magicka skills for both morphs. The only DK stam abilities are the stamina morph of the two ardent flame dots. There is next to no synergy with any DK stam build aside from "Helping Hands" passive off Earthen Heart tree that gives back 5% stam and the dots.

A Stam DK is essentially just a weapon-based offense. #giveusstaminawhip

• Magicka/Stamina Imbalances Because DK synergize best with magicka, this gives them the distinct privilege of all of the above disadvantages, in addition to being completely out damaged by stam users. Spell damage cannot be stacked to the same height as weapon damage, period. Even with the much needed changes to the mundus stones, the Molag Kena 1 piece, and continuous attack (which should have always been that way to begin with) spell damage is still not offered through 5 piece light armor, or the Master's Weapons and is still not as strong as weapon.
  
  Magicka once had the shield/healing advantage over stam that justified this imbalance between raw damage. With the nerf to shields/heals and the addition of vigor, stam builds are stronger in almost every possible way. And without a truly viable DK *class* stam build available, this again leaves DK's at a sad fork in the road.
  

Updated 2/16: The champion point system has been changed to greatly balance magicka and stamina builds. Thaumaturge no longer increases magic damage and all of the magic-based damage is now condensed within "Elemental Expert". This allows magicka DK's to stack all of their damage into Elemental Expert much like stamina builds have been able to do with "Mighty". Furthermore, DK's (as well as other classes) are now also able to mitigate stamina/physical damage through the champion point system and the "Hardy" passive, making things more balanced for all players looking to spec their mitigation of damage.

All in all, this has been a long and desperate rambling of a DK looking for ZOS to understand exactly the position they have put us in. You have fundamentally changed the way that DK is played this patch and you have dismantled the core of the class because of this. Yes, the class is still playable. Yes, it is still functional in groups and yes, you can still kill people. But the purpose of this post is to prove that you have to try twice as hard to achieve half the results. The class cannot thrive if it remains this way.

I applaud the decision to revert to old talons, but am still in disbelief that it was ever intended to begin with. Please reconsider and rethink new options for DK before we see only 3 classes in Cyrodiil.

Sincerely,
Jules


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TIMELINE OF DK CHANGES AFTER ORIGINAL POST:
10/25/15-

Did a few tests of the champion point passives with my friend Vyn and found some startling results. It turns out that elemental defender (reduction of flame/frost/shock dmg) and thick skinned (reduction of dots dmg) partially stack on certain DK abilities. To explain this more thoroughly, the damage of a skill such as engulfing flames is reduced TWICE in the champion point system. It is not only reduced because it is a fire ability, it is reduced again because it is also a dot. They do not stack completely but only partially, meaning one or the other probably applies first.

To add insult to injury, there is STILL no "reduce physical damage by [x]%" in the CP system. Only reducing magicka damage and buffing stamina damage. #fail

Regardless, below is a spread sheet of our numbers and findings.



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1/2016-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwO78DV2xo

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2/5/2016-

Upcoming DK Changes in Thieves Guild Patch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvOnuM0kvJU

A lot of the changes to DK's have been very very positive in the upcoming thieves guild patch. Above I outlined all of the skill changes that were present in the patch notes and am very pleased with the options we've been given. If you do not want to watch the video, I've made a quick bulleted version of the changes below and why they are positive.

ARDENT FLAME:
1. Shifting Standard reduced to 200 ultimate from 250, synergy range from 2.5 to 3.5 meters. Makes this ult more viable in pvp.
2. Empowering Chains - new DK gap closer, far range, does not apply CC immunity to target, always pulls DK to target. Also gives major expedition for 2s and empower of next skill after use. Allows DKs to have gap closers without having to use weapon skills.
3. Burning Embers increases to heals, now also heals on initial damage as well. Very solid heal. If this skill is purified or purged, you still get the heal and don't have to cast the skill again. (Info courtesy of WRX)
4. Inferno - No longer a toggle skill. Will give spell crit with both morphs, will give weapon crit with flames of oblivion. Crit given when slotted, not when skill is active. New skill "Cauterize" that sends heal to allies rather than Flames of Oblivion morph which sends damage to enemies.

DRACONIC POWER:
1. Burning Talons- initial damage is now flame damage instead of physical damage. Choking talons still has initial physical damage.
2. Dragon Fire Scale - more of a change to meteor than this actual skill, but meteor ultimate & its morphs will no longer be reflectable.
3. Inhale- Increased targets from 3 to 6, increased damage for both morphs, increased cost. Deep breath remains as interrupt morph, Draw essence now scales off of targets hit and returns magicka to player based on how many hit. IE: 1 person hit, returns 10% of skills cost to player, 2 people hit, returns 20% of skills cost to player, ect. All the way up to 60% magicka return.

