There CANNOT be access gates to the Imperial City paid DLC

Sharee

Enodoc wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

So tired of reading insulting and foot-stampy posts from the type of die hard PvP'ers who think the expansion was meant just for them.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S FOR EVERYONE.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

It isn't YOUR expansion, it's for anyone.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.

I don't really see how it can be meant for the PvP player when it has no PvP content. But maybe that's just me.

Players fighting each other over valuable resources in a dangerous environment - that's PvP content in my book.

I don't agree - players fighting each other is open PvP, not PvP content; PvP content requires there to be objectives and tasks that can only be completed by doing PvP, and reward you for that PvP, and Imperial City doesn't have any of that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

In my opinion, as long as the content gives a meaningful reason for players to fight other players, it qualifies as PvP content, regardless of whether that 'meaningful reason' is an arbitrary goal like capturing the flag, or a natural goal like collecting TV stones from enemies.

Jasonn

I haven’t read through all the previous 20 pages however I’d like to respond to the original post by saying ‘There MUST be access gates to the Imperial City paid DLC’.

The foundations for the original post are fundamentally flawed and based on irrelevant statistics.

Cyrodiil combat, activity and population will change dramatically when IC goes live. The statistics will look completely different when an entire faction’s population are in IC and not in Cyrodiil defending their keeps.

I’m sure it’s been mentioned but Imperial City and Cyrodiil are modelled on a proven mechanic taken from from Dark Age of Camelot and their Darkness Falls dungeon, a mechanic which has given me some of my very best gaming memories even to this day.

Stop the complaining and give it a go as the developers intended and Zenimax, if this truly is ‘meant for the PVP player’, access MUST be linked to Cyrodiil. To do otherwise makes Cyrodiil essentially worthless and actually harms the PVP player’s experience.

Enodoc

Sharee wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

So tired of reading insulting and foot-stampy posts from the type of die hard PvP'ers who think the expansion was meant just for them.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S FOR EVERYONE.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

It isn't YOUR expansion, it's for anyone.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.

I don't really see how it can be meant for the PvP player when it has no PvP content. But maybe that's just me.

Players fighting each other over valuable resources in a dangerous environment - that's PvP content in my book.

I don't agree - players fighting each other is open PvP, not PvP content; PvP content requires there to be objectives and tasks that can only be completed by doing PvP, and reward you for that PvP, and Imperial City doesn't have any of that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Sure.

In my opinion, as long as the content gives a meaningful reason for players to fight other players, it qualifies as PvP content, regardless of whether that 'meaningful reason' is an arbitrary goal like capturing the flag, or a natural goal like collecting TV stones from enemies.

I see TV stones as an incentive to do PvP, but since they don't exist without PvE (all TV stones are sourced from PvE), I don't see that as PvP content. Imperial City to me is PvE content with open PvP thrown over the top; I would have much preferred it to also include structured PvP content, such as District Control, and then it would be a proper PvP/PvE DLC.

Sharee

Enodoc wrote: »

I see TV stones as an incentive to do PvP, but since they don't exist without PvE (all TV stones are sourced from PvE), I don't see that as PvP content.

They don't exist without PvP either. There is no way to gather them without exposing yourself to PvP first.

Additionally, even tho the original source is mob drops, like, say, gold, TV stones have the unprecedented attribute of being lootable off one player to another. This is such a huge change compared to usual 'PvE content' that where they originally came from seems almost insignificant in comparison.

Calling them 'mere PvE content' like they were not any different from gold, etc. seems... unjustified

byrom101b16_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

So tired of reading insulting and foot-stampy posts from the type of die hard PvP'ers who think the expansion was meant just for them.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S FOR EVERYONE.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

It isn't YOUR expansion, it's for anyone.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.

It doesn't matter what ZOS SAY, it's what they DO that matters Sharee...

... and they stuck a bunch of PvE stuff into a 'PvP' expansion with an economy (Tel Var Stones) based on PvE kills.

Actions speak louder than words, so now, there is no Cyrodiil gating because they've realised their mistake.

So it is irrelevant what they said, it's only relevant what they are now doing.

Case closed.

If the guy who designed it says it is meant for PvP players, then it is meant for PvP players. There is no higher authority on that matter.

He has the same level of authority and knowledge as the guy who said the game would remain with a subscription payment model and have regular updates paid for by that model. Or the people who said 'play how you want to play' was a central design principle.

If you blindly believe what you are spoon fed by 'authority figures' instead of figuring stuff out for yourself, you set yourself up for disappointment... if you don't manage to realise that you are being suckered in the first place of course...

Sharee

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

So tired of reading insulting and foot-stampy posts from the type of die hard PvP'ers who think the expansion was meant just for them.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S FOR EVERYONE.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

It isn't YOUR expansion, it's for anyone.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.

It doesn't matter what ZOS SAY, it's what they DO that matters Sharee...

... and they stuck a bunch of PvE stuff into a 'PvP' expansion with an economy (Tel Var Stones) based on PvE kills.

Actions speak louder than words, so now, there is no Cyrodiil gating because they've realised their mistake.

So it is irrelevant what they said, it's only relevant what they are now doing.

Case closed.

If the guy who designed it says it is meant for PvP players, then it is meant for PvP players. There is no higher authority on that matter.

