The Day ESO Dies

aast.tesob16_ESO

May have been posted elsewhere in this thread however, http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/post/quote/190473/comment_1975144 seems a much better implementation of the CP system.

Ffastyl

I have been slowly reading the thread, on page 6, and have read the Dev comments too. I think I need to share my thoughts even though I have only read a fraction of yours.

In regards to the Champion System,
a combination of the catchup mechanic mentioned by ZOS (reduced XP for first several hundred CP) and the functional shift suggested by @Rune_Relic (quoted earlier in the thread) would transform the CS into a more horizontal progression system.* Each player would gain the first 300 CP rather easily, enough to equip one passive into each slot. Any CP earned after 300 (assuming the player(s) chose to max out 3 stars to 100) will simply add more options rather than increase the character's power. Some tweaking may be made to allow more customization, such as allowing players to equip multiple passives from the same constellation group or one passive from each constellation, but the reduced XP per CP needs to be enough so that players can fill out all available slots in a reasonably short amount of time.

Implementing seasons/tiers/time gates, as many have suggested, will lock players into their present CP "tiers" relative to the community. The grinders will remain ahead and will always be ahead, as any who attempt to catch up are stopped by the season/tier/time cap.
Making lower rank CP easier to obtain as @Gidorick suggests is a blanket solution that will help players catch up to grinders, but does not stop the power creep.


In regards to Veteran Ranks,
the increase to VR16 is something few of us wanted to hear, but understandable given the addition of the Imperial City, new item sets, and other content. I believe many, if not most, of us would be fine with Veteran Ranks simply being removed and all VR items converted to Level 50 versions. I personally wish for player power levels to be nerfed so the world presents more of a challenge, and the power creep is reduced somewhat.

Breaking from what I have read/heard,
my suggestion for alternative vertical progression to the Veteran Ranks is a tier of gear granted by completing specific content, such as Trials. The Master's weapons serve as an example of what I propose. There will be tiers of gear that are Level 50 but statistically are 51 or 52, granted by completing content deemed tough by the developers. This gear can be awarded through leaderboards, as rare gear already is (it also gives PvPers a way to gain the gear without stopping the PvP), and through the simple completion of certain dungeons, quests, trials, and/or achievements. The gear is marked as Level 50, with a special icon in the tooltip (i.e. a silver/gold medal or 50.1 and 50.2) to signify it has become part of the new tier.**
I draw inspiration from the Etrian Odyssey series of games (for Nintendo DS), which have a level cap of 70. But by defeating incredibly tough bosses, you can raise the level cap up to 99.

A Dragon's Dogma approach could also be applied to this system, where upon completing the marked content a random item you are equipped with will be boosted to the new tier. This is called "Dragon forged" in Dragon's Dogma, and is accomplished by defeating dragons.

These are vertical progression systems, and intentionally so. A portion of the community wants to have a gear chase, and this suggestion aims to provide one without making it feel mandatory as the Veteran Ranks do. It can also be done without increasing the level cap.

From there, new sets need to be periodically added so gear chasers can find a new goal, a new BiS for their nuanced builds. The crafted and dropped sets is a perfect example: one type is not inherently better than the other -- it depends on what you want/need.


Admittedly, changing stats to higher levels is easier than creating new item sets, skills, and systems. Changing a number is easier than writing new code or editing old code. But the latter is what will serve game balance better in the long term.



*This post by @Faugaun attempts to piece together the definition of Horizontal Progression. The best example of it in ESO is the skill system with it's many lines, morphs, and limited slots.

**Improving an item by 1 quality level is the equivalent of increasing it by 1 Veteran Rank or 2 Levels; a blue 50.1 item will be as strong as a purple 50, and a blue 50.2 as strong as a gold 50.

Celas_Dranacea

Ok before I say what I'm going to say, I'll be honest that at this stage I'm not having any problems in Cyrodil. My KDR is plenty good. At 180 cp I destroy many players, and get destroyed by many others. it's great fun. But what We're talking about is the meta here and projecting out to what's inevitably going to happen in 6 months.