EARTHEN HEART:
1. Magma Armor - damage shield that is applied to allies no longer needs to be synergized to apply. Will apply to allies automatically.
2. Stonefist- &Morphs, increases to healing with this skill, changed both morphs to magic damage from physical damage.
3. Igneous Weapons - Now gives Major Brutality and Major Sorcery (20% increases to spell damage and weapon damage) Applies to self, not target. Lasts 40 seconds. Also applies buff to "allies" --28 meter range, not yet tested to see if allies are capped.
4. Igneous Shield - buff to damage shield
5. Eruption - buff to initial hit damage

NON DK SKILLS:
1. Inner light - no longer a toggle, still gives 7% max magicka like old version, also reveals stealthed enemies and does not allow them to return to stealth for 5s. 6s buff
[/color]

Actual Patch Notes concerning DK's:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ardent Flame
  • Burning Breath (Fiery Breath morph): Fixed an issue where the Major Fracture debuff applied by this ability was shorter than the duration of the damage over time effect.
  • Burning Embers (Searing Strike morph):
    • Increased the heal at the end of the damage over time to 69/71/73/75% of the total damage inflicted at Ranks I/II/III/IV, from 30/32/34/36%.
    • The heal from this morph now applies immediately if it is recast on the same target.
  • Dragonknight Standard: Increased the activation range for the Shackle synergy from this ability and its morphs to 3.5 meters from 2.5 meters.
  • Empowering Chains (Fiery Grip morph): This morph will now always pull you to the target instead of pulling the target to you. It will continue to grant the Major Empower buff after being pulled as a morph effect.
  • Extended Chains (Fiery Grip morph):
    • Renamed this morph to Unrelenting Grip.
    • This morph no longer attempts to pull you to the target if the target is immune to the pull.
    • This morph will now refund 100% of the ability’s cost as Magicka if it fails to pull a target.
  • Fiery Grip:
    • Extended Chains’ cost reduction and range increase effect is now a baseline effect for Fiery Grip.
    • This ability and its morphs will now grant you the Major Expedition buff for 2 seconds after casting.
    • This ability no longer attempts to pull you to the target if the target is immune to the pull.
  • Inferno:
    • This ability and its morphs are no longer toggle abilities; instead, they will grant their Critical Strike rating benefit as long as they are slotted.
    • The ability can be activated to summon an aura of flames for 15 seconds, which launches a fireball at an enemy every 5 seconds.
    • The fireball has been changed to deal direct damage instead of damage over time.
    • Increased the damage from the fireball by 15%.
    • Note: The Flames of Oblivion morph will continue to grant the Weapon Critical Strike rating while slotted as a morph effect.
  • Sea of Flames (Inferno morph): This morph has been renamed to Cauterize, and will now summon an Aura of Cauterizing Flames, launching a fireball at an ally to heal them instead of an enemy to damage them.
  • Shifting Standard (Dragonknight Standard morph): Reduced the cost of this morph to 200 Ultimate from 250 Ultimate.
• Draconic Power
  • Burning Talons (Dark Talons morph): This morph now deals Flame Damage for its initial hit instead of Physical Damage.
  • Deep Breath (Inhale morph): This morph no longer increases the damage of the exhale damage (the second hit) due to the baseline damage increases for Inhale, described below. It will continue to interrupt targets on the inhale (the first hit) as a morph effect.
  • Draw Essence (Inhale morph): This morph will now restore 10% of the ability’s cost as Magicka per target hit with the exhale instead of restoring Magicka based on the damage dealt.
  • Inhale:
    • Increased the exhale damage (the second hit) from this ability and the Draw Essence morph by 40%. The Deep Breath morph has had its exhale damage increased by 16% to match this value.
    • This ability and its morphs now hits 6 targets, increased from 3 targets, and follows standard area of effect damage guidelines for additional targets.
    • Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 6%.
• Earthen Heart
  • Eruption (Ash Cloud morph): Increased the initial eruption damage from this morph by 22%.
  • Igneous Weapons (Molten Weapons morph): This morph will now grant you and your allies the Major Brutality buff for 30 seconds, in addition to the Major Sorcery buff.
  • Magma Shell (Magma Armor morph):
    • This morph no longer grants a synergy to allies for a powerful damage shield; instead, it automatically applies the damage shield on nearby allies when the ability is used.
    • Increased the radius of the shield application to 8 meters from 5 meters.
  • Molten Armaments (Molten Weapons morph):
    • This morph now increases your own fully-charged Heavy Attack damage by 40% for 30 seconds in addition to granting the Major Sorcery buff.
    • This morph will now apply the fully-charged Heavy Attack damage bonus to Lightning and Restoration Staves.
  • Molten Weapons: This ability and its morphs now applies a 30 second Major Sorcery buff for you and nearby allies.
  • Mountain’s Blessing: This passive ability now grants the Minor Brutality buff any time an Earthen Heart ability is activated. The Ultimate gain portion of the passive still can only be granted while you are in combat, and the tooltip has been updated to convey this.
  • Obsidian Shard (Stonefist morph): Increased the healing from this morph by 16%.
  • Obsidian Shield: Igneous Shield's increased damage shield effect is now a baseline effect for Obsidian Shield.
    • Note: The Igneous Shield morph will continue to grant you the Major Mending buff as a morph effect.
  • Stonefist: Increased the range of this ability and its morphs to 28 meters from 20 meters. In addition, this ability and its morphs now deal Magic Damage, instead of Physical Damage.