He has the same level of authority and knowledge as the guy who said the game would remain with a subscription payment model and have regular updates paid for by that model.

One of them is describing his past work and the intent behind it, i.e. what has already happened.
The other is talking about future, i.e. something that is inherently uncertain.

'Same level of knowledge' my behind.

(Apologies for not responding to whatever your reply will be. It is because i will no longer able to see your posts.)

byrom101b16_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

So tired of reading insulting and foot-stampy posts from the type of die hard PvP'ers who think the expansion was meant just for them.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S FOR EVERYONE.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

It isn't YOUR expansion, it's for anyone.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.

It doesn't matter what ZOS SAY, it's what they DO that matters Sharee...

... and they stuck a bunch of PvE stuff into a 'PvP' expansion with an economy (Tel Var Stones) based on PvE kills.

Actions speak louder than words, so now, there is no Cyrodiil gating because they've realised their mistake.

So it is irrelevant what they said, it's only relevant what they are now doing.

Case closed.

If the guy who designed it says it is meant for PvP players, then it is meant for PvP players. There is no higher authority on that matter.

He has the same level of authority and knowledge as the guy who said the game would remain with a subscription payment model and have regular updates paid for by that model.

One of them is describing his past work and the intent behind it, i.e. what has already happened.
The other is talking about future, i.e. something that is inherently uncertain.

'Same level of knowledge' my behind.

I suggest you inspect your 'behind' for fatal errors as you seem to be using it for the purposes of comprehension.

ZOS have already changed the access meta, despite the fact they said it would be gated. They have as a matter of fact, not conjecture, put significant and inextricable PvE elements into their 'PvP' expansion. They have instanced PvE DUNGEONS in their 'PvP' expansion.

Fill in the gaps Sharee: ...can't ....wood.... trees.

If you are going to make a habit of stalking all my posts with contrary opinions, at least try to make it sound like you are using some kind of logic.

Legalize_PvP

I actually signed up for this forum to post in this particular thread.

I'm sick of the carebare approach taken to PvE. Imperial city should have access restrictions. It should be a challenge to get in, and it should take an alliance working together to do it.

Stikato

Legalize_PvP wrote: »

I actually signed up for this forum to post in this particular thread.

I'm sick of the carebare approach taken to PvE. Imperial city should have access restrictions. It should be a challenge to get in, and it should take an alliance working together to do it.

I hear you dude. Unfortunately, people are just so convinced that they will never be able to get in. Or that they won't be able to get in at the exact moment they want to. And the fact that this might depend on their alliance mates drives them crazy.

Even though all of this was tried in DAOC. And even though IC is basically based on DF in that game. Even though that game had harsher access restrictions. And even though that dungeon is regarded as a high point in that legendary game.

It has been done before. It worked. Unbelievably well. Not just as a reward dungeon, but as a dynamic population control in pvp. But people continue to rely on simple arguments: "I don't pay for rewards, my gameplay shouldn't rely on my alliance mates, etc etc."

When this all started, we wanted to play in virtual worlds. In worlds where forces--beyond our control--dictated how we would use our own powers to shape our characters and world. Where one day, "hey, we can go to Imperial City!" and one day "oh, its closed, let's try to open it" was a cool state of affairs because it meant things were dynamically different based on the actions of the world we played in. Even in ESO, if you don't like the world (campaign) you can change to another one!

I guess most players don't want to play in worlds anymore. Not being able to go to a given zone on a given day is unacceptable. Because they paid good money. And they didn't play money to play in a world. They paid money to play a game.

This is why the big MMOs are dying. This is why no one comes out with unique concepts anymore. This is why subscriptions are out, and micro-pays are in. A lot of us, old and new, keep holding out for games that require effort, have penalties and rewards, require teamwork, and have consequences for both success and failure. ESO doesn't even have a rez sickness. You can teleport anywhere, from anywhere. Riding on a horse for 2 minutes is seen as a chore, rather than a cool experience.

On the 31st, I guess these people that just want to play a game will get what they want. We will all load up our patchers, and point them at a company that has continued to abandoned promises and principles as fast as it loses employees. We will all travel into the great Imperial City, the holy expansion that has been held out a shining light to guide us through the months of bugs, imbalances, lag, and--worst of all--silence. Cyrodiil, one of the most beautiful, well-designed zones I have ever seen (albeit it is laggy) will sit empty. We will all rush the streets of IC and turn them into an endless respawn bloodbath with some reward, a little consequence, and maybe a little strategy.

After a couple of hours, we may wonder why it just isn't any fun.

ThyIronFist

Oh for the love of god, I can't believe some of you people...

Taking keeps IS boring. Besieging keeps IS boring. You'll learn that when you've played the game for over a year, it's pointless. Keeps constantly change faction all the time so every single time an entire faction or factions are locked out of the Imperial City. Not only that, when a campaign is on locked population every keep siege ends into a lagfest.

PC players, mostly PvPers, have been getting the short end of the stick by ZOS ever since the game released, and now we need keeps to gain access to the promised content that we have been waiting for for over a year.

I loved playing in the Imperial City on the PTS and it is complete nonsense and utter bollocks to be locked out of content just because your faction can't take any keeps.