Let me put it this way. I'm over 30 years old and have a wife and a baby on the way. I work full time, and have various other projects and commitments going on, yet I love this game so much I still usually manage to play 1-2 hours a day. I consider myself fairly good in pvp, though I will never make any leaderboards as I don't play enough and the first part of every play session now unfortunately needs to be devoted to grinding a cp as I don't know what I'll decide to do with the rest of my time (maybe help a friend with some crafting or a dungeon, maybe just casually pvp). I want to remain competitive without having to ignore my family and other responsibilities for an 8 hour 2nd shift everyday just to sort of not fall to drastically behind other people in Cyrodil long term.

I want to log in, kick ass for an hour or two, then log out. I've been playing for a year and I pay my subscription, and I'm happy to continue investing in the game.

However, I bet you there are plenty of other people like me that are able to pay ZOS, play regularly, and don't want like a 2x power differential between casuals and people who play 5+ hours a day (because that's basically what it is when you add up all the various benefits of say 1500 cp vs 100). It's just stupid. Those people who play more will naturally be way better thanks to more practice, without such an extreme buff.

I don't think it's fair to privilege arch-nerds and super-grinders over people who have a balanced life and plan to play 1-2 hours a day, which for most of the human population on earth is a lot of time to devote to video games already.

Sure super dedicated players should reap some benefits, but not to this extreme we currently have.

So I'm in favor of at least what Eric w said about the first 300 cp possibly being easier to earn, if not up to 500 since by the time they implement this the upper tenth percentile of players will be further down the road. I'm also in favor of a seasonal cp cap. Just something to keep the gap reasonable.

Respectfully

MikeB

Rosveen wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

Talents that effect daedra and undead (undaunted) should not affect player characters. Vampires get shafted in PvP and there is no equal ability/skill versus werewolves.

This part isn't true. There's a passive in the Fighters Guild line (not Undaunted) making all skills affecting daedra and undead affect werewolves too. There's still the issue of werewolves staying in human form to reap stamina regen benefits without any drawbacks, but when they transform, they're vulnerable.

Sorry, as stated I have only played the game for a little over 2 weeks. The skills are in Fighters Guild, but the skill that makes them also apply to werewolves is the 2nd to last passive. I still stand that that the Fighters Guild abilities and passives should not effect player characters.

Sigtric

Thank you @ZOS_JessicaFolsom for this update.


Obviously you folks are in a better position to look at these things, but some changes I see could greatly help:
1. Disabling CP in non-vet OR creating non-cp enabled campaigns.
2. If I can't earn CP pre-veteran rank, why can I use them pre-vet? Allow us to earn them from lvl 1 (catch up mechanism?) or disable them pre-VR

I'm not sure how to handle the problem "grinding zombies= champion points" but something needs to be changed there. It seems silly I can make my pvp nightblade stronger by grinding zombies on a higher level AOE/PVE toon...

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey everyone, just a heads up that we are internally discussing your concerns (we've been reading them) -- we posted this in another thread, but it's worth repeating.

We're currently looking into ways we can help those new to the Champion System catch up a bit, and also decrease the gap between those who are just starting out and those who have accumulated a ton of points. Once we have a plan scoped out a bit more, we will be sharing it and looking to get everyone's thoughts.

e1team

All those people whining about CP, crying "nerf that!", "crank up this!", you guys miss the concept of a "Game". Each game comes with it's own rules. You either accept them, adapt or GTFO!
In my time we didn't even think about complaining, demanding or whining to the devs. We got a game and we played it.
I can't even begin to count how many times I died in Baldur's Gate or Fallout or Morrowind or Gothic (not counting the old school games like Mario and stuff). Yes it was frustrating at times and infuriating. Did we complain? No! We figured out the system, we honed our skills, we invested time and by trial and error we mastered those games!
Today's gamers are all brain jellied. They need everything handed to them.
And you know what? Majority of the whiners and complainers can be categorized by a specific psychic profile, according to their posts, words they use and phrases they repeat time after time. 16 years old teenagers, full of hormones. Yes, people. Exactly the limit PEGI sets for this game.
Sorry folks if you don't have a girlfriend or you have to go to school every day. This is life!
This game is amazing and UNIQUE! Don't ruin it for us. Go make love to yourselves or find a mate and let us the grownups enjoy our intellectual conversations.

