The Day ESO Dies

lucian_banneb18_ESO

In my opinion ESO would need a serious ovehaul.

Take VR for instance. They're clearly a progression ontop of another progression. Then merge them. Make it Lev 70, even-up the levelling courve and stop there. This way you solve the itemization problem. Ofcourse there will be flaming and a new gear hunt, but it would get rid of a flawed system. You don't need to constantly raise levelcap in order for people to play the game for years. Just make the stuff ingame more entertaining. Add events (like invasions), different sets that make you change builds, put in competitive PvP (arenas, duels), player housing, guild keeps, aso.

Meanwhile, let the Champion system on, with an upwards courve - first skills easy & fast to get, and later skills much-much harder. Even seasonal CP limits unlocks could be made workable. This way people playing 2 hours a day would be able to be whithin 75-80% from the ones playing 8-10h/day. The latter would still be better, but they would not be a huge gap. Thus player skill could prevail.

Separately make all zones available to all players from the start. Keep them alliance based (if you're EP, most of the AD zone would be against you), but give the option of switching alliance allegiance anytime. Thus you would add ALOT of PvP zones, like ALL of them. Put in (like in WoW) a PvP flagged switch button whithin your first zones. Then merge all 1-70 xp within the zones. Such as an average of 10lvls/zone (1-50 in your alliance areas, 51-60 in Coldharbour and 61-70 in Craglorn. Keep Cyrodiil full lv. 70 and battlelevel ppl when going there. Add thematic Arenas in each zone to encourage PvP and competitive play.

Plus, add Dragons. Make them better than current city guards. Make them require a significant alliance effort to have them killed. Oh, what a day would it be for players just to start experience (terminal) dragon encounters without ZOS announcing it.
This would kick everyone's arse in the MMORPG community, it would be a great marketing move and would hook a huge number of players to ESO for years.

Ah well, that's my 2c.
/cheers

daemonios

Vizier wrote: »

I honestly couldn't care less about your concerns. That someone newer to the game has fewer CP is not only expected it's reasonable. When VR is finally removed from the game the only thing separating folks will be CP and NOT the vast gulf of V1-V14 soon to be V16 AND CP. With the diminishing return on CP folks will close the gap fast enough...IF the WTF Play the game. After a time the difference will be negligible since the guy with less CP will always get more % increases then the guy with more.

I honestly cannot understand how people defend the champion system instead of the VR level system. Let's do a bit of math.

A new player would need 12,750,000 XP to go from VR1 to VR16 (using the 850k XP per VR level that's going to be used in the next update). For the sake of comparison, let's assume the player grinds that XP, and that the grind nets 500k XP/hour (completely feasible today). It would take 25.5 hours to go from VR1 to VR16.

Now imagine the same new player trying to catch up with other players' CP. The lowest many long-time players have is 70 CP, which were awarded with the implementation of the Champion System. It takes 28,000,000 XP (at 400k XP per CP) to get there, or 56 hours, more than twice the time it takes to go from VR1-VR16. What was that you were saying about VR grinding being bad?

More realistically, many hardcore/competitive players are well into their 300s in terms of CP. I'm not even going to talk about those with 500+, which are also out there. Let's just take the 300 number - it takes 120,000,000 XP for a new player to get there, or 240 hours (after reaching VR1, of course).

So tell me, how is it preferable to have a system where it takes you 240 hours to catch up to competitive players preferable to one where it takes 25? Also, consider that while a new player is grinding his way to 300 CP, the 300 CP player will still be earning additional points. With the VR system, you would reach the top level and be on par with everyone else at top level until they raised the cap again.

And don't "diminishing-returns" me - by the time you get 300 CP you're far from seeing any kind of diminishing returns. You keep getting flat increases to your stats for each CP spent, and at 300 you'll still be unlocking extremely powerful passives (weap/spell crit, synergy ultimate generation, etc.).

I always thought that the Champion System was a huge mistake as a replacement for VR levels, even though it can be an interesting system in terms of character development. Its implementation has only confirmed my fears. The Champion System isn't a new, friendlier progression system. It's a way to keep you playing for 3600x400,000 XP.

AngryNord

lucian_banneb18_ESO wrote: »

Separately make all zones available to all players from the start. Keep them alliance based (if you're EP, most of the AD zone would be against you), but give the option of switching alliance allegiance anytime. Thus you would add ALOT of PvP zones, like ALL of them. Put in (like in WoW) a PvP flagged switch button whithin your first zones. Then merge all 1-70 xp within the zones. Such as an average of 10lvls/zone (1-50 in your alliance areas, 51-60 in Coldharbour and 61-70 in Craglorn. Keep Cyrodiil full lv. 70 and battlelevel ppl when going there. Add thematic Arenas in each zone to encourage PvP and competitive play.

Plus, add Dragons. Make them better than current city guards. Make them require a significant alliance effort to have them killed. Oh, what a day would it be for players just to start experience (terminal) dragon encounters without ZOS announcing it.
This would kick everyone's arse in the MMORPG community, it would be a great marketing move and would hook a huge number of players to ESO for years.

/cheers

No thanks.
1 - No-PvP flags only last until someone finds an exploit. I.e. a few hours. And then ZOS would take months to fix the exploit...

2 - dragons aren't active in this era.

e1team

daemonios wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

I honestly couldn't care less about your concerns. That someone newer to the game has fewer CP is not only expected it's reasonable. When VR is finally removed from the game the only thing separating folks will be CP and NOT the vast gulf of V1-V14 soon to be V16 AND CP. With the diminishing return on CP folks will close the gap fast enough...IF the WTF Play the game. After a time the difference will be negligible since the guy with less CP will always get more % increases then the guy with more.