Almost 2 years of lag, poor performance and no content in Cyrodiil... and then we need keeps to access some PvP content... just lol.

Casdha

Well the simple fact of the matter is ZOS is in business to make money. If you want open access gone or only available at launch for a trial period then the folks advocating this need to come up with better arguments than name calling. Legitimate concerns and the fact that they have the numbers of who plays, and pays, what is the very thing that got ZOS to make the decision to have open access at launch in the first place.

I can take the argument that this is only a bait and switch to get up front sales then gates will be closed, It is logical according to past actions by ZOS and I almost expect this as long as sales and purchaser play style allows for it, but if PvE is where the majority of money comes from on sales then you might as well give it up.

As far as the PvE vs PvP argument goes, I wouldn't put it past ZOS, at some point, to be using IC to test out their PvP and PvE flag rules before finalizing their justice system and adding the Dark Brotherhood content. PTS couldn't really test the way these work as well as IC could before applying it Tamriel wide.

Elsonso

Enodoc wrote: »

I see TV stones as an incentive to do PvP, but since they don't exist without PvE (all TV stones are sourced from PvE), I don't see that as PvP content. Imperial City to me is PvE content with open PvP thrown over the top; I would have much preferred it to also include structured PvP content, such as District Control, and then it would be a proper PvP/PvE DLC.

Yeah, as a PVE person who dabbles in PVP, I do not see Tel Var Stones as PVE. They might be sourced by killing PVE mobs, but they are definitely there for the PVP players, not the PVE players. It may not have property to win, like Cyrodiil, but Imperial City is definitely a PVP zone, and PVE players forget that at their own peril.

I do not plan to purchase the Imperial City DLC (outside of ESO Plus) and will probably spend very little time even thinking about Imperial City as I play. I see the Imperial City as a honey pot for PVE players so that PVP players have something to do. There is no requirement for any PVP player to kill a single PVE mob. The PVE mobs exist to supply Tel Var stones and to make the PVP (player-player battles) more tactically interesting. All the purists have to do is avoid the PVE mobs and wait for some PVE sheep players to come by and take their sweet rolls.

The odds are significantly improved for the PVE player if they latch onto a gated Campaign where they have access to the Imperial City. That will not be the case and the PVP player will have plenty to do. For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

Stikato

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Oh for the love of god, I can't believe some of you people...

Taking keeps IS boring. Besieging keeps IS boring. You'll learn that when you've played the game for over a year, it's pointless. Keeps constantly change faction all the time so every single time an entire faction or factions are locked out of the Imperial City. Not only that, when a campaign is on locked population every keep siege ends into a lagfest.

PC players, mostly PvPers, have been getting the short end of the stick by ZOS ever since the game released, and now we need keeps to gain access to the promised content that we have been waiting for for over a year.

I loved playing in the Imperial City on the PTS and it is complete nonsense and utter bollocks to be locked out of content just because your faction can't take any keeps.

Almost 2 years of lag, poor performance and no content in Cyrodiil... and then we need keeps to access some PvP content... just lol.

Don't worry dude, IC access will be open to all 24/7. You guys got what you wanted. You will never have to siege a keep again. Or be in Cyrodiil for that matter.

Stikato

Casdha wrote: »

Well the simple fact of the matter is ZOS is in business to make money. If you want open access gone or only available at launch for a trial period then the folks advocating this need to come up with better arguments than name calling. Legitimate concerns and the fact that they have the numbers of who plays, and pays, what is the very thing that got ZOS to make the decision to have open access at launch in the first place.

I can take the argument that this is only a bait and switch to get up front sales then gates will be closed, It is logical according to past actions by ZOS and I almost expect this as long as sales and purchaser play style allows for it, but if PvE is where the majority of money comes from on sales then you might as well give it up.

As far as the PvE vs PvP argument goes, I wouldn't put it past ZOS, at some point, to be using IC to test out their PvP and PvE flag rules before finalizing their justice system and adding the Dark Brotherhood content. PTS couldn't really test the way these work as well as IC could before applying it Tamriel wide.

The argument is simple:

1. Open access IC = Everyone will be in IC. Zergs, gankers, griefers. Everyone will be there. Cyrodiil will die.
2. Restriced IC = Some people will be in IC. It will be more of Pve zone with some random PvP. Until someone else takes control, and that's where the fun starts. Cyrodiil has meaning.

Just about every single person playing this game still is going to buy the DLC. 80%+ I would wager. I don't think access rules are going to make a difference. What will make a difference, in the future, is if the game is fun. I don't think Imperial Zerg City is going to be that much fun if everyone is there 24/7.

Darlgon

lordrichter wrote: »

There is no requirement for any PVP player to kill a single PVE mob. The PVE mobs exist to supply Tel Var stones and to make the PVP (player-player battles) more tactically interesting. All the purists have to do is avoid the PVE mobs and wait for some PVE sheep players to come by and take their sweet rolls.

Kinda surprised to hear that thought from you Richter. With the concentration of mobs in the districts, AvA players will HAVE to kills PVE mobs, if nothing else, to get out of combat. (except for the nightblade gods, of course.)

Darlgon

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Oh for the love of god, I can't believe some of you people...