Thank you!

Faulgor

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

All i know is, levelling VR's takes too long.

Personally i want to see VR xp increased substantially, im only VR3 after a week, and im spending 5-6 hrs sometimes in a session... it shouldnt take that long.

And no, im not buying XP potions for money...

i dont know what the answer is, but i dont enjoy Veteran Levels at all as it stands, i feel like its another barrier between me and PvP if i dont level now, and get CP and VR levels ill be blown apart by higher rank players.

i just want to enjoy all facets of the game.

@Visemere just to let you know, they ARE increasing XP for the veteran areas with the next major update. You can see the percentages here
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190398/full-21th-eso-live-highlights/p1

for cadwells quests yes, but that increase doesnt ive heard apply to all quests in the zone?

The 20% increase in Craglorn really is worthless as well given that Craglorn suffered a 50% cut, and there's an XP reduction for being in a group.

All The Best

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

Even double exp in Public Dungeons will not make them viable. Currently, I get about as much from one VR4 overworld zombie as from two whole public dungeon mobs of the same level.
And delves are by definition are not Public Dungeons, I'm afraid. Although I'd like them very much to get an increase as well. Craglorn delves are nice.

Sigtric

e1team wrote: »

All those people whining about CP, crying "nerf that!", "crank up this!", you guys miss the concept of a "Game". Each game comes with it's own rules. You either accept them, adapt or GTFO!
In my time we didn't even think about complaining, demanding or whining to the devs. We got a game and we played it.
I can't even begin to count how many times I died in Baldur's Gate or Fallout or Morrowind or Gothic (not counting the old school games like Mario and stuff). Yes it was frustrating at times and infuriating. Did we complain? No! We figured out the system, we honed our skills, we invested time and by trial and error we mastered those games!
Today's gamers are all brain jellied. They need everything handed to them.
And you know what? Majority of the whiners and complainers can be categorized by a specific psychic profile, according to their posts, words they use and phrases they repeat time after time. 16 years old teenagers, full of hormones. Yes, people. Exactly the limit PEGI sets for this game.
Sorry folks if you don't have a girlfriend or you have to go to school every day. This is life!
This game is amazing and UNIQUE! Don't ruin it for us. Go make love to yourselves or find a mate and let us the grownups enjoy our intellectual conversations.

Thank you!

You have some valid points but the veiled insults pretty much nullify it all.

Zhoyzu

Rhakon wrote: »

no not in a linear 24/7 farmingsimulator-system.

content and challenges should keep us busy and playing.

I think most people dont consider grinding playing. In fact, Grinding prevents you from playing the game because in order to play the game you need to grind and until you grind you cant play. See the pattern here?

People dont want to mindlessly grind all day and night just to do the activities they enjoy. Most of us want some progression whether intriniscally (such as skill improvements or gear mastery), or experience points ( the champion system solved this).

When the game becomes a chore or job just to keep up, the game isnt worth playing. Unless ZoS starts mailing me checks in the mail every week, its looking like i wont be coming back as much as i enjoy the game.

Attorneyatlawl

Faulgor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

All i know is, levelling VR's takes too long.

Personally i want to see VR xp increased substantially, im only VR3 after a week, and im spending 5-6 hrs sometimes in a session... it shouldnt take that long.

And no, im not buying XP potions for money...

i dont know what the answer is, but i dont enjoy Veteran Levels at all as it stands, i feel like its another barrier between me and PvP if i dont level now, and get CP and VR levels ill be blown apart by higher rank players.

i just want to enjoy all facets of the game.

@Visemere just to let you know, they ARE increasing XP for the veteran areas with the next major update. You can see the percentages here
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190398/full-21th-eso-live-highlights/p1

for cadwells quests yes, but that increase doesnt ive heard apply to all quests in the zone?