I honestly cannot understand how people defend the champion system instead of the VR level system. Let's do a bit of math.

A new player would need 12,750,000 XP to go from VR1 to VR16 (using the 850k XP per VR level that's going to be used in the next update). For the sake of comparison, let's assume the player grinds that XP, and that the grind nets 500k XP/hour (completely feasible today). It would take 25.5 hours to go from VR1 to VR16.

Now imagine the same new player trying to catch up with other players' CP. The lowest many long-time players have is 70 CP, which were awarded with the implementation of the Champion System. It takes 28,000,000 XP (at 400k XP per CP) to get there, or 56 hours, more than twice the time it takes to go from VR1-VR16. What was that you were saying about VR grinding being bad?

More realistically, many hardcore/competitive players are well into their 300s in terms of CP. I'm not even going to talk about those with 500+, which are also out there. Let's just take the 300 number - it takes 120,000,000 XP for a new player to get there, or 240 hours (after reaching VR1, of course).

So tell me, how is it preferable to have a system where it takes you 240 hours to catch up to competitive players preferable to one where it takes 25? Also, consider that while a new player is grinding his way to 300 CP, the 300 CP player will still be earning additional points. With the VR system, you would reach the top level and be on par with everyone else at top level until they raised the cap again.

And don't "diminishing-returns" me - by the time you get 300 CP you're far from seeing any kind of diminishing returns. You keep getting flat increases to your stats for each CP spent, and at 300 you'll still be unlocking extremely powerful passives (weap/spell crit, synergy ultimate generation, etc.).

I always thought that the Champion System was a huge mistake as a replacement for VR levels, even though it can be an interesting system in terms of character development. Its implementation has only confirmed my fears. The Champion System isn't a new, friendlier progression system. It's a way to keep you playing for 3600x400,000 XP.

Who said it should be easy? Why should it be? Easy games are no fun. Yes it'll take more time but it'll also feel much more rewarding when you'll get there!
And you get THREE times more time to enjoy the game! What's the complaint?

daemonios

e1team wrote: »

Who said it should be easy? Why should it be? Easy games are no fun. Yes it'll take more time but it'll also feel much more rewarding when you'll get there!
And you get THREE times more time to enjoy the game! What's the complaint?

Did I use the word "easy" anywhere in my post? I'm not one of those who asked for veteran zones or some bosses to be nerfed because they couldn't handle them alone. Nor have I ever asked for XP boosts or nerfs. I was replying to a comment whose author speaks of the "the vast gulf of V1-V14", and I was demonstrating that his reasoning is nonsensical. There is a much wider gulf between 0-300CP than between Lvl1-VR16.

Kambo

You make some great points, ironically however ESO is still doing better work with content than WoW is right now.
Even though WoW has released content it has been very bad, i mean WoD is already over.
ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

RazzPitazz

LukeArayo wrote: »

You make some great points, ironically however ESO is still doing better work with content than WoW is right now.
Even though WoW has released content it has been very bad, i mean WoD is already over.
ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

Considering that ZOS has literally released no content aside from crown store items and their supposed in game competition, I'm going to say this statement is inaccurate.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Tors wrote: »

So in order to make my 4-5 Cp a day Ive rolled a Blue toon to take advantage of the buffs and better Cadwells gold grind zones.

4-5cp a day.....4-5cp A DAY!!

Gandrhulf_Harbard

LukeArayo wrote: »

ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

Really?

Which as the most Subs?

Which has the most players?

ZOS > Blizzard?

ROFLMFAO-Copter

All The Best

TheBonesXXX

Armitas wrote: »

The truth will not make any significant difference if it is that difficult to obtain. Individual perception is what will make the difference. You can't chase down every poster, or every player with the figures to give them the truth. People will go with their own perception unless shown otherwise, and the majority of the people cannot be reached that they may be shown.

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

I do not worry about people who do not understand mathematics or are not able to compute quantifiable data to support or not support a change such as Veteran Levels and Champion points, a part of me feels like people are just inconvenienced at the grind it takes. If the proof is there, tested, and verified then its just crying at that point.

Should we find out the gap between Champion Points and Veteran Levels is that mathematically different then I'm all for bringing them in line within each other; not significant nerfs, but scaled or "stat squished" appropriately.


--Again folks, this is about true lateral and vertical progression; as told through ESO mythos. Noticed that some people seem to forget or do not care about the story as it correlates with how progression should be handled.

Ebb and flow is important, to me it looks like from story mode,

Player goes through their faction story, beats the boss. Player then goes through Silver and Gold as a recap and begins lateral progression through the other two zones, hits V14; gears themselves up and enjoys current content as a true lateral ceiling while waiting for the next piece of vertical content to be released.

k2blader

LukeArayo wrote: »

You make some great points, ironically however ESO is still doing better work with content than WoW is right now.
Even though WoW has released content it has been very bad, i mean WoD is already over.
ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

I wonder which game is bringing in better profit. I don't think it's this one.

[edit]
And I dunno what you mean about new content. I haven't seen new content-- just content taken away. And a lot of unfixed bugs.

Attorneyatlawl

Faulgor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Visemere wrote: »

All i know is, levelling VR's takes too long.

Personally i want to see VR xp increased substantially, im only VR3 after a week, and im spending 5-6 hrs sometimes in a session... it shouldnt take that long.

And no, im not buying XP potions for money...

i dont know what the answer is, but i dont enjoy Veteran Levels at all as it stands, i feel like its another barrier between me and PvP if i dont level now, and get CP and VR levels ill be blown apart by higher rank players.

i just want to enjoy all facets of the game.