Any questions/comments/concerns/complaints please feel free to whisper me in game or on forums. Been testing a lot on PTS and will hopefully update with some combat videos soon. Big thank you to ZOS for hearing us out and making these very necessary changes to our beloved Dragonknight.

Sincerely,
Jules


PS: Just tested this afternoon, igneous weapons looks to hit 5 people and the DK for total of 6 people. ~28m range. Additional people within this range won't receive it. Minor brutality should apply with same numbers but not 100% on that. Magma Shell looks to have about an ~8-10m range and hits self and 6 additional allies with the damage shield automatically. Hope this is helpful!! (Thanks to Hek, Joy Division, ThemDogesBite, Mountain Scum, Dal Ris, Rahon, Likes To Zerg, & Zergcrusher for your help testing!)

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2-8-16-
DK's are very strong in 1v1 scenarios still with new update. Even stronger than currently. Many things however in a 1vX situation are lacking. I have tested in outnumbered scenarios and DK's are so desperate for movement. Any kind of movement. We need major expedition from somewhere. This is personally a fantastic idea imo:

Derra wrote: »

Wouldn´t it be a nice idea to get rid of the spellresist morph on reflect and replace that with a 4second major expedition?

Wings with a speedbuff seem fitting for me.

The other thing that DK's are desperate for is either major evasion or a way to cleanse snares/cc's. Something in the same fashion as shuffle. As it stands now, DK's in outnumbered situations will likely die because they run out of stamina unless specced around blocking. They simply get CC'd (probably double/triple CCd due to that bug) and can't move and are surrounded and run over. Templars have purify, NB's have cloak (nerfed but still) and blur, and sorcs have streak. With these two changes I see DK with the new changes being entirely viable in all circumstances in Cyrodiil.

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3-15-16
POST THIEVES GUILD UPDATE:

Though I was extremely excited for the return of magicka DK in open world, it appears even I cannot ignore the glaring weaknesses the class still has in open world. It was about time to properly assess the changes to the class and see how it stacks up against other classes at this juncture in time.




Main issues magicka DK still has in open world:
(All three work in tandem together to create an overall very frustrating experience)

1. Lack of Healing
- Coagulating blood still functioning below other class heals (BOL) and still nerfed by Battle Spirit. Unable to be viable in Cyrodiil unless stacking health.
2. Lack of Movement & Lack of Ability to remove snares / negative effects
- Unable to escape damage of any kind due to no class movement and perma snared in open world/1vX situation. Works as a double whammy with next bullet
3. Lack of Tankiness
- Unable to tank damage due to lack of heals, blocking stam regen nerf, poorly designed passives that give 10% block damage and lackluster skills that do not offer reduction of damage

Essentially, Magicka DK suffers because it is caught in a purgatory of not being able to escape damage but also not being able to tank damage due to lack of appropriate tanking skills and heals, and lack of movement.



More Below.


Magicka DK to Magicka Templar Comparison:

The lack of movement dwarfs the DK above all others. While magicka templar has this similar problem, it has tools that make it tanky and survivable that allow for balance to be had in a 'stand your ground fashion'.