The 20% increase in Craglorn really is worthless as well given that Craglorn suffered a 50% cut, and there's an XP reduction for being in a group.

All The Best

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

Even double exp in Public Dungeons will not make them viable. Currently, I get about as much from one VR4 overworld zombie as from two whole public dungeon mobs of the same level.
And delves are by definition are not Public Dungeons, I'm afraid. Although I'd like them very much to get an increase as well. Craglorn delves are nice.

Delves are used interchangeably with the term public dungeon in the game. And, this is a one hundred percent serious question, did you read what you just wrote?

It's honestly impossible to have a real discussion when inside of the same post, many contradict their own math.

Bromburak

e1team wrote: »

All those people whining about CP, crying "nerf that!", "crank up this!", you guys miss the concept of a "Game". Each game comes with it's own rules. You either accept them, adapt or GTFO!

You clearly don't know how MMOs work.
Games like ESO are always growing and improve with help of user experience ...

Designers make suggestions and decisions but implementations needs testing to see if it really works out. A naturally process in online gaming.

Rosveen

.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

All i know is, levelling VR's takes too long.

Personally i want to see VR xp increased substantially, im only VR3 after a week, and im spending 5-6 hrs sometimes in a session... it shouldnt take that long.

And no, im not buying XP potions for money...

i dont know what the answer is, but i dont enjoy Veteran Levels at all as it stands, i feel like its another barrier between me and PvP if i dont level now, and get CP and VR levels ill be blown apart by higher rank players.

i just want to enjoy all facets of the game.

@Visemere just to let you know, they ARE increasing XP for the veteran areas with the next major update. You can see the percentages here
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190398/full-21th-eso-live-highlights/p1

for cadwells quests yes, but that increase doesnt ive heard apply to all quests in the zone?

The 20% increase in Craglorn really is worthless as well given that Craglorn suffered a 50% cut, and there's an XP reduction for being in a group.

All The Best

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

Even double exp in Public Dungeons will not make them viable. Currently, I get about as much from one VR4 overworld zombie as from two whole public dungeon mobs of the same level.
And delves are by definition are not Public Dungeons, I'm afraid. Although I'd like them very much to get an increase as well. Craglorn delves are nice.

Delves are used interchangeably with the term public dungeon in the game. And, this is a one hundred percent serious question, did you read what you just wrote?

It's honestly impossible to have a real discussion when inside of the same post, many contradict their own math.

Delves and public dungeons aren't the same thing at all.
Delves are small dungeons with skyshards represented by a torch icon.
Just like delves, public dungeons aren't instanced, but they're designed for a group and contain several bosses inside, including a group challenge rewarding skill points. They are represented by a cave icon.

sadownik

e1team wrote: »

All those people whining about CP, crying "nerf that!", "crank up this!", you guys miss the concept of a "Game". Each game comes with it's own rules. You either accept them, adapt or GTFO!
In my time we didn't even think about complaining, demanding or whining to the devs. We got a game and we played it.
I can't even begin to count how many times I died in Baldur's Gate or Fallout or Morrowind or Gothic (not counting the old school games like Mario and stuff). Yes it was frustrating at times and infuriating. Did we complain? No! We figured out the system, we honed our skills, we invested time and by trial and error we mastered those games!
Today's gamers are all brain jellied. They need everything handed to them.
And you know what? Majority of the whiners and complainers can be categorized by a specific psychic profile, according to their posts, words they use and phrases they repeat time after time. 16 years old teenagers, full of hormones. Yes, people. Exactly the limit PEGI sets for this game.
Sorry folks if you don't have a girlfriend or you have to go to school every day. This is life!
This game is amazing and UNIQUE! Don't ruin it for us. Go make love to yourselves or find a mate and let us the grownups enjoy our intellectual conversations.

Thank you!

Please do tell... describing as amazing is purly subjective, but where is uniqeness?

ChuckyPayne

Sry for my English.

Since the Champion System (CS) is released I play a lot less. I am not a grinder, I play in group a few but the LFG system not work and it bothers me, and hold backa bit. To my game style the most exp is the character leveling, but since the CS released I feel I shoud only play while enlightened, if not then I feel all exp is wasted. But of couse since 1.6 no new content CS is only a sub-system not a content, and we need new content of course to not feel everthing all about CS.