@Visemere just to let you know, they ARE increasing XP for the veteran areas with the next major update. You can see the percentages here
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190398/full-21th-eso-live-highlights/p1

for cadwells quests yes, but that increase doesnt ive heard apply to all quests in the zone?

The 20% increase in Craglorn really is worthless as well given that Craglorn suffered a 50% cut, and there's an XP reduction for being in a group.

All The Best

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

Even double exp in Public Dungeons will not make them viable. Currently, I get about as much from one VR4 overworld zombie as from two whole public dungeon mobs of the same level.
And delves are by definition are not Public Dungeons, I'm afraid. Although I'd like them very much to get an increase as well. Craglorn delves are nice.

To return to this... why I asked if you had read what you wrote was meant as a rhetorical question due to the self-contradiction .

You wrote:

1x World Mob worth of XP...

(when currently... you're asserting, that...)

...is equal to 2x Public Dungeon Mobs' worth of XP...

(and the next patch will turn each Public Dungeon Mob's XP to twice their current amount, or 2x.)

That cancels itself out. Throwing an arbitrary number value to illustrate this:

"I get 300 XP from a world monster, but it takes two of them to get the same because they're only giving me 150 XP each!"

100% increase on the 150 XP, makes it equal, because the result of doubling 150 is 300.

_______________

As an aside, it is worth noting that mechanically the game treats public dungeons and delves the same way and it does refer to them interchangably in some tooltips/descriptions/old loading screen tips. There is a technical distinction of "public dungeon" being supposed to be defined as the caves intended for soloing, and the "delves" that are supposed to be intended for groups, but there is no actual mechanical change that alters anything about this in-game as far as XP is concerned.

Your further reply quoting killing six "swarmer" monsters and comparing it to two "normal" monsters is comparing apples to oranges. "Swarmer" low hitpoint monster types give virtually no XP regardless of where they exist. "Normal" monsters, regardless of where they exist, give a base XP value, then altered depending on your level relative to theirs, and whether they are in the openw orld, a public dungeon/delve, or an instanced area. "Strong" monsters, which don't have extra "pips" around their default unit frame (health bar/etc.) give a higher base XP value, and "two pip" monsters give an even larger one. "Three pip" ones become, in many cases, immune to a large number or all of the major CC effects and are expected to be fought as bosses.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

That's missing the forest for the trees. Public dungeons are being doubled, alongside that. Craglorn has sixteen, if I recall, group delves that are instanced. Those are technically pub dungeons and presumably will be doubled, restoring their former numbers, and then being increased by 20%. And you gain a 5% automatic XP bonus for being in a duo. It's if you aren't capable enough to do the killing with two, that you begin to be penalized, getting about 1/3 less XP for adding a third player, and even less for a fourth . And @visemere, the XP potions are available in game inexpensively for gold. You don't ever have to spend a dime on them, and I don't plan to. I've been steadily increasing my stockpile just playing normally and not taking any real negative from doing so, due to how affordable they are.

No, its looking at a small collection of undersized trees and call them trees rather than a forest.

x -50% +20% is still -30% end of, no ifs, no buts, no further discussion required.

Can anyone think of anything more counter-productive to the core mechanisms of an MMORPG than penalising people for being in a group?

People complain that ESO is, in effect, a solo game with other players around you.

What do you expect when being grouped up confers an XP penalty? It makes no sense and is wholly indefensible.

And being in a group of 3+ has next to nothing to do with capability and everything to do with enjoying gaming with friends - penalising that is NEVER a good idea.

All The Best

None of that's true, though. x - 50%, and then doubling it again... brings it to the exact same amount it started at.

(Side-note: Even the example you gave actually isn't mathematically accurate, just to note: you're saying that halving something and then adding 20% to that halved value makes it "30% less than the original", which isn't factual. Your example comes out, given x being "150 XP", to 90 as the end result. The actual result of reducing 150 XP by 30% would bring you to 105 XP . Order of operations is an important thing !).

ESO feeling like a solo game has little to do with the grouping mechanics, and everything to do with the game difficulty not needing, outside of PVP, trials, and the upper-tier instanced veteran group dungeons (veteran City of Ash, and veteran Crypt of Hearts) more than two people to complete, other than convenience and speed. Add in the non-existence of community features such as nameplate and guild tag options, an activity/kill channel in Cyrodiil, or seeing who even healed you that ran by when you were about to die on a quest... and it feels extremely lifeless as everyone in town looks like an NPC and is unrecognizable for who they are. I've written about this for years at this point: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160517 being my newest thread regarding it, and being in my signature for a couple of months now.

You aren't penalized for duo'ing, and actually gain a 5% XP bonus. Trio'ing (3 people) then incurs a 1/3rd XP penalty from that increased number. The problem comes in at the point that there isn't anything much harder for the larger group to fight that makes it better than just playing with two for the purpose of XP gains. The design intent is to prevent you from simply overpowering solo-level content with a zerg and getting the full reward. The issue you're running into remains the same since launch, of there not being things worth using a larger-than-2-person group for there . For a brief time there was with Craglorn's release and areas like the Spellscar that some players needed three or four people to kill effectively, while better players could solo or duo it for increases experience gains... and the magical anomalies/open-world boss encounters that people grouped up for to run around doing, socializing, and having fun while not suffering a huge penalty for because not only did they beat them more quickly and effectively by doing that, they also out-earned what they could have gone off and done on their own solo.

Phinix1

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

None of that's true, though. x - 50%, and then doubling it again... brings it to the exact same amount it started at.

(Side-note: Even the example you gave actually isn't mathematically accurate, just to note: you're saying that halving something and then adding 20% to that halved value makes it "30% less than the original", which isn't factual. Your example comes out, given x being "150 XP", to 90 as the end result. The actual result of reducing 150 XP by 30% would bring you to 105 XP . Order of operations is an important thing !).