Taking keeps IS boring. Besieging keeps IS boring.
...
Almost 2 years of lag, poor performance and no content in Cyrodiil... and then we need keeps to access some PvP content... just lol.

Wow.. PV Door much? Even those of us who SUCK at PVP like good defences and fights at keeps against players. The only time its boring is when you take the 3-18th keep in a campaign with no enemy players, zerg with 48-60 players with you vs a small number of defenders, or have defenders who just run away from the keep when you hit the walls.

Leandor

Darlgon wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Oh for the love of god, I can't believe some of you people...

Taking keeps IS boring. Besieging keeps IS boring.
...
Almost 2 years of lag, poor performance and no content in Cyrodiil... and then we need keeps to access some PvP content... just lol.

Wow.. PV Door much? Even those of us who SUCK at PVP like good defences and fights at keeps against players. The only time its boring is when you take the 3-18th keep in a campaign with no enemy players, zerg with 48-60 players with you vs a small number of defenders, or have defenders who just run away from the keep when you hit the walls.

I still do remember the raids led by Sainur Ironfist on Auriel's Bow. Calling him a "PvDoorer" is maybe the wrong approach, mate.

Sallington

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Oh for the love of god, I can't believe some of you people...

Taking keeps IS boring. Besieging keeps IS boring. You'll learn that when you've played the game for over a year, it's pointless. Keeps constantly change faction all the time so every single time an entire faction or factions are locked out of the Imperial City. Not only that, when a campaign is on locked population every keep siege ends into a lagfest.

PC players, mostly PvPers, have been getting the short end of the stick by ZOS ever since the game released, and now we need keeps to gain access to the promised content that we have been waiting for for over a year.

I loved playing in the Imperial City on the PTS and it is complete nonsense and utter bollocks to be locked out of content just because your faction can't take any keeps.

Almost 2 years of lag, poor performance and no content in Cyrodiil... and then we need keeps to access some PvP content... just lol.

First, the need for your faction to have certain keeps to access IC would actually make sieges LESS boring, since they now have much more meaning.

Also, as far as lag goes, what do you think is going to happen when all 3 factions are allowed to pile into IC (a much smaller area than the whole of Cyrodil)????

Casdha

Stikato wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Well the simple fact of the matter is ZOS is in business to make money. If you want open access gone or only available at launch for a trial period then the folks advocating this need to come up with better arguments than name calling. Legitimate concerns and the fact that they have the numbers of who plays, and pays, what is the very thing that got ZOS to make the decision to have open access at launch in the first place.

I can take the argument that this is only a bait and switch to get up front sales then gates will be closed, It is logical according to past actions by ZOS and I almost expect this as long as sales and purchaser play style allows for it, but if PvE is where the majority of money comes from on sales then you might as well give it up.

As far as the PvE vs PvP argument goes, I wouldn't put it past ZOS, at some point, to be using IC to test out their PvP and PvE flag rules before finalizing their justice system and adding the Dark Brotherhood content. PTS couldn't really test the way these work as well as IC could before applying it Tamriel wide.

The argument is simple:

1. Open access IC = Everyone will be in IC. Zergs, gankers, griefers. Everyone will be there. Cyrodiil will die.
2. Restriced IC = Some people will be in IC. It will be more of Pve zone with some random PvP. Until someone else takes control, and that's where the fun starts. Cyrodiil has meaning.

Just about every single person playing this game still is going to buy the DLC. 80%+ I would wager. I don't think access rules are going to make a difference. What will make a difference, in the future, is if the game is fun. I don't think Imperial Zerg City is going to be that much fun if everyone is there 24/7.

This is a legitimate argument

but I'd also point to this one:

lordrichter wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I see TV stones as an incentive to do PvP, but since they don't exist without PvE (all TV stones are sourced from PvE), I don't see that as PvP content. Imperial City to me is PvE content with open PvP thrown over the top; I would have much preferred it to also include structured PvP content, such as District Control, and then it would be a proper PvP/PvE DLC.

Yeah, as a PVE person who dabbles in PVP, I do not see Tel Var Stones as PVE. They might be sourced by killing PVE mobs, but they are definitely there for the PVP players, not the PVE players. It may not have property to win, like Cyrodiil, but Imperial City is definitely a PVP zone, and PVE players forget that at their own peril.

I do not plan to purchase the Imperial City DLC (outside of ESO Plus) and will probably spend very little time even thinking about Imperial City as I play. I see the Imperial City as a honey pot for PVE players so that PVP players have something to do. There is no requirement for any PVP player to kill a single PVE mob. The PVE mobs exist to supply Tel Var stones and to make the PVP (player-player battles) more tactically interesting. All the purists have to do is avoid the PVE mobs and wait for some PVE sheep players to come by and take their sweet rolls.

The odds are significantly improved for the PVE player if they latch onto a gated Campaign where they have access to the Imperial City. That will not be the case and the PVP player will have plenty to do. For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

It is funny how the last paragraph matches the above quote but both seem to be vying for a different outcome.

Edit: I shouldn't have said vying for a different outcome but rather that they show both sides of the same coin.