My wife is in worse position. She like questing, leveling, play since Day 1, but she hasn't got a VR14 character yet. She a solo player, she doesn't do dungeons, pvp or craglorn. She say "I am not a skilled player, first I create a max lvl character and craft a good armor, and play together with a better chance in the harder group contents".
She finished the zone Rift after lower craglorn is released. She reached the VR11 + 3/4 after finished last zone Rift, the +1/4 she collected with solo dwemer dungeons (after dwemer motif release),+2VR lvl, she can't reach vr14. She created new character after reduced VR exp (1M) but she cant reach VR14, and now here is the VR16. She a pve player the new content wont help her. Her dream is to become ever level up will not come true until erased VR ranks. She play with alts, but 0 VR14
She love the game, she play lot but she have an unusual game style, she can wait and wait and while waiting play with alts.

This mmo game has the best "Immersion" but the leveling is not the best.

I don't know what would be a good solution, just I feel that is not good. I play with this mmo game, because this more better then others (the wold, the enviroment, etc.). A big problems I think every developer would like create a unique thing. There is tons of mmo-s on the market with very good sub-systems. Just use the good ones (for example side-kick systems, everyone equal in pvp, the gear just a skin, the gear level up with u, etc. etc.)

Sallington

e1team wrote: »

All those people whining about CP, crying "nerf that!", "crank up this!", you guys miss the concept of a "Game". Each game comes with it's own rules. You either accept them, adapt or GTFO!
In my time we didn't even think about complaining, demanding or whining to the devs. We got a game and we played it.
I can't even begin to count how many times I died in Baldur's Gate or Fallout or Morrowind or Gothic (not counting the old school games like Mario and stuff). Yes it was frustrating at times and infuriating. Did we complain? No! We figured out the system, we honed our skills, we invested time and by trial and error we mastered those games!
Today's gamers are all brain jellied. They need everything handed to them.
And you know what? Majority of the whiners and complainers can be categorized by a specific psychic profile, according to their posts, words they use and phrases they repeat time after time. 16 years old teenagers, full of hormones. Yes, people. Exactly the limit PEGI sets for this game.
Sorry folks if you don't have a girlfriend or you have to go to school every day. This is life!
This game is amazing and UNIQUE! Don't ruin it for us. Go make love to yourselves or find a mate and let us the grownups enjoy our intellectual conversations.

Thank you!

Well if this isn't the most ironic post I've read in a while, I don't know what is.

OrphanHelgen

Was wondering why this thread always stays on top. I see your friends are bumping it every day, so basicly its 3-4 people discussing here. Meanwhile, im looking forward to vet16 and some chances, maybe some new gear would be fun, Im bored already.

DenMoria

nimander99 wrote: »

The fact is not a single person can point to a single fight they have had in cyrodiil and say "that person for sure killed me because he had more than 300 cp's"

Everyone's hoping on the issue of the moment, ZoS is paying attention, they are gonna knee jerk gut this great system, and we are all gonna be left with a flat game.

This is a non-issue people.

True, but I CAN point out a dozen people that killed me. Of course that's because I was level 11 and didn't know what I was doing, but still...

Sposati

This one made me laugh so much:

elias.stormneb18_ESO wrote: »

To battle proletariat, together we shall make revolution against the Grinders and create a free and democratic ESO republic!

And, importantly, this from ZOS

Leadership Authority officially acknowledges champion system pitfalls and promises solutions...

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey everyone, just a heads up that we are internally discussing your concerns (we've been reading them) -- we posted this in another thread, but it's worth repeating.

We're currently looking into ways we can help those new to the Champion System catch up a bit, and also decrease the gap between those who are just starting out and those who have accumulated a ton of points. Once we have a plan scoped out a bit more, we will be sharing it and looking to get everyone's thoughts.