1. HEALING - BREATH OF LIFE VS. COAGULATING BLOOD - Magicka templar has breath of life, a very solid class heal that allows you to use any weapons and keep it equipped. In comparison, magicka DK has coagulating blood which still does not heal very well and is only viable when stacking a LOT of health on your off bar and relying off of this increased health to artificially buff the weak skill.

2. REMOVING SNARES / NEGATIVE EFFECTS - PURIFY VS. NOTHING - Magicka templar has purify, a wonderful skill that purges negative effects including snares and dots off of you. This allows them to have some movement, and to negate some incoming damage. A great skill to add to the tankiness of Templar. In comparison, magicka DK has absolutely nothing. This is a problem. You are not only unable to move traditionally through the use of streak or cloak or hasty retreat, you are also INFINITELY SNARED so even the slightest movement toward a rock or tree to line of sight is exhausting.

3. TANKING - CHANNELED/RESTORING FOCUS VS. VOLATILE ARMOR - Magicka templar is offered this incredible skill, one morph which gives you a great amount of magicka regen and the other that gives you all of the tanking capabilities you could ever want in a skill. Restoring focus offers: Major Resolve and Major Ward (Physical and Spell resist increase of 5280) as well as Minor Vitality and Minor Protection (healing received by 8% and incoming damage reduction by 8%) Magicka DK offers much less in terms of skills that offer tanking capabilities. Volatile armor is the only comparison and it gives you Major Resolve and Major Ward (Physical and Spell resist increase of 5280). The DK passive of iron skin allows DK's to block an additional 10% damage but when the 0% stamina regen while blocking nerf came with 1.7, this passive is all but circumstantial. Yes, it can be useful in a blocking build but you will have to be built around permablocking to gain any real benefit from it.

4. GAP CLOSER- TOPPLING CHARGE VS. EXTENDED CHAINS- Toppling charge, while at times buggy, does occasionally work to be a functional gap closer. It's main advantage over Extended Chains is that it is a gap closer and a stun. This is a huge disadvantage for DK who has to slot Extended chains to get the gap close, and a secondary skill to CC their target. Most find it easier to run no gap closer at all or invasion from S&B tree instead as it does both. Toppling charge also goes through dodge roll, it will still bring you to the target but not apply the stun. Extended chains will leave the user in place.

Magicka DK to Magicka Sorc Comparison:

1. TANKING - HARDENED WARD VS. IGENOUS SHIELD- Having a shield at all is a bonus to magicka builds as they cannot be crit on and give you an extention of your health on top of your health. However, simple but true, hardened ward scales off of max magicka making it approximately a 10k shield. Igneous shield scales off of max health making it a 3-5k shield. Yes, igneous gives major mending but this is now 25% instead of 30% and the shield is usually removed fairly easily with low amounts of damage.

2. MOBILITY - STREAK VS. NOTHING- Streak is not only a tool of mobility but also a stun. Magicka DK has nothing to compare this to as it is a class intended to be be melee. Sorcs can stack shields and streak to escape danger. DK's are incapable of doing this in any fashion.

3. DAMAGE - CRYSTAL FRAGS VS. FLAME LASH- The ability to have ranged damage gives sorc the clear advantage in this department. Though the DK is not necessarily envisioned to be a burst damage class, in an age where burst damage is still the absolute META and sustain damage is laughable when everyone has infinite resources. Sorc has the clear advantage as it can do damage from afar and also has daedric mines to keep enemies from getting close to them. For a DK, getting into melee range to do damage can be much more dangerous with melee abilities such as WB/Surprise Attack/Concealed/Jabs.

4. GAP CLOSER- STREAK VS. EXTENDED CHAINS - As mentioned previously, streak is a gap closer and a stun. In comparison, the mDK equivalent of extended chains is solely a gap closer without a stun. This is a huge disadvantage for DK who has to slot Extended chains to get the gap close, and a secondary skill to CC their target. Most find it easier to run no gap closer at all or invasion from S&B tree instead as it does both.

Magicka DK to Magicka Nightblade Comparison:

1. DAMAGE - SAP ESSENCE VS. DEEP BREATH- The differential in the cost of these skills in the same gear between my DK and NB is abysmal. Deep breath is nearly 1500 more magicka and is all around a worse skill than sap essence. Sap essence also gives you 20% more healing to yourself and allies for each enemy hit, 8% max magicka just for slotting, gives you 2 ultimate for using, increases the healing done by 3% and also gives you Major Brutality and Major Sorcery (20% weapon/spell damage) In comparison, Deep Breath gives you 12% increased healing *when a draconic power ability is active* and 5% health recovery

2. TANKING- DOUBLE TAKE VS. VOLATILE ARMOR- The NB skill double take gives you Major Evasion (20% dodge chance) for 26 seconds. It also gives you Major Expedition (speed increase of 30%) for 4 seconds. So while it is not a traditional "tanking" skill, it does allow you to mitigate damage as you dodge it and can use the expedition to escape it. In comparison, Volatile Armor gives you Major Resolve and Major Ward (Physical and Spell resist increase of 5280).