Lorkhan

leave one campaign access free, the others should be 6keep required

Stikato

Casdha wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Well the simple fact of the matter is ZOS is in business to make money. If you want open access gone or only available at launch for a trial period then the folks advocating this need to come up with better arguments than name calling. Legitimate concerns and the fact that they have the numbers of who plays, and pays, what is the very thing that got ZOS to make the decision to have open access at launch in the first place.

I can take the argument that this is only a bait and switch to get up front sales then gates will be closed, It is logical according to past actions by ZOS and I almost expect this as long as sales and purchaser play style allows for it, but if PvE is where the majority of money comes from on sales then you might as well give it up.

As far as the PvE vs PvP argument goes, I wouldn't put it past ZOS, at some point, to be using IC to test out their PvP and PvE flag rules before finalizing their justice system and adding the Dark Brotherhood content. PTS couldn't really test the way these work as well as IC could before applying it Tamriel wide.

The argument is simple:

1. Open access IC = Everyone will be in IC. Zergs, gankers, griefers. Everyone will be there. Cyrodiil will die.
2. Restriced IC = Some people will be in IC. It will be more of Pve zone with some random PvP. Until someone else takes control, and that's where the fun starts. Cyrodiil has meaning.

Just about every single person playing this game still is going to buy the DLC. 80%+ I would wager. I don't think access rules are going to make a difference. What will make a difference, in the future, is if the game is fun. I don't think Imperial Zerg City is going to be that much fun if everyone is there 24/7.

This is a legitimate argument

but I'd also point to this one:

lordrichter wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I see TV stones as an incentive to do PvP, but since they don't exist without PvE (all TV stones are sourced from PvE), I don't see that as PvP content. Imperial City to me is PvE content with open PvP thrown over the top; I would have much preferred it to also include structured PvP content, such as District Control, and then it would be a proper PvP/PvE DLC.

Yeah, as a PVE person who dabbles in PVP, I do not see Tel Var Stones as PVE. They might be sourced by killing PVE mobs, but they are definitely there for the PVP players, not the PVE players. It may not have property to win, like Cyrodiil, but Imperial City is definitely a PVP zone, and PVE players forget that at their own peril.

I do not plan to purchase the Imperial City DLC (outside of ESO Plus) and will probably spend very little time even thinking about Imperial City as I play. I see the Imperial City as a honey pot for PVE players so that PVP players have something to do. There is no requirement for any PVP player to kill a single PVE mob. The PVE mobs exist to supply Tel Var stones and to make the PVP (player-player battles) more tactically interesting. All the purists have to do is avoid the PVE mobs and wait for some PVE sheep players to come by and take their sweet rolls.

The odds are significantly improved for the PVE player if they latch onto a gated Campaign where they have access to the Imperial City. That will not be the case and the PVP player will have plenty to do. For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

It is funny how the last paragraph matches the above quote but both seem to be vying for a different outcome.

Edit: I shouldn't have said vying for a different outcome but rather that they show both sides of the same coin.

I don't agree with the second quote very much. TV stones and the pve mobs are going to be resources for BOTH pve and pvp players. They are the only ways to make V16 gear.

The last paragraph though, you are right. It would be far safer for a pve player to be in an instance of IC that they have gated access to. Its kind of ironic--no one wants to take keeps for IC, because they don't want to pvp for their pve access. So instead we are going to get a pvp free for all killing zone 24/7 in IC.

wraith808

Enodoc wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

So tired of reading insulting and foot-stampy posts from the type of die hard PvP'ers who think the expansion was meant just for them.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S FOR EVERYONE.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

It isn't YOUR expansion, it's for anyone.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.

I don't really see how it can be meant for the PvP player when it has no PvP content. But maybe that's just me.

Players fighting each other over valuable resources in a dangerous environment - that's PvP content in my book.

I don't agree - players fighting each other is open PvP, not PvP content; PvP content requires there to be objectives and tasks that can only be completed by doing PvP, and reward you for that PvP, and Imperial City doesn't have any of that.

And we get back into the discussion over what is content and what is not.

It should be very obvious that it's subjective.

And as shown several times, ZOS views content as not just quests and objectives.

To me, IC caters to a couple of different PvP groups. Straight up small group PvPers, and PvP/PvEers. PvPers that want objectives related to PvP and such... there was already Cyrodiil. I think it should have remained gated, to keep them relevant. But I do understand the release pressure and the fact that no one was testing the access rules on PTS (and when people did, they were called griefers), so that's why it's not going live like that. I hope it does change, but I'm not sanguine on that possibility.

Elsonso

Darlgon wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

There is no requirement for any PVP player to kill a single PVE mob. The PVE mobs exist to supply Tel Var stones and to make the PVP (player-player battles) more tactically interesting. All the purists have to do is avoid the PVE mobs and wait for some PVE sheep players to come by and take their sweet rolls.

Kinda surprised to hear that thought from you Richter. With the concentration of mobs in the districts, AvA players will HAVE to kills PVE mobs, if nothing else, to get out of combat. (except for the nightblade gods, of course.)

There is no *requirement* that any PVP player needs to kill a PVE mob. PVP players can do as they please, but they do not *have* to kill PVE mobs. There will be plenty of Tel Var stones that can be obtained from other players that do.

Stikato wrote: »

I don't agree with the second quote very much. TV stones and the pve mobs are going to be resources for BOTH pve and pvp players. They are the only ways to make V16 gear.