Yay! + Thank You ZOS

Looking forward to the fixes

Armitas

e1team wrote: »

All those people whining about CP, crying "nerf that!", "crank up this!", you guys miss the concept of a "Game". Each game comes with it's own rules. You either accept them, adapt or GTFO!

Or leave feedback. Which is what we are doing. Limiting yourself to those 3 options in life is simply untenable.

Faulgor

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

All i know is, levelling VR's takes too long.

Personally i want to see VR xp increased substantially, im only VR3 after a week, and im spending 5-6 hrs sometimes in a session... it shouldnt take that long.

And no, im not buying XP potions for money...

i dont know what the answer is, but i dont enjoy Veteran Levels at all as it stands, i feel like its another barrier between me and PvP if i dont level now, and get CP and VR levels ill be blown apart by higher rank players.

i just want to enjoy all facets of the game.

@Visemere just to let you know, they ARE increasing XP for the veteran areas with the next major update. You can see the percentages here
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190398/full-21th-eso-live-highlights/p1

for cadwells quests yes, but that increase doesnt ive heard apply to all quests in the zone?

The 20% increase in Craglorn really is worthless as well given that Craglorn suffered a 50% cut, and there's an XP reduction for being in a group.

All The Best

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

Even double exp in Public Dungeons will not make them viable. Currently, I get about as much from one VR4 overworld zombie as from two whole public dungeon mobs of the same level.
And delves are by definition are not Public Dungeons, I'm afraid. Although I'd like them very much to get an increase as well. Craglorn delves are nice.

Delves are used interchangeably with the term public dungeon in the game. And, this is a one hundred percent serious question, did you read what you just wrote?

It's honestly impossible to have a real discussion when inside of the same post, many contradict their own math.

The game is very specific with the term public dungeon. Public dungeons have their own icon on the map (there's 1 per zone, or 16 in total), and their own section in the achievement list. They are much larger than delves and are thus geared for larger groups of players. Each one has a specific group challenge that rewards a skillpoint, as well as several bosses that can be killed for the specific achievement and a skyshard. Usually, there are also 2 quests to complete inside.
Delves are much shorter, have only 1 boss and 1 skyshard and are geared for 1-2 players.

Yes, I read what I wrote, and I can't find inconsistency with it. I can try to elaborate, though.
A single enemy in the overworld, that means, outside of dungeons/delves/whathaveyou, grants about as much experience as 2 whole groups of enemies in a public dungeon of similar level. However, before writing this post, I had another look (specifically this time in the Vile Manse in Reaper's March, Cadwell's Silver area), and it might be close to 1 whole mob, depending on the size - which varies quite a bit. Overall, 1 overworld enemy, for example a V5 wasp, yields as much exp as ~6 public dungeon enemies. Even increasing public dungeon exp by 100% leaves a huge difference between overworld and public dungeon exp, which I do not believe is made up by mob density inside dungeons.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Grinding does not equal content

Theycould implement new skills and quest lines and keep people playing just as long as 2 vr levels

MissBizz

Rosveen wrote: »

.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

All i know is, levelling VR's takes too long.

Personally i want to see VR xp increased substantially, im only VR3 after a week, and im spending 5-6 hrs sometimes in a session... it shouldnt take that long.

And no, im not buying XP potions for money...

i dont know what the answer is, but i dont enjoy Veteran Levels at all as it stands, i feel like its another barrier between me and PvP if i dont level now, and get CP and VR levels ill be blown apart by higher rank players.

i just want to enjoy all facets of the game.

@Visemere just to let you know, they ARE increasing XP for the veteran areas with the next major update. You can see the percentages here
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190398/full-21th-eso-live-highlights/p1

for cadwells quests yes, but that increase doesnt ive heard apply to all quests in the zone?

The 20% increase in Craglorn really is worthless as well given that Craglorn suffered a 50% cut, and there's an XP reduction for being in a group.

All The Best

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

Even double exp in Public Dungeons will not make them viable. Currently, I get about as much from one VR4 overworld zombie as from two whole public dungeon mobs of the same level.
And delves are by definition are not Public Dungeons, I'm afraid. Although I'd like them very much to get an increase as well. Craglorn delves are nice.