They are NOT doubling it, they are adding 20%.

Simple maths is simple.

100 - 50% = 50.

50+20% = 70.

70 is 30% lower than 100.

So I was totally correct.

But then you knew this, you just wanted to argue the point to defend the indefensible.

Oh, hang on, you're a CA... ...says it all.

All The Best

Attorneyatlawl

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

None of that's true, though. x - 50%, and then doubling it again... brings it to the exact same amount it started at.

(Side-note: Even the example you gave actually isn't mathematically accurate, just to note: you're saying that halving something and then adding 20% to that halved value makes it "30% less than the original", which isn't factual. Your example comes out, given x being "150 XP", to 90 as the end result. The actual result of reducing 150 XP by 30% would bring you to 105 XP . Order of operations is an important thing !).

They are NOT doubling it, they are adding 20%.

Simple maths is simple.

100 - 50% = 50.

50+20% = 70.

70 is 30% lower than 100.

So I was totally correct.

But then you knew this, you just wanted to argue the point to defend the indefensible.

Oh, hang on, you're a CA... ...says it all.

All The Best

That again, is completely incorrect. Public Dungeons are going up by 100%, or double. Your math is wrong in your post even... 50 plus 20% of 50 is 60. Not 70 . Please, spend some time reading views that don't agree completely with your own, and consider them before rushing to reply.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

That again, is completely incorrect. Public Dungeons are going up by 100%, or double. Your math is wrong in your post even... 50 plus 20% of 50 is 60. Not 70 . Please, spend some time reading views that don't agree completely with your own, and consider them before rushing to reply.

Aye, made an error with the maths there, my apologies: for the record I am still in the BC phase of the day - Before Coffee.

However ONLY Public Dungeons are being boosted by 100%.

Craglorn landscape will have had -50% then +20%.

Which still makes it less than 100% - added to the existing penalty for grouping 3+ on landscape the game is making it less likely for people to group up.

It makes no sense.

All The Best

Attorneyatlawl

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

That's once someone is at 3600cp. The number of people at that amount right now... is zero. Literally. No one in the entire game of millions of players has reached that, even botters and exploiters. So that's really a disingenuous argument. Once a handful of people reach it, your likelihood of encountering them is nearly zero, and the likelihood of them in a 30-person fight in Cyrodiil changing the outcome of that entire battle because their individual character has earned a 10% or 20% higher, mathematical advantage than you have, is virtually none unless there was already a large skill gap... in which case, they would have done it anyways .

The actual argument would be, right now, an average of around 140-180 champion rank in the general populace, versus the higher end of most hardcore players at around 300-350, a small percentage at 400 or so, and then the, if I had to guess, single-digit number of people nearly-definitely violating the games' ToS that are in the 1000+ range, and if they aren't playing by the rules should and will be banned at some point.

Extrapolating that, by the time 10% of the playerbase hits champion rank 3600 to get all of those shiny, 25% values... the majority will be closer to around champion ranks 1400-1700. They will have the majority of the most combat-impacting passives available at 25%, and the rest can be brought up to around half of what the max would be. Instead of a 25% cheaper roll dodge... they would have a 13% cheaper one.

They'd still have 25% of the critical portion of their damage boosted while you would have 13% if you were on the average rate of play in the playerbase (it isn't a full critical hit boost, by the way... but this just goes back to the whole "No one really seems to be discussing the facts here, and instead are just posting sensationally" topic again. If I crit for 1500 damage and my base damage is 1000 (which aligns with the standard, 50% critical damage modifier), my new critical hit total after amplifying the 25% of the 500 critical damage portion of the attack becomes, instead of 1500, 1625 ultimately. Someone with 13% in the passive, would hit if otherwise identical for 1565. That's a hardly-earth-shattering increase difference of under four percent damage dealt for a full hundred champion points.

______________
"Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception."
Already addressed, and as I suggested in my thread about the topic discussing the facts, rather than just jumping to a conclusion, XP gains need to be balanced across the game better. Grinding should be a great way to earn champion XP, but so should PVP, and Trials.

Attorneyatlawl

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

That again, is completely incorrect. Public Dungeons are going up by 100%, or double. Your math is wrong in your post even... 50 plus 20% of 50 is 60. Not 70 . Please, spend some time reading views that don't agree completely with your own, and consider them before rushing to reply.

Aye, made an error with the maths there, my apologies: for the record I am still in the BC phase of the day - Before Coffee.

However ONLY Public Dungeons are being boosted by 100%.

Craglorn landscape will have had -50% then +20%.

Which still makes it less than 100% - added to the existing penalty for grouping 3+ on landscape the game is making it less likely for people to group up.

It makes no sense.

All The Best

Soloable landscape mobs shouldn't reward as much as instanced group dungeons or public dungeon delves, or PVP. They're extremely easy in comparison. It makes sense to me, at least, that it is that way in a massively multiplayer online game, that Craglorn or any other overworld zone monsters that will die inside of 5 seconds to a single player, don't give top-tier rewards.

The problem stems from the lack of challenges, in the current game version, for people to want to group up to tackle to earn XP. PVP gives virtually none. Public dungeons and delves currently give a very low yield, and don't have enough potential to be worth it at the current XP you gain per kill. Veteran Dragonstar Arena gives a reasonable return, in a good group, of well over a champion level per hour... but most can't pull that off. So what is left that is accessible right now for the bulk of players to do, that gives good champion XP? Grinding. That shouldn't be the case. Everything else should be brought upwards to it, below it a bit or above it some, depending on how tough it is to do.