3. HEALING- NB SKILLS VS DK SKILLS- Many nb skills are damage skills but also are passively healing skills. In particular, funnel health or swallow soul can crit very high heals for yourself and allies (ive seen 4k swallow soul heal crits on my nb). Soul tether and sap essence also heal the NB passively while doing damage. DK has nothing that compares to this and the only DK healing skill of coagulating blood is passively nerfed by Battle Spirit at this time leaving healing on a NB much easier than healing on a DK.

4. CROWD CONTROL - FEAR VS. FOSSILIZE/TALONS- Fear is a fantastic CC as it is also an AOE and hits 3 targets. It is very useful in keeping multiple targets CC'd when in melee range of you. In comparison, DK does not have an AOE hard CC and instead their hard CC is fossilize, which hits only one target. This is problematic for a melee class, as it is likely that MANY people are on you. Which brings us to talons, a solid skill but merely a soft CC. Though some abilities are not able to go off while in talons, many others are. The lack of hard CC on a DK in comparison with a NB is a definite disadvantage.

Magicka DK to Stamina Classes Comparison:

1. HEALING - VIGOR/RALLY VS. COAGULATING BLOOD- Vigor and Rally combo is a fantastic heal combo available to nearly all stam builds. They both function as hots (heals over time) and are able to be ticking to heal the player while they then turn the tables and do damage. Rally burst heals toward the end of the effect can be incredibly large. In comparison, coagulating blood is lackluster. It is effected by Battle Spirit (I think I've mentioned this ) and acts as a burst heal rather than a HOT. So while it could be potentially functional as a burst heal if working properly, it is fundamentally weaker as it forces you to stop damage to heal whereas Vigor and Rally can tick while you do damage.

2. MOBILITY- HASTY RETREAT & MEDIUM ARMOR VS. NOTHING - Medium armor passives give increased movement speed while sprinting and hasty retreat allows you to dodge roll and get Major Expedition for 5 seconds. In comparison with mDK's inability to move, the movement on a stam build is infinitely better and allows the player to avoid damage through creative line of sight and dodge rolling.

3. REMOVING SNARES / NEGATIVE EFFECTS- SHUFFLE VS. NOTHING - Shuffle increases your dodge chance by 20%. It also removes and grants immunity to snares, scaling up with how many pieces of medium armor you are wearing. Compare this with the mDK's inability to move OR remove snares and then understand why mDK's take infinitely more damage than stam builds.

In conclusion, this has been my assessment of Magicka DK in comparison with all other magicka and stamina classes. As much as I love it, the class is still very desperate for some fixes if it is to ever be viable in open world Cyrodiil again (in terms of solo/small group/1vX). In large group gameplay, magicka dk can perform well as it has many tools it needs to succeed. However the DK is fiercely dependent on its group mates to heal and break snares which seems incredibly unfair as all other specs have viable ways of doing this themselves.

In open world, as a solo magicka DK, I have seen even the best of players get shpooped on due to the 3 weaknesses I listed above: Lack of Healing, Lack of Movement, Lack of Tankiness. It is important that ZOS address the clear and distinct weakness of this class and provide changes so that it might be equally viable to other specs in Cyrodiil. Though the vision for the class may be tanky and "stand your ground" - it is important to remember and analyze that ALL OTHER CLASSES can do HIGH damage and have HIGH mobility (except for templar with mobility, but purify, restoring focus allows this as indicated above). If DK is to be the tanky, stand your ground class, we will need more than "Block 10% additional damage" and "Major Resolve and Major Ward" from Volatile Armor to save us. It will need to be structured entirely different than every other class in the game at this point and be offered viable alternatives if we are not to ever move. Playing a Magicka DK should not be something that people want to do entirely for nostalgia sake, and that's much of what I see lately. Magicka DK should be a viable and fun class to play that offers a different style of gameplay than others. Currently it is still at the bottom of the food chain.