The last paragraph though, you are right. It would be far safer for a pve player to be in an instance of IC that they have gated access to. Its kind of ironic--no one wants to take keeps for IC, because they don't want to pvp for their pve access. So instead we are going to get a pvp free for all killing zone 24/7 in IC.

It is true that Tel Var stones are a resource for all players, but the PVE players will only get that resource if they can manage to make it back to the base before 80% (or whatever) of their TV stones are "donated" to someone else. The PVP player has a much better chance, whether we are talking solo or groups, to get back to the bank.

I get why some PVP players will value having IC gated by Cyrodiil accomplishments, but as a PVE player, that works in my benefit to keep the other alliances off my back while I loot the City. Unrestricted IC access benefits those who cannot find themselves a campaign with access, want nothing to do with Cyrodiil, or arePVP players that want to make sure there are plenty of PVE players in the City so that TV stones are easier to get. I just want to get in, grab TVs, and get back to the bank... repeat as needed.

Casdha

Stikato wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Well the simple fact of the matter is ZOS is in business to make money. If you want open access gone or only available at launch for a trial period then the folks advocating this need to come up with better arguments than name calling. Legitimate concerns and the fact that they have the numbers of who plays, and pays, what is the very thing that got ZOS to make the decision to have open access at launch in the first place.

I can take the argument that this is only a bait and switch to get up front sales then gates will be closed, It is logical according to past actions by ZOS and I almost expect this as long as sales and purchaser play style allows for it, but if PvE is where the majority of money comes from on sales then you might as well give it up.

As far as the PvE vs PvP argument goes, I wouldn't put it past ZOS, at some point, to be using IC to test out their PvP and PvE flag rules before finalizing their justice system and adding the Dark Brotherhood content. PTS couldn't really test the way these work as well as IC could before applying it Tamriel wide.

The argument is simple:

1. Open access IC = Everyone will be in IC. Zergs, gankers, griefers. Everyone will be there. Cyrodiil will die.
2. Restriced IC = Some people will be in IC. It will be more of Pve zone with some random PvP. Until someone else takes control, and that's where the fun starts. Cyrodiil has meaning.

Just about every single person playing this game still is going to buy the DLC. 80%+ I would wager. I don't think access rules are going to make a difference. What will make a difference, in the future, is if the game is fun. I don't think Imperial Zerg City is going to be that much fun if everyone is there 24/7.

This is a legitimate argument

but I'd also point to this one:

lordrichter wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I see TV stones as an incentive to do PvP, but since they don't exist without PvE (all TV stones are sourced from PvE), I don't see that as PvP content. Imperial City to me is PvE content with open PvP thrown over the top; I would have much preferred it to also include structured PvP content, such as District Control, and then it would be a proper PvP/PvE DLC.

Yeah, as a PVE person who dabbles in PVP, I do not see Tel Var Stones as PVE. They might be sourced by killing PVE mobs, but they are definitely there for the PVP players, not the PVE players. It may not have property to win, like Cyrodiil, but Imperial City is definitely a PVP zone, and PVE players forget that at their own peril.

I do not plan to purchase the Imperial City DLC (outside of ESO Plus) and will probably spend very little time even thinking about Imperial City as I play. I see the Imperial City as a honey pot for PVE players so that PVP players have something to do. There is no requirement for any PVP player to kill a single PVE mob. The PVE mobs exist to supply Tel Var stones and to make the PVP (player-player battles) more tactically interesting. All the purists have to do is avoid the PVE mobs and wait for some PVE sheep players to come by and take their sweet rolls.

The odds are significantly improved for the PVE player if they latch onto a gated Campaign where they have access to the Imperial City. That will not be the case and the PVP player will have plenty to do. For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

It is funny how the last paragraph matches the above quote but both seem to be vying for a different outcome.

Edit: I shouldn't have said vying for a different outcome but rather that they show both sides of the same coin.

I don't agree with the second quote very much. TV stones and the pve mobs are going to be resources for BOTH pve and pvp players. They are the only ways to make V16 gear.

The last paragraph though, you are right. It would be far safer for a pve player to be in an instance of IC that they have gated access to. Its kind of ironic--no one wants to take keeps for IC, because they don't want to pvp for their pve access. So instead we are going to get a pvp free for all killing zone 24/7 in IC.

Yes, but don't forget all of the argument isn't coming from the PvE folks, it is also coming from PvP folks that are afraid of never being able to have access to IC because of their faction choice and asking someone to change factions if they want access defeats the purpose of AvA to begin with.

I personally think ZOS messed up a great opportunity here for a PvP DLC by tying it up with PvE elements. I would have much rather seen each district have different aspects of PvP. Examples only

Arena - 1vs1 to 4vs4 (friendly fire enabled)
Temple - AvA
Garden - AvA
Nobles - last man/woman standing (friendly fire enabled, think old games UT or Quake arena)
Arboretum - AvA
Market - free for all (zerg zone)

Not great examples but you get the idea, different objectives in each district.

kaorunandrak

This is flat out stupid, the original design was that some campaigns would have ALWAYS ON access to IC while others would have the gated access. How exactly do you guys think PVE players are going to be able to do any of the content in IC? Most of the PVP guilds have been studying where the quests take place where the sweepers are where is the best place to gank, and every single PvE player is gonna get bent over and shown exactly why there was going to be servers with gated access to begin with. Congratulations an ruining any chance you had with getting any of the PvE content done, great job on destroying any reason to to take keeps and do cyrodill. And if you think ANY of the large PvP guilds are going to waste their time to safe guard you while you try to get content done you need to wake up, your not wanted in PVP your a waste of space(outside of being a yummy telvar stone muffin for other factions), they have better things to do then run body guard on PvE players who have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they go out there.