EDIT:

P.S. The "BC" stage of the day can be very intrusive, indeed . I completely understand... waking up makes math a lot harder .

EDIT 2: Also, @Gandrhulf_Harbard, just to touch on the "CA" thing. That isn't a ZOS-chosen thing. It's driven primarily by community nominations, in other words, other players taking the time to email, write, or otherwise, suggesting someone is helpful, knowledgeable, trustworthy, or all of those. It's not something that Zenimax just goes around on the forums looking for yes-men to give a title to . You can see how that system works, here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/173260/esotu-community-ambassador-program/p1

If you dig into my posting history... I'm arguably one of the biggest critics of ESO, even though I love the game. I have slammed them time and again, constructively and with reasonable arguments rather than simply saying "This sucks!" (for the most part , look around and you'd find one or two examples where I didn't really look at how I'd phrased what I was trying to say very well... ). The ones I've been the most vocal about include the User Interface (UI), reward systems at some points in the game's lifespan, communication frequency, and lowering overall game difficulty. Those aren't the only ones, though, either. I was extremely, especially outspoken as to the idea of Crown Store-only experience boosters... too much so, really. In the end they did the right thing there in response to the community, and added an in-game way to get them at a low in-game cost, prior to introducing those, making the real-money ones a convenience rather than a must and not impacting people using them frequently in-game much at all due to the affordability of those versions.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

That's once someone is at 3600cp. The number of people at that amount right now... is zero. Literally. No one in the entire game of millions of players has reached that, even botters and exploiters. So that's really a disingenuous argument. Once a handful of people reach it, your likelihood of encountering them is nearly zero, and the likelihood of them in a 30-person fight in Cyrodiil changing the outcome of that entire battle because their individual character has earned a 10% or 20% higher, mathematical advantage than you have, is virtually none unless there was already a large skill gap... in which case, they would have done it anyways .

The actual argument would be, right now, an average of around 140-180 champion rank in the general populace, versus the higher end of most hardcore players at around 300-350, a small percentage at 400 or so, and then the, if I had to guess, single-digit number of people nearly-definitely violating the games' ToS that are in the 1000+ range, and if they aren't playing by the rules should and will be banned at some point.

Extrapolating that, by the time 10% of the playerbase hits champion rank 3600 to get all of those shiny, 25% values... the majority will be closer to around champion ranks 1400-1700. They will have the majority of the most combat-impacting passives available at 25%, and the rest can be brought up to around half of what the max would be. Instead of a 25% cheaper roll dodge... they would have a 13% cheaper one.

They'd still have 25% of the critical portion of their damage boosted while you would have 13% if you were on the average rate of play in the playerbase (it isn't a full critical hit boost, by the way... but this just goes back to the whole "No one really seems to be discussing the facts here, and instead are just posting sensationally" topic again. If I crit for 1500 damage and my base damage is 1000 (which aligns with the standard, 50% critical damage modifier), my new critical hit total after amplifying the 25% of the 500 critical damage portion of the attack becomes, instead of 1500, 1625 ultimately. Someone with 13% in the passive, would hit if otherwise identical for 1565. That's a hardly-earth-shattering increase difference of under four percent damage dealt for a full hundred champion points.

______________
"Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception."
Already addressed, and as I suggested in my thread about the topic discussing the facts, rather than just jumping to a conclusion, XP gains need to be balanced across the game better. Grinding should be a great way to earn champion XP, but so should PVP, and Trials.

Grinding should burn in brimstone and hellfire, as should VR levels AND CP

It is a worthless waste of EVERYONE's time... even the person who does end up on top.

We COULD have new skills, new mechanics, and new ways to play... OR you can continue to be content being a rat on the wheel.

Attorneyatlawl

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

That's once someone is at 3600cp. The number of people at that amount right now... is zero. Literally. No one in the entire game of millions of players has reached that, even botters and exploiters. So that's really a disingenuous argument. Once a handful of people reach it, your likelihood of encountering them is nearly zero, and the likelihood of them in a 30-person fight in Cyrodiil changing the outcome of that entire battle because their individual character has earned a 10% or 20% higher, mathematical advantage than you have, is virtually none unless there was already a large skill gap... in which case, they would have done it anyways .

The actual argument would be, right now, an average of around 140-180 champion rank in the general populace, versus the higher end of most hardcore players at around 300-350, a small percentage at 400 or so, and then the, if I had to guess, single-digit number of people nearly-definitely violating the games' ToS that are in the 1000+ range, and if they aren't playing by the rules should and will be banned at some point.

Extrapolating that, by the time 10% of the playerbase hits champion rank 3600 to get all of those shiny, 25% values... the majority will be closer to around champion ranks 1400-1700. They will have the majority of the most combat-impacting passives available at 25%, and the rest can be brought up to around half of what the max would be. Instead of a 25% cheaper roll dodge... they would have a 13% cheaper one.

They'd still have 25% of the critical portion of their damage boosted while you would have 13% if you were on the average rate of play in the playerbase (it isn't a full critical hit boost, by the way... but this just goes back to the whole "No one really seems to be discussing the facts here, and instead are just posting sensationally" topic again. If I crit for 1500 damage and my base damage is 1000 (which aligns with the standard, 50% critical damage modifier), my new critical hit total after amplifying the 25% of the 500 critical damage portion of the attack becomes, instead of 1500, 1625 ultimately. Someone with 13% in the passive, would hit if otherwise identical for 1565. That's a hardly-earth-shattering increase difference of under four percent damage dealt for a full hundred champion points.

______________
"Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception."
Already addressed, and as I suggested in my thread about the topic discussing the facts, rather than just jumping to a conclusion, XP gains need to be balanced across the game better. Grinding should be a great way to earn champion XP, but so should PVP, and Trials.