Please consider these changes ZOS: @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

- Reflective wings grants major expedition for 4s.
- Miss chance or dodge chance when standing in Cinder Storm
- Battle Spirit not affecting Dragon Blood
- Extended Chains being a traditional gap closer with stun & CC immunity afterwards

Anyone with any input please feel free to comment and I will try to discuss and analyze this going forward.


Love Always,
Jules

Axyredo

i agree Jules. zos really hates DKs

Mythk

Nerf sorc

Crystelle

As someone who played dk from launch and recently rerolled sorc because of the utter destruction of what the class was once, dk needs some serious buffs. Dk doesn't even come close to the other classes in PvP and in PvE it's better to just run stamplars for dps now. Buff dk.

Velukodi

Agreed.

Teargrants

Just reroll to the Wrecking Blow class, it's what ZOS wants.

Scyantific

Mythk wrote: »

Buff DK back up to pre 1.5/post batswarm+standard+talons

FTFY

BigTone

Jules wrote: »

((Sidebar: Truth be told, the fact that dual wield gives spell damage at all is completely nonsensical. This means that magicka users who desire max spell damage (*which is of course STILL so much harder to stack than weapon damage*) are pidgeonholed into equipping a weapon for which they do not receive advantages from most of the passives.))

This drives me insane. I play a dual wielding caster

Honestly, I think making GDB unaffected by battle spirit makes sense since it is based off of a percentage. That would go a long way to fixing the DK. The blocking changes had to happen IMO. Could you imagine going up against a perma blocker with this battle spirit?

The rampant use of cloak and purge to remove DoTs really hurts the class, as DKs have so many crippling and powerful DoTs, which make them great PVE dps since bosses can't purge.

I don't think DKs need an escape, instead something should be done to help them tank damage better. They should be the ultimate in-your-face class.

Talcyndl

Nice write up. You can add me to the list of those wholly in agreement.

Now I'm back to leveling my NB.

Vynn

ZOS, please give this post some serious consideration.

Azarath_tiberius

Well said Jules. ZOS has a lot of work to do to make DK a decent class again. Which I doubt they 'll ever manage to do...

Most of the DK abilities either have been nerfed to the ground OR they were partially / never useful. Around 9 out of 18 DK skills + ultimates have been nerfed in a way. Just for comparison, no other class has had so many nerfs till now . In the contrary, every single other class has only gotten nice class buffs and better in general, except DKs.. What did DK get from 1.7?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Earthen Heart
  • Obsidian Shard: Increased the healing effect radius of this ability to 8 meters from 5 meters.

Yeeaaah... Thanks for nothing.

I was seriously thinking what else could one say about DK, but i think you pretty much have everything covered @Jules . Only thing that came to mind was that they should revert banners cost back to 200 ultimate, but thats just my opinion.

Also mandatory tag: @ZOS_RichLambert , @ZOS_GinaBruno + that game designer we have (can't remember his name), that doesn't know jack **** about the game.

Ghostbane

Lord_Hev

@ZOS_RichLambert

@ZOS_GinaBruno



Such a well written and eloquent post. This thread cannot be ignored, and must be acknowledged by ZOS. WTF are you guys doing to the DK class?

Joy_Division

Agree 100%

blabafat

Good post, but I think some DK's are ONLY looking at the negative sides...and fail to consider the positive

Such as:

DK's have the 2nd best ultimates
DK's have good resource management
DK's have the best root in the game

MaximillianDiE

Very well put - I agree with everything you've put in your post. Magicka DK is definitely hard mode at the moment.

Lord_Hev

blabafat wrote: »

Good post, but I think some DK's are ONLY looking at the negative sides...and fail to consider the positive

Such as:

DK's have the 2nd best ultimates
DK's have good resource management
DK's have the best root in the game

1.) What? Leap? That's for stam DKs that hit really really hard.
2.) Meh. Only if you're a Vamp and use cheap bats
3.) Even when they "fix" talons, Encase is still waaay better. You can encase an entire zerg

Armitas

Perfect.

Now we just need to get ZOS's attention, which given how long that took in the talon thread is worrisome. I think the only reason it got attention at all is someone posted in the general forums linking to it. An hour or two later we got a response.

It is evident that they have completely lost touch with the DK playerbase, which is entirely expected when you neither seek out their feedback nor enter where it's given...even on your own PTS.

Aunatar

Give a cookie to this OP.
I totally agree. Whip hits like a little girl. Please, give DK's some love.

Jules

Armitas wrote: »

Perfect.