So good job whiners enjoy not playing the DLC you payed for cause all your going to do is get ganked non stop. And in advance thank you for all your telvar stones you didn't need them right?

Casdha

kaorunandrak wrote: »

This is flat out stupid, the original design was that some campaigns would have ALWAYS ON access to IC while others would have the gated access. How exactly do you guys think PVE players are going to be able to do any of the content in IC? Most of the PVP guilds have been studying where the quests take place where the sweepers are where is the best place to gank, and every single PvE player is gonna get bent over and shown exactly why there was going to be servers with gated access to begin with. Congratulations an ruining any chance you had with getting any of the PvE content done, great job on destroying any reason to to take keeps and do cyrodill. And if you think ANY of the large PvP guilds are going to waste their time to safe guard you while you try to get content done you need to wake up, your not wanted in PVP your a waste of space(outside of being a yummy telvar stone muffin for other factions), they have better things to do then run body guard on PvE players who have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they go out there.

So good job whiners enjoy not playing the DLC you payed for cause all your going to do is get ganked non stop. And in advance thank you for all your telvar stones you didn't need them right?

What do you think a zerg is, PvE players following PvP groups and rolling over folks with sheer numbers. You don't have to be able to fight good when its 20 to 1. When someone's only argument is to complain about others folk's play style and call them names, you know what that makes them? I'll give you a hint,,, you said it yourself.

Stikato

Casdha wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Well the simple fact of the matter is ZOS is in business to make money. If you want open access gone or only available at launch for a trial period then the folks advocating this need to come up with better arguments than name calling. Legitimate concerns and the fact that they have the numbers of who plays, and pays, what is the very thing that got ZOS to make the decision to have open access at launch in the first place.

I can take the argument that this is only a bait and switch to get up front sales then gates will be closed, It is logical according to past actions by ZOS and I almost expect this as long as sales and purchaser play style allows for it, but if PvE is where the majority of money comes from on sales then you might as well give it up.

As far as the PvE vs PvP argument goes, I wouldn't put it past ZOS, at some point, to be using IC to test out their PvP and PvE flag rules before finalizing their justice system and adding the Dark Brotherhood content. PTS couldn't really test the way these work as well as IC could before applying it Tamriel wide.

The argument is simple:

1. Open access IC = Everyone will be in IC. Zergs, gankers, griefers. Everyone will be there. Cyrodiil will die.
2. Restriced IC = Some people will be in IC. It will be more of Pve zone with some random PvP. Until someone else takes control, and that's where the fun starts. Cyrodiil has meaning.

Just about every single person playing this game still is going to buy the DLC. 80%+ I would wager. I don't think access rules are going to make a difference. What will make a difference, in the future, is if the game is fun. I don't think Imperial Zerg City is going to be that much fun if everyone is there 24/7.

This is a legitimate argument

but I'd also point to this one:

lordrichter wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I see TV stones as an incentive to do PvP, but since they don't exist without PvE (all TV stones are sourced from PvE), I don't see that as PvP content. Imperial City to me is PvE content with open PvP thrown over the top; I would have much preferred it to also include structured PvP content, such as District Control, and then it would be a proper PvP/PvE DLC.

Yeah, as a PVE person who dabbles in PVP, I do not see Tel Var Stones as PVE. They might be sourced by killing PVE mobs, but they are definitely there for the PVP players, not the PVE players. It may not have property to win, like Cyrodiil, but Imperial City is definitely a PVP zone, and PVE players forget that at their own peril.

I do not plan to purchase the Imperial City DLC (outside of ESO Plus) and will probably spend very little time even thinking about Imperial City as I play. I see the Imperial City as a honey pot for PVE players so that PVP players have something to do. There is no requirement for any PVP player to kill a single PVE mob. The PVE mobs exist to supply Tel Var stones and to make the PVP (player-player battles) more tactically interesting. All the purists have to do is avoid the PVE mobs and wait for some PVE sheep players to come by and take their sweet rolls.

The odds are significantly improved for the PVE player if they latch onto a gated Campaign where they have access to the Imperial City. That will not be the case and the PVP player will have plenty to do. For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

It is funny how the last paragraph matches the above quote but both seem to be vying for a different outcome.

Edit: I shouldn't have said vying for a different outcome but rather that they show both sides of the same coin.

I don't agree with the second quote very much. TV stones and the pve mobs are going to be resources for BOTH pve and pvp players. They are the only ways to make V16 gear.

The last paragraph though, you are right. It would be far safer for a pve player to be in an instance of IC that they have gated access to. Its kind of ironic--no one wants to take keeps for IC, because they don't want to pvp for their pve access. So instead we are going to get a pvp free for all killing zone 24/7 in IC.