Grinding should burn in brimstone and hellfire, as should VR levels AND CP

It is a worthless waste of EVERYONE's time... even the person who does end up on top.

We COULD have new skills, new mechanics, and new ways to play... OR you can continue to be content being a rat on the wheel.

You do know, some people enjoy grinding. It's a nice way to zone out to music late at night while relaxing. Grinding itself is not a problem in any way, shape, or form. That other stuff isn't a good way to earn the new skills and ways to play (which some of the champion passives do create by virtue of making otherwise-unviable ideas become strong enough to be useful), is the problem. You should earn strong progression from doing anything you enjoy that has a reasonable difficulty factor to it, such as Trials or PVP, or group dungeons, too. Grinding needs to stay as a viable and good XP source. But everything else needs to be brought up.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

That's once someone is at 3600cp. The number of people at that amount right now... is zero. Literally. No one in the entire game of millions of players has reached that, even botters and exploiters. So that's really a disingenuous argument. Once a handful of people reach it, your likelihood of encountering them is nearly zero, and the likelihood of them in a 30-person fight in Cyrodiil changing the outcome of that entire battle because their individual character has earned a 10% or 20% higher, mathematical advantage than you have, is virtually none unless there was already a large skill gap... in which case, they would have done it anyways .

The actual argument would be, right now, an average of around 140-180 champion rank in the general populace, versus the higher end of most hardcore players at around 300-350, a small percentage at 400 or so, and then the, if I had to guess, single-digit number of people nearly-definitely violating the games' ToS that are in the 1000+ range, and if they aren't playing by the rules should and will be banned at some point.

Extrapolating that, by the time 10% of the playerbase hits champion rank 3600 to get all of those shiny, 25% values... the majority will be closer to around champion ranks 1400-1700. They will have the majority of the most combat-impacting passives available at 25%, and the rest can be brought up to around half of what the max would be. Instead of a 25% cheaper roll dodge... they would have a 13% cheaper one.

They'd still have 25% of the critical portion of their damage boosted while you would have 13% if you were on the average rate of play in the playerbase (it isn't a full critical hit boost, by the way... but this just goes back to the whole "No one really seems to be discussing the facts here, and instead are just posting sensationally" topic again. If I crit for 1500 damage and my base damage is 1000 (which aligns with the standard, 50% critical damage modifier), my new critical hit total after amplifying the 25% of the 500 critical damage portion of the attack becomes, instead of 1500, 1625 ultimately. Someone with 13% in the passive, would hit if otherwise identical for 1565. That's a hardly-earth-shattering increase difference of under four percent damage dealt for a full hundred champion points.

______________
"Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception."
Already addressed, and as I suggested in my thread about the topic discussing the facts, rather than just jumping to a conclusion, XP gains need to be balanced across the game better. Grinding should be a great way to earn champion XP, but so should PVP, and Trials.

Grinding should burn in brimstone and hellfire, as should VR levels AND CP

It is a worthless waste of EVERYONE's time... even the person who does end up on top.

We COULD have new skills, new mechanics, and new ways to play... OR you can continue to be content being a rat on the wheel.

You do know, some people enjoy grinding. It's a nice way to zone out to music late at night while relaxing. Grinding itself is not a problem in any way, shape, or form. That other stuff isn't a good way to earn the new skills and ways to play (which some of the champion passives do create by virtue of making otherwise-unviable ideas become strong enough to be useful), is the problem. You should earn strong progression from doing anything you enjoy that has a reasonable difficulty factor to it, such as Trials or PVP, or group dungeons, too. Grinding needs to stay as a viable and good XP source. But everything else needs to be brought up.

Some people enjoy cutting themselves.... these things should not be encouraged

Phinix1

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

That's once someone is at 3600cp. The number of people at that amount right now... is zero. Literally. No one in the entire game of millions of players has reached that, even botters and exploiters. So that's really a disingenuous argument.

Not at all. 25% requires full 100/100 in that boost. So, add up the hundreds. Attainable with 800-900 CP. Many already have this.

The CP gap is not something that will be a problem "sometime down the road" (like climate change lol), it is a problem RIGHT NOW. Upping the XP for other activities is nice, but does NOTHING to prevent fair and balanced competition from being utterly destroyed by this.

A point no one has addressed: Most grinders will have the vast majority of quests incomplete, since they ran the wheel to v14. That means the grinders already miles ahead in CP will benefit the most from increased quest XP, pulling even farther ahead!

Putting CAPS on the amount of CP you can get in a "season" combined with increased Enlightenment per day the farther you are from the current cap is the only way to fix this.

Probably the most disturbing part about all this is how simple it is to fix.

I'm honestly not sure what ZOS is thinking.

Zlater

I return a few days later to 34 pages!!! it's pretty hard for this to not make ZOS go "hmm..."

Attorneyatlawl

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

That's once someone is at 3600cp. The number of people at that amount right now... is zero. Literally. No one in the entire game of millions of players has reached that, even botters and exploiters. So that's really a disingenuous argument. Once a handful of people reach it, your likelihood of encountering them is nearly zero, and the likelihood of them in a 30-person fight in Cyrodiil changing the outcome of that entire battle because their individual character has earned a 10% or 20% higher, mathematical advantage than you have, is virtually none unless there was already a large skill gap... in which case, they would have done it anyways .

The actual argument would be, right now, an average of around 140-180 champion rank in the general populace, versus the higher end of most hardcore players at around 300-350, a small percentage at 400 or so, and then the, if I had to guess, single-digit number of people nearly-definitely violating the games' ToS that are in the 1000+ range, and if they aren't playing by the rules should and will be banned at some point.