Now we just need to get ZOS's attention, which given how long that took in the talon thread is worrisome. I think the only reason it got attention at all is someone posted in the general forums linking to it. An hour or two later we got a response. Apparently the PvP section is a no-go-zone.

We can do that

Yonkit

blabafat wrote: »

Good post, but I think some DK's are ONLY looking at the negative sides...and fail to consider the positive

Such as:

DK's have the 2nd best ultimates
DK's have good resource management
DK's have the best root in the game

Take Flight - Good Burst, Incredibly easy to negate all damage and/or just get out of the locale of the impact.
Standard of Might - Is good for the resource regen from battle roar otherwise it's utter troll for both user and victim.
Magma Shell - Lol wut? People use this? Either way this does not cap damage as per the tooltip at all and you can still easily be killed with it active.

Resource management was gutted, go play your Dk and look at most of the skill costs in full light armor with seducer, they're oddly higher than every other magicka class. Sure, we CAN get good resource management if we have a decent amount of CP and use gear for it, but it's much harder now.

A blockable root that was an intended change, even though it's being reverted, THEY INTENDED, for it to be blockable.


I love you Blab, I do, but... Just stahp. Plz. Plz stahp. All your points are bad ones


As for your post @Jules I agree with everything, you and Qaevir both know I've pretty much quit ESO till it's better.

OrphanHelgen

I read your post carefully, and will support you by sharing some of my own experience.
I have 73 days played on my main Stamina Orc DPS Dragonknight, have been playing with high weapon dmg.
Every day, I test new builds and setups: 2H and bow, 2H and DW, double 2H, 1H shield and DW, you name it. I have tested it all, and still testing and changing my build.

The more experience I get, the less DK abilities I use. Because they all are weaker then the weapon skills and fighters guild skills.

The 5% stamina back from earthen hearth are not noticeable. Seriously. It is so weak it can't even be in the sustain category.

The two stamina dots are also weaker then then rapid strikes, so I don't see a reason for putting a dot then rapid strike, if rapid strike itself do more dmg then the dot. So its just a waste of a skill and lower dps.

They lack gap closer and utility / mobility. The chains are not to trust, and have magicka cost.

I don't use any DK skill anymore, they are just too weak. Everything comes from weapon skills or fighters guild.

The only good thing about DK, is the stamina I get back from using ultimate. It is really nice and let me go more dmg instead of stamina regen, tho I still need 6 medium pieces. But this I have seen people complain about, so its not just zenimax who "hates" DK, I think its opposite, its the noob crybabies who tries to jump into a DK and oneshot, and they get a standard in their face and since they are glass cannon, like 95% of you out there, they die pretty fast and cry for help and scream for nerf.

Well, if you are that stupid to jump into a class made for melee, with no mobility or cap close, you really should tattoo a L2P in your face mirrored, so every time you look in the mirror you will remind yourself how you destroyed all the DKs out there by screaming nerf without knowing how to play.

To sum up: DK are a really cool class, and looks like they are made to be a strong melee class. but other classes have all what Dk needs, as well as high mobility. The earthen heart passives sounds nice, but have to BE in combat for it to work, witch make them even weaker.

Stam morph for whip and / or chains. Some passive movement speed or something for some mobility (they have slow in ardent flame, really good). Reduce standard of might cost or higher range then a roll dodge range. Idk, just something.. anything. The chain CC from night blades lately are making me sick !

Yonkit

Yonkit wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

Good post, but I think some DK's are ONLY looking at the negative sides...and fail to consider the positive

Such as:

DK's have the 2nd best ultimates
DK's have good resource management
DK's have the best root in the game

Take Flight - Good Burst, Incredibly easy to negate all damage and/or just get out of the locale of the impact.
Standard of Might - Is good for the resource regen from battle roar otherwise it's utter troll for both user and victim.
Magma Shell - Lol wut? People use this? Either way this does not cap damage as per the tooltip at all and you can still easily be killed with it active.

Resource management was gutted, go play your Dk and look at most of the skill costs in full light armor with seducer, they're oddly higher than every other magicka class. Sure, we CAN get good resource management if we have a decent amount of CP and use gear for it, but it's much harder now.

A blockable root that was an intended change, even though it's being reverted, THEY INTENDED, for it to be blockable.


I love you Blab, I do, but... Just stahp. Plz. Plz stahp. All your points are bad ones


As for your post @Jules I agree with everything, you and Qaevir both know I've pretty much quit ESO till it's better.

You know on second thought, I might just spend more time on my DK and just figure out a new way to play it. Challenge accepted!