Yes, but don't forget all of the argument isn't coming from the PvE folks, it is also coming from PvP folks that are afraid of never being able to have access to IC because of their faction choice and asking someone to change factions if they want access defeats the purpose of AvA to begin with.

I personally think ZOS messed up a great opportunity here for a PvP DLC by tying it up with PvE elements. I would have much rather seen each district have different aspects of PvP. Examples only

Arena - 1vs1 to 4vs4 (friendly fire enabled)
Temple - AvA
Garden - AvA
Nobles - last man/woman standing (friendly fire enabled, think old games UT or Quake arena)
Arboretum - AvA
Market - free for all (zerg zone)

Not great examples but you get the idea, different objectives in each district.

Dude, I don't care who is making the argument. You have really good ideas there. But IC is going to have the content that it has now. That's not going to change. I don't understand the point of these tangential arguments: i.e, who is saying what, ZOS should have done this. Who PvDoors, and who doesn't. Etc etc. I don't get it.

There is one thing that is important in this thread. Open IC vs Restricted IC.

I've said my piece. No one has come up with a single argument that has swayed my view of the only question that matters:

Will the game be more fun with open IC, or with restricted access IC.

Will the game be more fun with super crowded IC, or less crowded IC (especially for pve'rs)
Will the game be more fun with meaningless, empty Cyrodiil, or more meaningful, populated Cyrodiil

I don't give a sh*t about who said what, how much the DLC costs, if you wear boxers or briefs, or anything else. Sorry to be blunt, but this thread is 21 pages of mostly stupid arguments, and hurt feeling, and what's fair, and wants and needs, and entitlement, and other bullsh*t. All that matters is what's in bold above.

kaorunandrak

Casdha wrote: »

What do you think a zerg is, PvE players following PvP groups and rolling over folks with sheer numbers. You don't have to be able to fight good when its 20 to 1. When someone's only argument is to complain about others folk's play style and call them names, you know what that makes them? I'll give you a hint,,, you said it yourself.

Whiners..... That really bugged you didn't it, that one line in my whole post just got to you huh even though it has been said by countless others?

Look man enjoy your non gated access, I'll keep an eye out for you with the rest of my guild's pvpers so we can take your TV stones and keep you locked on your respawn. Seriously you guys don't get it. You had a chance before to take part in the content, you had chance to actually get some use out of this patch. Now though? Your only use is a tel var deposit for me and any other PVPer out there, we will watch you guys clear some mobs and then as soon as your done BAM, or better yet while your in the middle of a fight with mobs BAM. All your TV stones belong to us, so good luck enjoy the hell you guys asked and begged for cause it coming.

Casdha

Stikato wrote: »

Dude, I don't care who is making the argument. You have really good ideas there. But IC is going to have the content that it has now. That's not going to change. I don't understand the point of these tangential arguments: i.e, who is saying what, ZOS should have done this. Who PvDoors, and who doesn't. Etc etc. I don't get it.

There is one thing that is important in this thread. Open IC vs Restricted IC.

I've said my piece. No one has come up with a single argument that has swayed my view of the only question that matters:

Will the game be more fun with open IC, or with restricted access IC.

Will the game be more fun with super crowded IC, or less crowded IC (especially for pve'rs)
Will the game be more fun with meaningless, empty Cyrodiil, or more meaningful, populated Cyrodiil

I don't give a sh*t about who said what, how much the DLC costs, if you wear boxers or briefs, or anything else. Sorry to be blunt, but this thread is 21 pages of mostly stupid arguments, and hurt feeling, and what's fair, and wants and needs, and entitlement, and other bullsh*t. All that matters is what's in bold above.

I agree, nothing has swayed my opinion either. As I've said a few times over the 21 pages, I have no desire to play this DLC. Free access or earned, it has missed the mark for what I would have like to have seen and will probably rarely play it, if at all. The only reason the option is open is I am an ESO+ member. I would just like to see legitimate arguments from both sides rather than name calling and was pointing out examples of each. Nothing against your or anyone else with legit sides to the argument.

For the folks that can only throw tantrums and resort to name calling, a legitimate argument is the only thing that will sway ZOS one way or the other, that and the all mighty dollar (or what ever your currency is). I've just been trying to point that out where I can.

Casdha

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

What do you think a zerg is, PvE players following PvP groups and rolling over folks with sheer numbers. You don't have to be able to fight good when its 20 to 1. When someone's only argument is to complain about others folk's play style and call them names, you know what that makes them? I'll give you a hint,,, you said it yourself.

Whiners..... That really bugged you didn't it, that one line in my whole post just got to you huh even though it has been said by countless others?

Look man enjoy your non gated access, I'll keep an eye out for you with the rest of my guild's pvpers so we can take your TV stones and keep you locked on your respawn. Seriously you guys don't get it. You had a chance before to take part in the content, you had chance to actually get some use out of this patch. Now though? Your only use is a tel var deposit for me and any other PVPer out there, we will watch you guys clear some mobs and then as soon as your done BAM, or better yet while your in the middle of a fight with mobs BAM. All your TV stones belong to us, so good luck enjoy the hell you guys asked and begged for cause it coming.

Nice looking guild home page, If you would have spoken like that here, I would have been glad to listen to you.