Extrapolating that, by the time 10% of the playerbase hits champion rank 3600 to get all of those shiny, 25% values... the majority will be closer to around champion ranks 1400-1700. They will have the majority of the most combat-impacting passives available at 25%, and the rest can be brought up to around half of what the max would be. Instead of a 25% cheaper roll dodge... they would have a 13% cheaper one.

They'd still have 25% of the critical portion of their damage boosted while you would have 13% if you were on the average rate of play in the playerbase (it isn't a full critical hit boost, by the way... but this just goes back to the whole "No one really seems to be discussing the facts here, and instead are just posting sensationally" topic again. If I crit for 1500 damage and my base damage is 1000 (which aligns with the standard, 50% critical damage modifier), my new critical hit total after amplifying the 25% of the 500 critical damage portion of the attack becomes, instead of 1500, 1625 ultimately. Someone with 13% in the passive, would hit if otherwise identical for 1565. That's a hardly-earth-shattering increase difference of under four percent damage dealt for a full hundred champion points.

______________
"Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception."
Already addressed, and as I suggested in my thread about the topic discussing the facts, rather than just jumping to a conclusion, XP gains need to be balanced across the game better. Grinding should be a great way to earn champion XP, but so should PVP, and Trials.

Grinding should burn in brimstone and hellfire, as should VR levels AND CP

It is a worthless waste of EVERYONE's time... even the person who does end up on top.

We COULD have new skills, new mechanics, and new ways to play... OR you can continue to be content being a rat on the wheel.

You do know, some people enjoy grinding. It's a nice way to zone out to music late at night while relaxing. Grinding itself is not a problem in any way, shape, or form. That other stuff isn't a good way to earn the new skills and ways to play (which some of the champion passives do create by virtue of making otherwise-unviable ideas become strong enough to be useful), is the problem. You should earn strong progression from doing anything you enjoy that has a reasonable difficulty factor to it, such as Trials or PVP, or group dungeons, too. Grinding needs to stay as a viable and good XP source. But everything else needs to be brought up.

Some people enjoy cutting themselves.... these things should not be encouraged

That's an absurd comparison, and very disrespectful in comparing a real-life problem with a fun videogame activity, honestly. Someone suffering from issues and harming themselves, be it from a mental illness, depression, disabilities, or other problems, isn't comparable to playing a videogame to relax. One is healthy... the other isn't.

SorataArisugawa

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

[..]

EDIT:

P.S. The "BC" stage of the day can be very intrusive, indeed . I completely understand... waking up makes math a lot harder .
[..]

Congratulations! You accidential found the essence of math!

Attorneyatlawl

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.

• 25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.
• 25% more damage from weapons.
• 25% more critical damage.
• 25% stronger shields.
• 25% more resistant to elemental damage.
• 25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.
• 25% cheaper roll/break free.
• 25% more magic/stamina regen.
• 25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.
• etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

That's once someone is at 3600cp. The number of people at that amount right now... is zero. Literally. No one in the entire game of millions of players has reached that, even botters and exploiters. So that's really a disingenuous argument.

Not at all. 25% requires full 100/100 in that boost. So, add up the hundreds. Attainable with 800-900 CP. Many already have this.

The CP gap is not something that will be a problem "sometime down the road" (like climate change lol), it is a problem RIGHT NOW. Upping the XP for other activities is nice, but does NOTHING to prevent fair and balanced competition from being utterly destroyed by this.

A point no one has addressed: Most grinders will have the vast majority of quests incomplete, since they ran the wheel of to v14. That means the grinders already miles ahead in CP will benefit the most from increased quest XP, pulling even farther ahead!

Putting CAPS on the amount of CP you can get in a "season" combined with increased Enlightenment per day the farther you are from the current cap is the only way to fix this.

Probably the most disturbing part about all this is how simple it is to fix.

I'm honestly not sure what ZOS is thinking.

There are virtually no players with 800-900 CP right now. I have no idea where you got that idea... but it's absolutely wrong. With 900 CP, you can place, 300 champion points in each colored section of the wheel, maxing three out of twelve passives. Except due to inherent relative diminishment and the smaller artificial curve factor applied... let's trot out this chart again...



It'd be silly to, unless aiming to specialize a niche, to invest 100 points in just three of those passives per section, for the most raw character power gain. Look at the difference between having 50 and 100 in the various scaling groups, there. . Proportionally, regardless of the comparison of champion point totals, the gains get smaller and smaller relatively, the more you earn, and people with lower than yourself will gain the majority of the same power unless they have barely played and only earned a minimal amount, in which case gear and even character levels will be a much bigger issue for them.

The current comparison is actually in-line with around 140-170 champion points, versus the higher crust of players sporting 300-350 and a very small number with 400-425. There may indeed be a double-digit number of outliers who legitimately obtained higher amounts in a game with millions... yes, that is millions, of players. It would be silly to discard that is likely, but no one is able to grind, unless they are not human, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, on their own . Repeating the same old claims of "many already have quadruple the amount of champion points the average active player does!" isn't going to make it true . By definition, even, that contradicts itself: if many or most have something... that makes it the norm.

And as I said... grinding shouldn't be the only strong way to earn experience. Everything else, be it PVP, instanced group dungeons, raids, or otherwise, should be brought up to also do that. If your problem is with grinding... then I don't think anyone's argued that nothing else should be good.

Attorneyatlawl

Zlater wrote: »

I return a few days later to 34 pages!!! it's pretty hard for this to not make ZOS go "hmm..."