Yolokin_Swagonborn

As someone who hated easymode light armor permablock DKs of 1.5, I agree with this post. There is definitely a place for tanky builds that use block in the meta. I like the rock-paper-scissors model but you can't soften the rock or dull the scissors. No escape is an acceptable drawback as long as Templars/DKs can tank and heal. Remove that and there is no reason to play them.

Any issues with DK were fixed in early 1.6 when ZOS changed ultimate gain and increased the penalty for blocking/rolling/ etc if you weren't wearing the appropriate armor. They should have stopped there. Early 1.6 was actually pretty balanced before everyone got champion points.

Then perma-block, perma-dodge, perma-everything started and the nerfbat started flying around like a nerfnado and has never stopped.

The real issue with this game is the champion system. It is the reason for all these nerfs. More info here in DeanTheCat's excellent post.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219283/the-root-of-the-problem-a-lack-of-limits/p1

Azarath_tiberius

blabafat wrote: »

Good post, but I think some DK's are ONLY looking at the negative sides...and fail to consider the positive

Such as:

DK's have the 2nd best ultimates
DK's have good resource management
DK's have the best root in the game

1) Maybe. Still too costly imo.

2) If you use a cheap ultimate, the resources you get back are a joke. And on the other hand to use banner it takes forever to get up.

3) You can purge, shield and now block through it. Enough said.


Also, even if you are right that still doesn't resolve the problems DKs have as a class. A gap closer, a useful execute, stamina morphs that we can use in PvP (I believe we all had enough of DKs spaming WB .. But on the other hand what else can they do?.. Give us a stamina whip!), an escape or a reliable self heal are really needed. Every single other class has some those things, why must DKs be an exception?

Ishammael

Good post! Agreed completely.

Dynamic ultimate would go a long way to helping DK

Alucardo

Been maining DK for about a week and fkn loving it so far. Of course I'm not an old DK player, so I won't share the same frustrations, but I'm not saying they aren't there.
I do run with S+B on both bars and found DPS to be of no issue so far, and it also gives me that cheap costing and useful gap closer.
The main problems I'm facing is, Obsidian Shield seems kind of useless, and Dragon Blood IS useless. If I wasn't rolling with S+B I'd expect my life expectancy to be extremely low.
Another problem I'm facing is that quite a few of the helpful skills are magicka based and cost quite a lot, yet I need to deck out my stamina to be useful, so I'm running out of magicka fast.. especially if I'm using wings. I used defensive stance for a while, but sometimes wings to block consecutive attacks instead of recasting after every blast. Though I do like how def stance costs stamina and quite a small amount, so maybe I'll go back. That reflective scale animation is so damn cool though.

The shorter, more to the point version:

- My main shield blows
- Survivability is terrible unless you want to succumb to 2h for Rally (I hate being forced into that tree tbh) because DB sucks
- I feel like I need to balance my points out between magicka, stamina and health, instead of just 20% health, 80% stamina for example. If Battle Roar didn't exist this would be a greater issue.

Overall DK is a lot of fun, and the playstyle seems more dynamic and exciting than I was used to on NB. I'm definitely winning more fights and the DoTs are awesome.
I do feel like this class would benefit more from Alliance skills (purge/vigor), but unfortunately I'm not quite there yet.

Tomato

Great post! Most DK's are stuck with running heavy armor.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

In about a year from now, after Nightblades are nerfed into the ground, I wonder if they too are going to make so many glory days nostalgia posts.

Mythk

blabafat wrote: »

Good post, but I think some DK's are ONLY looking at the negative sides...and fail to consider the positive

Such as:

DK's have the 2nd best ultimates
DK's have good resource management
DK's have the best root in the game

Resource sustain is just an issue of champion points and gear as far as this patch goes - most people can sustain with no thought at all if they put on the right gear.

As for ultimates, standard got relatively gutted for PvP, being a 250 cost, and in PvE most players will use meteor because it is cheaper and gives ultimate back on hits. Dragon leap is good, but in all honesty it is just a knock off version of incapacitating strike. Nightblades by far have superior ultimates in PvP (not even going to mention how bad the sorcerer and templar ultimates are).

And for the best class based root in the game, encase by far takes the cake for this one. It roots in a path in front of the caster and then snares after the effect ends - much better than a caster AoE root that DKs have (plus, encase is not blockable).

Radolfus

I have been playing DK since launch and I agree with this. Nice write-up You covered the aspects of your post very well.