Delves are used interchangeably with the term public dungeon in the game. And, this is a one hundred percent serious question, did you read what you just wrote?

It's honestly impossible to have a real discussion when inside of the same post, many contradict their own math.

Delves and public dungeons aren't the same thing at all.
Delves are small dungeons with skyshards represented by a torch icon.
Just like delves, public dungeons aren't instanced, but they're designed for a group and contain several bosses inside, including a group challenge rewarding skill points. They are represented by a cave icon.

Agreed. I even made a video on this for new players. Delves are what are often also called "Solo Dungeons".

nimander99

I for one can't wait for more Vet levels and I love the Champ system as is even though I have 140 CP's I still actively faceroll suckers in Cyrodiil NO PROBLEM.

This is the last time I bump this post, we need to let this thread die.

SanderBuraas

Visemere wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

All i know is, levelling VR's takes too long.

Personally i want to see VR xp increased substantially, im only VR3 after a week, and im spending 5-6 hrs sometimes in a session... it shouldnt take that long.

And no, im not buying XP potions for money...

i dont know what the answer is, but i dont enjoy Veteran Levels at all as it stands, i feel like its another barrier between me and PvP if i dont level now, and get CP and VR levels ill be blown apart by higher rank players.

i just want to enjoy all facets of the game.

@Visemere just to let you know, they ARE increasing XP for the veteran areas with the next major update. You can see the percentages here
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190398/full-21th-eso-live-highlights/p1

for cadwells quests yes, but that increase doesnt ive heard apply to all quests in the zone?

Did you even read the post? All veteran quests. You need fifteen percent less experience for a veteran rank. Experience doubled in public dungeons. Craglorn experience boosted by twenty percent.

DenMoria

nimander99 wrote: »

I for one can't wait for more Vet levels and I love the Champ system as is even though I have 140 CP's I still actively faceroll suckers in Cyrodiil NO PROBLEM.

This is the last time I bump this post, we need to let this thread die.

And this is why I'll never go back to Cyrodil and never get V or CP levels. There are too many folks like you there that just want to body slam other folks and not even give them a chance.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, but most of you actively seek us out just to humiliate us.

You're mean.

SanderBuraas

DenMoria wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I for one can't wait for more Vet levels and I love the Champ system as is even though I have 140 CP's I still actively faceroll suckers in Cyrodiil NO PROBLEM.

This is the last time I bump this post, we need to let this thread die.

And this is why I'll never go back to Cyrodil and never get V or CP levels. There are too many folks like you there that just want to body slam other folks and not even give them a chance.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, but most of you actively seek us out just to humiliate us.

You're mean.

It's called competitiveness, you find it everywhere.

Forztr

Views on the VR and CP system from a casual player

Since this is a very important thread I wanted to add the views of casual player to the many already expressed in this debate.

Background
I played the game from launch on EU and quit on hitting VR5. The grind through VR levels and Cadwells quest-line sucked the enjoyment out of the game for me. At this point the game had increased max level twice and I just couldn't see any hope of getting there. If every big content update included an increase in max VR I was destined to be permanently leveling, so I quit.

When buy to play launched I returned and rerolled on NA. One of the reasons I came back was I was under the impression that the CP system was the last step before they removed my main reason for leaving, namely the veteran ranks. I re-rolled to relearn the game and fell in love with my character and the game again. The stories and the non Vet PVP are really fun.

Playstyle
I like to think I play the game as it was intended I don't try to sprint to endgame but prefer to leisurely stroll there.This makes me a slow leveler I tend to get sucked into the story in MMOs so when I level I listen to the quest dialog. I like to explore the map especially in this game where the design of environments is truly amazing. I'll sometimes chill and gather mats whilst watching streams. I'm a bit of a hoarder so spend time managing bag space. To take a break from questing I'll dip into the non Vet PVP for a few play sessions. Occasionally I'll even stop to read one of the books if it piques my interest.

The net result of this I'm currently sitting on VR7 with a /played of 450hrs after 14 weeks. So maybe not so casual after all.