What do you think happens when The New York Times has a headline saying "DEATH AND DESTRUCTION FROM MURDEROUS RAMPAGE!" and runs on about how some incredible number of people were killed, never mentioning how many or whether there's still a threat... when the truth is published under a title of "Serial Killer Prison Escapee Kills Two In Manhattan" and advises that the murderer has been caught and put back in jail already? One gets page hits and speculation with tons of comments, ... while the other doesn't attract as much attention. The amount of posts in any single thread doesn't mean a whole lot as to its merits, alone.

Phinix1

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

...

Just a couple observations.

That chart, while on the surface appearing to make a legitimate argument for diminishing returns, fails to account for the fact that those 9 skills I mentioned are really the only ones that matter in terms of raw power and survivability. They are the ones everyone goes for. Everything else is more or less "fluff."

It also fails to account for passives which are unlocked at 75+ in each constellation, many of which are VERY powerful. Having multiple of these WILL make a huge difference. These "core" bonuses are spread out across all three trees, thus enabling multiple top-level bonuses at relatively low CP levels (400+).

All of this is really a moot point however, as it is arguing semantics over when the problem will REALLY be a problem. Once people have 500+ points they can max out most of the core abilities and hit whatever "soft cap" of diminishing returns feels comfortable in the rest.

As others have pointed out (too tired to dig up the numbers), the bulk of the CP power is achieved by around 600-800 CP.

Even though we have maniac 24/7 grinders (and people DO pay friends to play their accounts while they sleep/work), the average player with 2-3 hours a day to invest won't hit that level until some time NEXT YEAR.

I believe that is an unacceptable time to wait for any semblance of a balanced PVP experience and by then, we likely WILL see grinders with 3600 CP. Certainly with the 900 required to fully cap at 100/100 (25%) all of the core boosts I posted.

The need for season caps and Enlightenment boosts is real.

Of course the people desperate enough for an unfair advantage that they would grind that wheel or pay real money for others do it for them will cry about you taking their steroids away.

Is this the Olympic standard, or Detroit street fighting?

eventide03b14a_ESO

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.

Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.

I have to agree. Another important point that is typically overlooked is that you should, and will be, killing a lot of mobs as you move through questing areas completing those quests. I can't think of any single quest that would normally take 20 minutes as you plow through the zones if trying to quest grind. Simply calling out the XP you earn on a turn-in sidesteps the issue of XP/hour, which is the right yardstick for that discussion, as you mentioned.

Beefing up the base quest XP (that then gets raised by XP potions, the subscription bonus (if subscribed), etc.) adds a decent raise in your XP/hour. Most games, however, don't reach the best XP when questing by dodging agro and killing the minimum amount of mobs in your path; generally, you're best off killing as many as humanly possible while minimizing the extra travel distance and speed impact on your route as a whole.

For example, stopping entirely to go hunt one tiger hiding under a tree 20 feet away... not smart. Nuking a tiger 5 feet ahead of you as you approach, without even needing to turn off the way you were going and not even stopping other than to quickly grab the loot off of it... is smart. .

Rosveen wrote: »

I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*

Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.

Thank you, and especially moreso for understanding that just because people don't have the same point of view, their thoughts aren't automatically invalidated. Even when I don't agree with what someone's saying... I put forth an effort to try to at least get where they're coming from. Regardless if I still completely disagree at that point, I've learned something in doing so.

Now, I do absolutely, however, agree with you on the accessibility front. I hate doing this, but it would basically just be paraphrasing myself, not to just quote it. This isn't a difficult problem to address, in my opinion, and is being extremely overcomplicated in most of the discussions I've been reading on the forums here, and elsewhere. Here's how I think it breaks down, and how they can fairly keep it in check... numbers, of course, can always be tweaked .

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

Wow has lockout timers. ESO has RNG (random drop chances). Both result in the same statistical loot distribution, over time, and are different ways of doing the same thing but with less player annoyance by being strictly forbidden to play that content during a lockout.

Wow has new gear that immediately makes everything else you've ever done in the game or obtained for equipment obsolete and essentially worthless. ESO has beyond-extremely minor power increases on gear, with the changes providing more horizontal (different, but not numerically stronger) progression availability through new set bonus types, skills, and other facets.

Wow immediately sets everyone back to square one. It then requires everyone to start back up from scratch, repeating the same thing as the prior time period where top-end progression players speed through and gain their old power gap back in short order, while less competitive players are left in the dust and unable to in any way, shape, or form, including even being carried and playing a ludicrous amount of time per day, catch up if they didn't do it from the start. ESO provides such a small amount of extra raw power on the equipment that it could be considered zero statistically (see the math below).

The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches over time.

For now we could have them say, "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on, which would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above. Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses". Doing this, quicker players get to stay ahead for their efforts, but it curbs how extreme the differences in raw character power can ever reach.

Look I just want to know if you actually have some sort of insight or access that we don't. I thought that was the whole point. Your opinion is meaningless to me. I want answers from the devs.

And your opinion is probably meaningless to anyone who reads this ^^

Being mean to Miss Bizz is unacceptable. Go find a different game to play if this one is making you so angry.

Nobody was being mean. I asked a direct question. Why raise the cap is they are removing the vet ranks. It's absolutely idiotic. And you don't get to tell me what I can use my money for even if it's to pay for something that makes me angry. Sorry if the community ambassadors are useless. It wasn't my hairbrain idea to have them.

eventide03b14a_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey everyone, just a heads up that we are internally discussing your concerns (we've been reading them) -- we posted this in another thread, but it's worth repeating.

We're currently looking into ways we can help those new to the Champion System catch up a bit, and also decrease the gap between those who are just starting out and those who have accumulated a ton of points. Once we have a plan scoped out a bit more, we will be sharing it and looking to get everyone's thoughts.

What about the rationality of the vet ranks? Are you still removing them or are you quietly going to hope we just forgot?