Veteran ranks
My two issues with VR as it currently stands are:-

a) It's a massive time sink between finishing the main story and being able to do end game content with my guild. At my current pace it's going to have taken me 5-6 months of regular play before I even get to step foot inside a Trial or DSA.

b) Cadwells Silver and Gold. If I wanted to do the other factions stories I would have liked to have done them on fresh alts. I could have created toons specific for those factions and played on classes different to my main. This would have made for a more interesting experience than currently plowing through the zones on my main using mostly the same skills and a play style I had at VR1.

I considered stopping my main at VR1 and rolling alts to do the other two factions but that would have added another two months to getting to max level and made the slog through Cadwells even more tedious as I'd have already done the quests.

People often refer to content being gated. In ESO VR aren't a gate they're a tunnel, a very long tunnel.

Champion Points
I have very little experience of CP only having around 60 so can only comment based on what I've read. While the system sounds interesting and deciding where to put that next point adds to the development of your character I have three concerns about the system.

1) The power available to players who have a lot of CPs seems very high. To me 25% is a big number. How much of characters power comes from the CPs compared with level and gear?

2) How can you balance content with CPs in play? Content is currently gated by level, two players of the same level could have vastly different CPs. Do you balance it for the low CP player making it too easy for the one with high CP or balance for the high CP making it impossible for the low?

3) My biggest concern though is for non Vet PVP. Before hitting VR1 I played quite a lot in BWB and it was immense fun. The almost level playing field made for good fights and the lack of high end abilities makes for very little lag. On a forum full of complaints and negativity most posts about BWB are positive. Also judging by the number of extra non Vet campaigns added to consoles it's very popular with the couch brigade. CP have the potential to break what makes BWB so much fun and that is the balance. I've not played in it for a few weeks so can't comment on the current state of the campaign but BWB is a success story that needs to be protected.

Conclusion and closing thoughts
Veteran ranks should have gone before console release. I predict they'll turn off a lot of console players in the same way they did with PC players. You can't make money if you don't have players so something that drives players away should be a priority not a "long term goal".

Champion points shouldn't have been added unless you were close to removing VR. They were initially sold as a solution to the VR issue but now they're looking like just another problem. You should have had some idea of the effects they would have on the existing game and systems to deal with those effects.

Going forward you need to be careful. Changes you make in the future need to be made with a full understanding of how they affect other parts of the game. As a standalone system champion points look fine but when plugged into the game it created this monster thread. You really need to focus on solutions that will stand the test of time and not just duct tape something in to keep us happy.

Final thought, don't let CP break non Vet PVP, please.

Bromburak

And this is why I'll never go back to Cyrodil and never get V or CP levels. There are too many folks like you there that just want to body slam other folks and not even give them a chance.

Yes, but this place is not an arena ...

Clones like him don't slam anyone in a disciplined group. So in this case you should ask yourself, why you wanna play solo in campaigns? Maybe the PvP objectives are not good enough? Its worth a thought because this is one of the core issues in Cyrodiil and not rare 1 vs. 1 situations.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

nimander99 wrote: »

I for one can't wait for more Vet levels and I love the Champ system as is even though I have 140 CP's I still actively faceroll suckers in Cyrodiil NO PROBLEM.

This is the last time I bump this post, we need to let this thread die.

Despite all your rage you are still just a rat in a cage....
or a hamster on a wheel


Grinding does not equal content or progression... I do not know how you people can be so accepting of such obvious contrivances.... even if you grind 24/7... you are still losing in this system... compared to one designed around FUN.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

No, its looking at a small collection of undersized trees and call them trees rather than a forest.

x -50% +20% is still -30% end of, no ifs, no buts, no further discussion required.

Can anyone think of anything more counter-productive to the core mechanisms of an MMORPG than penalising people for being in a group?

People complain that ESO is, in effect, a solo game with other players around you.

What do you expect when being grouped up confers an XP penalty? It makes no sense and is wholly indefensible.

And being in a group of 3+ has next to nothing to do with capability and everything to do with enjoying gaming with friends - penalising that is NEVER a good idea.

All The Best